Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:26 AM - Re: FW: Tail plane action (owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com)
2. 08:17 AM - Confessions of a doorlatch hacker (Fergus Kyle)
3. 08:50 AM - Re: FW: Tail plane action (Gerry Holland)
4. 08:54 AM - Re: Glide ratios (Ray M. Knapp)
5. 10:00 AM - Re: Confessions of a doorlatch hacker (hedley brown)
6. 11:38 AM - Re: Confessions of a doorlatch hacker (Fergus Kyle)
7. 02:19 PM - Re: Glide ratios (CHUCK RHOADS)
8. 02:37 PM - peel ply (chris davis)
9. 04:17 PM - Re: peel ply (Cliff Shaw)
10. 04:18 PM - Re: peel ply (TELEDYNMCS@aol.com)
11. 05:10 PM - Re: peel ply (Kingsley Hurst)
12. 09:42 PM - Re: 912 - Classic - Exhaust Pipe Fracture Survey (Baker, Dino (FMC))
13. 10:57 PM - Gear Unlatching (Kingsley Hurst)
14. 11:30 PM - Re: Gear Unlatching (Gerry Holland)
15. 11:43 PM - Re: peel ply (Gerry Holland)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: FW: Tail plane action |
--> Europa-List message posted by:
Gerry.
I reccomend you contact Neville at the factory about this. As far as I can
recall they state in the manual that one should just do that should the
counterweights be insufficient to balance the stabs. I drilled out 250 grams
on mine to balance the fully painted stabs.
Regards,
Hans
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gerry Holland" <gnholland@onetel.com>
Subject: Europa-List: FW: Tail plane action
> --> Europa-List message posted by: Gerry Holland <gnholland@onetel.com>
>
> Resent as previously sent in HTML.
>
>
> Im carrying out full fitment of all parts of Aircraft prior to painting in
> 2 weeks time and checking actions and travels.
> Most systems are within limits but the big contention is Tail plane
action.
> Seemed heavy.
>
> Ive visited archives and found others have laboured in this area so Im
> looking for some feedback on Tail plane weights.
>
> The typical counterbalance weights as delivered are approx 2500 3000 grams
> in total. Mine are 2950 grams.
>
> My Tail Planes with Anti servo Tabs fitted weigh - Port: 12.5 lbs -
> Starboard: 12.9 lbs
> Adding the full counterbalance weight does not give me full balance.
> Adding another 500 grams makes the action and balance feel much better.
>
> The Pitch Control Rod is disconnected and each action seems free in
> movement.
>
> Could someone be kind enough to weigh a full finished (painted) Tail
plane,
> Port or Starboard to give me a rough guide on typical weight and any
> Counterbalance weights that are yet to be fitted.
>
> Regards
>
> Gerry
>
> Gerry Holland
> Europa 384
> G-FIZY
> +44 7808 402404
> gnholland@onetel.com
>
> ------ End of Forwarded Message
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Confessions of a doorlatch hacker |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
Cheers,
I am so far behind in building, I have taken to making ancillary
pieces out of sequence whenever I cannot follow the manual for environmental
or other reasons. This applies to those who also must deviate where possible
from the manual sequence when necessary.
DOOR LATCHES
This applies to hacking the hardware in
Classic manual, Door Latches, Chap 35, p.35-2, fabricating DL08R&F both port
& starboard bolt arms, and,
XS manual, Door Latches, Chap.33, p. 33-2, same process.
I made a habit of cutting each 10mm arm 'slightly' oversize so
that I could later reduce it to exactly the prescribed dimension. HOWEVER,
in one case I forgot to do that and verrry carefully drilled the requisite
hole so that it ended up more than the required 7mm from the end (and didn't
notice). When it came to assemble, the handle would not happily traverse to
full forward (it jambed somewhere). Finding the source of the hesitation was
time-consuming and frustrating. It was not easy to see where the jamb
occurred. While the pivots were the proper distance from each other - one
was 8mm from its end, because I had forgotten to reduce the rod to the
proper length. It therefore jambed against the axle barrel when extended to
full forward action with the internal handle. Taking it out and reducing the
dimension to the required 7mm solved the time-consuming problem.
Neville and Ivan would smile.
So if you come across the same problem as you assemble, remember
their words. Measure twice. Or, in my case, write yourself memos to
re-measure before later assembly.
I did not pen this solely for self-purification. It's just on
the offchance that there is someone as stupid as I.
Ferg
Europa A064
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: FW: Tail plane action |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Gerry Holland <gnholland@onetel.com>
Hans Hi!
> I reccomend you contact Neville at the factory about this. As far as I can
> recall they state in the manual that one should just do that should the
> counterweights be insufficient to balance the stabs. I drilled out 250 grams
> on mine to balance the fully painted stabs.
Thanks for contact. I've involved Andy at Europa.
Regards
Gerry
Message 4
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Ray M. Knapp" <rmkhomes@charter.net>
Chuck:
I was looking at the Garmin site re: the 3600, but it appears to
only have automobile mapping. Did you find an aviation navigation
feature? Where?
Thanks, Ray Knapp
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of CHUCK
RHOADS
Subject: Europa-List: Glide ratios
--> Europa-List message posted by: CHUCK RHOADS <cfrhoads@yahoo.com>
I have recently purchased the new Garmin 3600 that works using an
integrated Palm PDA. It appears to be an excellent EFIS/GPS inexpensive
color system. I am needing the glide ratio so the 3600 can determine if
I am within gliding range of an airport. My plane is a trike XS.
Thanks,
Chuck Rhoads A100
246CR
Chuck Rhoads
cfrhoads@yahoo.com
(270) 788-9366
Rte 2 Box 73C
Hardinsburg, Ky 40143
---------------------------------
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Confessions of a doorlatch hacker |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "hedley brown" <hedley@hedleybrown.flyer.co.uk>
Talking about latches....
----- Original Message ----- Yesterday, with the gear down and latched, late
on final with a wind carrying hot gas from a cooling tower of an electric
generator, I had a violent drop with so much negative g that my head bashed
the roof and the gear unlatched and with turbulent air the flaps pushed the
gear up. So I went around to sort things out, but today I have put a little
spring on the latch to keep it in its slot even when it doesn't have gravity
to do it. That experience suggests to me that we should all have a similar
little spring there. To those who say it hasn't happened to them in umpteen
hours I can only say not yet, and surely the rarity of experiencing negative
g when you have the gear down ready to land must account for the rarity of
it h
From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
Subject: Europa-List: Confessions of a doorlatch hacker
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
>
> Cheers,
> I am so far behind in building, I have taken to making
ancillary
> pieces out of sequence whenever I cannot follow the manual for
environmental
> or other reasons. This applies to those who also must deviate where
possible
> from the manual sequence when necessary.
> DOOR LATCHES
> This applies to hacking the hardware in
> Classic manual, Door Latches, Chap 35, p.35-2, fabricating DL08R&F both
port
> & starboard bolt arms, and,
> XS manual, Door Latches, Chap.33, p. 33-2, same process.
> I made a habit of cutting each 10mm arm 'slightly' oversize so
> that I could later reduce it to exactly the prescribed dimension. HOWEVER,
> in one case I forgot to do that and verrry carefully drilled the requisite
> hole so that it ended up more than the required 7mm from the end (and
didn't
> notice). When it came to assemble, the handle would not happily traverse
to
> full forward (it jambed somewhere). Finding the source of the hesitation
was
> time-consuming and frustrating. It was not easy to see where the jamb
> occurred. While the pivots were the proper distance from each other - one
> was 8mm from its end, because I had forgotten to reduce the rod to the
> proper length. It therefore jambed against the axle barrel when extended
to
> full forward action with the internal handle. Taking it out and reducing
the
> dimension to the required 7mm solved the time-consuming problem.
> Neville and Ivan would smile.
> So if you come across the same problem as you assemble,
remember
> their words. Measure twice. Or, in my case, write yourself memos to
> re-measure before later assembly.
> I did not pen this solely for self-purification. It's just on
> the offchance that there is someone as stupid as I.
> Ferg
> Europa A064
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Confessions of a doorlatch hacker |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
| > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
| >
| > Cheers,
| > I am so far behind in building, I have taken to making|
ancillary
| > pieces out of sequence whenever I cannot follow the manual for
| environmental or other reasons. This applies to those who also must
deviate where possible from the manual sequence when necessary.
| > DOOR LATCHES
| > This applies to hacking the hardware in
| > Classic manual, Door Latches, Chap 35, p.35-2, fabricating DL08R&F both
| port & starboard bolt arms, and,
| > XS manual, Door Latches, Chap.33, p. 33-2, same process.
| > I made a habit of cutting each 10mm arm 'slightly' oversize
so that I
| >could later reduce it to exactly the prescribed dimension. HOWEVER, in
one
|> case I forgot to do that and verrry carefully drilled the requisite hole
so that it
|> ended up more than the required 7mm from the end (and I didn't notice).
|> When it came to assemble, the handle would not happily traverse| to full
|> forward (it jambed somewhere). Finding the source of the hesitation was
| > time-consuming and frustrating. It was not easy to see where the jamb
| > occurred. While the pivots were the proper distance from each other -
one
| > was 8mm from its end, because I had forgotten to reduce the rod to the
| > proper length. It therefore jambed against the axle barrel when extended
to
| > full forward action with the internal handle. Taking it out and reducing
the
| > dimension to the required 7mm solved the time-consuming problem.
| > Neville and Ivan would smile.
| > So if you come across the same problem as you assemble,
|> remember their words. Measure twice. Or, in my case, write yourself memos
|> to re-measure before later assembly.
| > I did not pen this solely for self-purification. It's just
on the offchance that there is someone as stupid as I. Ferg
| > Europa A064
----- Original Message -----
From: "hedley brown" <hedley@hedleybrown.flyer.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Confessions of a doorlatch hacker
| --> Europa-List message posted by: "hedley brown"
<hedley@hedleybrown.flyer.co.uk>
|
| Talking about latches....
| ----- Original Message ----- Yesterday, with the gear down and latched,
late
| on final with a wind carrying hot gas from a cooling tower of an electric
| generator, I had a violent drop with so much negative g that my head
bashed
| the roof and the gear unlatched and with turbulent air the flaps pushed
the
| gear up. So I went around to sort things out, but today I have put a
little
| spring on the latch to keep it in its slot even when it doesn't have
gravity
| to do it. That experience suggests to me that we should all have a similar
| little spring there. To those who say it hasn't happened to them in
umpteen
| hours I can only say not yet, and surely the rarity of experiencing
negative
| g when you have the gear down ready to land must account for the rarity of
| it hedley
Well, it's not exactly door latches, but certainly important enough to curry
some interest. I have read before of someone experiencing neg G unlocking
the outriggers and that bears investigation. It may have been a message from
Nigel in regard to bumpy ground unlatching gear.
I almost made a resolution to drop some sort of 'plug' into the
down-slot to prevent bumps from unlocking the gear lever, but that won't
work for outriggers. I'll bet Nigel could come up with somethiung useful and
minimal to discourage the tendency.........
Ferg
Message 7
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--> Europa-List message posted by: CHUCK RHOADS <cfrhoads@yahoo.com>
Ray,
You are correct in that the automotive GPS programs come as standard; however, Hangar B-17 has come out with an excellent program. I have been trying to install my program with Windows XP and have had a few problems, I called them today and a new release to fix the problem for the Garmin 3600 should be complete before the week is over. Check them out at www.HangerB17.com
Chuck R
"Ray M. Knapp" <rmkhomes@charter.net> wrote:
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Ray M. Knapp"
Chuck:
I was looking at the Garmin site re: the 3600, but it appears to
only have automobile mapping. Did you find an aviation navigation
feature? Where?
Thanks, Ray Knapp
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of CHUCK
RHOADS
Subject: Europa-List: Glide ratios
--> Europa-List message posted by: CHUCK RHOADS
I have recently purchased the new Garmin 3600 that works using an
integrated Palm PDA. It appears to be an excellent EFIS/GPS inexpensive
color system. I am needing the glide ratio so the 3600 can determine if
I am within gliding range of an airport. My plane is a trike XS.
Thanks,
Chuck Rhoads A100
246CR
Chuck Rhoads
cfrhoads@yahoo.com
(270) 788-9366
Rte 2 Box 73C
Hardinsburg, Ky 40143
---------------------------------
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Chuck Rhoads
cfrhoads@yahoo.com
(270) 788-9366
Rte 2 Box 73C
Hardinsburg, Ky 40143
---------------------------------
Message 8
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "chris davis" <scrounge69@comcast.net>
Europa listers anyone have problems removing peel ply from hinge flanges etc?
threads catching under layup edges. Is there a way to cut peel ply so the edges
dont fall apart? I am begining to really hate the stuff and think I would be
better of not using it for the flanges at all! anybody tried it that way? thanks
for your thoughts .Chris DavisA160 MG
Message 9
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" <flyinggpa@comcast.net>
Where ever possible I cut the peelply larger than the wetted-out aria. You
are right, it is very hard to get all the threads out when you wet out all
the way to the edge of the peelply.
Cliff Shaw
1041 Euclid ave.
Edmonds WA 98020
(425) 776-5555
N229WC "Wile E Coyote"
New Email:" flyinggpa@comcast.net "Flying"
Message 10
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--> Europa-List message posted by: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com
Hi Chris,
Initially, I had the same trouble getting the peel ply off the ailerons,
anti-servo tabs and flap closeouts. (mine were factory skinned). What I discovered
works best was to find the end edge of the ply. Get it started peeling with
an exacto knife or a #11 scalpel blade, a quarter inch will do. Then with a
pair of straight hemostats, clamp onto the end of the ply and roll the ply onto
the hemostats as you peel it up. You'll find all but a thread or two will come
off like opening a sardine can. Any remaining threads can easily be removed
with the exacto knife.
Hope it helps!
Regards,
John Lawton
Dunlap, TN
A-245 (Starbord skin bonded on today)
Message 11
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" <hurstkr@growzone.com.au>
> Europa listers anyone have problems removing peel ply
Chris,
Wherever possible, I try to make sure the peel ply is bigger than the area
to be covered in order not to have to wet out right to the edge of the peel
ply.
I have also found that if the peel ply is cut on the bias (like BID), it
also helps a lot by not leaving long strands in the layup. Cutting it on
the bias also seems to make the peel ply conform better to shapes and sort
of adds a little elasticity to it as well. It is the only way I cut it now,
discovering this after I have done all major layups of course.
Another thing I also have found that seems to work quite well is ........
when overlapping pieces of peel ply, try to do so in an ordered fashion. ie
left over right, left over right etc. not eg, left over right and then
right over left. By doing this, when the time comes to remove the ply,
start with the underside layer which in turn lifts the one on top and so
forth. I find this method seems to leave less behind also.
Hope this makes sense. Don't give up on it mate, I don't think there would
be a builder who hasn't been frustrated at some time about a few strands of
peel ply left behind. IMHO, a strand here or there while not desirable, is
not the end of the world anyway.
Regards
Kingsley Hurst
Mono Classic 281 in Oz
Message 12
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| Subject: | 912 - Classic - Exhaust Pipe Fracture Survey |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Baker, Dino (FMC)" <Dino.Baker@fmc.sa.gov.au>
I have also had cracked pipes on my 912 Classic. Both rear outlet pipes
found cracked at 470hrs. Both cracks were approx 3inches long on top, under
the carbs, along the bend plane. R/hand side crack had commenced to go
radial.
From 0hrs the silencer was supported with a strap around the rear and then
via a piece of conveyor belt, about 1-1/2 inches wide, around the large
cross tube of the engine mount, to absorb vibration. To no avail of course!
No insulation has ever been used. I operate from both smooth a rough strips,
but do not think this is the cause. It's just cyclic vibration and age
hardening of the older mild steel pipes. I have changed all four pipes from
the heads with stainless types. Hoping to get a longer run.
Regards,
John Baker, VH-BKR
Message 13
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" <hurstkr@growzone.com.au>
> Talking about latches....
> Yesterday, with the gear down and latched..................I had a violent
drop
> ..............and the gear unlatched and with turbulent air the flaps
pushed the
> gear up.
Hedley,
Your posting and others I have heard of with the gear unlatching prompts me
to raise a problem I had with the gear plus a few other points.
When I installed my undercarriage mechanism, I found it quite difficult to
insert the pins which join the retraction arms to the damper assy. On
investigation, I discovered that although both retraction arms were firmly
against the over centre stops, when viewed from the side, both arms were not
parallel to each other. In other words, the holes in the ends of each
retraction arm were not exactly aligned with each other. The misalignment
was in the order of 2 mm and it was obvious that the over centre stops were
not the same length. On checking the same items on another builders frame,
I found that his were also in error so I suspect there is more than two
undercarriages around the world with this problem.
The fix - I shortened the longer stop and repinned the arms after turning
the main retraction shaft 90 degrees. The improvement both in ease of pin
insertion and U/C retraction was very noticeable. The U/C is now as smooth
as silk to extend and retract and I can insert the pins with my fingers at
any point of the retraction cycle.
Now to my first point. If others have this same problem unbeknown to them,
there is a good chance at some time an uncommanded retraction may occur
because it is quite conceivable that one retraction arm might get slightly
over centre the wrong way and fight the other one trying to do the right
thing by us all. Remember we are talking about very little movement here.
When the arms are over centre, they are only about 2mm over if my memory
serves me correctly and if my measurements were accurate.
The other points I would like to make in general about the retraction
mechanism are:-
1 The retraction lever should be such that it wants to naturally spring
into the detent at the down end of its travel. This means that when the U/C
is locked down, even if the locking latch is raised, the lever should not
want to exit the detent without positive force being applied by the pilot
albeit it only a relatively small force.
2 With the U/C extended and the lever locked in the down detent, the
retraction lever should have no perceivable movement for and aft. It is
necessary to check this with no weight on the main wheel otherwise the
forces applied by the over centre locking will give a false impression of no
play when in fact there could be.
3 Of course, it goes without saying that there should be no relative
movement between the retraction lever and the retraction arms.
If the over centre geometry of the retraction arms is correct, and the above
three points are complied with, IMHO, uncommanded retractions should be non
existent. Others more intelligent than I may be able to shoot me down here
so I will sit back and wait for the flack.
For the benefit of any builders who may never have had any experience with
over centre devices, I would like to make one final comment.
The purpose of the U/C lever locking in the down detent is to hold the
retraction arms fully against the over centre stops AT ALL TIMES. It is not
meant to take any loads as a result of the wheel trying to retract as the
wheel is trying to do when the aircraft is sitting on the ground. In the
down position, the only time the lever should feel any load is when the
aircraft bounces for any reason because the downward travelling wheel tends
to want to pull the over centre mechanism straight and in doing so wants to
make the lever move in the retraction direction. Hence the need for point 2
above.
AND notwithstanding what I have just said, I WILL BE installing a little
grasshopper spring on the latching pawl of the U/C lever "Just In Case".
Apologies to those I may have bored or if I am only stating the obvious.
Regards
Kingsley Hurst
Mono Classic 281 in Oz
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Gear Unlatching |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Gerry Holland <gnholland@onetel.com>
Kingsley Hi!
You're never boring! A good explanation.
As for the obvious.... That's the hardest commodity to work with, alongside
the power of hindsight!
Kind Regards
Gerry
Gerry Holland
Europa 384
G-FIZY
+44 7808 402404
gnholland@onetel.com
Do not archive
Message 15
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--> Europa-List message posted by: Gerry Holland <gnholland@onetel.com>
Chris Hi!
> Europa listers anyone have problems removing peel ply from hinge flanges etc?
> threads catching under layup edges. Is there a way to cut peel ply so the
> edges dont fall apart? I am begining to really hate the stuff and think I
> would be better of not using it for the flanges at all! anybody tried it that
> way? thanks for your thoughts.
I suffered in the same way as you but only once! until I ordered rolls of
peel ply from ACS and later my local Composite Boat Builder. It is normally
white with a slightly coarser weave/texture than the 'silky' green stuff. I
have rolls of 1", 2" and 4" and I believe you can get 6".
It's much easier to manage when covering up lay ups and can applied
carefully to cover most complex shapes if applied at suitable angle. My
experience is that the 2" and 4" are the most commonly I have used.
It is white with red visibility stripes and the 4" roll is about 100+ yards
long.
Another advantage is ease of effort and a clean 'tear off' action when
appropriate as the 4" is applied with abutment or overlap strips on large
areas.
It's worth getting!
Regards
Gerry
Gerry Holland
Europa 384
G-FIZY
+44 7808 402404
gnholland@onetel.com
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