Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:29 AM - Radiator hoses wanted for 912 Classic (Cripps, David)
2. 03:25 AM - Re: Europa-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 03/29/03 (Graham Singleton)
3. 08:42 AM - fuel flow (paul stewart)
4. 09:16 AM - Re: fuel flow (Fergus Kyle)
5. 09:22 AM - Re: fuel flow (Peter Zutrauen)
6. 09:24 AM - Re: fuel flow (Peter Zutrauen)
7. 12:35 PM - Re: fuel flow (Tony S. Krzyzewski)
8. 03:38 PM - Grammar [was: Re: Aircraft to get PPL] (Paul Mansfield)
9. 03:44 PM - Fuel lines/fuel lines/ (Tony Renshaw)
10. 06:01 PM - Re: Fuel lines/fuel lines/ (Troy Maynor)
11. 06:18 PM - Re: Fuel lines/fuel lines/ (Tony S. Krzyzewski)
12. 08:08 PM - Re: Fuel lines/fuel lines/ (ScramIt@aol.com)
13. 08:49 PM - Re: Fuel lines/fuel lines/ (Fred Fillinger)
14. 08:53 PM - Re: fuel flow (Kevin Klinefelter)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Radiator hoses wanted for 912 Classic |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Cripps, David" <david.cripps@spsystems.com>
I am in the process of finishing off a replumbing job, replacing rubber coolant
hoses throughout my 912 Classic. Unfortunately, Europa have had a delay of about
4 weeks in getting in the new shaped hoses that link the radiators to the
expansion tank and water pump (hoses: CO2 and CO3).
Is there any possibility that someone who has not quite got to that point in installing
their engine into a 912-powered Classic, have these hoses that I could
'borrow' for a few weeks, and then when Europa get the new ones in (about end
April) I'll send you those new ones? It would mean that I could finish off this
job, rather than be grounded for the next four weeks!
It may be a long shot, but perhaps someone has got all the bits for the engine
installation, but hasn't quite got to that assembly stage where the hoses are
needed?
If you are able to help, I'd be most grateful and would happily cover all postage
etc. Please reply off forum to david.cripps@spsystems.com, ot call me on 07970
140950.
Many thanks
David
Europa Classic GBWJH
Visit SP at stand J06/L01 at the JEC Composites Show, Paris, 1st-3rd April 2003
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Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Europa-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 03/29/03 |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton <graham@gflight.f9.co.uk>
At 23:56 29/03/2003 -0800, you wrote:
> >I understand that fitting the strobe on the fin is not recommended due
>to
>the fact that it can be seen from the cockpit and causes some distraction.<
>
>I have not found it a problem. I can just about see it in my peripheral
>vision when I twist around as much as I can to the left. The comment might
>be more significant for those who are permitted to fly their Europa at night
>but this is not allowed with UK registered kitplanes. If you intend (like
>me) to use a single strobe the top of the fin is the logical place as it
>is
>most easily seen from there.
If you wear spectacles the strobe will reflect in the back of the lens with
only moderate head deflection. I once mistook it for lightning.
Graham
---
Message 3
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "paul stewart" <paul-d.stewart@virgin.net>
I suspect that this has been asked and answered before, but here goes. In the process
of thinking about instruments etc. and the Grand rapids system looks interesting.
I see that their EIS has an option to monitor fuel flow. My question
is is this possible with a 914 where my understanding is (I haven't got the
engine yet) that there is a constant flow of fuel back to the tank regardless
of how much is actually going to the engine. If it is possible where does one
mount the flow sensor.
Regards
Paul Stewart #432
Message 4
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
Paul,
For return line fuel, you need two sensors, one positive, one
negative for net flow.
Ferg
----- Original Message -----
From: "paul stewart" <paul-d.stewart@virgin.net>
Subject: Europa-List: fuel flow
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "paul stewart"
<paul-d.stewart@virgin.net>
>
> I suspect that this has been asked and answered before, but here goes. In
the process of thinking about instruments etc. and the Grand rapids system
looks interesting. I see that their EIS has an option to monitor fuel flow.
My question is is this possible with a 914 where my understanding is (I
haven't got the engine yet) that there is a constant flow of fuel back to
the tank regardless of how much is actually going to the engine. If it is
possible where does one mount the flow sensor.
>
> Regards
>
> Paul Stewart #432
>
>
Message 5
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Zutrauen" <peterz@zutrasoft.com>
I'm also quite interested in the GrandRapids EFIS - but I've got lots of
time before I commit to a vendor.
You'd need two sensors and subtract if the Grand Rapids system can not
accommodate. I believe Matronics makes a subtractive thingy (see at:
http://www.matronics.com/fuelchec/RFC/index.htm )
It's quite expensive though for what it does. Also I'm not sure if it is
only compatible with their unit.
Cheers,
Pete
A239
-----Original Message-----
From: paul stewart [mailto:paul-d.stewart@virgin.net]
Subject: Europa-List: fuel flow
--> Europa-List message posted by: "paul stewart"
<paul-d.stewart@virgin.net>
I suspect that this has been asked and answered before, but here goes.
In the process of thinking about instruments etc. and the Grand rapids
system looks interesting. I see that their EIS has an option to monitor
fuel flow. My question is is this possible with a 914 where my
understanding is (I haven't got the engine yet) that there is a constant
flow of fuel back to the tank regardless of how much is actually going
to the engine. If it is possible where does one mount the flow sensor.
Regards
Paul Stewart #432
Message 6
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Zutrauen" <peterz@zutrasoft.com>
Ferg,
Are these sensors outputting a digital stream, or an analogue voltage?
I'm curious how the subtraction could be easily implemented.
Cheers & thanks,
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: Fergus Kyle [mailto:VE3LVO@rac.ca]
Subject: Re: Europa-List: fuel flow
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
Paul,
For return line fuel, you need two sensors, one positive,
one
negative for net flow.
Ferg
----- Original Message -----
From: "paul stewart" <paul-d.stewart@virgin.net>
Subject: Europa-List: fuel flow
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "paul stewart"
<paul-d.stewart@virgin.net>
>
> I suspect that this has been asked and answered before, but here goes.
In
the process of thinking about instruments etc. and the Grand rapids
system
looks interesting. I see that their EIS has an option to monitor fuel
flow.
My question is is this possible with a 914 where my understanding is (I
haven't got the engine yet) that there is a constant flow of fuel back
to
the tank regardless of how much is actually going to the engine. If it
is
possible where does one mount the flow sensor.
>
> Regards
>
> Paul Stewart #432
>
>
Message 7
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Tony S. Krzyzewski" <tonyk@kaon.co.nz>
>>> Are these sensors outputting a digital stream, or an analogue
voltage?
I'm curious how the subtraction could be easily implemented.
The Matronics unit works well. It takes the two pulse feeds from the
flowscan sensors, deducts the return from the forward flow and presents
the result to any pulse input flow measurement system.
We've got this setup on ZK-UBD for input into the flight data logging
computer.
Tony
Message 8
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| Subject: | Grammar [was: RE: Aircraft to get PPL] |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul Mansfield" <M@nsfield.screaming.net>
It's is not, it isn't ain't, and it's it's, not its, if you mean it is. If
you don't, it's its. Then too, it's hers. It isn't her's. It isn't our's,
either. It's ours, and likewise yours and theirs. :-)
Paul 383
If everything and everybody in the universe doubled in size instantly, would
anyone notice?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of hedley brown
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Aircraft to get PPL
--> Europa-List message posted by: "hedley brown"
<hedley@hedleybrown.flyer.co.uk>
the biter bit!....h
----- Original Message -----
From: "JW" <xs191@attbi.com>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Aircraft to get PPL
> --> Europa-List message posted by: JW <xs191@attbi.com>
>
> If you are going to complain about his use of the apostrophe, you could at
least spell
> it correctly. :-|
>
> hedley brown wrote:
>
> > --> Europa-List message posted by: "hedley brown"
<hedley@hedleybrown.flyer.co.uk>
> >
> > it's=it is... can't we get the aposstrphe in its place? It's very
prevalent
> > among europeans.
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Fuel lines/fuel lines/ |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw@ozemail.com.au>
Gidday,
I have been following this thread for a while, because I started it. I am
surprised there isn't anything definitive, but I appreciate there is a
difference between ID and OD. I do however "not" have my head around why you
would need a restrictor in any fuel return line, irrespective of engine type?
Superficially, or based on "downunder" common sense (dare I say it......and I
have this horrible feeling I am about to eat dirt ), but, it doesn't gel. So,
why is it so? and why isn't there a bit more defiinitive answers to the fuel
dimension questions?
Reg
Anonymous, until I work out if I am right or not.
P.S. Yes, I know this is a falacy.
At 11:28 PM 3/28/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>--> Europa-List message posted by: "Kevin Klinefelter" <kevann@gte.net>
>
>I believe he said 912...
>Kevin
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tony S.
>Krzyzewski
>To: europa-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Fuel line requiremnets for Rotax
>
>--> Europa-List message posted by: "Tony S. Krzyzewski" <tonyk@kaon.co.nz>
>
>
>>>> The restrictor on the return fuel line is a pin hole.
>
>The 914 manual I have (v2, 1998) doesn't show a restrictor in the return
>line! It does however have one in the sight gauge line.
>
>For the 914 the fuel return line must be ....
>
>"a line of low fuel resistance. Maximum pressure loss is 0.1bar.
>(1.5psi) between fuel pressure control and tank inlet with both electric
>fuel pumps in action. Otherwise the carburetors could flood".
>
>Rotax 914F installation manual 1996 05 10, page 49.
>
>Tony
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel lines/fuel lines/ |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Troy Maynor" <wingnut54@charter.net>
If I am not mistaken, I think the restrictor was for the fuel site gage.
Apparently to keep the indicated level from moving up and down rapidly in
turns or turbulances or whatever.
Troy
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Europa-List: Fuel lines/fuel lines/
>--> Europa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw
<tonyrenshaw@ozemail.com.au>
>
>Gidday,
>I have been following this thread for a while, because I started it. I am
>surprised there isn't anything definitive, but I appreciate there is a
>difference between ID and OD. I do however "not" have my head around why
you
>would need a restrictor in any fuel return line, irrespective of engine
type?
>Superficially, or based on "downunder" common sense (dare I say it......and
I
>have this horrible feeling I am about to eat dirt ), but, it doesn't gel.
So,
>why is it so? and why isn't there a bit more defiinitive answers to the
fuel
>dimension questions?
>Reg
>Anonymous, until I work out if I am right or not.
>P.S. Yes, I know this is a falacy.
>
>
>At 11:28 PM 3/28/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>>--> Europa-List message posted by: "Kevin Klinefelter" <kevann@gte.net>
>>
>>I believe he said 912...
>>Kevin
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
>>[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tony S.
>>Krzyzewski
>>To: europa-list@matronics.com
>>Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Fuel line requiremnets for Rotax
>>
>>--> Europa-List message posted by: "Tony S. Krzyzewski" <tonyk@kaon.co.nz>
>>
>>
>>>>> The restrictor on the return fuel line is a pin hole.
>>
>>The 914 manual I have (v2, 1998) doesn't show a restrictor in the return
>>line! It does however have one in the sight gauge line.
>>
>>For the 914 the fuel return line must be ....
>>
>>"a line of low fuel resistance. Maximum pressure loss is 0.1bar.
>>(1.5psi) between fuel pressure control and tank inlet with both electric
>>fuel pumps in action. Otherwise the carburetors could flood".
>>
>>Rotax 914F installation manual 1996 05 10, page 49.
>>
>>Tony
>>
>>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Fuel lines/fuel lines/ |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Tony S. Krzyzewski" <tonyk@kaon.co.nz>
>>> If I am not mistaken, I think the restrictor was for the fuel site
gage. Apparently to keep the indicated level from moving up and down
rapidly in turns or turbulances or whatever. Troy
Now all they have to do is work out a way of stopping it moving up and
down when flying straight and level
:-)
Tony
Do not archive
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel lines/fuel lines/ |
--> Europa-List message posted by: ScramIt@aol.com
Yes, there is one for the fuel gauges and another for the return fuel line.
Page 7-2 Europa 912s engine installation.
"Fuel Return Line
Connect a length of the smaller bore steel braided hose SSR001 to the unused
leg of the second 'T' having first pushed the restrictor FS02 a short
distance into the engine end of the hose."
Maybe It has something to do with preventing vapor lock, and a full flow
return line would drop the pressure to much. Don't know but I'm stuffing one
in there.............
On yea, the guy on "a plane is born" made a point of choking on his before he
put it in.
SteveD.
http://homepage.mac.com/sdunsmuir/Europa.html
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel lines/fuel lines/ |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Fillinger <fillinger@ameritech.net>
Tony Renshaw wrote:
> Gidday,
> I have been following this thread for a while, because I started it.
> I am surprised there isn't anything definitive, but I appreciate
> thereis a difference between ID and OD. I do however "not" have my
> head around why you would need a restrictor in any fuel return line,
> irrespective of engine type?
At least on the 914, the maintenance-manual cutaway view of the pressure
regulator plus accompanying text looks clear at least to me that any
more than max specified back-pressure in the return line can deliver
excess pressure to flood the carbs. This is because the pressure from
the electric pump is substantially irrespective of engine RPM. But in a
mechanical pump, pressure is proportional to RPM but conveniently
coincident with engine needs, and at least in generic mech pumps (Rotax
same?) some degree of pressure regulation occurs, irrespective of
manifold pressure -- in contrast to the the 914. And without sufficient
restriction in a return line for the 912/912S, insufficient pressure
can result.
> Superficially, or based on "downunder" common sense (dare I say
> it......and I have this horrible feeling I am about to eat dirt),
> but, it doesn't gel. So, why is it so? and why isn't there a bit
> more definitive answers to the fuel dimension questions?
In following the thread also, I admit to some head-scratching, but at my
age that is rather harmless to the scalp. The diameter of the
fuel line is critical mostly to gravity-feed systems. If one studies
FAA's AC 23-16, Powerplant Guide for Certification of Part 23 Airplanes,
the required in-flight testing is broken down between gravity, pressure
(e.g. 912), and pressure-regulated (e.g. 914) systems. The test
requirements for the latter are indeed the least; gravity the most.
In fact, mere 1/8" I.D. of fuel line - if straight and not uphill,
should deliver to the pump about 4 times the max flow rate of the 914.
Even measured at the measly head pressure of the first gallon of usable
fuel as FAA requires for tests. The only issue is the pump's ability
to suck it out of the tank, any air in the line notwithstanding, and no
surprise that Rotax says mount the 914 electric pumps low and nearby the
tank as practical.
Downstream of any pump, it's all meaningless with sufficient pressure,
except for one thing. It's been established in University research that
the velocity of fuel anywhere in the line is relevant to tendency to
vapor lock. Narrower ID means greater flow velocity with one of them
squares in the computation, and resulting vapor-locking cavitation, but
a fat fuel line to slow her all down may not be a solution fwd of the
firewall due to greater time exposure to heat.
Further to the issue is that pre-pumped fuel flow is not so much
influenced by line internal diameter as it is by 1) altitude effects -
lesser head pressure especially affecting potential 914 operating
altitudes; 2) agitation in the tank - another vapor pressure problem,
and indeed there are potential tank baffling issues for production
approval; 3) hydrodynamics due to restrictions and bends in the system;
and 4) the head pressure as affected by "ram" air delivered by the tank
vent. Latter is proportional to another pesky square of the velocity,
and needs to exhibit positive pressure, relative to pressure someplace,
at low speed/high power/high density altitude, but not so excessive at
low-power/Vne speed/low altitude to damage or leak anything in the
system. It's also true that the constant stream of an electric pump can
be less insidious, agitation-wise, than the puslsations of an
engine-driven pump.
For the latter reasons, FAA requires of type-certificated manufacturers
to prove the entire system in flight testing under all extremes of
conditions, including as to vapor lock. One example is the effect of
any fuel-flow sensor which agitates especially higher VP auto fuel. But
as a practical matter, the roughly 5/16" ID of the soft line per Europa
is very similar to 3/8" OD aluminum - which will even be seen on much
higher-HP production aircraft, so like has there been any problem with
either of these on Europas? Still head-scratching.... :-)
Regards,
Fred F.
N3EU
Message 14
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Kevin Klinefelter" <kevann@gte.net>
I have purchased the Grand Rapids EIS for my 914. I got two "FloScan turbine
flow sensors" with the unit. The installation instructions provided with
these says "the sensor should be installed with at least 5 inches of
straight or gently curving fuel line before and 1-2 inches after the sensor
and the first valve, elbow, or other turbulence producing device. A
gascolator or filter should be installed upstream of the flow sensor. The
vapor venting design of the sensor requires that it be positioned with the
wires pointing up."
Kevin A211
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of paul stewart
Subject: Europa-List: fuel flow
--> Europa-List message posted by: "paul stewart"
<paul-d.stewart@virgin.net>
I suspect that this has been asked and answered before, but here goes. In
the process of thinking about instruments etc. and the Grand rapids system
looks interesting. I see that their EIS has an option to monitor fuel flow.
My question is is this possible with a 914 where my understanding is (I
haven't got the engine yet) that there is a constant flow of fuel back to
the tank regardless of how much is actually going to the engine. If it is
possible where does one mount the flow sensor.
Regards
Paul Stewart #432
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