---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 11/17/03: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:29 AM - Re: Progress Report with Signature (DuaneFamly@aol.com) 2. 12:30 AM - Re: MID WEEK FLY-IN (R.C.Harrison) 3. 12:45 AM - Pictures of Europa Port Socket and Flap Rigging aids. (R.C.Harrison) 4. 12:50 AM - Re: Re: Stupid Questions (DuaneFamly@aol.com) 5. 05:53 AM - Re: Re: Stupid Questions (Kevin Klinefelter) 6. 07:17 AM - Re: Progress Report with Signature (Fergus Kyle) 7. 09:56 AM - Stupid question (Erich Trombley) 8. 11:01 AM - Re: UK Weekly Fly In /Voucher Utilisation! (bryan allsop) 9. 06:14 PM - Engine instrumentation confusion. (Jeff Roberts) 10. 06:34 PM - Re: Progress Report with Signature (Tony Renshaw) 11. 06:39 PM - Fuselage Twist Good or Bad (Tony Renshaw) 12. 08:13 PM - [ Bob Harrison ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:29:46 AM PST US From: DuaneFamly@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Progress Report with Signature --> Europa-List message posted by: DuaneFamly@aol.com Tony, I believe this would be of much help for those of us still building....as long as those that are already flying don't rub it in too much. Mike Duane A207 Redding, California XS Conventional Gear Cockpit module installed, tailplane torque tube in place, awaiting replacement bolts from the UK in order to assemble my pitch torque tube and bushings from Lakeland for some misplaced ones for my tailplane trim T arm. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:30:43 AM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: Re: Europa-List: MID WEEK FLY-IN --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" Hi! Byan./Group (but mostly Bryan!) One of the main points of the Mid -week Fly In Group is that we all go to the same centre at the same time/day? The Fly In this week will be SANDTOFT and WICKENBY........ not Sturgate. You really must get to grips with these SENIOR MOMENTS 'cos when they come FULL CIRCLE you are done flying at least ! Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG PS. I have a few photos of the first Weekday Fly In if anyone on the original group care to turn up at SANDTOFT. ----- Original Message ----- From: "bryan allsop" Subject: Europa-List: MID WEEK FLY-IN > --> Europa-List message posted by: "bryan allsop" > > With the baton past on to Bob Harrison for the next fly-in to Sturgate, we can look forward a bit more Lunch-time action in the near future. > > However, we must await for that damnable British weather to present us with a weather slot, and envy those who live in better climates. > > I'll be in Florida for a few weeks soon. Do you have Lunch-time fly-ins there I can get an invite to? > > Bryan Allsop (5 Centigrade, windy, and threatening to rain). > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:45:00 AM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: Europa-List: Pictures of Europa Port Socket and Flap Rigging aids. --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" Hi! To those who asked for pictures. Pleased to advise that the pictures of the Port Spar Tip Socket Engage Aids and the Flap Root Self Engage Single Person Engage Aids have been forwarded to Matt Drale for posting on the Matronics Photo Share System and John Cliff for posting on to the :- http://www.crix.org.uk Photo share system. Regards and thanks in anticipation to Matt and John. Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI/Jabiru 3300 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:50:26 AM PST US From: DuaneFamly@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: Stupid Questions --> Europa-List message posted by: DuaneFamly@aol.com Dan, I have just finished this procedure. Once I found the start point for measuring the FS points, I marked the bottom of the fuselage every fifty inches with a black marker for future references and sanity checks. On the dowel measurements to the firewall, they should be very close as per the manual. When you measure the height of each side of the dowel from the floor, many people have found a slight twist in the rear of the lower fuselage. I believe the consensus is to not try to take this into consideration as it will straighten itself out when the top goes on. Where the small pilot hole is. look closely and you should see the remnants of a + that the hole is centered in. When I did mine I just made sure that the pilot hole was even with the horizontal line of that + on both sides. If you are going to use a 2" hole saw, make the pilot hole the same size as the guide drill on the hole saw. Also make sure that when you Redux the bushes in place, that no Redux gets on the inside vertical surface of the bushing because this is where the plastic spacer will rub up against when installed. Read ahead, dry fit through the entire procedure, and you will do fine. Mike Duane A207 Redding, California XS Conventional Gear Cockpit module installed, tailplane torque tube in place, awaiting replacement bolts from the UK in order to assemble my pitch torque tube and bushings from Lakeland for some misplaced ones for my tailplane trim T arm. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:53:02 AM PST US From: "Kevin Klinefelter" Subject: RE: Europa-List: RE: Stupid Questions --> Europa-List message posted by: "Kevin Klinefelter" Hi Dan, As I recall there are marks on the center of the TP holes to be cut. I drilled the center with a 1/4 " drill to accept a long length of all-thread. You can measure from the cowl joggle to the all-thread to see if you are off to a good start for the hole saw. The all-thread idea came from Kim Prout when I attended a workshop. It was put in place before the rear bulkhead and helped that operation go smoothly. The measurement you refered to on 18-2 is important. I cut a 3/4 x 3" piece of wood to fit inside and measured with calipers on the outside of the molding just like the drawing shows. I bondoed that wood spacer in and left it there till after the top was bonded on. I think its important to get the tube level with the spar pins. And also square to the fuse center (sweep). Level it up like Steve says. Good to hear you are going well. Ralph is making great progress up in Reno. I have the airframe complete minus the windshield and wing root fairings. Working forward of the firewall lately. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Steve Hagar Subject: RE: Europa-List: RE: Stupid Questions --> Europa-List message posted by: "Steve Hagar" Dan: It has been a long time since I have done that. Alot sounds foreign, but as I can remember there were some prescribed circles where the torque tube holes are to be cut. What I did to ensure that they were in the right position is as follows: I did the best I possibly could to determine the center of the scribed holes. I then drilled a small hole in the center of each around a 1/4 or 3/8. I then took a dowel or piece of round bar stock around the same length of the torque tube and fit it snugly in the hole and measured from each tip of it to a fixed position on the left and right side of the firewall. I then measured from each tip to the floor (assuming you have meticulously leveled the plane, when I leveled the plane I marked the position on the floor of the garage so it would always be in the same spot. Part of what I found out when I leveled the plane was that my garage floor was not level.) Make sure your dowel or rod is straight. If your measurements make you feel good you can cut your holes. If they don't start looking around to take other measurements or look for some fuselage twist. After cutting the big holes there was a small amount of annular slop around the brass bushings. This was a good thing however. I made some small shims out of cardboard. One for each side. I positioned each shim at a point on the outside of the brass bushing in the hole that was cut out against the inside face of the cutout hole. You now basically have a "bump" on the outside of the bushing inside the hole. This causes the bushing to act like a cam now. The shim is attached to the bushing with double sided carpet tape so when you turn the bushing the shim travels around for the ride. Now when you have your torque tube in and are getting ready to bond it you have a way to micro adjust the position of the left and right tips of the torque tube by rotating the bushings like cams for forward and aft and up and down. Once your measurements are to your likeing leave the cardboard in place (they are small pieces) and pump up the annular area up with Redux and make some good fillets over the whole mess being careful not to get any on the torque tube. Its probably a good idea to put some wax or a light coat of grease on it to act as a release agent just in case. I found this exercise to be very tedius, taking the better part of the weekend. But I am happy with the positioning of the tube. Steve Hagar A143 Mesa, Az > [Original Message] > From: Dan Bish > To: > Date: 11/16/03 9:16:09 PM > Subject: Europa-List: RE: Stupid Questions > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Dan Bish" > > Well, as this thread seems to fit my questions here goes: > > First, just starting a partially completed kit and working on the tailplane torque-tube. In the manual it says "to verify that the pilot holes previously drilled in the tailplane fairings are correctly positioned, then drill through with a 2" diameter hole saw." (Chap. 18- Page 3). > > Well, since it says that the measurement should be FS169.5 I went looking for what that meant. Seems that measurement is from the front face of the cowl (1-12). Now I'm sure I'm not the only one without the cowl on at this stage of building so how do I go about verifying this measurement. Yes, there are markings there and I should probably just trust them. Just looking for where to drill the holes. > > Next, in measuring the dimension of the spot forward of the rear bulkhead, just in front of the t/p fairings, the manual says (18-2) that it should measure 5 3/16" but mine's at 4". Is this something that gets worked out later down the road, say when the fuselage top goes on? Or should I insert a spacer and try to get it to expand? > > Any help you can send my way is greatly appreciated. Glad to be building but just getting started and a bit tentative about it at this stage. Thanks! > > Dan Bish > A144 - N914RB > Tucson, AZ > > --- Steve Hagar --- hagargs@earthlink.net ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:17:41 AM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Progress Report with Signature --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" | Gidday, | The nature of this forum is that you often fragmented e-mail relationships | with other builders, often spasmodic depending upon mutual interests at the | time. With the size of the group it is easy to lose track of the stages | people are at, and the basic equiptment they have installed or are | installing. I for one have finally made a little progress, and am seeking | advice from time to time with people I know who are ahead of me. I'd like | to save those embarrasing moments of forgetting the stage of other builders | by offering one possible solution. At the bottom of our messsages, why | don't we have a brief summary of the current stage etc. In my case it would | read like this: | | Mono Classic | Tail, wings, flaps,ailerons complete. | Cockpit module plumbed and complete ready for installation. | Lower fuse in jig with tailplane torque tube, mass balance, installed. | Intended Engine: 912 S or a turboed single rotor rotary when I am dreaming | Instrumentation: Undecided. Tony, Just roughly, would a number of the last chapter generally completed be enough? (might need two lists for classic and XS) Another ploy might be the stage completed as shown in the building "tree" at the start of the fuselage chapter. Ferg ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:56:18 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Stupid question From: Erich Trombley --> Europa-List message posted by: Erich Trombley Dan and others at this stage, I wrote a modified procedure for this operation as well as the bonding in of the rear bulkhead and the pitch tube containment bulkhead many years ago. I am sure it is the archives. To summarize I would follow what Steve H. has outlined in his message in addition to this and for the other tasks listed above I would ensure that before bonding in the bulkheads or bushings to first Cleco on the top fuselage. My fuselage like many others had a twist in the lower half. As it turns out with the top fasten securely the twist is removed. So word to the wise, put the top on first (temporarily). I know it is a lot of work to prepare for this but it has to be done anyways at some point in time. If you don't and you go to all the trouble to make the torque tube level and without any fore/aft sweep with the top off and you in fact had a twist in the lower fuselage you guessed it. It will no longer be level and will have a little sweep. This is because the twist is like a corkscrew. I found out the hard way as I was directed by the factory to go ahead and leave the twist in. What a mistake. Anyway, hope this helps. Erich Trombley A028 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:01:02 AM PST US From: "bryan allsop" Subject: Re: Europa-List: UK Weekly Fly In /Voucher Utilisation! --> Europa-List message posted by: "bryan allsop" Touch of the "seniors" with the golf course, eh Bob? Regarding the weather, I cant see Thursday looking good this week. Friday clears up a bit though. Regards.. Bryan ----- Original Message ----- From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: Europa-List: UK Weekly Fly In /Voucher Utilisation! > --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" > > Hi! All. > Well I can advise totally Nil responses for this week's two centre Fly in to Sandtoft /Wickenby so it can only get better!? Unless someone is trying to tell me something ? > Thanks to Europa Lurker Tony Pond. the fuel situation at Sandtoft is completely nil (Not as I advised ) However the 100LL facility is as ever OK at Wickenby and I will have 10 gallons of Unleaded Mogas there as a precaution as well. > Also please note that as usual I got my reciprocal wrong about the Golf Course Approach it is actually on the approach to runway 23 at Sandtoft. > I will be expecting calls on Tuesday evening although my advance indications are that the best day just may finish up as Thursday. > Regards > Bob Harrison. > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:14:53 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Engine instrumentation confusion. From: Jeff Roberts --> Europa-List message posted by: Jeff Roberts Just trying to do some panel planning with regard to engine instruments. The rotax manual, as well as Lockwood recommends the inexpensive VDO guages. All the brands to chose from like Mitchell, UMA, Westach, and then there is the miniature versions. The more I look the more I get confused. Is one gauge for CHT & EGT enough on the 912S? Is carb tep needed? The only all in one digital/analog I like is the AIM from IK Technologies. I dont like the hidden pages on the EIS but people seem to like it. Money is an object. I like seeing the guages or something at a glance. All thoughts for whats safe, simple, easy to read, and is less money welcome. Thanks, Jeff Air frame almost ready for primer. A258 Tri ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:34:33 PM PST US From: Tony Renshaw Subject: Re: Europa-List: Progress Report with Signature --> Europa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw Ferg and others, I hope, I believe if you abreviate the signoff too much it will lose effect. It needs to be a quick snapshot of your stage, and you can generally to my knowledge include this information in your e-mail package signature function. Now I am not completely sure whether I have mastered Eudora e-mail signatures, but once I have, well it is a piece of cake to add this detail without having to retype it, or cut and paste from the last forum one. So, if we all get over the initial hump, well it should be a great tool. Its a bit like knowing the a/c rather than the face, if you know what I mean. So whatdoyareckon? Reg Tony Renshaw Mono Classic Taildragger Convertible >| Tail, wings, flaps,ailerons complete. >| Cockpit module plumbed and complete ready for installation. >| Lower fuse in jig with tailplane torque tube, mass balance, installed. >| Intended Engine: 912 S or a turboed single rotor rotary when I am dreaming >| Instrumentation: Undecided. > >| Gidday, >| The nature of this forum is that you often fragmented e-mail relationships >| with other builders, often spasmodic depending upon mutual interests at >the >| time. With the size of the group it is easy to lose track of the stages >| people are at, and the basic equiptment they have installed or are >| installing. I for one have finally made a little progress, and am seeking >| advice from time to time with people I know who are ahead of me. I'd like >| to save those embarrasing moments of forgetting the stage of other >builders >| by offering one possible solution. At the bottom of our messsages, why >| don't we have a brief summary of the current stage etc. In my case it >would >| read like this: >| >| Mono Classic >| Tail, wings, flaps,ailerons complete. >| Cockpit module plumbed and complete ready for installation. >| Lower fuse in jig with tailplane torque tube, mass balance, installed. >| Intended Engine: 912 S or a turboed single rotor rotary when I am dreaming >| Instrumentation: Undecided. > > Tony, > Just roughly, would a number of the last chapter generally >completed be enough? (might need two lists for classic and XS) Another ploy >might be the stage completed as shown in the building "tree" at the start of >the fuselage chapter. >Ferg > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:39:04 PM PST US From: Tony Renshaw Subject: Europa-List: Fuselage Twist Good or Bad --> Europa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw Erich, How bad is the effect you talk about, the twist due to the lower fuse being distorted. I suppose a twist effect in the right direction could be the reason so many first flights have "hands off" ability rather than a roll left due to the asymmetric weight of the pilot. Maybe a twist in the right direction is a goood thing ;-) on the basis that the a/c often is flown one up rather than two. ( a bit of an assumption made there ) Reg Tony Renshaw Sydney Australia Mono Classic Taildragger Convertible Tail, wings, flaps,ailerons complete. Cockpit module plumbed and complete ready for installation. Lower fuse in jig with tailplane torque tube, mass balance, installed. Intended Engine: 912 S or a turboed single rotor rotary when I am dreaming Instrumentation: Undecided. At 05:55 PM 11/17/2003 +0000, you wrote: >--> Europa-List message posted by: Erich Trombley > > >Dan and others at this stage, I wrote a modified procedure for this >operation as well as the bonding in of the rear bulkhead and the pitch tube >containment bulkhead many years ago. I am sure it is the archives. To >summarize I would follow what Steve H. has outlined in his message in >addition to this and for the other tasks listed above I would ensure that >before bonding in the bulkheads or bushings to first Cleco on the top >fuselage. My fuselage like many others had a twist in the lower half. As >it turns out with the top fasten securely the twist is removed. So word to >the wise, put the top on first (temporarily). I know it is a lot of work to >prepare for this but it has to be done anyways at some point in time. If >you don't and you go to all the trouble to make the torque tube level and >without any fore/aft sweep with the top off and you in fact had a twist in >the lower fuselage you guessed it. It will no longer be level and will have >a little sweep. This is because > the twist is like a corkscrew. I found out the hard way as I was directed >by the factory to go ahead and leave the twist in. What a mistake. Anyway, >hope this helps. > >Erich Trombley >A028 > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:13:13 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: [ Bob Harrison ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! From: Email List Photo Shares --> Europa-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares A new Email List Photo Share is available: Poster: Bob Harrison Subject: Europa Wing Self Rigging Assist Mods http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/ptag.dev@ukonline.co.uk.11.17.2003/index.html o Main Photo Share Index http://www.matronics.com/photoshare o Submitting a Photo Share If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the following information along with your email message and files: 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: 2) Your Full Name: 3) Your Email Address: 4) One line Subject description: 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: Email the information above and your files and photos to: pictures@matronics.com