---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 08/22/03: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:05 AM - Re: Fuel System Sealer (Miles McCallum) 2. 02:02 AM - Re: Additional thoughts on wing root fairings (Nigel Graham) 3. 06:13 AM - Re: wing root fairing (KarkelB@aol.com) 4. 06:16 AM - Re: Additional thoughts on wing root fairings () 5. 08:54 AM - Re: Additional thoughts on wing root fairings (Fred Fillinger) 6. 10:16 AM - Re: Additional thoughts on wing root fairings (Alan Stewart) 7. 10:29 AM - Re: Additional thoughts on wing root fairings (Alan Stewart) 8. 12:04 PM - Re: Additional thoughts on wing root fairings (chris davis) 9. 12:54 PM - Re: Additional thoughts on wing root fairings (Ami McFadyean) 10. 01:23 PM - Flap root extensions (Jeff Roberts) 11. 03:12 PM - Re: Flap root extensions (Peter Lawless) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:05:42 AM PST US From: "Miles McCallum" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel System Sealer --> Europa-List message posted by: "Miles McCallum" Clean threads and fuel lube (fuel proof grease) works fine... M ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:02:23 AM PST US From: "Nigel Graham" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Additional thoughts on wing root fairings --> Europa-List message posted by: "Nigel Graham" Fred, You're thinking along the right lines. In 1992 one of your fellow countrymen called Mike Arnold broke the world speed record for aircraft weighing under 661 lbs at speed of 213.18 mph in a self designed and build aircraft powered by a Rotax 582. In order to achieve this he did a great deal of research and drew heavily on the work of Hoerner. His drive to reduce interference drag led him to pay particular attention to the wing/fuselage junction - with stunning results. He recorded the whole process on a series of four fairly amateurish, but very informative videos which he now (certainly "did") markets directly. If you are interested, you might wish to contact Mike directly at: 1203 Wanda Street Crockett CA 94525 The tape you need is Tape_1, "Why it goes so Fast" and cost about $30. The optimum profile and size of the wing root fillet is dependant on the profile of the fuselage against which it abuts - hence the large fairing on the Spitfire and some fast glass. The Europa has a very efficient parallel (non-divergent/convergent) fuselage section at the wing junction and would probably not need nor benefit from an overly large wing root fairing. If you suffer from insomnia and have about $80 spare- or have a genuine desire to learn more about aerodynamics, you might consider the following book: "Fluid Dynamic Drag" available from: Hoerner Fluid Dynamics P.O. Box 65283 Vancouver, WA 98665 Happy reading Nigel (punter - not promoter ;-) Gentlepeople, After seeing the recent postings on problems of fitting the wing root fairings...................................... ..................... I seem to recall that interference drag between fuselage and wing primarily builds up aft of the center of lift when there is no gentle transition..................................... What I do know is that I would benefit emmensely if I knew whether or not others have looked into this issue and could learn what...if anything...has come of their enquiries. Hopefully, Fred Klein, A-194 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:13:11 AM PST US From: KarkelB@aol.com Subject: Europa-List: Re: wing root fairing --> Europa-List message posted by: KarkelB@aol.com ..I believe in the in the july/august edition of the pfa mag there was an article about a member who achieved significant results from the reshaping of the wing root fairing on a kiss kit plane which was approved by the pfa. Graham S might have looked into this when designing his wing root fairing.Graham is that so? regards Karim. #420 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:16:30 AM PST US From: Subject: RE: Europa-List: Additional thoughts on wing root fairings --> Europa-List message posted by: Hi Fred I have been planning on making wing root fairings for quite some time. An excellent $25 book by Kent Paser shows the fairings he put on his Mustang II and they are not only simple but look like they could be nicely done on a Europa. His story is amazing! Over 23 years he made modification after modification and carefully documented the reasons and results of them all. He achieved a 64 mph increase in speed and illustrates what mods made how much of that! His discussion of cooling drag is why I have added a cowl flap to my cowl. You can get the book directly from Kent at: Paser Publications, 5672 West Chestnut Avenue, Littleton, CO 80128, USA. Tom Friedland, Atascadero, CA, A 078, Mono, Jabiru, Airmaster -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred R. Klein Subject: Europa-List: Additional thoughts on wing root fairings --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred R. Klein" Gentlepeople, After seeing the recent postings on problems of fitting the wing root fairings...and after checking the archives for additional and broader discussion...I would like to inquire as to whether or not anyone has attempted to deal with the issue of interference drag between the fuselage and the wing of our proud bird beyond installation of the kit-supplied fairings. (?) Our little fairings...even when massaged to make a clean fit...leave me envious of the sweeping curves of the wing fillet/fairings which are showing up in some of the new glass ships such as the Cirrus 20; to me they are reminiscent of those on the Staggerwing and the Spitfire, and if memory serves, the potential for significant drag reduction is there if one were to pay attention to the airflow around this critical intersection. Given that one of the fundemental rationales behind the design of the Europa is a low drag, sooo-smoothe, airframe lifted by a very sophisticated wing, is this an aspect of the design which deserves more thought? Of course, I recognise that these other ships don't like to have their wings pulled off everyday, and in setting up production for a kitplane, compromises are inevitable in the drive for controlling costs, assuring durability and easy handling. And I understand that such mods would be a no-no in the UK, and that significant expense would be involved in the Company getting certification approval for such a mod. Still, I can't help but believe that cruise speed and fuel economy could be significantly enhanced with the proper aerodynamic transition between fuselage and wing. So I'm thinking about a really big fairing/fillet...I want to see that trailing edge of the wing sweep aft along the fuselage in a quarter of an elipse with a half-major axis of say 30 inches and a half-minor axis of say 24 inches, with a generous curvature between fuselage and wing. My sense is that the technical problems relating to pulling the wings, whether such a fairing be fixed to the fuselage or to the wing, and allowing for full-span flap extension are all solvable. And I'm not an aerodynamicist, and probably know just enough to get myself in real trouble. I seem to recall that interference drag between fuselage and wing primarily builds up aft of the center of lift when there is no gentle transition, but I may be completely off-base. Perhaps fairing the leading edge is just as important...I do not know. What I do know is that I would benefit emmensely if I knew whether or not others have looked into this issue and could learn what...if anything...has come of their enquiries. Hopefully, Fred Klein, A-194 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:54:06 AM PST US From: Fred Fillinger Subject: Re: Europa-List: Additional thoughts on wing root fairings --> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Fillinger Fred R. Klein wrote: > > And I'm not an aerodynamicist, and probably know just enough to get myself > in real trouble. I seem to recall that interference drag between fuselage > and wing primarily builds up aft of the center of lift when there is no > gentle transition, but I may be completely off-base. Perhaps fairing the > leading edge is just as important...I do not know. The first part is apparently valid, and common is from no to small fillet radius from leading edge to max chord thickness, then increasing in radius to between 4-8% times chord at the trailing edge. Extending the fairing aft of trailing edge is very important, but how it should all look on a given fuselage is something only a wind tunnel can disclose. Hoerner's work looks at various aspects in isolation, meaning he doesn't tell you exactly how to design the fairing. Strojnik ("Laminar Aircraft Design") says there are "no fixed rules," and points out that if too large, other types of drag increase especially in cruise. Raymer ("aircraft Design: A conceptual Approach") implies that various fairing arrangements can be roughly equivalent in efficiency, and at minimum "eyeball" it so that it "looks good." Guess this doesn't help much, but might save folks some $$ in not buying too many books! Fred F. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:16:57 AM PST US From: "Alan Stewart" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Additional thoughts on wing root fairings --> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Stewart" -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Parkin Subject: Re: Europa-List: Additional thoughts on wing root fairings --> Europa-List message posted by: "Michael Parkin" --> Fred, I am not convinced that the performance could be significantly improved with a change of wing fillet. Having just returned from the EAS Fly-in in Switzerland, travelling along at 130 knots IAS on 18 lts/hr and leaving most spamcans behind in the French dust I am not sure the effort would be worth the final result. The phrase, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" springs to mind. regards, Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred R. Klein" Subject: Europa-List: Additional thoughts on wing root fairings > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred R. Klein" > > Still, I can't help but believe that cruise speed and fuel economy > could be > significantly enhanced with the proper aerodynamic transition between > fuselage and wing. So I'm thinking about a really big > fairing/fillet...I want to see that trailing edge of the wing sweep > aft along the fuselage in a > quarter of an elipse with a half-major axis of say 30 inches and a > half-minor axis of say 24 inches, with a generous curvature between fuselage and wing. > Hopefully, > > Fred Klein, A-194 > > direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:29:31 AM PST US From: "Alan Stewart" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Additional thoughts on wing root fairings --> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Stewart" I'm not convinced either. I've believed for some time that the aircraft is near to its practical performance limits, taking into account engine power, fuselage and wing design and weight. Theoretical claims are easy to make, but more difficult to substantiate. I'm impressed if the figure is truly 130kts TAS at 18 litres/hr (low altitude), and would have considered around 120kts+ on a 912 to be approximately right at just over 5000RPM at 18l/hr. Do you have a VP prop or a different engine ? -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Parkin Subject: Re: Europa-List: Additional thoughts on wing root fairings --> Europa-List message posted by: "Michael Parkin" --> Fred, I am not convinced that the performance could be significantly improved with a change of wing fillet. Having just returned from the EAS Fly-in in Switzerland, travelling along at 130 knots IAS on 18 lts/hr and leaving most spamcans behind in the French dust I am not sure the effort would be worth the final result. The phrase, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" springs to mind. regards, Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred R. Klein" Subject: Europa-List: Additional thoughts on wing root fairings > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred R. Klein" > > Still, I can't help but believe that cruise speed and fuel economy > could be > significantly enhanced with the proper aerodynamic transition between > fuselage and wing. So I'm thinking about a really big > fairing/fillet...I want to see that trailing edge of the wing sweep > aft along the fuselage in a > quarter of an elipse with a half-major axis of say 30 inches and a > half-minor axis of say 24 inches, with a generous curvature between fuselage and wing. > Hopefully, > > Fred Klein, A-194 > > direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:04:13 PM PST US From: "chris davis" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Additional thoughts on wing root fairings --> Europa-List message posted by: "chris davis" test ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: RE: Europa-List: Additional thoughts on wing root fairings > --> Europa-List message posted by: > > Hi Fred > > I have been planning on making wing root fairings for quite some time. > An excellent $25 book by Kent Paser shows the fairings he put on his > Mustang II and they are not only simple but look like they could be > nicely done on a Europa. His story is amazing! Over 23 years he made > modification after modification and carefully documented the reasons and > results of them all. He achieved a 64 mph increase in speed and > illustrates what mods made how much of that! His discussion of cooling > drag is why I have added a cowl flap to my cowl. > > You can get the book directly from Kent at: Paser Publications, 5672 > West Chestnut Avenue, Littleton, CO 80128, USA. > > Tom Friedland, Atascadero, CA, A 078, Mono, Jabiru, Airmaster > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred R. > Klein > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Europa-List: Additional thoughts on wing root fairings > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred R. Klein" > > > Gentlepeople, > > After seeing the recent postings on problems of fitting the wing root > fairings...and after checking the archives for additional and broader > discussion...I would like to inquire as to whether or not anyone has > attempted to deal with the issue of interference drag between the > fuselage > and the wing of our proud bird beyond installation of the kit-supplied > fairings. (?) > > Our little fairings...even when massaged to make a clean fit...leave me > envious of the sweeping curves of the wing fillet/fairings which are > showing > up in some of the new glass ships such as the Cirrus 20; to me they are > reminiscent of those on the Staggerwing and the Spitfire, and if memory > serves, the potential for significant drag reduction is there if one > were to > pay attention to the airflow around this critical intersection. Given > that > one of the fundemental rationales behind the design of the Europa is a > low > drag, sooo-smoothe, airframe lifted by a very sophisticated wing, is > this an > aspect of the design which deserves more thought? > > Of course, I recognise that these other ships don't like to have their > wings > pulled off everyday, and in setting up production for a kitplane, > compromises are inevitable in the drive for controlling costs, assuring > durability and easy handling. And I understand that such mods would be a > no-no in the UK, and that significant expense would be involved in the > Company getting certification approval for such a mod. > > Still, I can't help but believe that cruise speed and fuel economy could > be > significantly enhanced with the proper aerodynamic transition between > fuselage and wing. So I'm thinking about a really big fairing/fillet...I > want to see that trailing edge of the wing sweep aft along the fuselage > in a > quarter of an elipse with a half-major axis of say 30 inches and a > half-minor axis of say 24 inches, with a generous curvature between > fuselage > and wing. > > My sense is that the technical problems relating to pulling the wings, > whether such a fairing be fixed to the fuselage or to the wing, and > allowing > for full-span flap extension are all solvable. > > And I'm not an aerodynamicist, and probably know just enough to get > myself > in real trouble. I seem to recall that interference drag between > fuselage > and wing primarily builds up aft of the center of lift when there is no > gentle transition, but I may be completely off-base. Perhaps fairing the > leading edge is just as important...I do not know. > > What I do know is that I would benefit emmensely if I knew whether or > not > others have looked into this issue and could learn what...if > anything...has > come of their enquiries. > > Hopefully, > > Fred Klein, A-194 > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:54:00 PM PST US From: "Ami McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Additional thoughts on wing root fairings --> Europa-List message posted by: "Ami McFadyean" Been there, done that, didn't work. But looks nicer (IMHO). Although low speed handling and behaviour in the flair is possibly improved and there is no hint of "vortices" upsetting the tailplane at high AoA, as had been hypothesised. Low-speed (high AoA) fuel burn is exceptionally low, if that bears any relation to the fillets. What the Staggerwing and Spitfire have is, I think, as much to do with fashions at the time. Bruce Carmichael could offer no practical guidance on the subject; other than "don't do nothing dumb"! Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred R. Klein" Subject: Europa-List: Additional thoughts on wing root fairings > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred R. Klein" > > Gentlepeople, > > After seeing the recent postings on problems of fitting the wing root > fairings...and after checking the archives for additional and broader > discussion...I would like to inquire as to whether or not anyone has > attempted to deal with the issue of interference drag between the fuselage > and the wing of our proud bird beyond installation of the kit-supplied > fairings. (?) > > Our little fairings...even when massaged to make a clean fit...leave me > envious of the sweeping curves of the wing fillet/fairings which are showing > up in some of the new glass ships such as the Cirrus 20; to me they are > reminiscent of those on the Staggerwing and the Spitfire, and if memory > serves, the potential for significant drag reduction is there if one were to > pay attention to the airflow around this critical intersection. Given that > one of the fundemental rationales behind the design of the Europa is a low > drag, sooo-smoothe, airframe lifted by a very sophisticated wing, is this an > aspect of the design which deserves more thought? > > Of course, I recognise that these other ships don't like to have their wings > pulled off everyday, and in setting up production for a kitplane, > compromises are inevitable in the drive for controlling costs, assuring > durability and easy handling. And I understand that such mods would be a > no-no in the UK, and that significant expense would be involved in the > Company getting certification approval for such a mod. > > Still, I can't help but believe that cruise speed and fuel economy could be > significantly enhanced with the proper aerodynamic transition between > fuselage and wing. So I'm thinking about a really big fairing/fillet...I > want to see that trailing edge of the wing sweep aft along the fuselage in a > quarter of an elipse with a half-major axis of say 30 inches and a > half-minor axis of say 24 inches, with a generous curvature between fuselage > and wing. > > My sense is that the technical problems relating to pulling the wings, > whether such a fairing be fixed to the fuselage or to the wing, and allowing > for full-span flap extension are all solvable. > > And I'm not an aerodynamicist, and probably know just enough to get myself > in real trouble. I seem to recall that interference drag between fuselage > and wing primarily builds up aft of the center of lift when there is no > gentle transition, but I may be completely off-base. Perhaps fairing the > leading edge is just as important...I do not know. > > What I do know is that I would benefit emmensely if I knew whether or not > others have looked into this issue and could learn what...if anything...has > come of their enquiries. > > Hopefully, > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:23:56 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Flap root extensions From: Jeff Roberts --> Europa-List message posted by: Jeff Roberts Similar but new subject: I have been thinking of instead of bringing the flap root extensions to fit 1/4 inch from the fuselage. Adding a flair out from the fuselage to meet the flap extensions. This flair could have a trailing edge back to a sharp point as seen on other GA aircraft. We could leave a slot on the bottom for the flap tube. Other than looks a dont think their would be any benefits or losses as it would only stick out from the side an inch or so. Has any others gone before? Jeff A258 Tri ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:12:31 PM PST US From: "Peter Lawless" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Flap root extensions --> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Lawless" Jeff I vaguely recollect the factory tested a classic with this mod years ago. It turned out the airflow was much worse than with no root extensions. Worth asking them about it. Regards Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jeff Roberts Subject: Europa-List: Flap root extensions --> Europa-List message posted by: Jeff Roberts Similar but new subject: I have been thinking of instead of bringing the flap root extensions to fit 1/4 inch from the fuselage. Adding a flair out from the fuselage to meet the flap extensions. This flair could have a trailing edge back to a sharp point as seen on other GA aircraft. We could leave a slot on the bottom for the flap tube. Other than looks a dont think their would be any benefits or losses as it would only stick out from the side an inch or so. Has any others gone before? Jeff A258 Tri