Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:32 AM - Re: Static Charges and how to avoid them (david joyce)
2. 07:34 AM - Sticky pre-skinned surfaces (TELEDYNMCS@aol.com)
3. 07:52 AM - Re: Sticky pre-skinned surfaces (DJA727@aol.com)
4. 10:20 AM - Re: Static Charges and how to avoid them (Fred Fillinger)
5. 11:50 AM - Re: Fuel Outlet Rubber Hose Replacement (Roland Robinson@tiscali.co.uk)
6. 12:18 PM - Rotax 912ULS EGT (Graham Singleton)
7. 12:30 PM - Re: Static Charges and how to avoid them (Ami McFadyean)
8. 01:01 PM - Re: Rotax 912ULS EGT (Ami McFadyean)
9. 01:28 PM - Re: Rotax 912ULS EGT (RMRRick@aol.com)
10. 02:06 PM - Re: Fuel Outlet Rubber Hose Replacement (Ed)
11. 07:30 PM - Subject: Re: Outrigger mod (Jim Butcher)
12. 11:14 PM - Re: Sticky pre-skinned surfaces (Jeremy Davey)
13. 11:48 PM - Re: Outrigger mod (Gert Rohrer)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Static Charges and how to avoid them |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "david joyce" <davidjoyce@beeb.net>
Fred, The snag about the flow rate is that in a large caliber pipe the fuel
will accelerate at something like1g and in a 3ft vertical drop from standing
start this produces 13.6 ft per sec. I guess the fuel pipe is not 3 ft long
but the fuel doesn't have a standing start either. Regards, David Joyce
----- Original Message -----
From: Fred Fillinger <fillinger@ameritech.net>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Static Charges and how to avoid them
> --> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Fillinger
<fillinger@ameritech.net>
>
> > Fred
> > My plan is to dissipate any static charge generated. We know it
> > does arise, G-BWDP caught fire. I am reliant on the memories of
> > two guys, one of whom got burnt on the arm, so their memory of
> > the sequence of events might have been diluted by the trauma at
> > the time.
> > ...
>
> Graham, were both the above incidents while hoisting up fuel containers
> to pour in fuel? In that case, refiners say a metal can is more
> hazardous than plastic (why they're hard to find in stores here). If
> you know of two such incidents, then maybe there is indeed an especial
> hazard with fiberglass airplanes. The following is quoted from a doc
> (by NZ's CAAA) reprinted by FAA, discussing fueling from portable
> containers:
>
> "No amount of bonding and grounding will prevent discharges from
> occurring inside a fuel tank [in context, this includes metal tanks
> too]. Bonding, however, will ensure that the fueling equipment and the
> receiving tank are at the same potential...."
>
> "Place the container on ground. Keep the nozzle in contact with the
> container inlet during fuel transfer."
>
> "A composite aircraft is more likely to develop and sustain a static
> charge because of the low conductivity of the fiberglass structure."
>
> IOW, a safe way is a metal can preferably on the ground, metal nozzle
> and conductive hose, bonding wire from can to filler opening, stand
> clear of A/C. Pump it in with electric or hand pump, with flow rate in
> the hose below the magic # of 12 ft/sec (30 gal/min in a 1" ID hose),
> which should be no problem in an affordable pump!
>
> Best,
> Fred F.
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Sticky pre-skinned surfaces |
--> Europa-List message posted by: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com
Greetings all,
I've noticed in the past couple of weeks that my factory pre-skinned
ailerons, stab, rudder, antiservo tabs and flaps have become sticky to the
touch. We've been getting a fair amount of rain of late and the relative
humidity has been fairly high (60%-70%) for several weeks. Is this something
to be concerned about? Anybody know what is causing the stickiness? The parts
have been stored in a temperature controlled environment going no lower than
about 55F and no higher than 75F. Handling them for fitting flaps, ailerons,
stab, etc., has resulted in fingerprints showing up on the surfaces. What's a
good way to clean them up before finish?
Regards,
John Lawton
Dunlap, TN
A-245
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Sticky pre-skinned surfaces |
--> Europa-List message posted by: DJA727@aol.com
In a message dated 5/20/2003 7:35:54 AM Pacific Standard Time,
TELEDYNMCS@aol.com writes:
>
> I've noticed in the past couple of weeks that my factory pre-skinned
> ailerons, stab, rudder, antiservo tabs and flaps have become sticky to the
> touch. We've been getting a fair amount of rain of late and the relative
> humidity has been fairly high (60%-70%) for several weeks. Is this
> something
> to be concerned about? Anybody know what is causing the stickiness? The
> parts
> have been stored in a temperature controlled environment going no lower
> than
> about 55F and no higher than 75F. Handling them for fitting flaps,
> ailerons,
> stab, etc., has resulted in fingerprints showing up on the surfaces. What's
> a
> good way to clean them up before finish?
>
>
I would call Europa and speak to Neville about this. He gave me a very good
briefing on how to prep the surfaces prior to filling. It amounted to a
detergent scrubbing and then careful handling after that - to not touch with
human hands. As a general note, during my construction of the airplane,
calling Europa on items such as this was invaluable. They were very helpful
in many stages of my construction. Andy and Neville were well worth the call
to the UK in the wee hours of the morning. I highly recommend it!
Dave
A227
Mini U2
52 hours flight time
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Static Charges and how to avoid them |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Fillinger <fillinger@ameritech.net>
> Fred, The snag about the flow rate is that in a large caliber pipe
> the fuel will accelerate at something like 1g and in a 3ft vertical
> drop from standing start this produces 13.6 ft per sec. I guess
> the fuel pipe is not 3 ft long but the fuel doesn't have a standing
> start either. Regards, David Joyce
That's a good point, but the initial drop is about a foot or less on the
older fill pipe, and in the tri-gear, the fuel will not see the vertical
part of the it. Unless you just pour the stuff down the hole from
a can, more unsafe yet. In any case where any nozzle is inserted down
the pipe, the velocity is limited by the nozzle itself plus other
factors, before free falling a few inches to hit a major slowdown in the
more lateral run of the pipe.
I understand the literature to suggest that static downstream of the
filler opening is substantially irrelevant. If the nozzle is in contact
with the opening, there simply is no gap for a spark to occur.
Regards,
Fred F.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Outlet Rubber Hose Replacement |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Roland Robinson@tiscali.co.uk" <roland.robinson@tiscali.co.uk>
I had a recent bad experience with a Europa just after take-off that I
eventually traced to what I believe is an original fuel line supplied by the
factory. I had completed the annual inspection, which obviously included
removing and cleaning the fuel filters, I flight tested the plane (at full
all up weight) and flew for a couple more hours with no problems, then I set
out for some circuits (I am low hours on type) - first circuit no problem,
second circuit just after take-off engine started to run rough, it felt
almost as if it were on two cylinders. I closed the throttle and looked at
getting it back on the runway (I operate from Kemble that has a V long
runway) but was too late. I was picking my field when my friend flying with
me suggested trying the throttle again I did and the engine responded - for
a while and then ran rough again. We repeated this for a few times and
gained enough height to make the cross runway. When we finally got the Pan
call in the engine of course ran fine on reduced throttle. On landing and
carrying out some power checks the only discrepancy we could find was a
approx 200rpm loss in max revs.
Many checks followed dirt in the tank, float bowls, drained tanks, boroscope
in tank, check filters again!!- nothing. However when replacing the filters
we noticed that there was a short split in the fuel line. In its dark and
dingy corner under the seat this was not easy to spot. The lines were
replaced, fuel pressure gauges added and we gingerly went for a test flight.
The problem has not recurred.
Why did the problem not occur immediately - here is my theory. I started the
test and subsequent flights with full tanks. As the fuel level dropped the
suction head on the pump reduced and the pump eventually drew air from the
split in the pipe. (I have since run with less fuel than I normally would to
test that this would not happen again). The engine recovered as the
throttle was closed as the fuel demand reduced the pump demand reduced.
Any other theories out there??
Roly Robinson G-CHAV (Now at Gloucester)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Davies" <bdavies@dircon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel Outlet Rubber Hose Replacement
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Brian Davies" <bdavies@dircon.co.uk>
>
> Europa have changed the hose it supplies, because of poor experience with
> the existing. The type provided with my kit was quite thin and flexible
and
> cloth braided on the outside. I consulted some auto repair mates and they
> said they would not fit it on a car because it would start leaking after a
> couple of years.
> The stuff Europa supplied with the fuel drain mod kit was clearly
superior.
> I suggest you check with the factory on the spec of the hose they are now
> supplying or replace with good quality auto hose.
>
> Brian Davies kit 454
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tony Renshaw" <tonyrenshaw@ozemail.com.au>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Europa-List: Fuel Outlet Rubber Hose Replacement
>
>
> > --> Europa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw
> <tonyrenshaw@ozemail.com.au>
> >
> > Gidday,
> > I am wondering if the Europa supplied hose is adaquate for this task, as
> > mine appears to gape around the reinforcement at the outer edge of the
> hose
> > clamp. This may well be normal, but it makes me wonder whether there is
a
> > better quality hose available. Any assistance will certainly be
> appreciated.
> > Reg
> > Tony Renshaw
> > Sydney Australia
> >
> >
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Rotax 912ULS EGT |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton <graham@gflight.f9.co.uk>
At 23:56 19/05/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>Very true. When the interior of my 912S silencer collapsed it was only the
>very high EGT that flashed up on my EIS (Brilliant) that stopped me damaging
>the engine. I would be reluctant to fly without in future.
>Rick Morris G-RIKS
I agree
in fact I would prefer 4 EGTs not two. The way the highest cylinder moves
around with changing throttle setting is amazing, Must be something to do
with the strange manifold shape. I suspect the Skydrive carb heater might
help to even out the mixture and help more balanced EGTs. Anyone know?
Graham
---
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Static Charges and how to avoid them |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Ami McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
Which suggests that the metal part of the breather tube should be bonded to
the metal surround of the filler cap and the refuelling nozzle kept in
contact with the latter whilst refuelling?
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Graham Singleton" <graham@gflight.f9.co.uk>
Subject: Europa-List: Static Charges and how to avoid them
> --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton
<graham@gflight.f9.co.uk>
>
> At 23:56 17/05/2003 -0700, you wrote:
> > > I would go for the aluminium elbow at the bottom of the XS filler
> > > moulding, get some coarse mesh attached at the lower end, then
> > > ground the elbow with every other metal bit, including of course
> > > the filler cap.
> >
> >I'm unclear what problem this is solving. Static generated in the fill
> >pipe? The Fiberglass Tank and Pipe Institute say that static charge in
> >nonconductive pipe is all about velocity, with fuel flow of 12 ft/sec is
> >a typical threshold. In the Europa Mk 1 filler pipe, that requires 120
> >gal/minute! But such velocity can be created by whirlpooling fuel down
> >a plastic funnel, and thus refiners say don't ever do that
>
> Fred
> My plan is to dissipate any static charge generated. We know it does
arise,
> G-BWDP caught fire. I am reliant on the memories of two guys, one of whom
> got burnt on the arm, so their memory of the sequence of events might
have
> been diluted by the trauma at the time.
> Considering the velocities involved, the worst case is the speed of the
> air/fluid flow through the breather tube, (which also slows down filling)
> eventually the breather lower end is submerged, it's fuel that has to flow
> then. DPs fire happened right at the end of refuelling .
> Graham
>
>
> ---
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912ULS EGT |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Ami McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
Having got four EGTs, I find that (as the rear cylinders run much cooler) I
could live with only two EGTs. But then I would probably be wondering what
the two rear cylinders were up to; so who knows.
The firing order of the 912 means that the rear cylinder follows the front
by a delay of 180 degrees only (as opposed to 360 deg. for evenly spaced
firing).
That means that the intake of both cylinders on one side are overlapped (the
valves are both open together for a short while in the cycle, one at the
beginning of the intake stroke and the other at the end) and I suspect that
one cylinder is effectively "robbing" the other. Roll-on injection and
four separate runners! (is that not what the alternate drilled and tapped
bosses around the cylinder head intakes were provided for?).
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Graham Singleton" <graham@gflight.f9.co.uk>
Subject: Europa-List: Rotax 912ULS EGT
> --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton
<graham@gflight.f9.co.uk>
>
> At 23:56 19/05/2003 -0700, you wrote:
> >Very true. When the interior of my 912S silencer collapsed it was only
the
> >very high EGT that flashed up on my EIS (Brilliant) that stopped me
damaging
> >the engine. I would be reluctant to fly without in future.
> >Rick Morris G-RIKS
>
> I agree
> in fact I would prefer 4 EGTs not two. The way the highest cylinder moves
> around with changing throttle setting is amazing, Must be something to do
> with the strange manifold shape. I suspect the Skydrive carb heater might
> help to even out the mixture and help more balanced EGTs. Anyone know?
> Graham
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912ULS EGT |
--> Europa-List message posted by: RMRRick@aol.com
Replying to Graham & Tony
I had a progressive loss of power over a period of about 20 flying hours.
From 40 odd hours from new. Initially I had fewer revs on the take off run
and leaner plugs particularly on the starboard bank. Thinking that the
problem was leanness due to either lack of fuel or an air leak on the inlet
both were checked repeatedly and very carefully. The problem worsened with
the starboard EGT (taken from the mid point of the rearward downpipe)
flashing on the EIS from about 300 feet upwards and then a slight misfire.
Reducing throttle brought the temperature down. I fitted a carb water heater
halfway through the problem thinking there might be icing (mid winter) There
also appeared to be an exhaust leak at the junction of the downpipe and the
silencer. To cut a long story short Skydrive suggested I simply remove the
box and test run it unsilenced. Immediately the problem disappeared. Sounds
beautiful! A replacement box solved all the problems. Andy, the silencer
manufacturer and the PFA have been told. The back pressure from a displaced
baffle was leaning the mixture. It was also blowing off the silencer from the
starboard downpipe.
It seems that I had an isolated bad silencer.
Regards Rick
G-RIKS
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Outlet Rubber Hose Replacement |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Ed <bizzarro@easynet.co.uk>
Hi Roly
I had an almost identical experience flying a PA28 from Redhill. Applied
full power, which I got until I was 50' off the ground and out of runway.
Engine spluttered, throttled back, it ran fine. However, not enough power to
clear the hill so put it down in the overshoot. At the time I thought it was
carb ice, but I later diacovered that it was a poorly fitted fuel union that
leaked and thus allowed air into the fuel system whilst the electric and
mechanical pumps were active. The plane had just come out of maintenance!
So I think that your theory is quite sound.
Cheers
Ed
on 20/5/03 7:49 pm, Roland Robinson@tiscali.co.uk at
roland.robinson@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Roland Robinson@tiscali.co.uk"
> <roland.robinson@tiscali.co.uk>
>
> I had a recent bad experience with a Europa just after take-off that I
> eventually traced to what I believe is an original fuel line supplied by the
> factory. I had completed the annual inspection, which obviously included
> removing and cleaning the fuel filters, I flight tested the plane (at full
> all up weight) and flew for a couple more hours with no problems, then I set
> out for some circuits (I am low hours on type) - first circuit no problem,
> second circuit just after take-off engine started to run rough, it felt
> almost as if it were on two cylinders. I closed the throttle and looked at
> getting it back on the runway (I operate from Kemble that has a V long
> runway) but was too late. I was picking my field when my friend flying with
> me suggested trying the throttle again I did and the engine responded - for
> a while and then ran rough again. We repeated this for a few times and
> gained enough height to make the cross runway. When we finally got the Pan
> call in the engine of course ran fine on reduced throttle. On landing and
> carrying out some power checks the only discrepancy we could find was a
> approx 200rpm loss in max revs.
>
> Many checks followed dirt in the tank, float bowls, drained tanks, boroscope
> in tank, check filters again!!- nothing. However when replacing the filters
> we noticed that there was a short split in the fuel line. In its dark and
> dingy corner under the seat this was not easy to spot. The lines were
> replaced, fuel pressure gauges added and we gingerly went for a test flight.
> The problem has not recurred.
>
> Why did the problem not occur immediately - here is my theory. I started the
> test and subsequent flights with full tanks. As the fuel level dropped the
> suction head on the pump reduced and the pump eventually drew air from the
> split in the pipe. (I have since run with less fuel than I normally would to
> test that this would not happen again). The engine recovered as the
> throttle was closed as the fuel demand reduced the pump demand reduced.
>
> Any other theories out there??
>
> Roly Robinson G-CHAV (Now at Gloucester)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brian Davies" <bdavies@dircon.co.uk>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel Outlet Rubber Hose Replacement
>
>
>> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Brian Davies" <bdavies@dircon.co.uk>
>>
>> Europa have changed the hose it supplies, because of poor experience with
>> the existing. The type provided with my kit was quite thin and flexible
> and
>> cloth braided on the outside. I consulted some auto repair mates and they
>> said they would not fit it on a car because it would start leaking after a
>> couple of years.
>> The stuff Europa supplied with the fuel drain mod kit was clearly
> superior.
>> I suggest you check with the factory on the spec of the hose they are now
>> supplying or replace with good quality auto hose.
>>
>> Brian Davies kit 454
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Tony Renshaw" <tonyrenshaw@ozemail.com.au>
>> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
>> Subject: Europa-List: Fuel Outlet Rubber Hose Replacement
>>
>>
>>> --> Europa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw
>> <tonyrenshaw@ozemail.com.au>
>>>
>>> Gidday,
>>> I am wondering if the Europa supplied hose is adaquate for this task, as
>>> mine appears to gape around the reinforcement at the outer edge of the
>> hose
>>> clamp. This may well be normal, but it makes me wonder whether there is
> a
>>> better quality hose available. Any assistance will certainly be
>> appreciated.
>>> Reg
>>> Tony Renshaw
>>> Sydney Australia
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Outrigger mod |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Jim Butcher" <europa@triton.net>
Ferg,
Cost please. I'd like a set.
Jim A185
Message 12
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| Subject: | Sticky pre-skinned surfaces |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Jeremy Davey" <jeremycrdavey@btinternet.com>
John,
All my Stage 1 components have this to one extent or other. Indeed, at the
time we went into it in great depth with the factory and SP Systems (who
make the resin). Apparently it is a result of contaminants emerging from the
resin and reacting with water out of the atmosphere (which is exacerbated by
slow hardener being used and tallies with your weather report) and will need
to be cleaned up prior to finishing. It is not of structural significance.
Having said it is not structurally significant, it is worth taking
precautions for the sake of your health when handling these (and all)
layups. I generally wear latex gloves when handling cured layups, or wash my
hands promptly afterwards. I do not want to acquire an allergy for the sake
of a few hundred disposable gloves and a little care.
Regards,
Jeremy
Jeremy Davey
Europa XS Monowheel 537M G-EZZA
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
TELEDYNMCS@aol.com
Subject: Europa-List: Sticky pre-skinned surfaces
--> Europa-List message posted by: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com
Greetings all,
I've noticed in the past couple of weeks that my factory pre-skinned
ailerons, stab, rudder, antiservo tabs and flaps have become sticky to the
touch. We've been getting a fair amount of rain of late and the relative
humidity has been fairly high (60%-70%) for several weeks. Is this something
to be concerned about? Anybody know what is causing the stickiness? The
parts
have been stored in a temperature controlled environment going no lower than
about 55F and no higher than 75F. Handling them for fitting flaps, ailerons,
stab, etc., has resulted in fingerprints showing up on the surfaces. What's
a
good way to clean them up before finish?
Regards,
John Lawton
Dunlap, TN
A-245
Message 13
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Gert Rohrer" <hagero@bluewin.ch>
Hi Ferg,
Being builder of #248 over here in Switzerland, I'm very much interested in
the modification kit. Could you send one to me and indicate, per e-mail what
it costs?
Thanks very much and kind regards
Gert
Gert Rohrer
Schaedruetihalde 12
CH-6006 Lucerne / Switzerland
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Fergus Kyle
Subject: Europa-List: Outrigger mod
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
Hi,
I sent out a message advising that I had produced the two tubes
necessary for the recommended oturigger pivot mod. Of the several
correspondents contacted, only one replied - and he was surprised I was
still at it. The mod involves beefing up the pivot to reduce inevitable
'play' and Nigel Charles provided scarce tubing bits because the acquisition
involved considerably more minimal tubing than needed by one person.
I have done the same (for those of North American persuasion) as
far as the tubing is concerned. The other mod parts are more easily acquired
locally - and the cost is negligible.
So this is general message to request those who were interested
to confirm I can send out the kits.
Cheers,
ferg
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