Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:05 AM - Re: Fuel System Sealer (Miles McCallum)
2. 02:02 AM - Re: Additional thoughts on wing root fairings (Nigel Graham)
3. 06:13 AM - Re: wing root fairing (KarkelB@aol.com)
4. 06:16 AM - Re: Additional thoughts on wing root fairings ()
5. 08:54 AM - Re: Additional thoughts on wing root fairings (Fred Fillinger)
6. 10:16 AM - Re: Additional thoughts on wing root fairings (Alan Stewart)
7. 10:29 AM - Re: Additional thoughts on wing root fairings (Alan Stewart)
8. 12:04 PM - Re: Additional thoughts on wing root fairings (chris davis)
9. 12:54 PM - Re: Additional thoughts on wing root fairings (Ami McFadyean)
10. 01:23 PM - Flap root extensions (Jeff Roberts)
11. 03:12 PM - Re: Flap root extensions (Peter Lawless)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel System Sealer |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Miles McCallum" <milesm@avnet.co.uk>
Clean threads and fuel lube (fuel proof grease) works fine...
M
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Additional thoughts on wing root fairings |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Nigel Graham" <nigel_graham@btclick.com>
Fred,
You're thinking along the right lines.
In 1992 one of your fellow countrymen called Mike Arnold broke the world
speed record for aircraft weighing under 661 lbs at speed of 213.18 mph
in a self designed and build aircraft powered by a Rotax 582. In order
to achieve this he did a great deal of research and drew heavily on the
work of Hoerner. His drive to reduce interference drag led him to pay
particular attention to the wing/fuselage junction - with stunning
results.
He recorded the whole process on a series of four fairly amateurish, but
very informative videos which he now (certainly "did") markets directly.
If you are interested, you might wish to contact Mike directly at:
1203 Wanda Street
Crockett
CA 94525
The tape you need is Tape_1, "Why it goes so Fast" and cost about $30.
The optimum profile and size of the wing root fillet is dependant on the
profile of the fuselage against which it abuts - hence the large fairing
on the Spitfire and some fast glass. The Europa has a very efficient
parallel (non-divergent/convergent) fuselage section at the wing
junction and would probably not need nor benefit from an overly large
wing root fairing.
If you suffer from insomnia and have about $80 spare- or have a genuine
desire to learn more about aerodynamics, you might consider the
following book:
"Fluid Dynamic Drag"
available from:
Hoerner Fluid Dynamics
P.O. Box 65283
Vancouver,
WA 98665
Happy reading
Nigel (punter - not promoter ;-)
Gentlepeople,
After seeing the recent postings on problems of fitting the wing root
fairings......................................
..................... I seem to recall that interference drag between
fuselage
and wing primarily builds up aft of the center of lift when there is no
gentle transition.....................................
What I do know is that I would benefit emmensely if I knew whether or
not
others have looked into this issue and could learn what...if
anything...has
come of their enquiries.
Hopefully,
Fred Klein, A-194
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: wing root fairing |
--> Europa-List message posted by: KarkelB@aol.com
..I believe in the in the july/august edition of the pfa mag there was an
article about a member who achieved significant results from the reshaping of the
wing root fairing on a kiss kit plane which was approved by the pfa. Graham S
might have looked into this when designing his wing root fairing.Graham is
that so?
regards Karim.
#420
Message 4
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| Subject: | Additional thoughts on wing root fairings |
--> Europa-List message posted by: <beecho@beecho.org>
Hi Fred
I have been planning on making wing root fairings for quite some time.
An excellent $25 book by Kent Paser shows the fairings he put on his
Mustang II and they are not only simple but look like they could be
nicely done on a Europa. His story is amazing! Over 23 years he made
modification after modification and carefully documented the reasons and
results of them all. He achieved a 64 mph increase in speed and
illustrates what mods made how much of that! His discussion of cooling
drag is why I have added a cowl flap to my cowl.
You can get the book directly from Kent at: Paser Publications, 5672
West Chestnut Avenue, Littleton, CO 80128, USA.
Tom Friedland, Atascadero, CA, A 078, Mono, Jabiru, Airmaster
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred R.
Klein
Subject: Europa-List: Additional thoughts on wing root fairings
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred R. Klein"
<fklein@orcasonline.com>
Gentlepeople,
After seeing the recent postings on problems of fitting the wing root
fairings...and after checking the archives for additional and broader
discussion...I would like to inquire as to whether or not anyone has
attempted to deal with the issue of interference drag between the
fuselage
and the wing of our proud bird beyond installation of the kit-supplied
fairings. (?)
Our little fairings...even when massaged to make a clean fit...leave me
envious of the sweeping curves of the wing fillet/fairings which are
showing
up in some of the new glass ships such as the Cirrus 20; to me they are
reminiscent of those on the Staggerwing and the Spitfire, and if memory
serves, the potential for significant drag reduction is there if one
were to
pay attention to the airflow around this critical intersection. Given
that
one of the fundemental rationales behind the design of the Europa is a
low
drag, sooo-smoothe, airframe lifted by a very sophisticated wing, is
this an
aspect of the design which deserves more thought?
Of course, I recognise that these other ships don't like to have their
wings
pulled off everyday, and in setting up production for a kitplane,
compromises are inevitable in the drive for controlling costs, assuring
durability and easy handling. And I understand that such mods would be a
no-no in the UK, and that significant expense would be involved in the
Company getting certification approval for such a mod.
Still, I can't help but believe that cruise speed and fuel economy could
be
significantly enhanced with the proper aerodynamic transition between
fuselage and wing. So I'm thinking about a really big fairing/fillet...I
want to see that trailing edge of the wing sweep aft along the fuselage
in a
quarter of an elipse with a half-major axis of say 30 inches and a
half-minor axis of say 24 inches, with a generous curvature between
fuselage
and wing.
My sense is that the technical problems relating to pulling the wings,
whether such a fairing be fixed to the fuselage or to the wing, and
allowing
for full-span flap extension are all solvable.
And I'm not an aerodynamicist, and probably know just enough to get
myself
in real trouble. I seem to recall that interference drag between
fuselage
and wing primarily builds up aft of the center of lift when there is no
gentle transition, but I may be completely off-base. Perhaps fairing the
leading edge is just as important...I do not know.
What I do know is that I would benefit emmensely if I knew whether or
not
others have looked into this issue and could learn what...if
anything...has
come of their enquiries.
Hopefully,
Fred Klein, A-194
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Additional thoughts on wing root fairings |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Fillinger <fillinger@ameritech.net>
Fred R. Klein wrote:
>
> And I'm not an aerodynamicist, and probably know just enough to get myself
> in real trouble. I seem to recall that interference drag between fuselage
> and wing primarily builds up aft of the center of lift when there is no
> gentle transition, but I may be completely off-base. Perhaps fairing the
> leading edge is just as important...I do not know.
The first part is apparently valid, and common is from no to small
fillet radius from leading edge to max chord thickness, then increasing
in radius to between 4-8% times chord at the trailing edge. Extending
the fairing aft of trailing edge is very important, but how it should
all look on a given fuselage is something only a wind tunnel can
disclose. Hoerner's work looks at various aspects in isolation, meaning
he doesn't tell you exactly how to design the fairing. Strojnik
("Laminar Aircraft Design") says there are "no fixed rules," and points
out that if too large, other types of drag increase especially in
cruise. Raymer ("aircraft Design: A conceptual Approach") implies that
various fairing arrangements can be roughly equivalent in efficiency,
and at minimum "eyeball" it so that it "looks good."
Guess this doesn't help much, but might save folks some $$ in not buying
too many books!
Fred F.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Additional thoughts on wing root fairings |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Stewart" <alan.stewart@blueyonder.co.uk>
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Parkin
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Additional thoughts on wing root fairings
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Michael Parkin"
--> <Mikenjulie.Parkin@btopenworld.com>
Fred,
I am not convinced that the performance could be significantly improved
with a change of wing fillet.
Having just returned from the EAS Fly-in in Switzerland, travelling
along at 130 knots IAS on 18 lts/hr and leaving most spamcans behind in
the French dust I am not sure the effort would be worth the final
result.
The phrase, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" springs to mind.
regards,
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred R. Klein" <fklein@orcasonline.com>
Subject: Europa-List: Additional thoughts on wing root fairings
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred R. Klein"
<fklein@orcasonline.com>
>
> Still, I can't help but believe that cruise speed and fuel economy
> could
be
> significantly enhanced with the proper aerodynamic transition between
> fuselage and wing. So I'm thinking about a really big
> fairing/fillet...I want to see that trailing edge of the wing sweep
> aft along the fuselage in
a
> quarter of an elipse with a half-major axis of say 30 inches and a
> half-minor axis of say 24 inches, with a generous curvature between
fuselage and wing.
> Hopefully,
>
> Fred Klein, A-194
>
>
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Additional thoughts on wing root fairings |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Stewart" <alan.stewart@blueyonder.co.uk>
I'm not convinced either.
I've believed for some time that the aircraft is near to its practical
performance limits, taking into account engine power, fuselage and wing
design and weight. Theoretical claims are easy to make, but more
difficult to substantiate. I'm impressed if the figure is truly 130kts
TAS at 18 litres/hr (low altitude), and would have considered around
120kts+ on a 912 to be approximately right at just over 5000RPM at
18l/hr. Do you have a VP prop or a different engine ?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Parkin
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Additional thoughts on wing root fairings
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Michael Parkin"
--> <Mikenjulie.Parkin@btopenworld.com>
Fred,
I am not convinced that the performance could be significantly improved
with a change of wing fillet.
Having just returned from the EAS Fly-in in Switzerland, travelling
along at 130 knots IAS on 18 lts/hr and leaving most spamcans behind in
the French dust I am not sure the effort would be worth the final
result.
The phrase, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" springs to mind.
regards,
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred R. Klein" <fklein@orcasonline.com>
Subject: Europa-List: Additional thoughts on wing root fairings
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred R. Klein"
<fklein@orcasonline.com>
>
> Still, I can't help but believe that cruise speed and fuel economy
> could
be
> significantly enhanced with the proper aerodynamic transition between
> fuselage and wing. So I'm thinking about a really big
> fairing/fillet...I want to see that trailing edge of the wing sweep
> aft along the fuselage in
a
> quarter of an elipse with a half-major axis of say 30 inches and a
> half-minor axis of say 24 inches, with a generous curvature between
fuselage and wing.
> Hopefully,
>
> Fred Klein, A-194
>
>
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Additional thoughts on wing root fairings |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "chris davis" <scrounge69@comcast.net>
test
----- Original Message -----
From: <beecho@beecho.org>
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Additional thoughts on wing root fairings
> --> Europa-List message posted by: <beecho@beecho.org>
>
> Hi Fred
>
> I have been planning on making wing root fairings for quite some time.
> An excellent $25 book by Kent Paser shows the fairings he put on his
> Mustang II and they are not only simple but look like they could be
> nicely done on a Europa. His story is amazing! Over 23 years he made
> modification after modification and carefully documented the reasons and
> results of them all. He achieved a 64 mph increase in speed and
> illustrates what mods made how much of that! His discussion of cooling
> drag is why I have added a cowl flap to my cowl.
>
> You can get the book directly from Kent at: Paser Publications, 5672
> West Chestnut Avenue, Littleton, CO 80128, USA.
>
> Tom Friedland, Atascadero, CA, A 078, Mono, Jabiru, Airmaster
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred R.
> Klein
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Europa-List: Additional thoughts on wing root fairings
>
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred R. Klein"
> <fklein@orcasonline.com>
>
> Gentlepeople,
>
> After seeing the recent postings on problems of fitting the wing root
> fairings...and after checking the archives for additional and broader
> discussion...I would like to inquire as to whether or not anyone has
> attempted to deal with the issue of interference drag between the
> fuselage
> and the wing of our proud bird beyond installation of the kit-supplied
> fairings. (?)
>
> Our little fairings...even when massaged to make a clean fit...leave me
> envious of the sweeping curves of the wing fillet/fairings which are
> showing
> up in some of the new glass ships such as the Cirrus 20; to me they are
> reminiscent of those on the Staggerwing and the Spitfire, and if memory
> serves, the potential for significant drag reduction is there if one
> were to
> pay attention to the airflow around this critical intersection. Given
> that
> one of the fundemental rationales behind the design of the Europa is a
> low
> drag, sooo-smoothe, airframe lifted by a very sophisticated wing, is
> this an
> aspect of the design which deserves more thought?
>
> Of course, I recognise that these other ships don't like to have their
> wings
> pulled off everyday, and in setting up production for a kitplane,
> compromises are inevitable in the drive for controlling costs, assuring
> durability and easy handling. And I understand that such mods would be a
> no-no in the UK, and that significant expense would be involved in the
> Company getting certification approval for such a mod.
>
> Still, I can't help but believe that cruise speed and fuel economy could
> be
> significantly enhanced with the proper aerodynamic transition between
> fuselage and wing. So I'm thinking about a really big fairing/fillet...I
> want to see that trailing edge of the wing sweep aft along the fuselage
> in a
> quarter of an elipse with a half-major axis of say 30 inches and a
> half-minor axis of say 24 inches, with a generous curvature between
> fuselage
> and wing.
>
> My sense is that the technical problems relating to pulling the wings,
> whether such a fairing be fixed to the fuselage or to the wing, and
> allowing
> for full-span flap extension are all solvable.
>
> And I'm not an aerodynamicist, and probably know just enough to get
> myself
> in real trouble. I seem to recall that interference drag between
> fuselage
> and wing primarily builds up aft of the center of lift when there is no
> gentle transition, but I may be completely off-base. Perhaps fairing the
> leading edge is just as important...I do not know.
>
> What I do know is that I would benefit emmensely if I knew whether or
> not
> others have looked into this issue and could learn what...if
> anything...has
> come of their enquiries.
>
> Hopefully,
>
> Fred Klein, A-194
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Additional thoughts on wing root fairings |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Ami McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
Been there, done that, didn't work. But looks nicer (IMHO).
Although low speed handling and behaviour in the flair is possibly improved
and there is no hint of "vortices" upsetting the tailplane at high AoA, as
had been hypothesised.
Low-speed (high AoA) fuel burn is exceptionally low, if that bears any
relation to the fillets.
What the Staggerwing and Spitfire have is, I think, as much to do with
fashions at the time.
Bruce Carmichael could offer no practical guidance on the subject; other
than "don't do nothing dumb"!
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred R. Klein" <fklein@orcasonline.com>
Subject: Europa-List: Additional thoughts on wing root fairings
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred R. Klein"
<fklein@orcasonline.com>
>
> Gentlepeople,
>
> After seeing the recent postings on problems of fitting the wing root
> fairings...and after checking the archives for additional and broader
> discussion...I would like to inquire as to whether or not anyone has
> attempted to deal with the issue of interference drag between the fuselage
> and the wing of our proud bird beyond installation of the kit-supplied
> fairings. (?)
>
> Our little fairings...even when massaged to make a clean fit...leave me
> envious of the sweeping curves of the wing fillet/fairings which are
showing
> up in some of the new glass ships such as the Cirrus 20; to me they are
> reminiscent of those on the Staggerwing and the Spitfire, and if memory
> serves, the potential for significant drag reduction is there if one were
to
> pay attention to the airflow around this critical intersection. Given that
> one of the fundemental rationales behind the design of the Europa is a low
> drag, sooo-smoothe, airframe lifted by a very sophisticated wing, is this
an
> aspect of the design which deserves more thought?
>
> Of course, I recognise that these other ships don't like to have their
wings
> pulled off everyday, and in setting up production for a kitplane,
> compromises are inevitable in the drive for controlling costs, assuring
> durability and easy handling. And I understand that such mods would be a
> no-no in the UK, and that significant expense would be involved in the
> Company getting certification approval for such a mod.
>
> Still, I can't help but believe that cruise speed and fuel economy could
be
> significantly enhanced with the proper aerodynamic transition between
> fuselage and wing. So I'm thinking about a really big fairing/fillet...I
> want to see that trailing edge of the wing sweep aft along the fuselage in
a
> quarter of an elipse with a half-major axis of say 30 inches and a
> half-minor axis of say 24 inches, with a generous curvature between
fuselage
> and wing.
>
> My sense is that the technical problems relating to pulling the wings,
> whether such a fairing be fixed to the fuselage or to the wing, and
allowing
> for full-span flap extension are all solvable.
>
> And I'm not an aerodynamicist, and probably know just enough to get myself
> in real trouble. I seem to recall that interference drag between fuselage
> and wing primarily builds up aft of the center of lift when there is no
> gentle transition, but I may be completely off-base. Perhaps fairing the
> leading edge is just as important...I do not know.
>
> What I do know is that I would benefit emmensely if I knew whether or not
> others have looked into this issue and could learn what...if
anything...has
> come of their enquiries.
>
> Hopefully,
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Flap root extensions |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Jeff Roberts <jeff@rmmm.net>
Similar but new subject:
I have been thinking of instead of bringing the flap root extensions to fit
1/4 inch from the fuselage. Adding a flair out from the fuselage to meet the
flap extensions. This flair could have a trailing edge back to a sharp point
as seen on other GA aircraft. We could leave a slot on the bottom for the
flap tube. Other than looks a dont think their would be any benefits or
losses as it would only stick out from the side an inch or so. Has any
others gone before?
Jeff
A258 Tri
Message 11
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| Subject: | Flap root extensions |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Lawless" <pete@lawless.info>
Jeff
I vaguely recollect the factory tested a classic with this mod years ago.
It turned out the airflow was much worse than with no root extensions.
Worth asking them about it.
Regards
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jeff Roberts
Subject: Europa-List: Flap root extensions
--> Europa-List message posted by: Jeff Roberts <jeff@rmmm.net>
Similar but new subject:
I have been thinking of instead of bringing the flap root extensions to fit
1/4 inch from the fuselage. Adding a flair out from the fuselage to meet the
flap extensions. This flair could have a trailing edge back to a sharp point
as seen on other GA aircraft. We could leave a slot on the bottom for the
flap tube. Other than looks a dont think their would be any benefits or
losses as it would only stick out from the side an inch or so. Has any
others gone before?
Jeff
A258 Tri
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