Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:52 AM - 5 Point Harnesses (Tony Renshaw)
2. 08:44 AM - Re: 5 Point Harnesses (Andy Draper)
3. 10:37 AM - Re: 5 Point Harnesses (david joyce)
4. 10:55 AM - door struts (paul stewart)
5. 11:02 AM - Re: Jabiru Engin (tom)
6. 11:35 AM - 5-point torture (Fergus Kyle)
7. 02:39 PM - Re: 5 Point Harnesses (Tony Renshaw)
8. 03:51 PM - Re: 5 Point Harnesses (James Nelson)
9. 04:17 PM - Re: 5 Point Harnesses (Tony Renshaw)
10. 04:18 PM - Re: 5 Point Harnesses (Tony Renshaw)
11. 11:06 PM - Cooling Air Baffle (DJA727@aol.com)
12. 11:33 PM - Re: MAC Stick Grips (Phil Tait)
13. 11:39 PM - Re: Main gear installation sequence (Phil Tait)
14. 11:42 PM - Epoxy pump (Phil Tait)
Message 1
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| Subject: | 5 Point Harnesses |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw@ozemail.com.au>
Gidday,
I am working on my cockpit module and am wondering about a 5 point harness.
I know some may think this overkill, but I fly an a/c now that only has a 4
point, and there is a natural tendency as your shoulder harness tightens
under load for your lapstrap to ride up above your hips. To achieve a safe
outcome your lapstrap would have to be uncomfortably tight always. So, the
problem arises in an impact where your abdomen is exposed to forces
supposed to be contained by your lapstrap, but they aren't. So, I want to
know if anyone has fitted a crutch strap and if so where it was mounted,
either on the vertical face of the thigh support, or was it accomodated in
the first 4-6" of the front portion of the thigh support on the seat long
axis, or where? Any quick advice would be kindly appreciated.
Reg
Tony Renshaw
Sydney Australia
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: 5 Point Harnesses |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Andy Draper" <andy@europa-aircraft.com>
Dear Tony,
Don't forget that you'll need to add a metal insert to the front face of the thigh
support.
Regards
Andy
>>> Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw@ozemail.com.au> 03/13/03 11:43am >>>
--> Europa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw@ozemail.com.au>
Gidday,
I am working on my cockpit module and am wondering about a 5 point harness.
I know some may think this overkill, but I fly an a/c now that only has a 4
point, and there is a natural tendency as your shoulder harness tightens
under load for your lapstrap to ride up above your hips. To achieve a safe
outcome your lapstrap would have to be uncomfortably tight always. So, the
problem arises in an impact where your abdomen is exposed to forces
supposed to be contained by your lapstrap, but they aren't. So, I want to
know if anyone has fitted a crutch strap and if so where it was mounted,
either on the vertical face of the thigh support, or was it accomodated in
the first 4-6" of the front portion of the thigh support on the seat long
axis, or where? Any quick advice would be kindly appreciated.
Reg
Tony Renshaw
Sydney Australia
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: 5 Point Harnesses |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "david joyce" <davidjoyce@beeb.net>
Tony, I have the feeling that 5 point harnesses are of very limited value
except in seating arrangements like those in modern gliders where you lie
almost horizontally and there is consequently a major tendency to slide
forward under the harness on impact. With the europa seat the lap element
has a good purchase on you pelvic bones and because of the angulation of the
body should have no difficulty restraining forward movement. I fly a
Bellanca Scout (as a tug plane) with a 5 point harness on a seat with
similar upright body & angled at the pelvis. The crutch strap goes almost
horizontally forward to get over the front end of the seat and is therefore
acting at almost right angles to the shoulder straps. Any tightening of it
tends to loosen the lap strap, which is all a bit of a pain! In any case in
an impact your crutch would have to tavel quite a way forward before it got
restrained, (ouch!). I find the Europa supplied harness very comfortable,
and convincingly secure in use, quite sufficient to do aerobatics with in
fact, (if of course we were allowed to!) I suspect that you will gain
nothing but a bit of weight by replacing it with a 5 pointer. Regards, David
Joyce
----- Original Message -----
From: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Europa-List: 5 Point Harnesses
> --> Europa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw
<tonyrenshaw@ozemail.com.au>
>
> Gidday,
> I am working on my cockpit module and am wondering about a 5 point
harness.
> I know some may think this overkill, but I fly an a/c now that only has a
4
> point, and there is a natural tendency as your shoulder harness tightens
> under load for your lapstrap to ride up above your hips. To achieve a safe
> outcome your lapstrap would have to be uncomfortably tight always. So, the
> problem arises in an impact where your abdomen is exposed to forces
> supposed to be contained by your lapstrap, but they aren't. So, I want to
> know if anyone has fitted a crutch strap and if so where it was mounted,
> either on the vertical face of the thigh support, or was it accomodated in
> the first 4-6" of the front portion of the thigh support on the seat long
> axis, or where? Any quick advice would be kindly appreciated.
> Reg
> Tony Renshaw
> Sydney Australia
>
>
Message 4
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "paul stewart" <paul-d.stewart@virgin.net>
Yes I caught the fact that Teds mod is with the PFA I was wondering if the
rather simpler arrangement that Jim and Paul have used had been put to the
PFA by anyone?
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru Engin |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "tom" <beecho@fix.net>
Hi Jeff
I have installed a J3300 but am not flying yet. There is one flying in Oz
and one in England. Many others are in the preflying stage. Jabirus fwf
kit is particularly complete and the supplied cowling is more sleek than the
Rotax europa cowling.
Tom Friedland XSmonoJabiruAirmasterN96V, Atascadero, CA A078
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Roberts" <jeff@rmmm.net>
Subject: Europa-List: Jabiru Engine
> --> Europa-List message posted by: Jeff Roberts <jeff@rmmm.net>
>
> Is there anyone out there that's considering or is flying the Jabiru 3300
120
> HP engin in the Europa. If so could you share any performance or weight
and
> balance information. The company says the installed weight is 178lbs so it
> should work.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jeff Roberts
> Tri Gear
> A258
>
>
Message 6
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
Tony,
Following of David Joyce's remarks, I remember that all the
5-point harnesses I ever 'enjoyed' were attached to seat cutouts (ie: leg
extensions) which permitted the crutch strap to damage one's vitals almost
immediately upon encountering something hard ahead. There are better things
to strap to.
One such event had me scratched from the choir bass section.
Ferg
do not archive
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: 5 Point Harnesses |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw@ozemail.com.au>
Andy,
Thanks for your input. Could you specify quickly a thickness and size please,
and whether 2 plies of BID would be enough to retain it?
reg
Tony Renshaw
At 04:52 PM 3/13/2003 +0000, you wrote:
>--> Europa-List message posted by: "Andy Draper" <andy@europa-aircraft.com>
>
>Dear Tony,
>
>Don't forget that you'll need to add a metal insert to the front face of the
>thigh support.
>
>Regards
>Andy
>
>>>> Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw@ozemail.com.au> 03/13/03 11:43am >>>
>--> Europa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw@ozemail.com.au>
>
>Gidday,
>I am working on my cockpit module and am wondering about a 5 point harness.
>I know some may think this overkill, but I fly an a/c now that only has a 4
>point, and there is a natural tendency as your shoulder harness tightens
>under load for your lapstrap to ride up above your hips. To achieve a safe
>outcome your lapstrap would have to be uncomfortably tight always. So, the
>problem arises in an impact where your abdomen is exposed to forces
>supposed to be contained by your lapstrap, but they aren't. So, I want to
>know if anyone has fitted a crutch strap and if so where it was mounted,
>either on the vertical face of the thigh support, or was it accomodated in
>the first 4-6" of the front portion of the thigh support on the seat long
>axis, or where? Any quick advice would be kindly appreciated.
>Reg
>Tony Renshaw
>Sydney Australia
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: 5 Point Harnesses |
--> Europa-List message posted by: James Nelson <europajim@juno.com>
Tony,
Just elevate the stock shoulder harness attachment above your
shoulders. Actually I threw away the Europa units. I purchased a set of
Hooker Harness for both sides. I preferred the military style hook up
for obvious safety and extraction reasons. This is an airplane, not a
car. I also moved the shoulder harness attachment to the top of the
airframe. This stops the compression of the spine in a sudden vertical
or forward motion. With the original mounting, you will have a serious
problem with vertical compression in a vertical and forward motion of the
airframe in a crash situation. If you look at the movement of your body
in a crash, you will move forward but will be restrained by the lap seat
belt and the shoulder harness. With the restraining of forward motion
using the shoulder harness, you will be forced downward because of the
geometry of the stock mounting position (below the shoulder). Also, I
sit in a seat that positions the body in a semi-reclined position. Thus,
a very small possibility of needing the 5th point. Also, you need to
keep the harness snug because you are positioned very close to the top,
thus you need to keep attached snuggly to the airframe. I've already
bumped my head during mild turbulence. You get very used to the snugness
of the belt and begin to prefer it over the other style.
Just my opinion but I'm getting to be an old, and not bold,
pilot. Just my rantings, but with 20 + years flying helicopters, I've
found a few truths in crashing (seven times). Don't want to do it in an
airframe which must be kept moving forward to remain airborn. Thank
goodness for our slow stall speed and the design of the forward lower
fuselage. BTW the upward sloping portion of the fuselage in the footwell
area is very good. A 90 degree position of the firewall to the bottom
will dig in as you try to stop thus increasing the deceleration forces
higher than you want. The slooping area lets you slide on with out
digging in. We really have a pretty good design. But nothing is
perfect. The shoulder harness mounting area is not good in my opinion.
Just raise it about 3 to 4 inches.
Jim Nelson
N15JN
On Thu, 13 Mar 2003 22:43:05 +1100 Tony Renshaw
<tonyrenshaw@ozemail.com.au> writes:
> --> Europa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw
> <tonyrenshaw@ozemail.com.au>
>
> Gidday,
> I am working on my cockpit module and am wondering about a 5 point
> harness.
> I know some may think this overkill, but I fly an a/c now that only
> has a 4
> point, and there is a natural tendency as your shoulder harness
> tightens
> under load for your lapstrap to ride up above your hips. To achieve
> a safe
> outcome your lapstrap would have to be uncomfortably tight always.
> So, the
> problem arises in an impact where your abdomen is exposed to forces
> supposed to be contained by your lapstrap, but they aren't. So, I
> want to
> know if anyone has fitted a crutch strap and if so where it was
> mounted,
> either on the vertical face of the thigh support, or was it
> accomodated in
> the first 4-6" of the front portion of the thigh support on the seat
> long
> axis, or where? Any quick advice would be kindly appreciated.
> Reg
> Tony Renshaw
> Sydney Australia
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: 5 Point Harnesses |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw@ozemail.com.au>
Jim,
Thanks for your in depth reply. Do you have any pictures of your belts by
chance?
Reg
Tony Renshaw
Sydney Australia
At 06:38 PM 3/13/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> Europa-List message posted by: James Nelson <europajim@juno.com>
>
>Tony,
> Just elevate the stock shoulder harness attachment above your
>shoulders. Actually I threw away the Europa units. I purchased a set of
> Hooker Harness for both sides. I preferred the military style hook up
>for obvious safety and extraction reasons. This is an airplane, not a
>car. I also moved the shoulder harness attachment to the top of the
>airframe. This stops the compression of the spine in a sudden vertical
>or forward motion. With the original mounting, you will have a serious
>problem with vertical compression in a vertical and forward motion of the
>airframe in a crash situation. If you look at the movement of your body
>in a crash, you will move forward but will be restrained by the lap seat
>belt and the shoulder harness. With the restraining of forward motion
>using the shoulder harness, you will be forced downward because of the
>geometry of the stock mounting position (below the shoulder). Also, I
>sit in a seat that positions the body in a semi-reclined position. Thus,
>a very small possibility of needing the 5th point. Also, you need to
>keep the harness snug because you are positioned very close to the top,
>thus you need to keep attached snuggly to the airframe. I've already
>bumped my head during mild turbulence. You get very used to the snugness
>of the belt and begin to prefer it over the other style.
> Just my opinion but I'm getting to be an old, and not bold,
>pilot. Just my rantings, but with 20 + years flying helicopters, I've
>found a few truths in crashing (seven times). Don't want to do it in an
>airframe which must be kept moving forward to remain airborn. Thank
>goodness for our slow stall speed and the design of the forward lower
>fuselage. BTW the upward sloping portion of the fuselage in the footwell
>area is very good. A 90 degree position of the firewall to the bottom
>will dig in as you try to stop thus increasing the deceleration forces
>higher than you want. The slooping area lets you slide on with out
>digging in. We really have a pretty good design. But nothing is
>perfect. The shoulder harness mounting area is not good in my opinion.
>Just raise it about 3 to 4 inches.
>
>
>Jim Nelson
>N15JN
>
>
>On Thu, 13 Mar 2003 22:43:05 +1100 Tony Renshaw
><tonyrenshaw@ozemail.com.au> writes:
>> --> Europa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw
>> <tonyrenshaw@ozemail.com.au>
>>
>> Gidday,
>> I am working on my cockpit module and am wondering about a 5 point
>> harness.
>> I know some may think this overkill, but I fly an a/c now that only
>> has a 4
>> point, and there is a natural tendency as your shoulder harness
>> tightens
>> under load for your lapstrap to ride up above your hips. To achieve
>> a safe
>> outcome your lapstrap would have to be uncomfortably tight always.
>> So, the
>> problem arises in an impact where your abdomen is exposed to forces
>> supposed to be contained by your lapstrap, but they aren't. So, I
>> want to
>> know if anyone has fitted a crutch strap and if so where it was
>> mounted,
>> either on the vertical face of the thigh support, or was it
>> accomodated in
>> the first 4-6" of the front portion of the thigh support on the seat
>> long
>> axis, or where? Any quick advice would be kindly appreciated.
>> Reg
>> Tony Renshaw
>> Sydney Australia
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: 5 Point Harnesses |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw@ozemail.com.au>
Oh, and Jim, what grease did you use on your flight controls in your cockpit
module???
--> Europa-List message posted by: James Nelson <europajim@juno.com>
Tony,
Just elevate the stock shoulder harness attachment above your
shoulders. Actually I threw away the Europa units. I purchased a set of
Hooker Harness for both sides. I preferred the military style hook up
for obvious safety and extraction reasons. This is an airplane, not a
car. I also moved the shoulder harness attachment to the top of the
airframe. This stops the compression of the spine in a sudden vertical
or forward motion. With the original mounting, you will have a serious
problem with vertical compression in a vertical and forward motion of the
airframe in a crash situation. If you look at the movement of your body
in a crash, you will move forward but will be restrained by the lap seat
belt and the shoulder harness. With the restraining of forward motion
using the shoulder harness, you will be forced downward because of the
geometry of the stock mounting position (below the shoulder). Also, I
sit in a seat that positions the body in a semi-reclined position. Thus,
a very small possibility of needing the 5th point. Also, you need to
keep the harness snug because you are positioned very close to the top,
thus you need to keep attached snuggly to the airframe. I've already
bumped my head during mild turbulence. You get very used to the snugness
of the belt and begin to prefer it over the other style.
Just my opinion but I'm getting to be an old, and not bold,
pilot. Just my rantings, but with 20 + years flying helicopters, I've
found a few truths in crashing (seven times). Don't want to do it in an
airframe which must be kept moving forward to remain airborn. Thank
goodness for our slow stall speed and the design of the forward lower
fuselage. BTW the upward sloping portion of the fuselage in the footwell
area is very good. A 90 degree position of the firewall to the bottom
will dig in as you try to stop thus increasing the deceleration forces
higher than you want. The slooping area lets you slide on with out
digging in. We really have a pretty good design. But nothing is
perfect. The shoulder harness mounting area is not good in my opinion.
Just raise it about 3 to 4 inches.
Jim Nelson
N15JN
On Thu, 13 Mar 2003 22:43:05 +1100 Tony Renshaw
<tonyrenshaw@ozemail.com.au> writes:
> --> Europa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw
> <tonyrenshaw@ozemail.com.au>
>
> Gidday,
> I am working on my cockpit module and am wondering about a 5 point
> harness.
> I know some may think this overkill, but I fly an a/c now that only
> has a 4
> point, and there is a natural tendency as your shoulder harness
> tightens
> under load for your lapstrap to ride up above your hips. To achieve
> a safe
> outcome your lapstrap would have to be uncomfortably tight always.
> So, the
> problem arises in an impact where your abdomen is exposed to forces
> supposed to be contained by your lapstrap, but they aren't. So, I
> want to
> know if anyone has fitted a crutch strap and if so where it was
> mounted,
> either on the vertical face of the thigh support, or was it
> accomodated in
> the first 4-6" of the front portion of the thigh support on the seat
> long
> axis, or where? Any quick advice would be kindly appreciated.
> Reg
> Tony Renshaw
> Sydney Australia
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Cooling Air Baffle |
--> Europa-List message posted by: DJA727@aol.com
HI List,
I am running down ideas for improving the engine cooling and also improving
the engine over cooling in descent and with the engine shut down in flight.
One Idea I have had for a while is to incorporate the "cooling air baffle"
that I have seen on some Rotax installations. Specifically, I have seen the
diamond extreme with a single air intake going directly into this part, which
forces cooling air down over the cylinder bases. I have two questions:
1. Has anyone tried to use owe of these parts on a Europa installation? The
part number is 945-795.
2. Does anyone know what this part costs? I have looked it up in the
California power systems catalog and it seems to be over $500 -- an amazing
price for a fiberglass baffle.
Any ideas on this?
The Mini U2 now has 21 hours of flight time, flown up to and over gross, has
a tail wheel fairing now and is running very well -- after the first oil
change.
Dave
A227
Mini U2
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: MAC Stick Grips |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Phil Tait" <phil@archwise.co.uk>
Nigel
Have you still got your grips?
REGARDS
Phil Tait
Builder 551 UK
----- Original Message -----
From: <nigelcharles@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Europa-List: MAC Stick Grips
> --> Europa-List message posted by: nigelcharles@tiscali.co.uk
>
> Due to a redesign of my control sticks I have a pair of MAC Stick Grips
> (Model G5) for sale. The G5 version has 4 pushbuttons for trim on the top
> and a PTT button at the front. Mine are mounted on cranked aluminium
sticks
> and are wired with a 9pin connector. Also provided is a custom made
junction
> box which gives priority to the left stick.
>
> The MAC Stick Grips currently retail at $69 each. I am looking for 50
($75)
> for the pair plus shipping. Shipping costs will be from either UK or USA
> as I can mail from within the USA if required.
>
> Nigel Charles
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Main gear installation sequence |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Phil Tait" <phil@archwise.co.uk>
Richard
have you any pictures of your completed layups?
I will soon have to tackle the job myself.
REGARDS
Phil Tait
Builder 551
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard" <riddon@btinternet.com>
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Main gear installation sequence
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Richard" <riddon@btinternet.com>
>
> I asked the factory about this and was advised that it was OK to install
the
> main gear before bonding the top on. I set everything up with the top
> clecoed in place then removed it to do the layups. I agree that it is one
> of the messiest jobs on the entire build.
>
> Richard Iddon G-RIXS
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
> TELEDYNMCS@aol.com
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Europa-List: Main gear installation sequence
>
>
> --> Europa-List message posted by: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com
>
> Greetings all,
>
> I was doing some planning regarding routing of wires yesterday,
particularly
> in the area where the installation of my main gear (tri) will be, and I
> noticed that the manual flow chart shows the main gear leg installation
> takes
> place after the top half of the fuselage has been bonded on. Is there a
> reason for this sequence? It seems to me the main gear installation would
be
> much easier before the top is installed, given the obvious access issues
for
> where all the work takes place.
>
> Comments?
>
> John Lawton
> Dunlap, TN
> A-245
>
>
Message 14
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Phil Tait" <phil@archwise.co.uk>
Hi
Does any one have an epoxy pump for sale that works
Regards
Phil Tait
Builder 551 UK
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