Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:42 AM - Survival (david joyce)
2. 05:03 AM - Re: Mogas (Fred Fillinger)
3. 06:54 AM - Re: Survival (Kevin Taylor)
4. 07:06 AM - Re: Fuel In, Braid in / Inflight, Braid Out (Fred Fillinger)
5. 10:06 AM - SV: Survival (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen)
6. 10:15 AM - 50% share available (Eamonn Sheridan)
7. 11:55 AM - Re: Survival (Ami McFadyean)
8. 05:35 PM - Re: EIS Coolant connection (KARL HEINDL)
9. 06:40 PM - 914 fuel pumps (DJA727@aol.com)
Message 1
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "david joyce" <davidjoyce@beeb.net>
I have done a bit of searching round the topic. The Air Accident Invest Board site
searched for Ditching gives some interesting info:
In the 10 reports produced there was no incident where anyone with a lifejacket
ditched in a controlled way and did not survive. A PA28 ditched off Guernsey
with two pax wearing life jackets and pilot without. The plane floated
long enough for them to get out on to the wing, inflate the dinghy and for the
pilot to go back into the plane to get all his kit into the dinghy. He ditched
with flaps down and gear up.
A Robin however with fixed gear flipped over on landing. This was a night
flight which would not have helped, but it could just be that in among these
two incidents there is a fringe message to add to the mono vs trigear debate!
Neither pilot was wearing the life jacket available in the aircraft, and while
one swam to shore the other apparently took off in the wrong direction and
drowned.
They give a graph for 'Likely Survival Time for a Relatively Thin Person
in Calm Water with no Liferaft'. This compares survival with just lightweight
summer clothing and a survival suit with trousers, long johns, shirt and
heavy pullover. This doesn't seem a totally equable comparison, but does make
the point that the insulation qualities of the survival suit depend on you wearing
thick clothing underneath it, which from Kevin's account is not too attractive
a proposition. They give the following survival times:
At 5 deg C - S. suit 1 hr 50mins; summer cloths 50 mins.
At 10 deg C - S suit 3 hrs; summer cloths 1 hr
The sea temp in the Channel and Irish Sea at present according to Ant Veals weather
site is around 12 deg C. I haven't got temps for mid winter but it is difficult
to imagine it will be below 5 deg. Kevins acdvice about survival times
in the Irish Sea in May clearly came from a different hymn sheet than the AAIB
one. In all the AAIB comment and discussion I have waded through there is heavy
emphasis on having user friendly lifejackets, and always wearing them, and
talk also about dinghies but no mention of the desirability of Survival Suits.
In relation to the question of flipping over or trying to jump out sooner it is worth saying that the guys in the Robin got out without trouble from the upturned plane, and I think I would prefer my chances of doing that (as long as I had a good four point harness) rather than risking being clobbered by some part of the plane while jumping out, or misjudging the timing and having it land on top of you or immediately in front. I am also not sure that hitting a wave at 40 kts would be a pleasant experience, and it might just be enough to tear your life jacket off. The AAIB detailed one instance where the guy only had a lap strap, hit the water at speed and had head injuries which stopped him getting out. The website for anyone interested is www.aaib.dft.gov.uk Regards, David
Message 2
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--> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Fillinger <fillinger@ameritech.net>
> ...but I am again reading a PFA circular from 2001 which quotes
> that the tank temperature must not exceed 20 C, and the altitude
> must be below 6000 feet.
> Cheers, Karl
And Saturn must not be aligned with Mars. :-) Those numbers look
consistent with saying high-RVP fuel, if maintained below that
temp/altitude combination, cannot be made to vapor lock.
However, with that kind of limitation, and even if FAA inexplicably
approved, there would be no market for the resulting STCs. Much of the
STC testing on low-wing types took place in Nevada and Arizona.
Regards,
Fred F.
Message 3
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Kevin Taylor" <kevin@eastyorkshire.co.uk>
David,
I think you have a point and my theory of jumping from the flex wing maybe
ought not to be carried over to the 3 axis.
I always considered that if I did land on water I would do my best to stall
it on and risk a heavy flop rather than flipping over from forward momentum.
Interesting information you bring to the forum and my thanks for that. Looks
like the info I was given was probably more negative on survival time than
it needed to be.
Last year when we had a mass flex wing crossing of the Irish sea I tried to
contact the RNLI several times via email to no avail.
The channel doesn't concern me so much due to the reasonably short distance
and the ships there are plenty to pick one up.
As for the Irish sea well that feels a lonely place with not so many. Due to
the D201 Dublin ATC lack of help and the general poor radio coverage between
Caernarfon and Dublin I probably wont go that route again in future.
I have now fitted a Transponder to my aircraft as I got fed up of not been
allowed service because I have no transponder.
On that issue when returning from France recently I was refused FIS for the
channel crossing return leg because I didn't have a transponder. They told
me they wouldn't activate a flight plan and I should call London Info. Not
much help when you are near Abbeville. I managed to activate my plan about
one third of the way across which wouldn't have been much help had I have
gone down as no one knew I was there.
Regards
Kev T
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of david joyce
Subject: Europa-List: Survival
--> Europa-List message posted by: "david joyce" <davidjoyce@beeb.net>
I have done a bit of searching round the topic. The Air Accident Invest
Board site searched for Ditching gives some interesting info:
In the 10 reports produced there was no incident where anyone with a
lifejacket ditched in a controlled way and did not survive. A PA28 ditched
off Guernsey with two pax wearing life jackets and pilot without. The plane
floated long enough for them to get out on to the wing, inflate the dinghy
and for the pilot to go back into the plane to get all his kit into the
dinghy. He ditched with flaps down and gear up.
A Robin however with fixed gear flipped over on landing. This was a
night flight which would not have helped, but it could just be that in among
these two incidents there is a fringe message to add to the mono vs trigear
debate! Neither pilot was wearing the life jacket available in the aircraft,
and while one swam to shore the other apparently took off in the wrong
direction and drowned.
They give a graph for 'Likely Survival Time for a Relatively
Thin Person in Calm Water with no Liferaft'. This compares survival with
just lightweight summer clothing and a survival suit with trousers, long
johns, shirt and heavy pullover. This doesn't seem a totally equable
comparison, but does make the point that the insulation qualities of the
survival suit depend on you wearing thick clothing underneath it, which from
Kevin's account is not too attractive a proposition. They give the following
survival times:
At 5 deg C - S. suit 1 hr 50mins; summer cloths 50 mins.
At 10 deg C - S suit 3 hrs; summer cloths 1 hr
The sea temp in the Channel and Irish Sea at present according to Ant Veals
weather site is around 12 deg C. I haven't got temps for mid winter but it
is difficult to imagine it will be below 5 deg. Kevins acdvice about
survival times in the Irish Sea in May clearly came from a different hymn
sheet than the AAIB one. In all the AAIB comment and discussion I have waded
through there is heavy emphasis on having user friendly lifejackets, and
always wearing them, and talk also about dinghies but no mention of the
desirability of Survival Suits.
In relation to the question of flipping over or trying to jump out
sooner it is worth saying that the guys in the Robin got out without trouble
from the upturned plane, and I think I would prefer my chances of doing that
(as long as I had a good four point harness) rather than risking being
clobbered by some part of the plane while jumping out, or misjudging the
timing and having it land on top of you or immediately in front. I am also
not sure that hitting a wave at 40 kts would be a pleasant experience, and
it might just be enough to tear your life jacket off. The AAIB detailed one
instance where the guy only had a lap strap, hit the water at speed and had
head injuries which stopped him getting out. The website for anyone
interested is www.aaib.dft.gov.uk Regards, David
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Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel In, Braid in / Inflight, Braid Out |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Fillinger <fillinger@ameritech.net>
> I would go for the aluminium elbow at the bottom of the XS filler
> moulding, get some coarse mesh attached at the lower end, then
> ground the elbow with every other metal bit, including of course
> the filler cap.
I'm unclear what problem this is solving. Static generated in the fill
pipe? The Fiberglass Tank and Pipe Institute say that static charge in
nonconductive pipe is all about velocity, with fuel flow of 12 ft/sec is
a typical threshold. In the Europa Mk 1 filler pipe, that requires 120
gal/minute! But such velocity can be created by whirlpooling fuel down
a plastic funnel, and thus refiners say don't ever do that. Seems also
the mesh will only dissipate static that the mesh itself is creating.
I now can't even find support that grounding the metal filler cap ass'y
does much of anything, and it may even be more hazardous when fueling
from a gas can, should the A/C be grounded to earth. The above
Institute, discussing filling above-ground, nonconductive tanks says:
"The addition of grounding systems (e. g., grounding rods) will not
reduce the hazard associated with electrostatic...." The hazard occurs
if the can's spout is allowed to come out of contact with the metal.
Were the metal not earthed, there's less hazard if the fueler is
standing on a paved surface.
I found the natural gas industry says the same thing. The static charge
on the inside wall in underground polyethylene gas mains is a serious
problem when servicing the pipe. A periodic metal connection in the
buried pipe does nothing, and that's not how it is dealt with nor
adaptable to an airplane.
Regards,
Fred F.
Message 5
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Sidsel & Svein Johnsen" <sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no>
Hi all,
quote
The channel doesn't concern me so much due to the reasonably short distance
and the ships there are plenty to pick one up.
unquote
This and some similar postings on this issue have urged me to share one
important observation - not from flying (which is a relatively new field to
me) but from sailing a fair bit on yachts and large ships:
Do not count on anyone on a commercial vessel seeing you on "final approach"
or when actually hitting the water, unless you have been able to alert them
by a mayday call on MARINE VHF ch. 16.
Sure, there is a duty officer (supposedly) and a helmsman on the bridge, but
they are not scanning the sky, and scanning the horizon is infrequent unless
there is crossing traffic. Even at daytime, radar is mainly used to detect
and track surrounding traffic. On modern cargo ships, the helmsman's
position is fairly far back in the wheelhouse, and the same goes for the
comfortable chair used by the duty officer. The angle of the sky above the
horizon seen from these positions is very small. A small airplane coming in
to ditch has a very small chance of being seen, both because of the short
time it is in the crews' possible field of vision and because only one, at
most two will be looking out at all, and maybe none of them in the direction
you are coming down during those few seconds you can be seen through the
windows. On a sea with any amount of white-caps, the ditching will probably
not be seen at all, unless very close and if someone happens to be looking
at that particular spot.
I do not have the numbers readily available, but it takes a fair distance to
stop and turn a ship, if anyone indeed did see you ditching. If he does not
keep his eyes on you CONSTANTLY, the chance of finding you again when the
wind is blowing 15-20 knots or more is very, very slim, unless fairly large
pieces of the airplane still floats around you, or unless you are in an
inflated raft (orange colour). If you have a choice, circle and ditch close
to a fishing vessel, not to a commercial vessel under way. There may be
fishermen out on the deck and they can stop much faster and maneouver right
up to you.
Therefore, when I do finish my Europa and fullfill my dream of attenting one
of the fly-ins in England, I will probably wear either a light survival suit
or a wet suit (much better than normal clothes if getting into cold water
and not as uncomfortable in a warm cockpit as a survival suit will be), and
carry onboard a hand-held MARINE VHF radio to alert any ships in the
vicinity, after having transmitted the aeronautical mayday message. In my
jacket I will carry some of the stick-type light/smoke signals readily
available for sailors.
Regards,
Svein K. Johnsen
A225 (now in Norway)
Message 6
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| Subject: | 50% share available |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Eamonn Sheridan <esheridan1@yahoo.com>
Fellow Europa enthusiasts, this is a very rare opportunity. Are you interested
or do you know anyone who may be interested to acquire a 50 % share of a Europa
XS Tri-gear 914 Turbo? Based in Biggin Hill. Built in 2000 by David Richardson
to the highest standard. No expense spared. It is a fantastic aeroplane to
fly. It has a Arplast PV50 electrically adjustable variable pitch prop, Bendix
King Nav / Com, Bendix King Transponder with mode C, Skymap 2 GPS, Navaid wing
leveller / Autopilot, Full flight instruments with vacuum drive, Electronic
stall warner, Twin strobes, External power plug, ELBA, Life jackets, Cambrai Cockpit
and Cowling external cover, Twin axle flat bed trailer, All avionics built
by A.M Avionics at Biggin Hill. Share price 24.500
My contact telephone number is 07736 129960
Further info and pictures can be seen on www.holiday-in-marbella.com
Eamonn Sheridan
---------------------------------
Message 7
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Ami McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
Your flex-wing technique may have merit as a few years ago a Channel
ditched flex-wing sank with its pilot, who could not get out of the seat. I
don't know the full details but presume that structural deformation of the
trike tubes upon impact had 'locked' him in.
Flying the Channel (or the Irish Sea) with a companion aircraft has not been
mentioned, but must greatly improve the chances of rescue and survival.
Duncan McFadyean
PS my money is on the life raft so far in this debate! Where can I get a
LIGHTWEIGHT 2-man version?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Taylor" <kevin@eastyorkshire.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Survival
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Kevin Taylor"
<kevin@eastyorkshire.co.uk>
>
> David,
>
> I think you have a point and my theory of jumping from the flex wing maybe
> ought not to be carried over to the 3 axis.
>
> I always considered that if I did land on water I would do my best to
stall
> it on and risk a heavy flop rather than flipping over from forward
momentum.
>
> Interesting information you bring to the forum and my thanks for that.
Looks
> like the info I was given was probably more negative on survival time than
> it needed to be.
>
> Last year when we had a mass flex wing crossing of the Irish sea I tried
to
> contact the RNLI several times via email to no avail.
>
> The channel doesn't concern me so much due to the reasonably short
distance
> and the ships there are plenty to pick one up.
>
> As for the Irish sea well that feels a lonely place with not so many. Due
to
> the D201 Dublin ATC lack of help and the general poor radio coverage
between
> Caernarfon and Dublin I probably wont go that route again in future.
>
> I have now fitted a Transponder to my aircraft as I got fed up of not been
> allowed service because I have no transponder.
>
> On that issue when returning from France recently I was refused FIS for
the
> channel crossing return leg because I didn't have a transponder. They told
> me they wouldn't activate a flight plan and I should call London Info. Not
> much help when you are near Abbeville. I managed to activate my plan about
> one third of the way across which wouldn't have been much help had I have
> gone down as no one knew I was there.
>
> Regards
>
> Kev T
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of david joyce
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Europa-List: Survival
>
>
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "david joyce" <davidjoyce@beeb.net>
>
> I have done a bit of searching round the topic. The Air Accident Invest
> Board site searched for Ditching gives some interesting info:
> In the 10 reports produced there was no incident where anyone with
a
> lifejacket ditched in a controlled way and did not survive. A PA28 ditched
> off Guernsey with two pax wearing life jackets and pilot without. The
plane
> floated long enough for them to get out on to the wing, inflate the dinghy
> and for the pilot to go back into the plane to get all his kit into the
> dinghy. He ditched with flaps down and gear up.
> A Robin however with fixed gear flipped over on landing. This was
a
> night flight which would not have helped, but it could just be that in
among
> these two incidents there is a fringe message to add to the mono vs
trigear
> debate! Neither pilot was wearing the life jacket available in the
aircraft,
> and while one swam to shore the other apparently took off in the wrong
> direction and drowned.
> They give a graph for 'Likely Survival Time for a Relatively
> Thin Person in Calm Water with no Liferaft'. This compares survival with
> just lightweight summer clothing and a survival suit with trousers, long
> johns, shirt and heavy pullover. This doesn't seem a totally equable
> comparison, but does make the point that the insulation qualities of the
> survival suit depend on you wearing thick clothing underneath it, which
from
> Kevin's account is not too attractive a proposition. They give the
following
> survival times:
> At 5 deg C - S. suit 1 hr 50mins; summer cloths 50 mins.
> At 10 deg C - S suit 3 hrs; summer cloths 1 hr
> The sea temp in the Channel and Irish Sea at present according to Ant
Veals
> weather site is around 12 deg C. I haven't got temps for mid winter but it
> is difficult to imagine it will be below 5 deg. Kevins acdvice about
> survival times in the Irish Sea in May clearly came from a different hymn
> sheet than the AAIB one. In all the AAIB comment and discussion I have
waded
> through there is heavy emphasis on having user friendly lifejackets, and
> always wearing them, and talk also about dinghies but no mention of the
> desirability of Survival Suits.
> In relation to the question of flipping over or trying to jump
out
> sooner it is worth saying that the guys in the Robin got out without
trouble
> from the upturned plane, and I think I would prefer my chances of doing
that
> (as long as I had a good four point harness) rather than risking being
> clobbered by some part of the plane while jumping out, or misjudging the
> timing and having it land on top of you or immediately in front. I am also
> not sure that hitting a wave at 40 kts would be a pleasant experience, and
> it might just be enough to tear your life jacket off. The AAIB detailed
one
> instance where the guy only had a lap strap, hit the water at speed and
had
> head injuries which stopped him getting out. The website for anyone
> interested is www.aaib.dft.gov.uk Regards, David
>
>
> ---
> Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>
> ---
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: EIS Coolant connection |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "KARL HEINDL" <kheindl@msn.com>
Many thanks for all replies to my query. Of course the circuit was
incomplete without ground
from the VDO sender. I used ring connectors, connecting one to one of the
bolts holding the
vacuum pump to the back of the gear drive. Everythinh works just fine.
Regards, Karl
>From: James Nelson <europajim@juno.com>
>Reply-To: europa-list@matronics.com
>To: europa-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Europa-List: EIS Coolant connection
>Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 21:18:32 -0400
>
>--> Europa-List message posted by: James Nelson <europajim@juno.com>
>
>Karl,
> You did provide a ground for the thermocouple didn't you ???
>I've done that when I installed my big alternator and did not provide a
>good (big) ground to the engine mounting frame. After that it worked
>great. Just like if you remote the oil sender. You must ground the body
>or it won't work. I remoted it to keep the vibration failures
>nonexistent. Early oil senders failed with engine vibration. Check
>other aircraft and see that they mount the oil pressure sender, fuel
>pressure sender ect. on a manifold bolted to the fire wall and separate
>from the engine.
>
>
>Jim Nelson
>
>
>On Thu, 15 May 2003 16:29:05 +0100 "KARL HEINDL" <kheindl@msn.com>
>writes:
> > --> Europa-List message posted by: "KARL HEINDL" <kheindl@msn.com>
> >
> >
> > I have the model 2000 EIS from Grand Rapids and a coolant probe
> > which came
> > as a kit from
> > Skydrive.
> > I now discover that the coolant temperature is not being indicated.
> > It shows
> > 15 (C) permanently.
> > I have only one wire from the probe going to pin 24. What am I doing
> > wrong?
> >
> > Cheers, Karl
> >
> > Overloaded with spam? With MSN 8, you can filter it out
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger
Message 9
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--> Europa-List message posted by: DJA727@aol.com
I have always used 2 pumps for takeoff in Piper Aircraft. In the 914 engine,
there are 2 electric fuel pumps. I have assumed both would be on for takeoff
and landing. The fuel pressure is regulated in that engine to 3.5 psi above
airbox pressure.
When I am at a constant power settling. My fuel pressure increases by 2.2 psi
with the second pump turned on. Rotax only allows a range of 2.0 to 5.0 for
normal differential fuel pressure. Increasing the pressure by 2.2 is almost
the whole range! I also have evidence of rich running, which has subsided
since I started to run with one pump only during takeoff and landing. (My
system will automatically activate the second pumnpm if the first one fails).
I can't see anywhere that Rotax addressees whether or not the two pumps are
meant to be run at the same time for safety purposes. To add to the dilemma,
the Rotax manual has the pumps in series, where Europa has them in parallel.
I have mine per Europa.
Simple question: What are people doing in operation? 1 or 2?
Thanks,
Dave
A227
Mini U2
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