---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 04/28/03: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:49 AM - Re: Fuel Gauge Installation Problem (Brian Davies) 2. 02:03 AM - Teflon 666 hose (Graham Singleton) 3. 02:17 AM - Re: Fuel Gauge Installation Problem (Tony Renshaw) 4. 03:25 AM - Re: Teflon 666 hose (Tony Renshaw) 5. 12:01 PM - Re: Alternator output measurement (Nigel Charles) 6. 01:39 PM - Re: Alternator output measurement (Fred Fillinger) 7. 03:00 PM - Re: Painting flaps (J R \(Bob\) Gowing) 8. 04:33 PM - Re: Teflon 666 hose (James Nelson) 9. 07:45 PM - Re: Alternator output measurement (Fred Fillinger) 10. 11:13 PM - Re: Mounting fuel pumps (Steve Hagar) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:49:53 AM PST US From: "Brian Davies" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel Gauge Installation Problem --> Europa-List message posted by: "Brian Davies" Tony, I had the problem of a significant angle at the tank seam. The seam was over an inch below the outer edges of the tank. The distortion looked like it was impossible to obtain a good seal so I spoke to Neville at the factory. He said the the tank was very flexible and would go flat when I tightened up the bolts. He was correct and it did not leak. I was able, however, to tighten the bolts enough to squeeze the rubber gasket, so I didnt have that part of your problem. Brian Davies kit 454 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Renshaw" Subject: Europa-List: Fuel Gauge Installation Problem > --> Europa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw > > Gidday, > I have installed the magnetic fuel gauge as per the instructions exactly. I > have a problem that the hole for the tank fitting is at the union of 2 > surfaces, either side of the seam. The angle is quite noticeable and it is > definitely not flat. Suffice to say, when I tighten up the 5 anchorage > screws I have a distortion of the plastic flange that supports the female > boss for the probe. The good news is that the female boss is quite thick, > and I reckon it will not distort over time, but the distortion of the > plastic flange over time may create some stress tears. When tightening up > the studs,the rubber gaskets are hardly distorted, so I can only presume > that the length of the studs might be such that they are botttoming out. I > may put a 916-10L washer under each to see if I can get them to nip up a > bit more. So where is the problem? I left the tank about 1/2 full for ages, > and noticed a small amount of moisture around the rubber gasket, which I > can only presume is fuel. The flange I can distort with finger pressure > between any 2 studs such that I can squeeze down on it and close up a gape. > I am considering using the Hermetite Gold sealant but I am now worried to > install it when I know things may not be perfect. Lets face it, its a long > time installed!!! (I hope). Has anyone had these problems, or any other > problems with these installations? I don't want to know about people who > worked out the problem before installing the hole in the tank as per the > instructions. I already admire them, I just don't want to talk to them at > the moment :-) > Reg > Tony Renshaw > Sydney Australia > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:03:14 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Europa-List: Teflon 666 hose --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton At 23:56 26/04/2003 -0700, you wrote: >So, here is my question, Has any one had any experience with using this >type of >hose with the jubilee + nipple style of fitting as on the Europa. I am >suspicious >that the Teflon will not compress enough and it won't seal very well. >I'd appreciate folks thoughts and experiences on this. > >Thanks, Paul I had a similar worry but mine was that the Teflon would creep with age and the clamping pressure might reduce. Does Teflon have any elasticity? Graham --- ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:17:44 AM PST US From: Tony Renshaw Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel Gauge Installation Problem --> Europa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw Brian, I am hoping that the Hermetite Gold Sealant that others have talked about will do the trick. I may be able to tighten the studs up a bit tighter, but I am glad that I haven't done it to date as I can now undo everything and apply the sealant. Thanks for your input. Reg Tony Renshaw Sydney Australia At 08:52 AM 4/27/2003 +0100, you wrote: >--> Europa-List message posted by: "Brian Davies" > >Tony, >I had the problem of a significant angle at the tank seam. The seam was >over an inch below the outer edges of the tank. The distortion looked like >it was impossible to obtain a good seal so I spoke to Neville at the >factory. He said the the tank was very flexible and would go flat when I >tightened up the bolts. He was correct and it did not leak. I was able, >however, to tighten the bolts enough to squeeze the rubber gasket, so I >didnt have that part of your problem. > >Brian Davies kit 454 >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Tony Renshaw" >To: ; >Subject: Europa-List: Fuel Gauge Installation Problem > > >> --> Europa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw > >> >> Gidday, >> I have installed the magnetic fuel gauge as per the instructions exactly. >I >> have a problem that the hole for the tank fitting is at the union of 2 >> surfaces, either side of the seam. The angle is quite noticeable and it is >> definitely not flat. Suffice to say, when I tighten up the 5 anchorage >> screws I have a distortion of the plastic flange that supports the female >> boss for the probe. The good news is that the female boss is quite thick, >> and I reckon it will not distort over time, but the distortion of the >> plastic flange over time may create some stress tears. When tightening up >> the studs,the rubber gaskets are hardly distorted, so I can only presume >> that the length of the studs might be such that they are botttoming out. I >> may put a 916-10L washer under each to see if I can get them to nip up a >> bit more. So where is the problem? I left the tank about 1/2 full for >ages, >> and noticed a small amount of moisture around the rubber gasket, which I >> can only presume is fuel. The flange I can distort with finger pressure >> between any 2 studs such that I can squeeze down on it and close up a >gape. >> I am considering using the Hermetite Gold sealant but I am now worried to >> install it when I know things may not be perfect. Lets face it, its a long >> time installed!!! (I hope). Has anyone had these problems, or any other >> problems with these installations? I don't want to know about people who >> worked out the problem before installing the hole in the tank as per the >> instructions. I already admire them, I just don't want to talk to them at >> the moment :-) >> Reg >> Tony Renshaw >> Sydney Australia >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:25:03 AM PST US From: Tony Renshaw Subject: Re: Europa-List: Teflon 666 hose --> Europa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw Paul, I have researched the teflon option a little bit, and I know that there are specific fittings for it. Go to http://www.speedflow.com.au/ Quote: "All Speedflow hose ends are reuseable type not only for convenience but they are also more effective than crimp type as they mechanically clamp the wire independant of the seal on the Teflon tube". Series 200 hose is the Teflon type. Bloody expensive. One single end fitting made up of 3 pieces was $50.00 AUD, and the equivalent JIC/AN fittings for Bundy tube was $20.00 give or take. This cost does not include the flairing tool, which is about $150 AUD from Spruce etc. , but by the time you make a significant no of joints I'm sure the Bundy is the cheapest option. Reg Tony Renshaw Sydney Australia P.S. Anyway, I wouldn't have anything with a 666 suffix in my plane -). The EGT in the jet often hovers around this figure and I always go through my recalls. :-) choose what you want and give me a yell. I have a contact at a distributorship of these products and can forward them on if you like. Reg Tony RenshawAt 12:37 AM 4/28/2003 +0100, you wrote: >--> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton > >At 23:56 26/04/2003 -0700, you wrote: >>So, here is my question, Has any one had any experience with using this >>type of >>hose with the jubilee + nipple style of fitting as on the Europa. I am >>suspicious >>that the Teflon will not compress enough and it won't seal very well. >>I'd appreciate folks thoughts and experiences on this. >> >>Thanks, Paul > >I had a similar worry but mine was that the Teflon would creep with age and >the clamping pressure might reduce. Does Teflon have any elasticity? >Graham > > >--- > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:01:50 PM PST US From: "Nigel Charles" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Alternator output measurement --> Europa-List message posted by: "Nigel Charles" > Does anybody know of a good way to measure the output of the alternator to > determine how close I am to using up all the capacity of that thing under > various conditions? I would even like to display that in the aircraft on a > permanent basis, if it is at all possible.< Just put an ammeter in the alternator output lead. The straightforward but laborious way is to wire in a shunt for a conventional ammeter to read across. An easier way is to use a sender which surrounds the alternator output wire like they do in the RMI uMonitor. Whether you can buy an individual ammeter with a remote sender like this I don't know but if you already have a uMonitor it would be very simple. Nigel Charles ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:39:28 PM PST US From: Fred Fillinger Subject: Re: Europa-List: Alternator output measurement --> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Fillinger > Does anybody know of a good way to measure the output of the alternator to > determine how close I am to using up all the capacity of that thing under > various conditions? I would even like to display that in the aircraft on a > permanent basis, if it is at all possible. > > Thanks, > Dave > A227 Mini U2 A voltmeter across the battery provides a rough idea. For a given RPM, switching things on should should show the same volts meaning that whatever available extra current is charging the battery. A quickie ammeter check is a digital voltmeter, with a 200.0 millivolt scale, across the length of the positive battery cable. That presumes alt output is not connected directly to the battery, else move it temporarily upstream. #4 wire will show .00025 mV for each amp for each foot. Of significance is that the cable end farthest from the battery is more positive than at the batt. A larger drop is obtained by idling for a while with all loads on, then if the minus sign on the voltmeter is showing, observe at what RPM it extinguishes. Regards, Fred F. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:00:10 PM PST US From: "J R \(Bob\) Gowing" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Painting flaps --> Europa-List message posted by: "J R \(Bob\) Gowing" Paul I have not done any painting but I would clamp 2 pieces of say 3" x 2" projecting from bench to just encoompass the length of a flap. Then bolt the flap between the wood pieces tightly enough to support the weight so that you can have either the bottom side of the flap or top side of the flap outward for spraying. I have just thought that the hinge pieces are not at the extremities so you could put a piece of rod through the hinge holes and those in the pieces of wood and support the weight by holding the the flaps up with sticks from floor into the ends of the flap closeouts. JR (Bob) Gowing, Kit 327 in Oz ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: Europa-List: Painting flaps > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" > > Hi all, > > I am looking for ideas on how to support the flaps for painting. > > Paul > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:33:02 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Teflon 666 hose From: James Nelson --> Europa-List message posted by: James Nelson Graham, Teflon has no memory. That is why it is surrounded by a rubber hose. This is clamped with the screw clamp and I've got almost 40 hours on my hose and no hint of any leakage. Jim Nelson N15JN On Mon, 28 Apr 2003 00:37:07 +0100 Graham Singleton writes: > --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton > > > At 23:56 26/04/2003 -0700, you wrote: > >So, here is my question, Has any one had any experience with using > this > >type of > >hose with the jubilee + nipple style of fitting as on the Europa. > I am > >suspicious > >that the Teflon will not compress enough and it won't seal very > well. > >I'd appreciate folks thoughts and experiences on this. > > > >Thanks, Paul > > I had a similar worry but mine was that the Teflon would creep with > age and > the clamping pressure might reduce. Does Teflon have any > elasticity? > Graham > > > --- > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:45:47 PM PST US From: Fred Fillinger Subject: Re: Europa-List: Alternator output measurement --> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Fillinger > #4 wire will show .00025 mV for each amp for each foot. Oops. Should be .25mV, or .00025V. I wrote 250 microvolts originally and changed it so someone wouldn't mess it up like I then did. Whatever, the reading on the multimeter will be usable for the purpose in the orig post. Best, Fred F. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:13:40 PM PST US From: "Steve Hagar" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mounting fuel pumps --> Europa-List message posted by: "Steve Hagar" Kevin: Yes the 303-6 hose clamps up nicely to the pump outlet. I bought a mandral from Wicks Aircraft it is $10 cheaper than the unit in AC Spruce. This is not a recommended tool as noted in the AC Spruce catalog it is a required tool if you are to install the fittings right. The fittings go in so tight to the hose that it really inspires confidence in the integrity of the joint. I was originally told that the 914 pumps had check valves in them. Upon obtaining them and investigating by pumping gasoline from one backwards into the other this was found not to be the case. So make sure you account for this and install some check valves. Just don't buy them from Wicks. I got a pair and they have been sitting around since 1959! (just about as old as me). These things were real relics. I now know how things were packaged befor plastic was real popular. There was no problems with Wicks taking them back and crediting me. I even gave them the opportunity to send me some newer ones but they said all of the ones they had were that old. They must have gotten a good deal from some govt surplus sale. Using this hose and fittings is indeed not cheap. Its easy to burn a C-note and just get started with the job. I was talking to Erich Trombley who just launched his plane recently about fuel systems and he has come up with a novel way to implement a fuel totalizer without having to have a flow sensor on the return line. If I understand it right He put a "T" upstream of both pump inlets and hooked the return line into the supply line. Then he put a check valve ahead of this so that the fuel can't be pumped back into the tank. He's got quite a few hours on the plane now and says the fuel burn indications are right on the money. I may try this out after getting a heads up from him after some extended usage. Steve A143 Mesa, AZ > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Kevin Klinefelter" > > Steve, Did you fit the 303 hose on the pumps outlets and hose clamp them? > Did you get the aeroquip mandrel for the 491 fittings? > The 303 looks like a very good choice, better be for the price eh? > I too am trying to get this wrapped up before the top goes on. I just got > word that my 914 is on its way! John Hurst kindly sent me a retired fuel > pump to help get this plumbing madness figured out. I'd be glad to pass it > on if anybody could use a model 914 pump. > Thanks, Kevin Klinefelter A211 > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Steve Hagar > To: Europa-List@Matronics. Com > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mounting fuel pumps > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Steve Hagar" > > > Kevin: > > I just finished my fuel system prior to putting the top on. To mount the > fuel pump I took a piece of .090 aluminum sheet about 2"X4". Put a nutplate > in it for the hose clamp that comes with the pumps. I spaced it off of the > bottom of the fuselage floor with a couple of small pieces of foam to give > the screw clearance and filled and bonded the remaining space with some > redux and flox. I mounted one pump like that the other pumps clamp was > bolted through one of the plywood bulkheads for the baggage bay. That way > the pumps are spaced apart far enough apart to put a t between them and not > have a tight bend radius bewteen the hoses. Both pumps are still visible > when I remove the left baggage access panel. > > I stayed away from using barbs on the pressurized side of the fuel system > (other than the barb on the pump's outlets) I used Aeroquip 303 hose and > the 491 flared hose fittings. You need a hacksaw to cut this stuff, whereas > you can clip the Europa supplied stainless braided hose with a set of dykes! > > Steve Hagar > A143 > Mesa, AZ > > > [Original Message] > > From: Kevin Klinefelter > > To: Europa-List@Matronics. Com > > Date: 3/1/03 12:30:24 PM > > Subject: Europa-List: Mounting fuel pumps > > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Kevin Klinefelter" > > > > Hi all, does anyone have good way of mounting the 914 fuel pumps to the > > floor behind the baggage bay? > > Also, I have the Andair mini gascolator and fitted a 1/2" hose barb to > the > > outlet. The next connector will be a tee of 1/2" barbs to split off to > the 2 > > fuel pumps. This eliminates the need for the 2 J1006 reducers. I found a > > nylon tee fitting that will work, but I'd rather get a metal one like the > > WTP002 provided in the kit. Anyone know where to get a 1/2" hose barb Tee > > fitting that is not plastic? I'm trying to reduce the number of > connections > > as much as possible. > > > > > > > --- Steve Hagar > --- hagargs@earthlink.net > > > > > --- Steve Hagar --- hagargs@earthlink.net