Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:06 AM - Survival (david joyce)
2. 03:40 AM - Fuel In, Braid in / Inflight, Braid Out (Tony Renshaw)
3. 04:25 AM - Braid In, Fuel In / Inflight Braid Out???? (Tony Renshaw)
4. 08:01 AM - Re: Fuel In, Braid in / Inflight, Braid Out (Fred Fillinger)
5. 08:29 AM - EIS Coolant connection (KARL HEINDL)
6. 08:35 AM - Mogas (KARL HEINDL)
7. 11:24 AM - Re: Mogas (Terry Seaver)
8. 12:58 PM - Re: Survival (Nigel Charles)
9. 02:20 PM - Re: EIS Coolant connection (Gerald Rehn)
10. 06:35 PM - Re: EIS Coolant connection (James Nelson)
11. 06:35 PM - Re: Fuel In, Braid in / Inflight, Braid Out (James Nelson)
12. 06:35 PM - Tunnel Cable Guides (ScramIt@aol.com)
13. 11:45 PM - Re: Mogas (Nigel Charles)
Message 1
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "david joyce" <davidjoyce@beeb.net>
Nigel, Thanks for your reply. I do hope my message has not caused any offence.
I really do feel that it is a subject that merits discussion, and I hope others
will join in.
It would not be surprising of course if a Survival Equipment firm thought
it a good idea for folk to buy survival kit.
I assume that your friend was flying something a bit less seaworthy than
a Europa, and find it difficult to imagine that a Europa would sink in 2 mins
unless you hit the water so hard that you knocked the wings off, in which
case you would probably be beyond worrying about sinking.
The figures for only 50% surviving the ditching are widely quoted, but
do you have the detail? How many of these were in mid Ocean, or polar waters
rather than the Channel? How many were in light aircraft equippped with a dinghy?
It would be nice to know what the figures are for the sort of situation we
are equipping ourselves for, rather than world figures that no doubt include
people flying in the vilest conditions (which may have triggered the ditching)
in totally inhospitable places. Regards, David
Message 2
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| Subject: | Fuel In, Braid in / Inflight, Braid Out |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw@ozemail.com.au>
Fred and co,
Between you and Brian I think the best option might be to dangle the lead down
during refuelling, and pull it out again for flight. Would you agree that is
the best optioin, and if not, what are you doing or going to do with your a/c?
As I recall you are going diesel with a significantly lower flash point,
volatility, so maybe your fuel type dictates you don't need to worry, but what
if you were using a 914 and MOGAS???
Reg
Tony Renshaw
Sydney Australia
At 09:29 AM 5/14/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>--> Europa-List message posted by: Brian Rauchfuss - PCD
><brauchfu@pcocd2.intel.com>
>
>> --> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Fillinger <fillinger@ameritech.net>
>
>> That would be braid dangling inside the tank, wired to electrical
>> ground? It won't do anything during refueling to suppress static
>> charges, since fuel is essentially nonconductive.
>
>It is because fuel has a low conductivity that the braid is required! A
>great deal of the static created in a nonconductive tank is due to the
>turbulence of the non-conductive fluid as it flows down the refill pipe.
>There is a very interesting experiment where distilled water is flowed
>between two tanks that are insulated from each other. A spark gap between
>the tanks will start sparking as the charge builds.
>
>The braid bleeds off the charge as the fuel flows around it - the close
>contact between the two is required due to the low conductivity of fuel.
>The main goal is to prevent any sparks from occuring near the filling point,
>where the mixture can be low enough to support combustion - the center of the
>tank has too rich a mixture.
>
>> FAA is clear about the lightning hazard problem with composite A/C. The
>
>Perhaps making the braid removable would solve the lightning problem?
>Lightning is such bad news (as well as icing and severe turbulence which tend
>to go along with it) that I plan to stay far away from thunderstorms and
>associated weather.
>
>Brian
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Braid In, Fuel In / Inflight Braid Out???? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw@ozemail.com.au>
Fred and co,
Between you and Brian I think the best option might be to dangle the lead down
during refuelling, and pull it out again for flight. Would you agree that is
the best optioin, and if not, what are you doing or going to do with your a/c?
As I recall you are going diesel with a significantly lower flash point,
volatility, so maybe your fuel type dictates you don't need to worry, but what
if you were using a 914 and MOGAS???
Reg
Tony Renshaw
Sydney Australia
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel In, Braid in / Inflight, Braid Out |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Fillinger <fillinger@ameritech.net>
> Fred and co,
>
> Between you and Brian I think the best option might be to dangle the lead down
> during refuelling, and pull it out again for flight. Would you agree that is
> the best optioin, and if not, what are you doing or going to do with your a/c?
> As I recall you are going diesel with a significantly lower flash point,
> volatility, so maybe your fuel type dictates you don't need to worry, but what
> if you were using a 914 and MOGAS???
> Reg
> Tony Renshaw
> Sydney Australia
I have 914.
A wire braid connected to a metal fuel opening does nothing where safe
fueling practices aren't followed - bond grounded filler opening to fuel
source, source metal tank to earth also. I think we first need just one
documented case where a fire still occurred despite safe practices,
which would be solely from static downstream of the filler opening.
FAA says one fix is to make a filler pipe big. Appears to me Europa did
that, with restriction as it enters tank, reducing flow velocity in the
pipe to a small value. The Mk 1 is fat one; the distance on the XS
design is short.
In fact, does Europa now say to ground the metal filler opening? Didn't
originally.
Best,
Fred F.
Message 5
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| Subject: | EIS Coolant connection |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "KARL HEINDL" <kheindl@msn.com>
I have the model 2000 EIS from Grand Rapids and a coolant probe which came
as a kit from
Skydrive.
I now discover that the coolant temperature is not being indicated. It shows
15 (C) permanently.
I have only one wire from the probe going to pin 24. What am I doing wrong?
Cheers, Karl
Overloaded with spam? With MSN 8, you can filter it out
Message 6
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "KARL HEINDL" <kheindl@msn.com>
I am sure this topic must have been covered to death, but I am again reading
a PFA circular from
2001 which quotes that the tank temperature must not exceed 20 C, and the
altitude must be
below 6000 feet. Not much use for anyone flying in the Denver area.
I don't want to use Avgas because it just opens up another can of worms and
is a lot more
expensive. My engine is 912S.
Any comments, anyone ?
Cheers, Karl
http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger
Message 7
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--> Europa-List message posted by: Terry Seaver <terrys@cisco.com>
Hi Karl,
We have been flying N135TD for two years, 250 hours, on MoGas (mostly). We
occasionally use AvGas when on trips, where MoGas is not available. We fly out
of Livermore, California, which is near sea level, with temps as high as 40 C.
We regularly fly over the Sierra Nevada mountain range at altitudes in excess of
13,000 feet, and fly in and out of fields 4,000 feet and above on days with
temps up to 40 C.
We have an XS with 912S, with the Europa standard fuel return mechanism. We
have had two problems we suspect are due to the volatility of MoGas, as follows:
1) We have had warm start problems we believe are caused by fuel boiling in the
carb float bowls. This is improved by shutting off our Skydrive carb heat before
taxiing back from landing (I strongly recommend carb heat for the 912S with XS
cowl), and by opening the coolant inspection door in the cowl after engine
shutdown.
2) We believe we have had vapor lock right after takeoff, only following a warm
start, and only in the winter time (more volatiles in the winter formulations of
MoGas?). The roughness goes away a lower throttle settings, and usually clears
out after a while. We may have that cured now with some additional fuel system
insulation under the cowl, but won't be sure until next winter.
regards,
Terry Seaver
KARL HEINDL wrote:
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "KARL HEINDL" <kheindl@msn.com>
>
> I am sure this topic must have been covered to death, but I am again reading
> a PFA circular from
> 2001 which quotes that the tank temperature must not exceed 20 C, and the
> altitude must be
> below 6000 feet. Not much use for anyone flying in the Denver area.
> I don't want to use Avgas because it just opens up another can of worms and
> is a lot more
> expensive. My engine is 912S.
>
> Any comments, anyone ?
>
> Cheers, Karl
Message 8
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Nigel Charles" <nigelcharles@tiscali.co.uk>
>It would not be surprising of course if a Survival Equipment firm thought
it a good idea for folk to buy survival kit.<
Yes, however they could have easily used the situation to advise the
purchase of a dinghy instead, making them even more money. Their advice was
that if you are only going to buy a dinghy or survival suits then the best
option is survival suits. You know they are going to work. They also point
out that in some ditching cases it was not possible to get the dinghy out of
the aircraft in time.
> I assume that your friend was flying something a bit less
seaworthy than a Europa, and find it difficult to imagine that a Europa
would sink in 2 mins unless you hit the water so hard that you knocked the
wings off, in which case you would probably be beyond worrying about
sinking.<
Quite right but having done sea survival training I can assure you that in
anything other than flat calm coping with the survival tasks is not as
straightforward as it seems. It is quite possible for a wing to dig into a
wave on touchdown and be ripped off. The fuselage could then easily fill
with water whilst tipped on its side. Escaping from a semi submerged
fuselage in a typical English Channel swell could be awkward enough let
alone removing the dinghy and inflating it. Although my Classic Europa has
foam wings the XS does not and there is no guarantee that it will remain
afloat once the wings have filled with water assuming they were still
attached.
>The figures for only 50% surviving the ditching are widely quoted, but do
you have the detail? How many of these were in mid Ocean, or polar waters
rather than the Channel? How many were in light aircraft equipped with a
dinghy? It would be nice to know what the figures are for the sort of
situation we are equipping ourselves for, rather than world figures that no
doubt include people flying in the vilest conditions (which may have
triggered the ditching) in totally inhospitable places. <
I have no further info on this but it is interesting that a fit adult
immersed in the English Channel for 35 minutes at the best time of year was
not far from expiring. This is bad enough without considering worse
scenarios.
Finally I did not raise this issue on the forum. If David wishes to just
use a liferaft then that is fine by me. I am happy with my decision. I am
sure others will make their own judgements on this topic.
Nigel Charles
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: EIS Coolant connection |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Gerald Rehn <rehn@rockisland.com>
on 5/15/03 8:29 AM, KARL HEINDL at kheindl@msn.com wrote:
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "KARL HEINDL" <kheindl@msn.com>
>
>
> I have the model 2000 EIS from Grand Rapids and a coolant probe which came
> as a kit from
> Skydrive.
> I now discover that the coolant temperature is not being indicated. It shows
> 15 (C) permanently.
> I have only one wire from the probe going to pin 24. What am I doing wrong?
>
> Cheers, Karl
>
> Overloaded with spam? With MSN 8, you can filter it out
>
>
>
>
>
>
Some have a second wire from the probe that goes to ground. Regards Jerry
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: EIS Coolant connection |
--> Europa-List message posted by: James Nelson <europajim@juno.com>
Karl,
You did provide a ground for the thermocouple didn't you ???
I've done that when I installed my big alternator and did not provide a
good (big) ground to the engine mounting frame. After that it worked
great. Just like if you remote the oil sender. You must ground the body
or it won't work. I remoted it to keep the vibration failures
nonexistent. Early oil senders failed with engine vibration. Check
other aircraft and see that they mount the oil pressure sender, fuel
pressure sender ect. on a manifold bolted to the fire wall and separate
from the engine.
Jim Nelson
On Thu, 15 May 2003 16:29:05 +0100 "KARL HEINDL" <kheindl@msn.com>
writes:
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "KARL HEINDL" <kheindl@msn.com>
>
>
> I have the model 2000 EIS from Grand Rapids and a coolant probe
> which came
> as a kit from
> Skydrive.
> I now discover that the coolant temperature is not being indicated.
> It shows
> 15 (C) permanently.
> I have only one wire from the probe going to pin 24. What am I doing
> wrong?
>
> Cheers, Karl
>
> Overloaded with spam? With MSN 8, you can filter it out
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel In, Braid in / Inflight, Braid Out |
--> Europa-List message posted by: James Nelson <europajim@juno.com>
Tony,
Put the braid in the system with a weight on the end to keep it
in place. If it doesn't help , it won't hurt either. Just one of those
things I felt I can do with rather than without. With out getting
bonkers, little things like that may help. I'll take my chances on using
the braid along with all the other points I have hooked up.
(BTW I grossed out at 890# with my full panel and extra alternator,
rudder electric trim ect.)
Jim Nelson
N15JN
On Thu, 15 May 2003 20:40:24 +1000 Tony Renshaw
<tonyrenshaw@ozemail.com.au> writes:
> --> Europa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw
> <tonyrenshaw@ozemail.com.au>
>
> Fred and co,
>
> Between you and Brian I think the best option might be to dangle the
> lead down
> during refuelling, and pull it out again for flight. Would you agree
> that is
> the best optioin, and if not, what are you doing or going to do with
> your a/c?
> As I recall you are going diesel with a significantly lower flash
> point,
> volatility, so maybe your fuel type dictates you don't need to
> worry, but what
> if you were using a 914 and MOGAS???
> Reg
> Tony Renshaw
> Sydney Australia
>
>
> At 09:29 AM 5/14/2003 -0700, you wrote:
> >--> Europa-List message posted by: Brian Rauchfuss - PCD
> ><brauchfu@pcocd2.intel.com>
> >
> >> --> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Fillinger
> <fillinger@ameritech.net>
> >
> >> That would be braid dangling inside the tank, wired to
> electrical
> >> ground? It won't do anything during refueling to suppress static
>
> >> charges, since fuel is essentially nonconductive.
> >
> >It is because fuel has a low conductivity that the braid is
> required! A
> >great deal of the static created in a nonconductive tank is due to
> the
> >turbulence of the non-conductive fluid as it flows down the refill
> pipe.
> >There is a very interesting experiment where distilled water is
> flowed
> >between two tanks that are insulated from each other. A spark gap
> between
> >the tanks will start sparking as the charge builds.
> >
> >The braid bleeds off the charge as the fuel flows around it - the
> close
> >contact between the two is required due to the low conductivity of
> fuel.
> >The main goal is to prevent any sparks from occuring near the
> filling point,
> >where the mixture can be low enough to support combustion - the
> center of the
> >tank has too rich a mixture.
> >
> >> FAA is clear about the lightning hazard problem with composite
> A/C. The
> >
> >Perhaps making the braid removable would solve the lightning
> problem?
> >Lightning is such bad news (as well as icing and severe turbulence
> which tend
> >to go along with it) that I plan to stay far away from
> thunderstorms and
> >associated weather.
> >
> >Brian
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Tunnel Cable Guides |
--> Europa-List message posted by: ScramIt@aol.com
I have the rudder cables connected to the rudder pedals as per plans. The
cables run straight from the CS21s to the cable pulleys. They skim the walls
and clear everything. I put the gear with wheel and brake on, and retracted,
still the cables clear. If I build the cable guides per plans the cables will
rub on the blocks and rub on the walls in several places. (it's the walls
that are the problem) I think I'm going to keep the cable straight and not
have the cables pulled outwards. The guides will be only 5 mm taller, I can't
think of anything that will rub on or hit them later on. I'm I missing
something?
Thanks,
SteveD.
Message 13
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Nigel Charles" <nigelcharles@tiscali.co.uk>
>We have had warm start problems we believe are caused by fuel boiling in
the
carb float bowls. This is improved by shutting off our Skydrive carb heat
before
taxiing back from landing (I strongly recommend carb heat for the 912S with
XS
cowl), and by opening the coolant inspection door in the cowl after engine
shutdown.<
It is interesting to note that fuel temperature just short of the port carb
will regularly reach 40degC after shutdown even in UK summer temperatures.
If a short turnaround is planned cooling can be aided by leaving the
inspection hatches open in the top cowl. Just remember to close them before
departure. If they are held fully open they should be visible during taxi if
they have been forgotten.
Nigel Charles
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