Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:11 AM - Re: ELT (Fred Fillinger)
2. 05:15 AM - Re: ELT (James Nelson)
3. 06:28 AM - Re: Primer for Zn-coated steel (Cy Galley)
4. 07:18 AM - Re: Primer for Zn-coated steel (R.C.Harrison)
5. 07:29 AM - Re: Primer for Zn-coated steel (TELEDYNMCS@aol.com)
6. 08:05 AM - Re: Primer for Zn-coated steel (R.C.Harrison)
7. 11:11 AM - Re: Primer for Zn-coated steel (Rob Housman)
8. 01:08 PM - Re: Primer for Zn-coated steel (Jeremy Davey)
9. 01:09 PM - Antennas (Fergus Kyle)
10. 06:16 PM - Re: Antennas (Fred Fillinger)
Message 1
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--> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Fillinger <fillinger@ameritech.net>
> What happens if one were to mount the antenna horizontally?
>
> Is there a need for a ground plane in a composite aircraft?
>
> I would appreciate installation tips from builders who have
> figured this out already.
The antenna should be mounted vertically to match the orientation of a
receiver's signal.
A very good -0- cost ELT antenna which does not require a ground plane
can be made from the last 21" of the RG-58 antenna coax. Remove 21" of
insulation. Push on the braid along its length to expand it and pull
the center conductor out from the braid at the 21" point. Bond it to the
side of the fuselage oriented vertically, except form a "V" by orienting
each leg 20-deg from vertical. Check and or cut the length of the braid
leg to remain at 21". The horizontal run of the coax must be horizontal
for at least 21" before taking any vertical turn:
/
/ 21"
/
-------------
>= 21" \
\ 21"
\
Fred F.
Message 2
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--> Europa-List message posted by: James Nelson <europajim@juno.com>
Craig,
I also have the same ELT. However I mounted it just behind the
pilot. Just under the door rebate about 2" down. Why?, well that unit
can be removed from the a/c when you are down and take it with you. If
you have it beneath the rear deck, it becomes impossible to take with
you. Plus, at your yearly annual inspection, you just remove the two
straps and take it out and replace the "D" batterys. I went to an
electronics store and got a 90 degree antenna fitting so the unit could
be mounted fairly close toward the front. I mounted the antenna just
behind the rear bulkhead with the antenna pointed vertical. You need a
vertically polarized signal for best reception. (don't ask about an
inverted landing). I then mounted the antenna on a 1-1/2" square
aluminum tube. The tube was glassed to the bottom of the fuselage with 4
layers of bid. I had a 1/4" hold drilled on the side to bolt the ground
plane copper tapes to. The ground plane radials are necessary to produce
a strong signal. However, without a ground plane it still works. (note
the portable hand held radios by Icom ect. But your DAR may want the
radials so I mounted them (6) and put one layer of glass over them to
protect them. I folded the tapes over on them selves at the end that has
to be bolted to the aluminum tube so it would be stronger. I soldered the
fold over so the washer would not bread the tapes. Obviously do all the
mod's to the aluminum piece before mounting for the last time. The
antenna tip was supported at the top by reduxing a 1" dia. (thin wall)
irrigation tube to the back of the "D" removable panel. This way the
loading coil is contained with in the short plastic tube and can't flop
around. The mounting pads for the ELT unit were 3/8" thick plywood
reduxed to the side of the fuselage. These were about 1-1/4 wide and
about 3" long. Can not remember the exact size but you will see how to
match to the provided mounting bracket from the manufacturer.(this was
done a long time ago, memory short, old timers disease)
Jim Nelson
N15JN
(still holding at 42 hours, rain go away. For the last month, its
rained every weekend)
On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 22:56:33 -0700 "craig ellison"
<craig.ellison2@verizon.net> writes:
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "craig ellison"
> <craig.ellison2@verizon.net>
>
> All,
>
> I just received my Ameri-King ELT from AS and was going over the
> install instructions before mounting it under the baggage
> compartment. I was planning to mount the antenna on the back side
> of the baggage bay bulkhead in the horizontal position, but the
> instructions state that the antenna should be 20 degrees of vertical
> when the aircraft is in a normal flight attitude and if it is
> mounted to a non-metallic air frame, a supplementary ground plane
> must be installed.
>
> What happens if one were to mount the antenna horizontally?
>
> Is there a need for a ground plane in a composite aircraft?
>
> I would appreciate installation tips from builders who have figured
> this out already.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Craig Ellison
> A205
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Primer for Zn-coated steel |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
If the tubes are steel, powder coating is o.k. Aluminum may not as the
fusing temperature may alter the strength and temper of the aluminum. FAA
will not approve aluminum to be powder coated for certified aircraft, so you
might do some checking before using this process.
Cy Galley
Editor, EAA Safety Programs
cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org
----- Original Message -----
From: <DuaneFamly@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Primer for Zn-coated steel
> --> Europa-List message posted by: DuaneFamly@aol.com
>
>
> I concur with Rob on the tubes being aluminum. Your magnet test will be
> conclusive. I chose to take most of the tubing from the kit and sent it
out to be
> powder coated. They will clean and coat it and you should never have a
problem.
> You can also pick a nice color. The cost to me was about $80 US and three
> days time. Make sure you mask off the bottom of the control sticks where
they go
> into the CS01 with CS16b spacer. It's a snug fit to begin with.
>
> Mike Duane A207
> Redding, California
> XS Trigear
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Primer for Zn-coated steel |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@ukonline.co.uk>
Well said CY.
Those choosing to ignore this advice do so at their peril.
I'm sure that the Europa Club Safety Representative and /or the PFA
delegated metalurgist will pass likewise statements also to this effect?
regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Cy Galley
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Primer for Zn-coated steel
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
If the tubes are steel, powder coating is o.k. Aluminum may not as the
fusing temperature may alter the strength and temper of the aluminum. FAA
will not approve aluminum to be powder coated for certified aircraft, so you
might do some checking before using this process.
Cy Galley
Editor, EAA Safety Programs
cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org
----- Original Message -----
From: <DuaneFamly@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Primer for Zn-coated steel
> --> Europa-List message posted by: DuaneFamly@aol.com
>
>
> I concur with Rob on the tubes being aluminum. Your magnet test will be
> conclusive. I chose to take most of the tubing from the kit and sent it
out to be
> powder coated. They will clean and coat it and you should never have a
problem.
> You can also pick a nice color. The cost to me was about $80 US and three
> days time. Make sure you mask off the bottom of the control sticks where
they go
> into the CS01 with CS16b spacer. It's a snug fit to begin with.
>
> Mike Duane A207
> Redding, California
> XS Trigear
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Primer for Zn-coated steel |
--> Europa-List message posted by: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com
In a message dated 7/1/2003 9:29:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
cgalley@qcbc.org writes:
> If the tubes are steel, powder coating is o.k. Aluminum may not as the
> fusing temperature may alter the strength and temper of the aluminum. FAA
> will not approve aluminum to be powder coated for certified aircraft, so you
> might do some checking before using this process.
Powder coating is also known for hiding cracks, especially in welded areas.
Before I found this out I had my nose gear mount and rudder pedals
powdercoated. I was happy with the finish until I started handling and installing
the
parts. The tubing was zinc coated to start with (shiney, gold finish) and now the
powder coat is chipping off. I will likely scuff sand and repaint with Corlar
primer, then a top coat.
Regards,
John Lawton
Dunlap, TN
A-245
Message 6
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| Subject: | Primer for Zn-coated steel |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@ukonline.co.uk>
Hi! John.
I believe that sanding is "bad news" with likelihood of inducing fatigue
cracks better degrease and aerosol spray IMHO. Pencil marks and the like
have been known to be an issue also?
Suggest those competants in this field will advice the forum ? Of course
scuff sanding is often called for on embedded components but I guess they
don't get the stresses of flexing in that position?
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
TELEDYNMCS@aol.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Primer for Zn-coated steel
--> Europa-List message posted by: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com
In a message dated 7/1/2003 9:29:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
cgalley@qcbc.org writes:
> If the tubes are steel, powder coating is o.k. Aluminum may not as the
> fusing temperature may alter the strength and temper of the aluminum. FAA
> will not approve aluminum to be powder coated for certified aircraft, so
you
> might do some checking before using this process.
Powder coating is also known for hiding cracks, especially in welded areas.
Before I found this out I had my nose gear mount and rudder pedals
powdercoated. I was happy with the finish until I started handling and
installing the
parts. The tubing was zinc coated to start with (shiney, gold finish) and
now the
powder coat is chipping off. I will likely scuff sand and repaint with
Corlar
primer, then a top coat.
Regards,
John Lawton
Dunlap, TN
A-245
Message 7
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| Subject: | Primer for Zn-coated steel |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Rob Housman" <RobH@hyperion-ef.com>
Bob, I suspect your comment in re: sanding was directed at my earlier post,
not John's post on the same subject (below).
First, by "sanding" I was suggesting a fine grit which in this context I
meant 600 grit (US terminology) which will definitely not harm the aluminum.
Scuff sanding on the other hand is far more aggressive than I had in mind,
and though I doubt even that would cause trouble over time I would not do it
on these tubes. Early in my engineering career my business card said I was
an extrusion engineer for an aluminum company but in reality I was the
technical support for an aluminum tube manufacturing operation (said tubes
being cold drawn from extruded "bloom" - thick walled extruded tube) so I
have a good technical understanding of things made out of aluminum,
especially tube.
My suggesting mechanical removal of the oxide film was as an alternative to
chemical treatment, not as alternative to degreasing. No amount of
degreasing will help organic coatings stick to aluminum. In order for any
coating to adhere to any aluminum surface, that oxide film must first be
removed. Of course "removed" is a misnomer because it will instantly reform
once the bare aluminum is exposed to oxygen, but chemical or mechanical
treatment will make it less of a problem.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Europa XS Tri-Gear A070
Airfarame complete
Irvine, CA
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of R.C.Harrison
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Primer for Zn-coated steel
--> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@ukonline.co.uk>
Hi! John.
I believe that sanding is "bad news" with likelihood of inducing fatigue
cracks better degrease and aerosol spray IMHO. Pencil marks and the like
have been known to be an issue also?
Suggest those competants in this field will advice the forum ? Of course
scuff sanding is often called for on embedded components but I guess they
don't get the stresses of flexing in that position?
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
TELEDYNMCS@aol.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Primer for Zn-coated steel
--> Europa-List message posted by: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com
In a message dated 7/1/2003 9:29:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
cgalley@qcbc.org writes:
> If the tubes are steel, powder coating is o.k. Aluminum may not as the
> fusing temperature may alter the strength and temper of the aluminum. FAA
> will not approve aluminum to be powder coated for certified aircraft, so
you
> might do some checking before using this process.
Powder coating is also known for hiding cracks, especially in welded areas.
Before I found this out I had my nose gear mount and rudder pedals
powdercoated. I was happy with the finish until I started handling and
installing the
parts. The tubing was zinc coated to start with (shiney, gold finish) and
now the
powder coat is chipping off. I will likely scuff sand and repaint with
Corlar
primer, then a top coat.
Regards,
John Lawton
Dunlap, TN
A-245
Message 8
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| Subject: | Primer for Zn-coated steel |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Jeremy Davey" <jeremycrdavey@btinternet.com>
Thanks for the input, Gents. It appears there has been a change of
materials. Mine are steel, zinc coated with a chromic passivation (no, I'm
not an expert on coatings, I asked the factory :-) ) that gives them a
golden appearance similar to the cadmium on many AN fittings.
To be clear, these are the tubes under the seats and the tubes inside those.
I'd have to dig it out to check, but I think the pitch torque tube is the
same, too.
I've got some PolyFiber Metal Prime to hand, so unless someone has any
brilliant ideas, I guess I'll try that... Powder coating is out as the rear
bearings are already installed and, having removed and rebonded one last
night (acquiring numerous burns on my fingers in the process - must buy some
leather gloves), I ain't doin' that again in a hurry!
Cheers,
Jeremy
Jeremy Davey
Europa XS Monowheel 537M G-EZZA
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
DuaneFamly@aol.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Primer for Zn-coated steel
--> Europa-List message posted by: DuaneFamly@aol.com
I concur with Rob on the tubes being aluminum. Your magnet test will be
conclusive. I chose to take most of the tubing from the kit and sent it out
to be
powder coated. They will clean and coat it and you should never have a
problem.
You can also pick a nice color. The cost to me was about $80 US and three
days time. Make sure you mask off the bottom of the control sticks where
they go
into the CS01 with CS16b spacer. It's a snug fit to begin with.
Mike Duane A207
Redding, California
XS Trigear
Message 9
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
Hi
I see a number of messages regarding installation of antennas
(aerials) which indicate only a slight understanding of how they work. Most
VHF sets use a 1/4wavelength vertical antenna. If remote, this antenna
requires a groundplane which allows it full output if sized to agree with
the 50ohms in the coax cable. This size is 5% larger than the antenna pole
and can be as simple as two or three wires at equidistant angles to each
other. The handhelds have nothing like this antenna, and are particular to
the handheld itself - they are a different animal. It's true that without a
groundplane the signal will spill out, but most of it is swamped by imporper
impedance - and ELTs are insufficient enough without stifling the signal
further. If the ELT has provision for an antenna on its body, keep it there
and mount it where the antenna is relatively clear of large metal bits.
Connect a remote antenna incorrectly and kiss goodbye to 90% of the vital
message it may need to send one day.
Or contact a nearby ham of 30 years experience for a useful
word.
Cheers, Ferg VE3LVO
Message 10
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--> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Fillinger <fillinger@ameritech.net>
Fergus Kyle wrote:
> and ELTs are insufficient enough without stifling the signal
> further.
You may be amused by my running a 160 milliwatt ELT thru Jim Weir's (RST
Engineering) RF calculator spreadsheet. It will have a theoretical
reception area of 980 thousand square miles! It doesn't help if you've
engineered a perfect antenna install, but with the antenna oriented
vertically, because there will be a big void overhead in the center of
the "donut." That's why previous posts mentioned tilting it 20-degrees
to fill in the void.
Our gov't also says typical location accuracy is 12 miles even at
required 100 milliwatts (lesser the better for this purpose). A variety
of reasons make it difficult to find you within the center of the
radiation pattern, if it's anything close to circular at all. Thus
mythology that high signal strength is always good and that it's easy to
home in on the signal. Fastest and most assured rescue, if a cell phone
won't work, is direct VHF comm with passing overhead aircraft, ideally
with GPS coordinates. Also the 121.5 mHz ELT's will be phased out in a
few years.
Fred F.
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