Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:16 AM - double mail (jean-philippe_neel@mail.schneider.fr)
2. 06:32 AM - Re: Static when refueling? (Fred Fillinger)
3. 06:33 AM - Re: Ampreg 22 (Fergus Kyle)
4. 06:36 AM - Re: Static when refueling? (Fred Fillinger)
5. 07:29 AM - Re: Static when refueling? (Peter Zutrauen)
6. 07:47 AM - Re: Static when refueling? (James Nelson)
7. 07:47 AM - Re: Static when refueling? (James Nelson)
8. 08:35 AM - Any one got a phone number for Matthew Leach (UK)? (Peter Lawless)
9. 09:45 AM - Re: Static when refueling? (Miles McCallum)
10. 10:02 AM - Re: Any one got a phone number for Matthew Leach (UK)? (Gavin and Anne)
11. 10:50 AM - Profiling & Filling Wings (Chuck Popenoe)
12. 12:47 PM - Re: Static when refueling? (Fred Fillinger)
13. 03:54 PM - Re: Any one got a phone number for Matthew Leach (UK)? (Peter Lawless)
Message 1
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22, 2000) at 12/05/2003 13:16:45,
MIME-CD complete at 12/05/2003 13:16:45,
Serialize by Router on ATEU0255.EUD.Schneider-Electric.com/T/SVR/Schneider(Release
5.0.9 |November 16, 2001) at 05/12/2003 01:12:16 PM,
Itemize by SMTP Server on AXEU0010.eud.schneider-electric.com/X/SVR/SEIxtra(Release
6.0.1|February 07, 2003) at 12/05/2003 13:15:27,
Serialize by Router on AXEU0010.eud.schneider-electric.com/X/SVR/SEIxtra(Release
6.0.1|February 07, 2003) at 12/05/2003 13:16:00,
Serialize complete at 12/05/2003 13:16:00
--> Europa-List message posted by: jean-philippe_neel@mail.schneider.fr
---------------------- Envoye par Jean-Philippe Neel/FR/Schneider le
12/05/2003 13:14 ---------------------------
Veuillez rpondre europa-list@matronics.com
Envoy par : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
Pour : europa-list@matronics.com
cc :
Objet : Europa-List: double mail
--> Europa-List message posted by: jean-philippe_neel@mail.schneider.fr
---------------------- Envoye par Jean-Philippe Neel/FR/Schneider le
28/04/2003 08:57 ---------------------------
Veuillez rpondre europa-list@matronics.com
Envoy par : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
Pour : <europa-list@matronics.com>
cc :
Objet : double mail
Bonjour
I receive every mail twice with the same adress from matronics
Could you please have a look on this problem and give me instructions if I
have some thing to do
Merci
JPN
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Static when refueling? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Fillinger <fillinger@ameritech.net>
> I plan also on putting a metal braid down the filler opening into the
> tank and connecting to Graham's aluminum tank outlet fitting. I plan on
> Alum pipe runs which will ultimately be grounded to the engine ground.
>
I don't think that will do anything. The sloshing of fuel against the
sides of nonconductive plastic container can accumulate a static charge
on the surface of the plastic - a capacitor. Fuel is bad enough of a
conductor (much worse than water) to function as the dielectric of a
capacitor. But enough of a dielectric relative to fuel-air vapor so that
a capacitance fuel probe works. If fuel were enough of a conductor to
prevent static buildup during refueling, then the probe wouldn't be just
a leaky capacitor, but a shorted one, and it wouldn't work at all!
Regards,
Fred F.
Message 3
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
Tony,
Don't know how quickly you expect reply, but David is in Canada at
the present and advertised a show somewhere soon so may be out of order for a
while.
Ferg
I forwarded your plea to his home address.
----- Original Message -----
From: Tony Renshaw
To: david.cripps@spsystems.com ; europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 11:29 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Ampreg 22
--> Europa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw@ozemail.com.au>
Calling David Cripps,
I am wondering if you have received any of my e-mails concerning Ampreg 22
in my Europa build? Anyone knowing how I can get in touch with him via
private e-mail, I'd appreciate it.
Reg
Tony Renshaw
Sydney Australia
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Static when refueling? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Fillinger <fillinger@ameritech.net>
> I would recommend that the breather pipe should be solid aluminium, 3/8"
> dia. not 1/4 and that it, the filler cap assembly and the funnel or other
> apparatus used to refuel should be kept grounded together.
That may be beneficial, but I'm not sure why. It will provide a
conductive path to the giant capacitor (the tank), but I wonder if
there'd be a greater hazard - anytime, not just in refueling - where
bringing one's hand near enough the metal fuel vent triggers a spark if
there's enough vapor there. At least there's nothing in FAA guidance
that fuel vents be conductive and grounded to airframe. In fact, they
imply the exact opposite with ref to lightning protection -- that a fuel
tank vent not be a conductive path to the fuel.
Regards,
Fred F.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Static when refueling? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Zutrauen" <peterz@zutrasoft.com>
Good point.... I didn't think it through correctly. Maybe I can blame it
on a lack of a morning coffee. At least the filler cap ring (is it metal
on the optional metal filler cap?) would be connected to the engine
ground so one could use the exhaust pipe for the grounding lead,
allowing one to make the initial connection a good distance away from
any vapours. The area that the filler spout would be in contact with
would then be at the same potential. An external connection to the
filler cap ring would work just as well I guess based on your insightful
post.
Cheers & thanks,
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: Fred Fillinger [mailto:fillinger@ameritech.net]
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Static when refueling?
--> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Fillinger
<fillinger@ameritech.net>
> I plan also on putting a metal braid down the filler opening into the
> tank and connecting to Graham's aluminum tank outlet fitting. I plan
on
> Alum pipe runs which will ultimately be grounded to the engine ground.
>
I don't think that will do anything. The sloshing of fuel against the
sides of nonconductive plastic container can accumulate a static charge
on the surface of the plastic - a capacitor. Fuel is bad enough of a
conductor (much worse than water) to function as the dielectric of a
capacitor. But enough of a dielectric relative to fuel-air vapor so that
a capacitance fuel probe works. If fuel were enough of a conductor to
prevent static buildup during refueling, then the probe wouldn't be just
a leaky capacitor, but a shorted one, and it wouldn't work at all!
Regards,
Fred F.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Static when refueling? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: James Nelson <europajim@juno.com>
Thanks Fred, oh great Guru, :-))
Your right, but I wanted everything I could get to drain off any
charge.
Jim Nelson
N15JN
On Mon, 12 May 2003 09:31:44 -0400 Fred Fillinger
<fillinger@ameritech.net> writes:
> --> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Fillinger
> <fillinger@ameritech.net>
>
> > I plan also on putting a metal braid down the filler opening into
> the
> > tank and connecting to Graham's aluminum tank outlet fitting. I
> plan on
> > Alum pipe runs which will ultimately be grounded to the engine
> ground.
> >
>
> I don't think that will do anything. The sloshing of fuel against
> the
> sides of nonconductive plastic container can accumulate a static
> charge
> on the surface of the plastic - a capacitor. Fuel is bad enough of
> a
> conductor (much worse than water) to function as the dielectric of a
>
> capacitor. But enough of a dielectric relative to fuel-air vapor so
> that
> a capacitance fuel probe works. If fuel were enough of a conductor
> to
> prevent static buildup during refueling, then the probe wouldn't be
> just
> a leaky capacitor, but a shorted one, and it wouldn't work at all!
>
> Regards,
> Fred F.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Static when refueling? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: James Nelson <europajim@juno.com>
The point for a grounding tab located just underneath the fuel filling
area on the belly, is convience. Along with the tab is both fuel
draining valves. If it is to much trouble to hookup a ground, then it
won't be done. By having a tab for grounding very close by and hooked up
before you open the system, there is less chance for problems. Keep it
convienent and it becomes good habit.
Jim Nelson
On Mon, 12 May 2003 10:28:31 -0400 "Peter Zutrauen"
<peterz@zutrasoft.com> writes:
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Zutrauen"
> <peterz@zutrasoft.com>
>
> Good point.... I didn't think it through correctly. Maybe I can
> blame it
> on a lack of a morning coffee. At least the filler cap ring (is it
> metal
> on the optional metal filler cap?) would be connected to the engine
> ground so one could use the exhaust pipe for the grounding lead,
> allowing one to make the initial connection a good distance away
> from
> any vapours. The area that the filler spout would be in contact
> with
> would then be at the same potential. An external connection to the
> filler cap ring would work just as well I guess based on your
> insightful
> post.
>
> Cheers & thanks,
> Pete
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Fred Fillinger [mailto:fillinger@ameritech.net]
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Static when refueling?
>
> --> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Fillinger
> <fillinger@ameritech.net>
>
> > I plan also on putting a metal braid down the filler opening into
> the
> > tank and connecting to Graham's aluminum tank outlet fitting. I
> plan
> on
> > Alum pipe runs which will ultimately be grounded to the engine
> ground.
> >
>
> I don't think that will do anything. The sloshing of fuel against
> the
> sides of nonconductive plastic container can accumulate a static
> charge
> on the surface of the plastic - a capacitor. Fuel is bad enough of
> a
> conductor (much worse than water) to function as the dielectric of a
>
> capacitor. But enough of a dielectric relative to fuel-air vapor so
> that
>
> a capacitance fuel probe works. If fuel were enough of a conductor
> to
> prevent static buildup during refueling, then the probe wouldn't be
> just
>
> a leaky capacitor, but a shorted one, and it wouldn't work at all!
>
> Regards,
> Fred F.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Any one got a phone number for Matthew Leach (UK)? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Lawless" <pete@lawless.info>
Hi All
Has any one got a phone number for Matthew Leach, who offers an interior
trimming service for Europas. I have a price list and a set of samples that
he provided to Dave Hunter at Kemble but no contact details.
Thanks
Pete
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Static when refueling? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Miles McCallum" <milesm@avnet.co.uk>
My understanding is that the major source of static potential comes from the
passage of the airframe through the air - so grounding the refuelling rig or
can to the area around the cap (before taking it off) - and giving it time
for the charge to dissapate - is all that is required. In an extreme case,
wiping it down with a damp rag helps too.
The fuel air mixture inside the tank is much too rich to support
combustion - something once proved to me by a total manic, who demonstrated
it by flicking lighted matches into the filler on a car. (second time
around, everyone hit he deck....)
Miles
Message 10
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| Subject: | Any one got a phone number for Matthew Leach (UK)? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Gavin and Anne" <gavanne@onetel.net.uk>
Try 01872 571724.......I've just ordered a kit off him for myself...
Cheers
Gavin Lee.........#355
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter
Lawless
Subject: Europa-List: Any one got a phone number for Matthew Leach (UK)?
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Lawless" <pete@lawless.info>
Hi All
Has any one got a phone number for Matthew Leach, who offers an interior
trimming service for Europas. I have a price list and a set of samples
that
he provided to Dave Hunter at Kemble but no contact details.
Thanks
Pete
Message 11
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"Tony Krzyzewski" <tonyk@kaon.co.nz>
| Subject: | Profiling & Filling Wings |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Chuck Popenoe" <cpops@verizon.net>
Hi Tony K.-
Tony, could you elaborate a bit on how you are profiling the filler strips
on your classic wings? Are you actually using an airfoil profile pattern or
something simple like a spline and straightedges? I'm not looking forward
to doing this job, but would like to benefit as much as possible from those
whom have gone before!
Thanks!
Pops
A036
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Static when refueling? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Fillinger <fillinger@ameritech.net>
> --> Europa-List message posted by: James Nelson <europajim@juno.com>
>
> Thanks Fred, oh great Guru, :-))
> Your right, but I wanted everything I could get to drain off any
> charge.
>
> Jim Nelson
> N15JN
Your point is not invalid, as I just looked up (which gurus wouldn't
need to do!). FAA says that conductive things exposed to fuel inside
nonconductive tanks do shorten the time for self-discharge to naturally
occur. However, it's insufficient to prevent buildup during refueling.
Where fuel is being sent down a filler pipe, the preventative measure
is merely large pipe to reduce flow velocity.
However, lightning protection is important also, and one method to
obtain certification of composite aircraft is total electrical isolation
of the tank. The means no electrical fuel level senders, metal vent
lines which terminate in a conductive something extending from the
airframe, grounding wires, or even a metal fuel line which is grounded
or within arcing distance of electrical wiring or control systems. This
also can mean the filler opening too (which should be grounded of
course), where there is a run of filler pipe to the tank, but a
suggested solution is to interrupt conductive pipe with section(s) of
nonconductive hose. Since aircraft are refueled far more often than
exposed to lighting strikes, I guess what they're saying is that static
inside the tank is harmless in fueling operations. Mixture's just too
rich in normal ambient temps -- well discussed in gov't report on the
tank explosion on TWA 800.
Regards,
Fred F.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Any one got a phone number for Matthew Leach (UK)? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Lawless" <pete@lawless.info>
Thanks will call him tomorrow.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gavin and
Anne
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Any one got a phone number for Matthew Leach
(UK)?
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Gavin and Anne" <gavanne@onetel.net.uk>
Try 01872 571724.......I've just ordered a kit off him for myself...
Cheers
Gavin Lee.........#355
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter
Lawless
Subject: Europa-List: Any one got a phone number for Matthew Leach (UK)?
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Lawless" <pete@lawless.info>
Hi All
Has any one got a phone number for Matthew Leach, who offers an interior
trimming service for Europas. I have a price list and a set of samples
that
he provided to Dave Hunter at Kemble but no contact details.
Thanks
Pete
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