---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 12/19/03: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:16 AM - Re: politics ... and semantics nit picking (Andy Draper) 2. 01:48 AM - Semantics & nit picking - oil on troubled waters (Paul Mansfield) 3. 04:39 AM - Re: Semantics & nit picking - oil on troubled waters (Mike Clifford) 4. 08:02 AM - Re: Semantics & nit picking - oil on troubled waters (Rob Housman) 5. 09:12 AM - Re: Kitty Hawk (TELEDYNMCS@aol.com) 6. 09:19 AM - Re: Trail edge thickness and shape (TELEDYNMCS@aol.com) 7. 09:45 AM - Firewall heat shield. (Graham Singleton) 8. 09:45 AM - Inventions (Graham Singleton) 9. 10:32 AM - Re: Kitty Hawk (Alex Kaarsberg) 10. 10:40 AM - Re: Inventions (Alex Kaarsberg) 11. 12:09 PM - Re: Inventions (Nigel Graham) 12. 01:13 PM - Re: Inventions (TELEDYNMCS@aol.com) 13. 02:30 PM - Re: Kitty Hawk (Karel Vranken) 14. 06:19 PM - Re: Re: Cowl Flap (Ralph Hallett III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:16:01 AM PST US From: "Andy Draper" Subject: Re: Europa-List: politics ... and semantics nit picking --> Europa-List message posted by: "Andy Draper" Well said Augustene. Merry Christmas to you and Jim and have a Happy New Year too. (Perhaps I shouldn't have used capital letters......maybe someone will let me know!) Regards, Andy There are those few obnoxious boors who will always find a way to try discredit their fellows. Wouldn't it be nice to get back to the original intent of the forum - to support fellow builders, fellow flyers, and share information. Regards, Augustene Brown XS Monowheel N398JB Flying since 2000 and going strong ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:48:06 AM PST US From: "Paul Mansfield" Subject: Europa-List: Semantics & nit picking - oil on troubled waters --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul Mansfield" I fear some misunderstanding: There was some talk of Imperial vs Metric measurements, followed by a joke about the way the English spell - I knew it was a joke because it had :) after it!! I replied with a not funny joke about adverbs (they're never funny if you have to explain) and it all went horribly wrong from there... I know that nobody intended any slur - most especially on anybody dyslexic. I have nothing but admiration for Steve's gift of technical insight - I'm trying to build an aeroplane (that spelling thing again!) with mechanical dyslexia -- now that's a real disadvantage! We may be "two nations separated by a common language"; but we are one group joined by a common bond - love of the air. Peace and goodwill .... Paul Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Augustene Brown Subject: Re: Europa-List: politics ... and semantics nit picking --> Europa-List message posted by: Augustene Brown --> ScramIt@aol.com wrote: >--> Europa-List message posted by: ScramIt@aol.com > > > > >>| ...and, oh yes, you spell funny too :) >> >> >> >Steve, > > > There are those few obnoxious boors who will always find a way to try discredit their fellows. Wouldn't it be nice to get back to the original intent of the forum - to support fellow builders, fellow flyers, and share information. Regards, Augustene Brown XS Monowheel N398JB Flying since 2000 and going strong > > > > advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:39:10 AM PST US From: "Mike Clifford" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Semantics & nit picking - oil on troubled waters --> Europa-List message posted by: "Mike Clifford" I have been enjoying the banter thoroughly - (e)specially about how its' spelt Mike - dreaming about owning and flying a Europa ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:02:43 AM PST US From: "Rob Housman" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Semantics & nit picking - oil on troubled waters --> Europa-List message posted by: "Rob Housman" Paul, some may have misunderstood, but not I. Nor did I take offense because I do know the difference between an adverb and an adjective and in this example I did indeed fail to notice my incorrect usage (which I can not even blame on "American English" usage). Ergo, nothing "went horribly wrong." ...and you guys talk funny too ;-) DO NOT ARCHIVE Best regards, Rob Housman Europa XS Tri-Gear A070 Airframe complete Irvine, CA -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Paul Mansfield Subject: Europa-List: Semantics & nit picking - oil on troubled waters --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul Mansfield" I fear some misunderstanding: There was some talk of Imperial vs Metric measurements, followed by a joke about the way the English spell - I knew it was a joke because it had :) after it!! I replied with a not funny joke about adverbs (they're never funny if you have to explain) and it all went horribly wrong from there... I know that nobody intended any slur - most especially on anybody dyslexic. I have nothing but admiration for Steve's gift of technical insight - I'm trying to build an aeroplane (that spelling thing again!) with mechanical dyslexia -- now that's a real disadvantage! We may be "two nations separated by a common language"; but we are one group joined by a common bond - love of the air. Peace and goodwill .... Paul Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Augustene Brown Subject: Re: Europa-List: politics ... and semantics nit picking --> Europa-List message posted by: Augustene Brown --> ScramIt@aol.com wrote: >--> Europa-List message posted by: ScramIt@aol.com > > >>| ...and, oh yes, you spell funny too :) >> >> >> >Steve, > > There are those few obnoxious boors who will always find a way to try discredit their fellows. Wouldn't it be nice to get back to the original intent of the forum - to support fellow builders, fellow flyers, and share information. Regards, Augustene Brown XS Monowheel N398JB Flying since 2000 and going strong > > advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:12:51 AM PST US From: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Kitty Hawk --> Europa-List message posted by: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com In a message dated 12/17/2003 2:40:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, kaarsber@terra.com.br writes: > Oh but there are plenty, for those with an axe to grind, :-) my good > countryman Santos Dumont was registered as the first for a long time and > it would thus be wrong not to stand up for him in these nationalistic > times.... Wasn't it Santos Dumont who exclaimed, after seeing the Wrights demonstrate their Flyer III in France (circa 1908-09) complete with 360 degree turns, "We are beaten! We do not exist!" I seem to recall that from my History of Aviation class at Embry-Riddle some 22 odd years ago. DO NOT ARCHIVE Regards, John Lawton Dunlap, TN A-245 (Working on flap extensions having finally successfully drilled my tiebar and W-34 gusset plates after 3 tries) ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:19:23 AM PST US From: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Trail edge thickness and shape --> Europa-List message posted by: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com Regarding boundary layer separation on trailing edges, has anybody tried the zigzag tape commonly used on gliders as a method of trailing edge boundary layer separation? Regards, John Lawton Dunlap, TN A-245 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:45:12 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Europa-List: Firewall heat shield. --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton At 23:56 17/12/2003 -0800, you wrote: >Tony S. Krzyzewski wrote: > > >Several builders have already discovered that this is a great way of > >ensuring a short life for your exhaust pipes. I think there's a note in > >the Europa technical bulletins somewhere advising against wrapping the > >exhaust pipes. >Thanks for that one Tony! > >Do you know why, is it about corrosion or what? > >Alex Unknown to the company at the time, suppliers stopped using stainless for the runners and switched to mild steel. The very hot gases Rotax exhaust just burnt through the pipes. I know of no problems with the earlier stainless runners. There was an issue related to vibration causing cracking but that was easily avoided by proper support of the weight of the silencer and balancing the prop. Warps are not well balanced and the old Classic spinners were very poor in this respect. (suppliers again ? or emptor lack of caveat?) The current silencer seems very good. Ceramic coating is believed to keep a lot of the heat in the gases but I have no experience with it. Graham --- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:45:12 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Europa-List: Inventions --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton At 23:56 17/12/2003 -0800, you wrote: >It was, of course also Danish vikings who discovered America which >should give us the right to be Fathers of America. (Conveniently >forgetting about the previous inhabitants) There is evidence (genetic and artifacts, flint tools) that some of the earliest Americans came from France around 17,000 years ago. They walked there from SW France, round the edge of the ice. Probably driven out by invading hooligans from the east. Interesting but irrelevant ?;-) Graham --- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:32:37 AM PST US From: Alex Kaarsberg Subject: Re: Europa-List: Kitty Hawk --> Europa-List message posted by: Alex Kaarsberg > > >Wasn't it Santos Dumont who exclaimed, after seeing the Wrights demonstrate >their Flyer III in France (circa 1908-09) complete with 360 degree turns, "We >are beaten! We do not exist!" I seem to recall that from my History of Aviation >class at Embry-Riddle some 22 odd years ago. > >DO NOT ARCHIVE > >Regards, > >John Lawton > As I merely go by hearsay in this whole debate and dont profess to any scholastic efforts worth mentioning, I can only say that I believe you. The Wright Brothers were said to be bent on getting lucrative military contracts in connection with their patents on the flyers where Santos Dumont was a peacenik- he killed himself when he learnt of the use aircraft had been put to in the war. Did they have to provide proof of having flown before Santos Dumont to achieve their patent? S.D. did not patent anything as far as I know, but wanted the knowledge to go to the good of humanity. Being the son of a rich man allowed for that... It is easy to imagine an altruist seeing the work of his peers and becoming enthusiastic. ...but if the pictures were only published in 1907 (when they had a 4 x stronger engine-the first gave some 28kg/hp (sorry SIists/Imperialists etc.) I still dont see where the proof is for the date of the first flight. The outburst you quote above certainly alludes to the performance of the MkIII much later? All that being said, their work and many of their contemporaries work all went to what we know today. The Wrights got started when they read of Lilienthal and he in turn must have learnt of others before him. If the Wrights had had a better engine in 03 I am sure they would have flown...:-P :-D DO NOT ARCHIVE Alex ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:40:35 AM PST US From: Alex Kaarsberg Subject: Re: Europa-List: Inventions --> Europa-List message posted by: Alex Kaarsberg >There is evidence (genetic and artifacts, flint tools) that some of the >earliest Americans came from France around 17,000 years ago. They walked >there from SW France, round the edge of the ice. Probably driven out by >invading hooligans from the east. >Interesting but irrelevant ?;-) >Graham > > > And I am sure the striking similarity between native americans, north as well as south america, with asians and inuits must be proof of something similar. Still doesnt mean I dont want the title of Father of America to give them an earfig when they need one! ;-) Alex ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:09:52 PM PST US From: "Nigel Graham" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Inventions --> Europa-List message posted by: "Nigel Graham" .......probably did it to escape the exorbitant taxation! Nigel;-) There is evidence (genetic and artifacts, flint tools) that some of the earliest Americans came from France around 17,000 years ago. They walked there from SW France, round the edge of the ice. Probably driven out by invading hooligans from the east. Interesting but irrelevant ?;-) Graham --- = == == == == ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:13:13 PM PST US From: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Inventions --> Europa-List message posted by: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com In a message dated 12/19/2003 3:10:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, nigel_graham@btclick.com writes: > There is evidence (genetic and artifacts, flint tools) that some of the > earliest Americans came from France around 17,000 years ago. I was reading an article a couple of months back that stated divers off the coast of South Carolina found an ancient sea shore and with it stone tools that pre-date the Clovis find by some 12,000-15,000 years or roughly dated at 27,000 years ago. Then again, with reference to the Vikings, Columbus, et al, how do you "discover" a continent that already had 20 million people living on it? DO NOT ARCHIVE Regards, John Lawton Dunlap, TN A-245 (no building today, fighting off a cold) ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:30:45 PM PST US From: "Karel Vranken" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Kitty Hawk --> Europa-List message posted by: "Karel Vranken" In 1980 while I was a glider instructor, they asked me to write an article about gliding history. During that exercise I received a book written by Kurt W. Streit and John W.R. Taylor about the History of Aviation. I was impressed and will relate here some of the introduction in my school english because the original book is in German and my mothertongue is Dutch. Only 100 years passed by since the Wright brotrhers undertook publicly a flight with a motorized aircraft heavier than the air. Their first flight on december 17th 1903 was smaller than the wingspan of a modern airliner. But was it the first motorflight of history? Certainly not. Rechearch hat been untertaken and they know about a certain Gustav Weisskopf, born in Leuterhausen and emigrated to the U.S.A. where he was named Gustav Whitehead. He should have flown in Bridgeport (Connecticut) on august 14th 1901 with a homebuild motorized aircraft over 1.4 miles. Historians will always be confronted with such problems. Was the He 178 the first "jet" in 1939? Or was it the Coandas in 1910 who was the first "turbo-prop"? Even if we accept that the Wright brothers and Weisskopf did the first by men controlled flights; than we can't deny that Karl Jatho in august 1903 made longer flights in Germany as Orville did by his first hop. Nevertheless, it were the Wright brothers who became famous as they mastered flights admired by all pioneers in the world short after their first essay. The honor and glory is well merited as they were certainly the first who didn't only fly straight on, but also curved and flew across the Hudson river. Their great tutor was Otto Lilienthal. The Wrights were at their moment the masters in motorized flight but not the firsts who left mother earth behind with controlled flying machines heavier than the air. Lilienthal ten years earlier did some 2.500 flights with a self made glider. The motor aircraft of Flix du Temple had flown in 1873 in Brest for a short distance and Sir George Cayley, 21 years before forced his coachman to fly across a valley in Yorkshire. To find other "firsts" we need to go back for nearly 200 years in 1783 when the brothers Montgolfier invent the hot air balloon. In Lisboa they have another story where the priest Bartholomeo Lorenzo de Gusmao from Brazil (point to Alex) in 1709 demonstrated before king John V a hot air balloon. Here was a real beginning of conquering the air by trying to make the dreams of Leonardo da Vinci and Roger Bacon come true. It was a first attempt of realising what until then was antique theory. Anyway, we are lucky men because they all did what finally give us the opportunity to build a modern home build. My thankfull heart encloses great feelings for all the pioneers and last but not least: Thank you Ivan for the dream, thank you Don for the beautifull wings. Karel Vranken Belgium #447 mono xs 912ULS Airmaster CSU paintings half way, panel nearly finished, will fly next year and even if she will not be the first, be sure she is the best. Merry Christmas and happy landings! >From: Alex Kaarsberg >Reply-To: europa-list@matronics.com >To: europa-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Europa-List: Kitty Hawk >Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 16:32:03 -0200 > >--> Europa-List message posted by: Alex Kaarsberg > > > > > > >Wasn't it Santos Dumont who exclaimed, after seeing the Wrights >demonstrate > >their Flyer III in France (circa 1908-09) complete with 360 degree turns, >"We > >are beaten! We do not exist!" I seem to recall that from my History of >Aviation > >class at Embry-Riddle some 22 odd years ago. > > > >DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > >Regards, > > > >John Lawton > > > >As I merely go by hearsay in this whole debate and dont profess to any >scholastic efforts worth mentioning, I can only say that I believe you. > >The Wright Brothers were said to be bent on getting lucrative military >contracts in connection with their patents on the flyers where Santos >Dumont was a peacenik- he killed himself when he learnt of the use >aircraft had been put to in the war. >Did they have to provide proof of having flown before Santos Dumont to >achieve their patent? > >S.D. did not patent anything as far as I know, but wanted the knowledge >to go to the good of humanity. Being the son of a rich man allowed for >that... >It is easy to imagine an altruist seeing the work of his peers and >becoming enthusiastic. >...but if the pictures were only published in 1907 (when they had a 4 x >stronger engine-the first gave some 28kg/hp (sorry SIists/Imperialists >etc.) >I still dont see where the proof is for the date of the first flight. >The outburst you quote above certainly alludes to the performance of the >MkIII much later? >All that being said, their work and many of their contemporaries work >all went to what we know today. >The Wrights got started when they read of Lilienthal and he in turn must >have learnt of others before him. >If the Wrights had had a better engine in 03 I am sure they would have >flown...:-P :-D > >DO NOT ARCHIVE > > >Alex > > Geschenkideen voor spetterende eindejaarsfeesten! http://www.msn.be/xmas ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:19:31 PM PST US From: Ralph Hallett III Subject: Re: Re: Europa-List: Cowl Flap --> Europa-List message posted by: Ralph Hallett III MARWAL europa-list@matronics.com wrote: Your email message was temporarily blocked by my spam filter. If you feel this is an error, please follow these instructions. The attached image contains a password. Reply to this email and enter the password in the subject or body of your reply. Thank you. This email account is protected with Spam Bully. www.spambully.com --> Europa-List message posted by: Ralph Hallett III Tom, Would you mind including me in your distribution of photos. For the same reason that Dave needed them... Ralph Hallett n100rh@sbcglobal.net Thanks much Ralph DJA727@aol.com wrote: --> Europa-List message posted by: DJA727@aol.com In a message dated 12/18/2003 5:19:11 AM Pacific Standard Time, beecho@beecho.org writes: > > I too have made a cowl flap although it is for a Jabiru 3300 and Jab > cowl. The Bowden cable from the panel moves a lever/wheel that pushes > the flap down and a spring (from a rat trap) causes it to rise. The > cable/lever do not need to be disconnected when removing the lower > cowling. (I copied that idea from a Brit, sorry I don't remember the > name.) Photos are available. > > Tom Friedland, XS Mono N96V > beecho@beecho.org > Thanks Tom, I think that is what I am going to do the very same thing. I'd love to see photos if you would send them to me. Thanks, Dave Anderson or a > ATTACHMENT part 2 image/jpeg name=AACGYTIWFCO.jpg; name=AACGYTIWFCO.jpg