Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:38 AM - Re: Regarding Europa Lists NACA vents (KarkelB@aol.com)
2. 03:48 AM - Re: New EFIS (KarkelB@aol.com)
3. 04:50 AM - Re: naca vents (James Nelson)
4. 04:50 AM - Re: Fuel filler (James Nelson)
5. 04:50 AM - Re: Fuel filler (James Nelson)
6. 04:50 AM - Re: Fuel filler (James Nelson)
7. 05:39 AM - Europa List: naca vents (Dave_Miller@ca.cgugroup.com)
8. 05:50 AM - Company bashing (Fergus Kyle)
9. 05:53 AM - Rob Housman & fuel filler (Fergus Kyle)
10. 05:55 AM - Re: Door Gas Strut Mod. (tom)
11. 06:10 AM - Re: Regarding Europa Lists NACA vents (irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu)
12. 06:49 AM - Re: Re: New EFIS (John & Paddy Wigney)
13. 06:55 AM - Re: Re: New EFIS (Shaun Simpkins)
14. 06:57 AM - Honda/Continental ! (Shaun Simpkins)
15. 07:22 AM - Re: Re: New EFIS (DJA727@aol.com)
16. 08:19 AM - Sequencing of pages (Jeff Roberts)
17. 08:40 AM - Re: Fuel filler (Rob Housman)
18. 10:38 AM - Re: Door Gas Strut Mod. (Dale Hetrick)
19. 10:59 AM - Re: Door Gas Strut Mod. (Gerry Holland)
20. 02:15 PM - Re: naca vents (hedley brown)
21. 02:26 PM - Re: naca vents (R.C.Harrison)
22. 02:41 PM - Re: naca vents (nigelcharles@tiscali.co.uk)
23. 02:43 PM - Re: Re: New EFIS (Joseph J. Like)
24. 03:39 PM - Re: Door Gas Strut Mod. (James Nelson)
25. 04:20 PM - Re: naca vents (KarkelB@aol.com)
26. 09:38 PM - Re: Door Gas Strut Mod. (Dale Hetrick)
27. 09:38 PM - Re: Door Gas Strut Mod. (Dale Hetrick)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Regarding Europa Lists NACA vents |
--> Europa-List message posted by: KarkelB@aol.com
.....that right,i'm sure all those planes flying were built from the same
build manual. Something has got to be right about it.
karim.
# 420
Message 2
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--> Europa-List message posted by: KarkelB@aol.com
Folks,
take a look at the new grand rapids technologies EFIS. Fine piece it
looks.
# 420
Message 3
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--> Europa-List message posted by: James Nelson <europajim@juno.com>
Richard,
Where did you get the spare parts to fix your nac vent?? I also
had a vent stud break off so I want to fix it. At this point, I have put
the ramp back into the unit and used some blue foam to hold it closed.
Fortunatly, I have a second vent on that side that uses the Van's A/C
unit. I then put it into the lower cowl and ducted it to the firewall
and thru the panel (created a new closed area just below) and out thru an
eye ball vent. It works great.
Jim Nelson
N15JN
Message 4
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--> Europa-List message posted by: James Nelson <europajim@juno.com>
Ferg,
I have the aluminum tube to replace the rubber angle tube on the
fuel filler. I used the PVC tubing to attach each end of the alum.tube.
I've had it in operation for 6 months now with no indication of a
problem. Even if I have to replace it once a year, its worth it to not
have fuel smells in the cockpit.
Jim Nelson
N15JN
Message 5
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--> Europa-List message posted by: James Nelson <europajim@juno.com>
Bruce,
Any thin aluminum tubing works fine. The thinner the better as
it all counts up in weight. You can get some tubing from Aircraft Spruce
or your local aluminum welding shop. Just get about 18" of it and have
it cut to match the angle on the rubber unit. Leave each leg longer than
the rubber unit. Then, cut each leg shorter by about 1/4" with each cut.
Do this untill you can fit the alum. unit in position with about 3/8"
gap on each end of the alum. tube. This gap is covered with a 3" length
of PVC clear tubing with screw clamps to seal them. If you want to get
fancy, get the aluminum tubing grooved on each end with three "V"
grooves. These grooves help to seal the PVC tubing to the alum. tubing.
Get it grooved before you weld the angle together (obvious).
Jim Nelson
N15JN
Message 6
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--> Europa-List message posted by: James Nelson <europajim@juno.com>
Ferg,
I have the aluminum angle piece with PVC tubing at each end to hook up
the system. I've run auto fuel for 6 months now with no effects to the
PVC.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Europa List: naca vents |
03/07/2003 08:39:23 AM,
Serialize complete at 03/07/2003 08:39:23 AM
--> Europa-List message posted by: Dave_Miller@ca.cgugroup.com
I'm one of the lucky ones, my naca vents broke while I was twiddling with
them prior to fitting.
In one of the Tony Bingelis books there's a suggestion for naca vents. I
made a plug, basically the same shape as the vents provided, cut a
matching hole in the fuselage to insert it, then glassed over it.
Added blue foam at the back and covered this as well, when the layup cured
dug out the foam, the tunnel opening can then be closed with a slider or
flap
Dave A061
Message 8
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
Cheers,
I have a Classic model mono, and have amended it by XS cockpit,
AUW mod, long tailwheel and several other improvements. I was not equipped
with NACA vents. There are items (between the two models) which I found
confusing and over which I fumed. As well, there have come difficulties in
fabricating items which I believed were little trouble but which proved
complicated.
However we are building aircraft here. If we have differences
with Europa, let's solve them privately:
(a) we may be the only ones involved;
(b) the solution should always begin with Europa (fair shake);
(c) public complaint serves who?;
(d) how much better are other kits?
As for the immense case of faulty NACA vents -
[1] I built my own from a Bingelis notebook;
[2] the vents appear to me to be a subcontract item (see ACS catalog);
[3] the ratio w/l seems excessive if the formula is correct;
[4] siting is 50% of the success.
Let's cool it. This design is excellent - look at the
results......
Ferg
Message 9
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| Subject: | Rob Housman & fuel filler |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
Rob,
Your address came back and bit me, so I want to thank you here
for your expertise and time taken. There are a number of replies - thank you
too! - and I will sum up shortly.
Ferg
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Door Gas Strut Mod. |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "tom" <beecho@fix.net>
Gary and William
The door deformation is due to plastic movement from the force of the
springs acting over a long period of time. I would think that an opposite
force would have a similar and correcting change in the door shape. Can you
not use weights or a strap to apply such a force whenever the aircraft is
not flying?
Tom XS Mono Jabiru N96V
----- Original Message -----
From: "William Mills" <combined.merchants@virgin.net>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Door Gas Strut Mod.
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "William Mills"
<combined.merchants@virgin.net>
>
> Hi Andy,
> Does the Factory have any ideas how we can best correct the distortion to
> the door corners?
> Regards,
> William
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "STOUT, GARRY V, CSFF2" <garrys@att.com>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Door Gas Strut Mod.
>
>
> > --> Europa-List message posted by: "STOUT, GARRY V, CSFF2"
> <garrys@att.com>
> >
> > All replies appear to be valid approaches in a "new construction"
> > environment. As the proud owner of a 4 year old Europa, I now find that
> > the top rear corner of my doors has grown to a 1/2 inch gap (proud of
> > the fuselage for my Brit friends). Does anyone have any experience with
> > "reversing" the distortion of the doors? Some non-destructive method of
> > bringing the doors back to a flush position with the fuselage?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Garry V. Stout
> >
> >
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Regarding Europa Lists NACA vents |
03/07/2003 09:09:52 AM
--> Europa-List message posted by: irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu
Don't be too hard on the company. I think the problem is due, at least in
part to the system they have to operate in. As bad as the certification
process is in the US, it is worse in the UK. Remember that Cessna has not
made a significant design change to a piston A/C in more than 30 years. In
the UK, even changing an airvent requires a application to authority (PFA),
even for just an individual builder. I'd guess that the manual
is the same problem, expense to change.
Just be glad we have people like Russ and Bob who have been there and done
that on enough Europas to know what actually works and what does not, and
what the actual best sequence of building is to avoid the
many small gotchas in the printed manual.
Ira N224XS XSTrigear MG
Subject: Europa-List: Regarding Europa Lists NACA vents
--> Europa-List message posted by: Jeff Roberts <jeff@rmmm.net>
These vents havent ever worked well. Several builders have told me this.
Europa knows this but continues to send them along with a builders manual
with pictures that are photo copied so you cant see them. There are many
other things that should be changed such as the sequence of certain parts
of
the build.
Dont get me wrong, I love this little plane and hope to be flying in a
year.
I just feel that if it werent for the expert guidance Ive received from
Flight Crafters I would have already made several mistakes. Simple things
like more drawings, better sequencing of the pages. Also how much would it
costs to include an extra rivet or two, or an extra piece of piano hinge
wire.
Clearly the company is more interested in selling kits than solving builder
concerns & problems with the manual. This is an issue that needs to be
changed if Europa is to ever flourish here in America.
Jeff
1st time builder
A258
Tri gear
Message 12
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--> Europa-List message posted by: John & Paddy Wigney <johnwigney@worldnet.att.net>
KarkelB@aol.com wrote:
>--> Europa-List message posted by: KarkelB@aol.com
>
>Folks, take a look at the new grand rapids technologies EFIS. Fine piece
it
>looks.# 420
>
>
>
Hi Karim,
Thanks for the heads up. My Grand Rapids EIS is one of the best items on
my panel and I have always received excellent service from the owner,
Greg Thoman On that basis,the new EFIS should be an excellent instrument.
See < http://hometown.aol.com/enginfosys > .
Multiple pages, split pages, trends, engine stuff, colour, you name it,
it 's got it. It looks most impressive. It is too late to consider for
my bird but if I was doing a new project, I would look very hard at it.
Cheers, John
N262WF
Message 13
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Shaun Simpkins" <shauns@hevanet.com>
Greg Toman has a very well thought out unit ( why is it that all the new
EFIS suppliers are named Greg?)
and the company has a long history of quiet success. Greg claims that the
EFIS has already gone through
the extensive flight testing prior to release that caught BMA publicly short
and that forced Dynon back to
the bench for a year. We'll see.
The cool thing about it is that you can buy just the display box and hook up
one of their EIS units
to it, and have a color graphical engine monitor for about $3K with probes.
(Yes, that is expensive,
about $1000 more than the uMonitor with probes, but about $1000 less than
the VM1000,
which doesn't have a recording function, or the ACS2000 with a similar
display form factor, which isn't certified).
Then you can add capability as you need. The other neat thing is that the
AHRS
is independent of the display central processor - each display can be
configured for different functions,
and the AHRS data can be fed to both. Redundancy!
Problem: $8K for an EFIS with probes, no terrain mapping, not fully
integrated like EFIS-1. An intermediate
solution with an intermediate price.
Greg is planning a checklists option soon after release.
If you're not sure about these me-too AHRS suppliers, Crossbow just
certified theirs ( Chelton uses it ) and you
can get one for the measly sum of $15K.
Shaun
----- Original Message -----
From: <KarkelB@aol.com>
Subject: Europa-List: Re: New EFIS
> --> Europa-List message posted by: KarkelB@aol.com
>
> Folks,
> take a look at the new grand rapids technologies EFIS. Fine piece
it
> looks.
>
> # 420
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Honda/Continental ! |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Shaun Simpkins" <shauns@hevanet.com>
Latest AOPA blurb:
Honda and Continental have been partnering on a new technology recip engine that
runs on unleaded.
Water/air cooled, FADEC, etc. The usual significant efficiency improvements.
It has been under test
for a couple of years.
Honda has also been working on a turbine.
Shaun
Message 15
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--> Europa-List message posted by: DJA727@aol.com
In a message dated 3/7/2003 3:49:34 AM Pacific Standard Time, KarkelB@aol.com
writes:
> take a look at the new grand rapids technologies EFIS. Fine piece it
> looks.
>
This looks to be exactly what I was looking for on my airplane! Too bad it
was not available when I built the panel. The size is right. I would now have
to try to sell my gyros and vacuum system to convert. It should save weight
and help move my CG aft!
Dave
A227
Mini U2
Message 16
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| Subject: | Sequencing of pages |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Jeff Roberts <jeff@rmmm.net>
Pete,
Please e-mail me direct and I will respond asap.
Jeff
A258
Message 17
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Rob Housman" <RobH@hyperion-ef.com>
OK, Ferg, here goes....
Although my undergraduate education was in chemical engineering I am not
certain that I should "pronounce" on the correct choice, not being an expert
on the subject. I do, however, feel competent to interpret published data,
and in this case I don't see too much difference (except price) between
nitrile and Buna-N, but McMaster-Carr's Buna-N product description tips the
balance (for me) by noting that the hose "Meets SAE J1527, Type B2 standards
for marine fuel hose."
I also did a quick Web search for SAE J1527 and found an interesting (and
brief) description of marine fuel system hoses at
http://www.tridentmarine.com/html/refers/fuelhs.html that includes these
definitions "Type A hose is fire resistant. Type B hose is not fire
resistant. Class 1 hose (for fuel distribution lines) is the most fuel
permeation resistant. Class 2 hose (for fuel fill and vent lines) may be
less fuel permeation resistant." The Buna-N offered by McMaster-Carr is
rated B2 - a Type B rating for fire resistance in the baggage bay area
probably is not too important (if you've got flames back there you have much
worse things to worry about than whether the hose will rupture) but the
Class 2 may make you reconsider. I did find a source (sort of) for SAE
J1527, Type A1 at http://www.jgbenterprises.com/static/6030.asp (with a
location not too far from you across the border near Syracuse, NY) but that
page notes that Goodyear (the manufacturer) produces large diameter sizes of
this only in rather large minimum quantities, and it is a non-stock item for
the distributor.
Another search on SAE J20R1 found links only to radiator hose applications
so if I had only these two choices I would choose the Buna-N.
I am building an XS and have yet to put fuel in the tank so I can't comment
on the suitability of hose materials from personal experience. I have used
the very short "couplings" supplied by Europa for the fuel filler connection
to the tank, and likewise for the connections at the bottom of the tank, but
I replaced the factory supplied small diameter fuel hose with Teflon lined,
stainless steel braided hose.
In re: your follow on message. What did you mean by "your address came back
and bit me?" Did your message get bounced by my server?
Best regards,
Rob Housman
A070
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Fergus Kyle
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel filler
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Housman" <RobH@hyperion-ef.com>
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel filler
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Rob Housman" <RobH@hyperion-ef.com>>
> Polyurethane is a very poor choice for handling fuel. For details go to
> http://www.mcmaster.com/ and search for 5108KAC (a pdf file of
properties> of various polyurethane formulations). Read it and weep.
> PVC is even worse (5233KAC).>
> Some types of nylon (5173KAC) are good, and Teflon brand of PTFE
(5239KAC)> is the best of the plastics, but lots of luck finding either
material in a> large enough diameter, although Teflon lined hose is
available in larger> sizes (at US$43.56 per foot for 2 inch ID).
> The best choices for handling fuel and oil are the various Buna-N, and
> nitrile hoses (search for "petroleum hose") and one of these is probably>
what the Europa factory has supplied.> Best regards,
> Rob Housman> A070
Rob,
I thanked you privately, but thanks again for help.
At your suggestion, I ran across McMaster-Carr page196,
item 5285k31, 3ft of 2"ID Nitrile hose for $US20.19, and
item 5727k76, 5ft of 2"ID Buna-N hose at $US9.89 per foot.
Each claims ideal resisitance to fuel oil/gasoline and each has
a satisfactory bend radius to qualify it for a run from top centre (Classic)
to tank entry port, although I plan an aluminum horizontal plus 5 inch
upward weld for the last section into the baggage area.
Would you be willing to pronounce on either or both of these, as
to avoid the stench of diesel oil I am willing to cough up the requisite
sum? I suppose that opens the arena for any other cognosciento as well.
kind thoughts,
Ferg
A064
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Door Gas Strut Mod. |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Dale Hetrick <gdale2@juno.com>
Jim,
Sorry to bug you, but there were no attachments to your note. Would you
please resend the pics as I really want to make the mod but still don't
understand how to do it.
Thanks again,
Dale
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Door Gas Strut Mod. |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Gerry Holland <gnholland@onetel.com>
Dale Hi!
You'll find Pictures and Dimensions at:
http://europa363.versadev.com/apr-02.html
The illustrations worked well for my modification to the struts. Thank
You Paul.
Kind Regards
Gerry
Gerry Holland
mailto://gnholland@onetel.com
+44 7808 402404
Europa XS 384
G-FIZY
The greatest enjoyment from existence is living dangerously....
Friedrich Nietzsche
Message 20
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "hedley brown" <hedley@hedleybrown.flyer.co.uk>
Nobody seems to have risen to my suggestion of hot-or-cold
radiator-to-footwell ducts. Really no interest?....H
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard" <riddon@btinternet.com>
Subject: Europa-List: naca vents
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Richard" <riddon@btinternet.com>
>
> Murphy's law at work!!
>
> I fitted the NACA vents in the side of the fuse, as recommended by the
> factory. First time I operated them in situ, after completing the
painting
> of the fuse, the threaded pin snapped off one of them.
>
> I have obtained a spare replacement & have been trying to work out how
> replace the broken flap with a new one. The only way I can see is to
grind
> off the outer surround to the replacement, leaving just the flap and the
> internal housing, then grind of the housing on the broken one. I can then
> glue the replacement housing complete with flap to the existing outer
> surround.
>
> Anyone got any other solutions? Also what glue is best to glue the
plastic?
>
> Richard Iddon G-RIXS (back to working out where all the wires go)
>
>
Message 21
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@ukonline.co.uk>
Hi! Hedley.
Don't worry mate! I did that to get warm air in this lousey climate we have
here. However I'm a Jabiru man and my warm air comes from the oil cooler and
sump fins. It should be going on the matronics photo share site any day !
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI 337/Jabiru 3300 #084
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of hedley brown
Subject: Re: Europa-List: naca vents
--> Europa-List message posted by: "hedley brown"
<hedley@hedleybrown.flyer.co.uk>
Nobody seems to have risen to my suggestion of hot-or-cold
radiator-to-footwell ducts. Really no interest?....H
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard" <riddon@btinternet.com>
Subject: Europa-List: naca vents
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Richard" <riddon@btinternet.com>
>
> Murphy's law at work!!
>
> I fitted the NACA vents in the side of the fuse, as recommended by the
> factory. First time I operated them in situ, after completing the
painting
> of the fuse, the threaded pin snapped off one of them.
>
> I have obtained a spare replacement & have been trying to work out how
> replace the broken flap with a new one. The only way I can see is to
grind
> off the outer surround to the replacement, leaving just the flap and the
> internal housing, then grind of the housing on the broken one. I can then
> glue the replacement housing complete with flap to the existing outer
> surround.
>
> Anyone got any other solutions? Also what glue is best to glue the
plastic?
>
> Richard Iddon G-RIXS (back to working out where all the wires go)
>
>
Message 22
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--> Europa-List message posted by: nigelcharles@tiscali.co.uk
I decided against using the prefabricated NACA vents for three reasons.
Firstly as indicated by the recent emails the quality is poor.
Secondly the access for adjustment is poor.
Thirdly there is no facility for adjusting direction of flow hence the
problem of cold knees.
Although a fixed vent produces a small amount of extra drag when not in
use
it is easier to attach a car type flow and direction controller on the
inside. Having looked over a car scrapyard I chose ventilator outlets from
a
Volvo 340 as these give both flow and direction control whilst not being
too
large. If the fixed NACA vent flap is inset by the right amount it will
match up perfectly with the flow control flap when it is fully open. If
the
NACA vent is cut as far forward as practical, the face of the vent outlet
is
flush with the panel.
On new build it is easy to make a fixed NACA vent by cutting the shape out
from the skin except the forward end, flexing inwards and glassing in top
and bottom
side faces.
Although these vents work well my main ventilation control is via an
overhead ventilator with a pair of eyeball vents. This ensures a flow of
cool air to the face.
Nigel Charles
Message 23
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Joseph J. Like" <josephlike@cox.net>
I just looked at it too. It looks like a nice addition. Just remember it does
not
replace the J400 or J600. Except for the Horizon model it is a display and requires
other sources to provide the data. In other words just because you have the older
EFI
doesn't mean you can not have the new display as well.
You might also want to look at the new Pulsar engine monitor from Stern Technologies
(www.sterntech.com). Their unit is 2995.00 (US$) and really looks nice.
Joseph J. Like
A086/mon hybrid
jabiru 3300
John & Paddy Wigney wrote:
> --> Europa-List message posted by: John & Paddy Wigney <johnwigney@worldnet.att.net>
>
> KarkelB@aol.com wrote:
>
> >--> Europa-List message posted by: KarkelB@aol.com
> >
> >Folks, take a look at the new grand rapids technologies EFIS. Fine piece
it
> >looks.# 420
> >
> >
> >
> Hi Karim,
>
> Thanks for the heads up. My Grand Rapids EIS is one of the best items on
> my panel and I have always received excellent service from the owner,
> Greg Thoman On that basis,the new EFIS should be an excellent instrument.
> See < http://hometown.aol.com/enginfosys > .
> Multiple pages, split pages, trends, engine stuff, colour, you name it,
> it 's got it. It looks most impressive. It is too late to consider for
> my bird but if I was doing a new project, I would look very hard at it.
>
> Cheers, John
> N262WF
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Door Gas Strut Mod. |
--> Europa-List message posted by: James Nelson <europajim@juno.com>
We will try again--
See the attachments and if they don't come thru, let me know.
Are you going to visit Sun-N-Fun??
Jim
On Fri, 7 Mar 2003 10:19:13 -0800 Dale Hetrick <gdale2@juno.com> writes:
> --> Europa-List message posted by: Dale Hetrick <gdale2@juno.com>
>
> Jim,
> Sorry to bug you, but there were no attachments to your note. Would
> you
> please resend the pics as I really want to make the mod but still
> don't
> understand how to do it.
> Thanks again,
> Dale
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 25
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--> Europa-List message posted by: KarkelB@aol.com
.. another good vent is the 'ultimate ventilator' from aircraft spruce. Abit
pricey at $100.00 apiece, but will direct air flow wherever you want it.
karim.
# 420
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Door Gas Strut Mod. |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Dale Hetrick <gdale2@juno.com>
Gerry,
Many thanks,
Dale
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Door Gas Strut Mod. |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Dale Hetrick <gdale2@juno.com>
Jim,
Messages are arriving without any attachments! Don't forget to hit the
"Attach File" button!
Thanks,
Dale
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