---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 05/16/03: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:54 AM - Re: Europa-List Tunnel Cable Guides (Nick Hammond) 2. 01:37 AM - Re: Fuel In, Braid in / Inflight, Braid Out (Norbert.P.Hoffmann@t-online.de (Norbert P. Hoffmann)) 3. 01:54 AM - club seminar full (DaveBuzz@aol.com) 4. 01:54 AM - Re: Survival suits (Runnymede73@aol.com) 5. 02:24 AM - Fuel In, Braid in / Inflight, Braid Out (Graham Singleton) 6. 02:34 AM - Diesel volatility (Graham Singleton) 7. 06:02 AM - Re: Re: Europa-List Tunnel Cable Guides (KARL HEINDL) 8. 09:46 AM - Winter ASI (Nigel Charles) 9. 01:40 PM - Re: Survival (Kevin Taylor) 10. 02:09 PM - Re: Survival () ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:54:34 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: RE: Europa-List Tunnel Cable Guides From: "Nick Hammond" --> Europa-List message posted by: "Nick Hammond" Steve, While it's obviously OK in the workshop, I would be a bit nervous about the effect of turbulent airflow in flight. Unless both feet are on the pedals, the cable tension is only as strong as the springs and it seems possible to me (on the basis of zero Europa flying experience!) that you could end up with the cable hooked over the brake as you were lowering or raising the gear. Not a good thing to happen. I know both feet would normally be on the pedals in such a situation but no sense in creating a hazard if you don't have to -- you don't get a lot of thinking time. If you think this is valid, one possibility might be to keep them as you have them but to add some sort of bracket either side of the tunnel abreast the wheel, with a loosely fitting guide to steady the cable. I ended up running the cable in nyloflow tubing between the pulleys and the pedal cross-bar for this reason (and because I share your dislike of the standard solution). Best regards, Nick Original Message: ----------------- Time: 06:35:36 PM PST US From: ScramIt@aol.com Subject: Europa-List: Tunnel Cable Guides --> Europa-List message posted by: ScramIt@aol.com I have the rudder cables connected to the rudder pedals as per plans. The cables run straight from the CS21s to the cable pulleys. They skim the walls and clear everything. I put the gear with wheel and brake on, and retracted, still the cables clear. If I build the cable guides per plans the cables will rub on the blocks and rub on the walls in several places. (it's the walls that are the problem) I think I'm going to keep the cable straight and not have the cables pulled outwards. The guides will be only 5 mm taller, I can't think of anything that will rub on or hit them later on. I'm I missing something? Thanks, SteveD. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:37:26 AM PST US From: Norbert.P.Hoffmann@t-online.de (Norbert P. Hoffmann) Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel In, Braid in / Inflight, Braid Out --> Europa-List message posted by: Norbert.P.Hoffmann@t-online.de (Norbert P. Hoffmann) Am Freitag, 16. Mai 2003 03:02 schrieben Sie: > --> Europa-List message posted by: James Nelson > > Tony, > Put the braid in the system with a weight on the end to keep it > in place. ........... snip Would an electrical connection between the aluminum filler ring and both fuel-outlets (and from there to the engine block) not be enough? This is what I did on D-EUPA. Norbert ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:54:09 AM PST US From: DaveBuzz@aol.com Subject: Europa-List: club seminar full --> Europa-List message posted by: DaveBuzz@aol.com Just a final reminder, the seminar is fully booked, all those going have been sent a joining email/letter. Just in case anyone was thinking of 'dropping in' for a day -please dont; there is no more room! thanks, dave do not archive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:54:20 AM PST US From: Runnymede73@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Survival suits --> Europa-List message posted by: Runnymede73@aol.com chances are that the europa will float after ditching probably nose down and pivoting on the wings my grob type (grp/carbon motor glider) did just that off the scillies. towed to the islands 10+ miles washed out refurbed and now flying again with a new engine and instruments bill dewey G-UILD ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:24:52 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Europa-List: Fuel In, Braid in / Inflight, Braid Out --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton At 23:56 15/05/2003 -0700, you wrote: >Fred and co, > >Between you and Brian I think the best option might be to dangle the lead down >during refuelling, and pull it out again for flight. Would you agree that is >the best optioin Tony I would go for the aluminium elbow at the bottom of the XS filler moulding, get some coarse mesh attached at the lower end, then ground the elbow with every other metal bit, including of course the filler cap. I don't feel happy about copper braid rattling around in the pipes. A few years down the airways bits may start dropping into the fuel. I know your gascolator will catch them but not everyone has an Andair. BTW are you still current on small aircraft? Or have you sold the Victa? You need to find an excuse to go flying with Kathy McLure! Graham --- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:34:39 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Europa-List: Diesel volatility --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton At 23:56 15/05/2003 -0700, you wrote: >As I recall you are going diesel with a significantly lower flash point, >volatility, so maybe your fuel type dictates you don't need to worry, but what >if you were using a 914 and MOGAS??? Trouble with Diesel, or more particularly Avtur, is that the fuel air mixture in the tank may well be explosive whereas with Mogas and Avgas the mixture is too rich to ignite. It is thought by some that we should ventilate the tank to get the mixture down below flammability. (Certainly in 747s and the like where they do have possible ignition sources inside the tank.) Using -6 Versatube for the in and out sections, blowing air in to the normal breather connection and out from one of the other tank connector NPT holes will provide some ventilation but whether it's enough I don't know. Wilksch recommends it anyway. IMHO the risk is relatively low with no electrical connections inside the tank. One should perhaps use either a pressure transducer or Jerry Davis' floating magnet/reed switch device for contents indication. Or indeed a sight gauge {:-) Graham --- ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:02:27 AM PST US From: "KARL HEINDL" Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: Europa-List Tunnel Cable Guides --> Europa-List message posted by: "KARL HEINDL" Steve, As Nick and many others I have the clear nylon tubes (from ACS or some hardware stores) from in front of the firewall to the pulleys, p-clipped to the tunnel sides. That way there is no interferenc anywhere. I have the tirgear and am using the tunnel with floor window also for baggage. Regards, Karl >From: "Nick Hammond" >Reply-To: europa-list@matronics.com >To: >Subject: Europa-List: RE: Europa-List Tunnel Cable Guides >Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 17:21:54 +0930 > >--> Europa-List message posted by: "Nick Hammond" > > >Steve, > >While it's obviously OK in the workshop, I would be a bit nervous about the >effect of turbulent airflow in flight. Unless both feet are on the pedals, >the cable tension is only as strong as the springs and it seems possible to >me (on the basis of zero Europa flying experience!) that you could end up >with the cable hooked over the brake as you were lowering or raising the >gear. Not a good thing to happen. I know both feet would normally be on >the pedals in such a situation but no sense in creating a hazard if you >don't have to -- you don't get a lot of thinking time. > >If you think this is valid, one possibility might be to keep them as you >have them but to add some sort of bracket either side of the tunnel abreast >the wheel, with a loosely fitting guide to steady the cable. I ended up >running the cable in nyloflow tubing between the pulleys and the pedal >cross-bar for this reason (and because I share your dislike of the standard >solution). > >Best regards, > >Nick > > >Original Message: >----------------- >Time: 06:35:36 PM PST US >From: ScramIt@aol.com >Subject: Europa-List: Tunnel Cable Guides > >--> Europa-List message posted by: ScramIt@aol.com > >I have the rudder cables connected to the rudder pedals as per plans. The >cables run straight from the CS21s to the cable pulleys. They skim the >walls >and clear everything. I put the gear with wheel and brake on, and >retracted, >still the cables clear. If I build the cable guides per plans the cables >will >rub on the blocks and rub on the walls in several places. (it's the walls >that are the problem) I think I'm going to keep the cable straight and not >have the cables pulled outwards. The guides will be only 5 mm taller, I >can't >think of anything that will rub on or hit them later on. I'm I missing >something? >Thanks, >SteveD. > > http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:46:09 AM PST US From: "Nigel Charles" Subject: Europa-List: Winter ASI --> Europa-List message posted by: "Nigel Charles" I have a spare 1.5 turn Winter ASI (20-160kts) available. I bought it believing that my Vne would be 150kts. Having done the weight increase mod I found I needed an ASI to cater for the increased Vne of 165kts. Europas with a MTOW of 1300lb have a Vne of 150kts. This ASI fits a standard 3.125" hole. Never used. New Winter ASI's cost about =A3180. I am looking to sell at =A390 or $140 or 130Euro. Nigel Charles ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:40:27 PM PST US From: "Kevin Taylor" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Survival --> Europa-List message posted by: "Kevin Taylor" For what its worth here is my input. I have a survival suit and wore it last year when crossing the Irish Caernarfon to Dublin 70 nautical miles. I was advised that around may survival time without a Immersions suit was less than 10 mins. With a suit it should be nearer an hour. Given that the odds of been rescued in 10 mins were very low, but the odds of rescue in one hour were better I bought the suit. I didn't have the Europa at the time it was a Rallye. The ground temp in Caernarfon was about 26 deg. To be honest wearing the suit was a big danger! The sun on the Perspex canopy turned the Rallye in to a green house. The temp in the cabin was far too warm and although my passenger was comfortable (without a suite) I was probably close to passing out at times. This was not helped by the tight neck and wrist seals which you get with theses suits. When I landed I was very relieved. I undid the zip and run my hands across my t-shirt. I knocked of about 5 litres of sweat. I didn't wear the suit on the way back. I have crossed the Irish sea twice and channel once since and NO I HAVENT worn the suit again. I have thought a lot about it and as daft as it seams one reason for not wearing it is I feel guilty I don't have one for my passenger. Silly thing is when ever I set out over water I think is this the time I should have worn it. However my major concern is landing on the sea without the under cart (trigear) flipping me over. This was a discussion point on the micro group and when I flew a flex over water my action plan was to jump before the flex hit the water. I now have a CT and because its easier to exit than the Europa I have planned to do that. Maybe wrongly? My plan is full flap, in to wind, get it near the stall open door and jump. It stalls about 34kts so a little slower than a Europa in fairness. I am surprised to read about the expectation of the Europa to float. My assumption with any plane was once it touched the water it would go do and pretty dam quick. As for debating the issue I think its a dam fine Idea. Any ideas and documented cases would help to make an informed decision. As for me if I try the Immersion suit again it will be either on a flexwing or on a cool day next time. Regards Kev T -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Nigel Charles Subject: Re: Europa-List: Survival --> Europa-List message posted by: "Nigel Charles" >It would not be surprising of course if a Survival Equipment firm thought it a good idea for folk to buy survival kit.< Yes, however they could have easily used the situation to advise the purchase of a dinghy instead, making them even more money. Their advice was that if you are only going to buy a dinghy or survival suits then the best option is survival suits. You know they are going to work. They also point out that in some ditching cases it was not possible to get the dinghy out of the aircraft in time. > I assume that your friend was flying something a bit less seaworthy than a Europa, and find it difficult to imagine that a Europa would sink in 2 mins unless you hit the water so hard that you knocked the wings off, in which case you would probably be beyond worrying about sinking.< Quite right but having done sea survival training I can assure you that in anything other than flat calm coping with the survival tasks is not as straightforward as it seems. It is quite possible for a wing to dig into a wave on touchdown and be ripped off. The fuselage could then easily fill with water whilst tipped on its side. Escaping from a semi submerged fuselage in a typical English Channel swell could be awkward enough let alone removing the dinghy and inflating it. Although my Classic Europa has foam wings the XS does not and there is no guarantee that it will remain afloat once the wings have filled with water assuming they were still attached. >The figures for only 50% surviving the ditching are widely quoted, but do you have the detail? How many of these were in mid Ocean, or polar waters rather than the Channel? How many were in light aircraft equipped with a dinghy? It would be nice to know what the figures are for the sort of situation we are equipping ourselves for, rather than world figures that no doubt include people flying in the vilest conditions (which may have triggered the ditching) in totally inhospitable places. < I have no further info on this but it is interesting that a fit adult immersed in the English Channel for 35 minutes at the best time of year was not far from expiring. This is bad enough without considering worse scenarios. Finally I did not raise this issue on the forum. If David wishes to just use a liferaft then that is fine by me. I am happy with my decision. I am sure others will make their own judgements on this topic. Nigel Charles --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. --- ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:09:08 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Europa-List: Survival --> Europa-List message posted by: > I am surprised to read about the expectation of the Europa to float. My > assumption with any plane was once it touched the water it would go do and > pretty dam quick. My thoughts on this (for what it's worth), I agree that the Europa will (probably) float, but that's only with the wings on. What are the chances of an ideal landing on 4ft waves *and* keeping both wings on? I wouldn't put money on it, especially when we're talking about the English coast or near by. Cheers, Mark.