Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:36 AM - Door Support (Kingsley Hurst)
2. 02:18 AM - Re: Door Support (R.C.Harrison)
3. 02:33 AM - (owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com)
4. 03:31 AM - (owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com)
5. 05:19 AM - Re: Door Support (Kingsley Hurst)
6. 09:41 AM - Re: Door Support (R.C.Harrison)
7. 09:42 AM - Re: PFA roadshow 6-7 Gloucester Staverton (R.C.Harrison)
8. 11:34 AM - Re: PFA roadshow 6-7 Gloucester Staverton (Michael Parkin)
9. 11:49 AM - Re: Door Support (Ami McFadyean)
10. 12:37 PM - Re: Andrew Sarangan's Archive (John Cliff)
11. 12:57 PM - Re: Europa XS 'conventional' landing gear (Ami McFadyean)
12. 02:29 PM - Re: Door Support (JR \(Bob\) Gowing)
13. 03:07 PM - Re: Door Support (Peter Zutrauen)
14. 03:44 PM - Re: Door Support (Kingsley Hurst)
15. 11:21 PM - Antw: Door Support (Alfred Buess)
Message 1
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" <hurstkr@growzone.com.au>
Hello All,
This posting is rather belated but nevertheless I think it is worth doing.
Some time ago, there was considerable discussion regarding the problem of
deformation of the doors and the method of attachment of the gas struts.
I now wish to announce to the world that I have adopted the principle and
now sing the praises of Ted Gladstone's brilliant idea which completely
eliminates all strain on the door as a result of the forces applied by the
gas strut.
Before carrying out this mod, I must admit to having first tried the
"alternative" method which I think most builders are now adopting. When I
did so however, I still found that the door deformed slightly where the
strut attached at its new location and also that the gap at the top of the
door opened up an extra 1.5mm. Further, on closing the door, there was a
large amount of distortion requiring it to be positively held in alignment
before it could be fully closed. Admittedly, there was no perspex in the
door to provide extra bracing but it was my desire that the perspex should
not have to contribute in this manner. I therefore went to the trouble of
laying up one ply of carbon fibre on the inner surface from the rear hinge
to 2/3 of the way down the back of the door. This strengthened the door
considerably but I was still not happy about the poor rear hinge having to
withstand the consistent 25 to 27 kg load. If you don't feel sorry for the
hinge, see how long you can hold the gas strut fully closed. I hadn't got
to replacing the new attachment point when I learned of Ted's idea and I
immediately recognised it as being what I consider the only true answer to
the problem found to date.
Because I am not constrained by limitations imposed by the PFA like Ted is,
I was able to make mine slightly different from Ted's in as much as I cut
the bottom out of the gas strut channel in order that I could make it a
little deeper which in turn allowed a little longer strut and slightly
differing geometry which I am pleased to be able to say has been most
rewarding. Anybody who is interested in this approach and who hasn't yet
installed the roll over bracing at the back between the doors would be well
advised to do the modified layup of the channels and the reinforcement
section all in one go because it provides a good opportunity to include a
couple of layers of uni from just below the lower end of the channel right
across to the same point on the opposite side.
The end result of all this is that I now have doors (still without perspex)
that close without the slightest sign of misalignment, that have absolutely
no residual strain on them when fully closed and have a much improved hold
open force which supports 4 x 1 kg bags of sand placed on the larger area of
the door when fully open. The only disappointment was that the carbon fibre
layups have been made completely redundant but I am certainly not going to
remove them now.
CAVEAT
This mod does require a reasonable amount of work and indeed patience and I
would suggest it is not for the feint hearted. If you like a bit of a
challenge then the reward is there for the taking.
For me, it is one of those things that when completed, makes me feel good
every time I operate it as opposed to being something that "I wish I had
done"
If there is sufficient interest, I would be prepared to draw up the
dimensions I finally arrived at. I have photos and a video of the operation
but unfortunately I don't know how to make the video condensed enough to
publish it on the web. If I am requested to supply details I wish to point
out that I have to do so with full acknowledgement to Ted Gladstone for the
advice and assistance provided by him to me several months ago for which I
am extremely grateful. Thanks Ted. Hope you haven't taken out a patent!!
Regards
Kingsley Hurst
Mono Classic 281 in Oz
Message 2
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@ukonline.co.uk>
Hi! Kingsley.
I'll confirm that all you say about Ted's mod. is true. Having seen it at
the East Fortune Fly In a couple of weeks ago I can say that it is a most
simplistic way of addressing the problem.
From my point of view I'm wondering if it were to be fitted retrospectively
would the doors eventually return to their original undeformed shape ? Any
input on this question would convince me to action it this next winter.
Did Ted send you details or is he leaving it to you to circulate because
although I spoke to him I was rushing to leave and am now wishing I had
asked him to forward me a copy.
Incidentally he has also developed an excellent Mono Wheel and Flap
operating system which is very inovative....I believe he is awaiting PFA
approval.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Kingsley
Hurst
Subject: Europa-List: Door Support
-
Message 3
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--> Europa-List message posted by:
=0D=0ADe:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com=0D=0A=0D=0APara:europa-list@matronics.com=0D=0A=0D=0AC=F3pia:=0D=0A=0D=0AData:Thu,
04 Sep 2003 12:38:05 +0100=0D=0A=0D=0AAssunto:Europa-List:
Re: Glide Angles=0D=0A=0D=0A =0D=0A=0D=0A> -->
Europa-List message posted by: "david joyce" =0D=0A> =0D=0A> Alex, Increased
weight does not alter best glide angle nor glide range, it=0D=0A> just lets
you achieve your optimum glide angle at higher speeds, or hit the=0D=0A> ground
sooner if you like to look at it that way! David Joyce=0D=0A> =0D=0A=0D=0AYes,
thanks Dave- i have eaten humble pie and washed it down with miff juice!=0D=0AMiffed
because I was taught the wrong way around on a CPL course and I wonder
how many more have gotten it the wrong way- I remember it being a point of
much discussion and now that I looked up the question on the net, several places
actually says the wrong thing!! The majority of places gives the right information
with very good explanations.=0D=0A=0D=0AAlex
Message 4
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--> Europa-List message posted by:
De:Alex Kaarsberg
Para:europa-list@matronics.com
Cpia:
Data:Sun, 07 Sep 2003 06:33:00 -0300
Assunto:Forum archive
Can anybody tell me why it is not possible to search for old messages on asarangans'
site?
Is it not running any more?
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Door Support |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" <hurstkr@growzone.com.au>
> I'll confirm that all you say about Ted's mod. is true. Having seen it at
> the East Fortune Fly In a couple of weeks ago I can say that it is a most
> simplistic way of addressing the problem.
> From my point of view I'm wondering if it were to be fitted
retrospectively
> would the doors eventually return to their original undeformed shape ?
Bob,
I am far from being an authority in this field but I can see no reason why
you could not get the doors back to their original shape.
I would try placing heavy shot bags (something that absorbs heat) on the
doors while the aircraft is parked in the sun and maybe cover the top corner
of the doors with some black pvc sheeting too. It may take some time but I
think it would gradually work provided the mod was done first so that there
would be nothing trying to still push the corners up. If you don't have
enough sun over there, bring it over here because I can assure you we have
plenty. Last week I did a trip in a C172 with one of my boys who is doing
his commercial training....... we covered just under 1400 nm and didn't see
one cloud from horizon to horizon all the way.
Back to the subject, I think I remember reading on the Forum that the
"alternative" method has the effect of returning things to normal too so it
might be worthwhile checking that out too.
Hope you get on top of the problem Bob, the deformity sure does detract from
the appeal of what is otherwise a lovely aircraft.
BTW, I am familiar also with Ted and Justin's undercarriage geometry but
unfortunately, I found out about it too late and the equipment to do such is
not available where I live anyway so I have to pass on that one.
Regards
Kingsley
Message 6
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@ukonline.co.uk>
Hi! Kingsley.
Yes, I was concerned about the doors returning to their original shape since
that would leave about 1/18" filler sitting proud on the top of the
fuselage. Nevertheless the mod. is a worthy consideration.
On your weather item..... our summer this time round has left your
boastfullness a little pale!
But as to recent years you've answered where our Summers had gone!
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
PS Don't archive.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Kingsley
Hurst
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Door Support
-
Message 7
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| Subject: | PFA roadshow 6-7 Gloucester Staverton |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@ukonline.co.uk>
Hi! Rowland/David B.
Thanks for the info. on Gloucester/Staverton. It's nice to have it indicated
that I'm really a "youngster" after all !!!! Alas I fear it is more likely
because Gloucester isn't a place I've often frequented other than when my
Son was involved on the Second Severn Crossing. Because I was aware of the
"Ha'penny Green" item!
I guess now I stayed at home you will tell me that the weather was perfect
in spite of the crap forcast I collected at 0600 hours this morning?
regards
Bob H G-PTAG
Don't archive.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: PFA roadshow 6-7 Gloucester Staverton |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Michael Parkin" <Mikenjulie.Parkin@btopenworld.com>
Bob,
You were right, the weather was perfect!!! Where were you - noticeable by
your absence.
regards,
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@ukonline.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Europa-List: PFA roadshow 6-7 Gloucester Staverton
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison"
<ptag.dev@ukonline.co.uk>
>
> Hi! Rowland/David B.
> Thanks for the info. on Gloucester/Staverton. It's nice to have it
indicated
> that I'm really a "youngster" after all !!!! Alas I fear it is more likely
> because Gloucester isn't a place I've often frequented other than when my
> Son was involved on the Second Severn Crossing. Because I was aware of
the
> "Ha'penny Green" item!
> I guess now I stayed at home you will tell me that the weather was perfect
> in spite of the crap forcast I collected at 0600 hours this morning?
> regards
> Bob H G-PTAG
>
> Don't archive.
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Door Support |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Ami McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
I've found that the doors generally do have a memory for their original
shape, once the distorting load is permently removed. It takes a while
(weeks) and is helped by hot weather.
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@ukonline.co.uk>
> From my point of view I'm wondering if
......................................the doors eventually return to their
original undeformed shape ?
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Andrew Sarangan's Archive |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "John Cliff" <mx@crixbinfield.freeserve.co.uk>
> Can anybody tell me why it is not possible to search for old messages on
asarangans' site?
> Is it not running any more?
The website is running but the search engine, as you say, won't find anything.
Andrew, are you reading ?
John Cliff
#0259
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Europa XS 'conventional' landing gear |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Ami McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
The photos shown on the CCE web page are of Stephan Rouvenet's Europa that
had his own iteration of the TD gear. The tailwhel spring was taken from a
KIS, which is deeper than the standard Europa
As to your comments, the Swiss TD conversion will place the nose in a higher
position (unless hte leg is cut-down during installation) so that with the
sandard tailwheel there is LESS need of a wheeler landing. The axle position
of hte gear is at the same fuselage station as the Monowheel, which is
already at a position well forward of hte norm.
There are a number of these conversions flying in hte UK.
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: <n3eu@comcast.net>
>
> Skipping commentary on their home page(!), the above web story seems to
end
> about 1/2000, before flight testing. Though someone more qualified re
> taildraggers than I should comment, seems to me not much nose-up attitude,
> making wheel landings the norm. How this then affects behavior on rough
> surfaces would be one question. Another consideration thus may be engine
> choice, where the heavier the installation the more tendency to nose over,
as
> the gear location seems as minimally fwd as desirable, esp with the effect
> full flaps on the Europa.
>
> In general though, the tunnel not required for the monowheel is available
for
> installation of systems, making them far more accessible for inspection
and
> maintenance.
>
> Regards,
> Fred F.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Door Support |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "JR \(Bob\) Gowing" <gowingjr@acr.net.au>
Kingsley
Put me on the list of interested persons please.
J R
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kingsley Hurst" <hurstkr@growzone.com.au>
Subject: Europa-List: Door Support
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst"
<hurstkr@growzone.com.au>
>
> Hello All,
>
> This posting is rather belated but nevertheless I think it is worth doing.
> Some time ago, there was considerable discussion regarding the problem of
> deformation of the doors and the method of attachment of the gas struts.
>
> I now wish to announce to the world that I have adopted the principle and
> now sing the praises of Ted Gladstone's brilliant idea which completely
> eliminates all strain on the door as a result of the forces applied by the
> gas strut.
>
> Before carrying out this mod, I must admit to having first tried the
> "alternative" method which I think most builders are now adopting. When I
> did so however, I still found that the door deformed slightly where the
> strut attached at its new location and also that the gap at the top of the
> door opened up an extra 1.5mm. Further, on closing the door, there was a
> large amount of distortion requiring it to be positively held in alignment
> before it could be fully closed. Admittedly, there was no perspex in the
> door to provide extra bracing but it was my desire that the perspex should
> not have to contribute in this manner. I therefore went to the trouble of
> laying up one ply of carbon fibre on the inner surface from the rear hinge
> to 2/3 of the way down the back of the door. This strengthened the door
> considerably but I was still not happy about the poor rear hinge having to
> withstand the consistent 25 to 27 kg load. If you don't feel sorry for
the
> hinge, see how long you can hold the gas strut fully closed. I hadn't got
> to replacing the new attachment point when I learned of Ted's idea and I
> immediately recognised it as being what I consider the only true answer to
> the problem found to date.
>
> Because I am not constrained by limitations imposed by the PFA like Ted
is,
> I was able to make mine slightly different from Ted's in as much as I cut
> the bottom out of the gas strut channel in order that I could make it a
> little deeper which in turn allowed a little longer strut and slightly
> differing geometry which I am pleased to be able to say has been most
> rewarding. Anybody who is interested in this approach and who hasn't yet
> installed the roll over bracing at the back between the doors would be
well
> advised to do the modified layup of the channels and the reinforcement
> section all in one go because it provides a good opportunity to include a
> couple of layers of uni from just below the lower end of the channel right
> across to the same point on the opposite side.
>
> The end result of all this is that I now have doors (still without
perspex)
> that close without the slightest sign of misalignment, that have
absolutely
> no residual strain on them when fully closed and have a much improved hold
> open force which supports 4 x 1 kg bags of sand placed on the larger area
of
> the door when fully open. The only disappointment was that the carbon
fibre
> layups have been made completely redundant but I am certainly not going to
> remove them now.
>
> CAVEAT
>
> This mod does require a reasonable amount of work and indeed patience and
I
> would suggest it is not for the feint hearted. If you like a bit of a
> challenge then the reward is there for the taking.
>
> For me, it is one of those things that when completed, makes me feel good
> every time I operate it as opposed to being something that "I wish I had
> done"
>
> If there is sufficient interest, I would be prepared to draw up the
> dimensions I finally arrived at. I have photos and a video of the
operation
> but unfortunately I don't know how to make the video condensed enough to
> publish it on the web. If I am requested to supply details I wish to
point
> out that I have to do so with full acknowledgement to Ted Gladstone for
the
> advice and assistance provided by him to me several months ago for which I
> am extremely grateful. Thanks Ted. Hope you haven't taken out a patent!!
>
> Regards
> Kingsley Hurst
> Mono Classic 281 in Oz
>
>
Message 13
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Zutrauen" <peterz@zutrasoft.com>
Hi Kingsley,
Yip, yet another thanks from me.... I would be very interested in
any/all info you could provide about your mod. I really liked Ted's
solution, except for the limited open pressure when fully opened. You
seem to have conquered that geometry issue.
Cheers & Thanks,
Peter Zutrauen
Europa Builder A239 dual-wing
Ph: 613-831-0348
Cell: 613-851-1640
Fax: 613-831-9955
-----Original Message-----
From: Kingsley Hurst [mailto:hurstkr@growzone.com.au]
Subject: Europa-List: Door Support
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst"
<hurstkr@growzone.com.au>
Hello All,
This posting is rather belated but nevertheless I think it is worth
doing.
Some time ago, there was considerable discussion regarding the problem
of
deformation of the doors and the method of attachment of the gas struts.
I now wish to announce to the world that I have adopted the principle
and
now sing the praises of Ted Gladstone's brilliant idea which completely
eliminates all strain on the door as a result of the forces applied by
the
gas strut.
Before carrying out this mod, I must admit to having first tried the
"alternative" method which I think most builders are now adopting. When
I
did so however, I still found that the door deformed slightly where the
strut attached at its new location and also that the gap at the top of
the
door opened up an extra 1.5mm. Further, on closing the door, there was
a
large amount of distortion requiring it to be positively held in
alignment
before it could be fully closed. Admittedly, there was no perspex in
the
door to provide extra bracing but it was my desire that the perspex
should
not have to contribute in this manner. I therefore went to the trouble
of
laying up one ply of carbon fibre on the inner surface from the rear
hinge
to 2/3 of the way down the back of the door. This strengthened the door
considerably but I was still not happy about the poor rear hinge having
to
withstand the consistent 25 to 27 kg load. If you don't feel sorry for
the
hinge, see how long you can hold the gas strut fully closed. I hadn't
got
to replacing the new attachment point when I learned of Ted's idea and I
immediately recognised it as being what I consider the only true answer
to
the problem found to date.
Because I am not constrained by limitations imposed by the PFA like Ted
is,
I was able to make mine slightly different from Ted's in as much as I
cut
the bottom out of the gas strut channel in order that I could make it a
little deeper which in turn allowed a little longer strut and slightly
differing geometry which I am pleased to be able to say has been most
rewarding. Anybody who is interested in this approach and who hasn't
yet
installed the roll over bracing at the back between the doors would be
well
advised to do the modified layup of the channels and the reinforcement
section all in one go because it provides a good opportunity to include
a
couple of layers of uni from just below the lower end of the channel
right
across to the same point on the opposite side.
The end result of all this is that I now have doors (still without
perspex)
that close without the slightest sign of misalignment, that have
absolutely
no residual strain on them when fully closed and have a much improved
hold
open force which supports 4 x 1 kg bags of sand placed on the larger
area of
the door when fully open. The only disappointment was that the carbon
fibre
layups have been made completely redundant but I am certainly not going
to
remove them now.
CAVEAT
This mod does require a reasonable amount of work and indeed patience
and I
would suggest it is not for the feint hearted. If you like a bit of a
challenge then the reward is there for the taking.
For me, it is one of those things that when completed, makes me feel
good
every time I operate it as opposed to being something that "I wish I had
done"
If there is sufficient interest, I would be prepared to draw up the
dimensions I finally arrived at. I have photos and a video of the
operation
but unfortunately I don't know how to make the video condensed enough to
publish it on the web. If I am requested to supply details I wish to
point
out that I have to do so with full acknowledgement to Ted Gladstone for
the
advice and assistance provided by him to me several months ago for which
I
am extremely grateful. Thanks Ted. Hope you haven't taken out a
patent!!
Regards
Kingsley Hurst
Mono Classic 281 in Oz
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Door Support |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" <hurstkr@growzone.com.au>
Do not archive
> Yes, I was concerned about the doors returning to their original shape
since
> that would leave about 1/18" filler sitting proud on the top of the
> fuselage.
What sort of measuring system are you using here Bob ?? Space age imperial
?? 1/18" sounds like about 1/2 of 2/3 of 5/8 of F%$# ALL to me. Just
joking mate.
Sorry, I misunderstood you, I thought you WANTED the deformation to
disappear!
BTW, I wasn't "boasting" about the sun, we would much prefer some rain
believe me.
Regards
Kingsley
Message 15
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Alfred Buess" <Alfred.Buess@shl.bfh.ch>
Hi Kingsley
As I am not happy at all with the standard door support system, I am very interested
in Ted's and your solution. Any pictures, sketches and measures are welcome!
Thank you,
Alfred Buess, Switzerland
# 097 Monowheel Classic wings XS fuselage
>>> hurstkr@growzone.com.au 09/07 10:35 >>>
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" <hurstkr@growzone.com.au>
Hello All,
This posting is rather belated but nevertheless I think it is worth doing.
Some time ago, there was considerable discussion regarding the problem of
deformation of the doors and the method of attachment of the gas struts.
I now wish to announce to the world that I have adopted the principle and
now sing the praises of Ted Gladstone's brilliant idea which completely
eliminates all strain on the door as a result of the forces applied by the
gas strut.
Before carrying out this mod, I must admit to having first tried the
"alternative" method which I think most builders are now adopting. When I
did so however, I still found that the door deformed slightly where the
strut attached at its new location and also that the gap at the top of the
door opened up an extra 1.5mm. Further, on closing the door, there was a
large amount of distortion requiring it to be positively held in alignment
before it could be fully closed. Admittedly, there was no perspex in the
door to provide extra bracing but it was my desire that the perspex should
not have to contribute in this manner. I therefore went to the trouble of
laying up one ply of carbon fibre on the inner surface from the rear hinge
to 2/3 of the way down the back of the door. This strengthened the door
considerably but I was still not happy about the poor rear hinge having to
withstand the consistent 25 to 27 kg load. If you don't feel sorry for the
hinge, see how long you can hold the gas strut fully closed. I hadn't got
to replacing the new attachment point when I learned of Ted's idea and I
immediately recognised it as being what I consider the only true answer to
the problem found to date.
Because I am not constrained by limitations imposed by the PFA like Ted is,
I was able to make mine slightly different from Ted's in as much as I cut
the bottom out of the gas strut channel in order that I could make it a
little deeper which in turn allowed a little longer strut and slightly
differing geometry which I am pleased to be able to say has been most
rewarding. Anybody who is interested in this approach and who hasn't yet
installed the roll over bracing at the back between the doors would be well
advised to do the modified layup of the channels and the reinforcement
section all in one go because it provides a good opportunity to include a
couple of layers of uni from just below the lower end of the channel right
across to the same point on the opposite side.
The end result of all this is that I now have doors (still without perspex)
that close without the slightest sign of misalignment, that have absolutely
no residual strain on them when fully closed and have a much improved hold
open force which supports 4 x 1 kg bags of sand placed on the larger area of
the door when fully open. The only disappointment was that the carbon fibre
layups have been made completely redundant but I am certainly not going to
remove them now.
CAVEAT
This mod does require a reasonable amount of work and indeed patience and I
would suggest it is not for the feint hearted. If you like a bit of a
challenge then the reward is there for the taking.
For me, it is one of those things that when completed, makes me feel good
every time I operate it as opposed to being something that "I wish I had
done"
If there is sufficient interest, I would be prepared to draw up the
dimensions I finally arrived at. I have photos and a video of the operation
but unfortunately I don't know how to make the video condensed enough to
publish it on the web. If I am requested to supply details I wish to point
out that I have to do so with full acknowledgement to Ted Gladstone for the
advice and assistance provided by him to me several months ago for which I
am extremely grateful. Thanks Ted. Hope you haven't taken out a patent!!
Regards
Kingsley Hurst
Mono Classic 281 in Oz
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