Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:14 AM - Dolly for UK builder (NDAVISUK@aol.com)
2. 05:21 AM - Re: Europa VHF Aerial Quality (nigel charles)
3. 05:48 AM - Re: Europa VHF Aerial Quality (Robert Borger)
4. 10:14 AM - Bing 64 Carb and Altitude Compensation (irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu)
5. 12:03 PM - Re: baggage bay (Ami McFadyean)
6. 12:37 PM - Re: Failed rudder horn? (Rowland Carson)
7. 01:05 PM - Re: baggage bay (Cliff Shaw)
8. 02:24 PM - Re: Bing 64 Carb and Altitude Compensation (Carl & Dot)
9. 02:55 PM - Re: Bing 64 Carb and Altitude Compensation (Kingsley Hurst)
10. 02:55 PM - Re: Failed rudder horn? (James Nelson)
11. 02:55 PM - Re: Europa VHF Aerial Quality (James Nelson)
12. 03:00 PM - Intermittent Internet Connectivity Issues to Matronics... (Matt Dralle)
13. 03:13 PM - Re: Bing 64 Carb and Altitude Compensation (irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu)
14. 04:10 PM - Re: Failed rudder horn? (DuaneFamly@aol.com)
15. 04:17 PM - Re: Bing 64 Carb and Altitude Compensation ()
16. PM - ()
17. 07:03 PM - Re: Bing 64 Carb and Altitude Compensation (irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu)
18. 09:36 PM - Re: Bing 64 Carb and Altitude Compensation (DuaneFamly@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Dolly for UK builder |
--> Europa-List message posted by: NDAVISUK@aol.com
I am taking delivery of a trigear kit in January. Does anyone have a dolly
that they no longer need? Will pay/collect if it makes sense.
Nigel Davis
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Europa VHF Aerial Quality |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "nigel charles" <nigelcharles@tiscali.co.uk>
>I have the VHF aerial kit from Europa, and am wondering what others
experience with this has been.<
I have the Europa aerial and it works fine for me. Some people have had a
few problems but I think it quite likely the aerial was not to blame. Some
of these were using certain mediocre radios (like the Terra) and thought the
aerial was the problem when it wasn't. Also it is important that the
installation is done properly. Poor junctions and inferior quality coaxial
cable can degrade performance. Make sure the cable never gets squashed or
kinked.
I think the idea of using a standard half wave dipole as far aft as possible
has a lot going for it. It should radiate a good signal pattern, it is as
far away as possible from other wires and large metal parts which can
distort the signal, and by keeping the aerial the maximum distance from
mic/tel wires reduces the risk of feedback problems (although using good
quality screened cable should prevent this anyway).
Nigel Charles
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Europa VHF Aerial Quality |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Robert Borger <rlborger@mac.com>
Tony,
Your question:
"I have the VHF aerial kit from Europa, and am wondering what others
experience with this has been. I suppose I am attemptting to evaluate,
after purchase, which is a bit of a dumb way to go. I am wondering
whether to get a Bob Archer one instead, and before my top is on,
attach it to the inside of the fuse. Any assistance greatly
appreciated. I think if the Europa one is OK I will be running it up
the back of the sternpost."
I also purchased the antennas (Comm, Nav & Xponder) from Europa here in
the US. The antennas they provided for me were all from Bob Archer.
Doesn't Europa Australia provide the same stuff? From your
description of installing in the stern post, I'd guess not.
I have been in communication with Mr. Archer about the installation of
those antennas and he recommends that his Comm antenna be installed in
the Europa vertical stab. If you'd like, I can forward his
recommendations (once I find those particular leaves on the forest
floor my of my saved e-mail). I may have downloaded some white papers
by Bob Archer as well, I'll see if I can locate them as well.
Happy building and a most joyous holiday season and prosperous new year,
Bob Borger
Europa Kit #A221 N914XL Mono 914 Airmaster C/S
(40%) Wings closed, cockpit module installed, working in tail
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208
940-497-2123 - Home
817-992-1117 - Cel
Message 4
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| Subject: | Bing 64 Carb and Altitude Compensation |
12/23/2003 01:13:34 PM,
Serialize complete at 12/23/2003 01:13:34 PM
--> Europa-List message posted by: irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu
Greetings All,
Can someone explain the theory, oft stated by salespeople, that
Rotax engines with Bing carbs compensate for the lack of a mixture
control. I have sought wisdom and counsel from a variety of sources,
but have not found an answer. I've looked through our archive and several
others. I read Mark Wilksch assertion that the Bing is not altitude
compensation
and I tend to believe it since many others (not all on the web) complain
about
decreasing efficiency and increasing fuel flow at high altitudes.
This weekend I even asked the founder and former owner of Mattituck
Airbase (now Teledyne
Mattituck), an engine expert if ever there was one (plug:) (while touring
his most
excellent automotive museum at 21N!). Even he could not speculate on why
constant
vacuum (or constant depression for the UK folks) would lead to proper
mixture
at altitude. These carbs maintain constant downstream vacuum head despite
throttle
setting (compensating for the jet nozzle variably plugging the throat as I
understand it.
I don't think the venturi vacuum stays constant when ambient density
changes.
If true, the constant vacuum should prevent reduction in venturi suction
head
pressure with throttle and therefore lead to increased gas flow and too
rich a mixture at altitude.
I admit to being backwards about mechanicals (from time to time), so come
on and tell us all how the Bing
works for us and why Rotax would choose this device for an aircraft
engine.
Has anyone considered replacing the carbs or just adding a mixture
control?
Since I can get nitrous oxide cheaply, I was thinking about flowing some,
say 10-20 l/min,
into the 912S airbox. It would only be a few percent of engine air intake,
but would lean the
mixture a bit and I could watch the EGTs. One of my tanks holds about
1600 l of nitrous whereas
the same oxygen tank would hold only 660.
Better yet, is Nigel or somebody else persuing Rotax Fuel injection?
Despite reports of
Teal Rain efforts (www.vectorsite.net/twuavc.html ), it seems even the
USAF Predator
while having multistage turbos are not yet fielding fuel injection.
Happy Holidays
Ira N224XS Building Finished!! Testing and Tearing Down to commence
Soon!
Message 5
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Ami McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
Easier still if the fus. is upside-down for the overhead bits.
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony S. Krzyzewski" <tonyk@kaon.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Europa-List: baggage bay
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Tony S. Krzyzewski" <tonyk@kaon.co.nz>
>
>
> >> Thanks Alex, I'll try to do it in one piece, if that fails I'll do it
> in sections. either that or I get the wife to do it, she's better at
> wall papering than me :-)
>
> Do the layup onto a black plastic rubbish sack, cut it into strips of
> the right width and do the layups with the plastic in place (on the
> outer surface!). Once you've got it all nicely tucked in then just peel
> the plastic off. It' really easy doing bid layups like that even when
> you are in a confined space.
>
> Tony
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Failed rudder horn? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson <rowil@clara.net>
At 2003 12 22 23:59 -0500 Ronald J. Parigoris wrote:
>I am a bit unclear as to what exactly happened and how I can prevent it from
>happening to me
Ron - you can find out more by going to <http://www.havkom.se>.
Choose the English version and search for Report RL 2002:19 of 29 Mar
2002.
My understanding of it from Stefan (and as usual I am open to
correction) is that the rudder horn was attached following
instructions in an early draft of the XS manual. A heavy bounce on
landing after the second flight caused it to detach. Current-issue
manuals give instructions for a safe and correct attachment of the
rudder horn.
regards
Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson Europa Club Membership Secretary
| Europa 435 G-ROWI (660 hours building) PFA #16532
| e-mail <europa-club@rowil.clara.net> website <www.europaclub.org.uk>
Message 7
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" <flyinggpa@comcast.net>
Don't neglect to do both front and aft sides of the bulkhead. Two lay-ups
!!!
Cliff Shaw
1041 Euclid ave.
Edmonds WA 98020
(425) 776-5555
N229WC "Wile E Coyote"
Subject: Re: Europa-List: baggage bay
>
> Easier still if the fus. is upside-down for the overhead bits.
>
> Duncan McF.
>
> >
> > >> Thanks Alex, I'll try to do it in one piece, if that fails I'll do it
> > in sections. either that or I get the wife to do it, she's better at
> > wall papering than me :-)
> >
> > Do the layup onto a black plastic rubbish sack, cut it into strips of
> > the right width and do the layups with the plastic in place (on the
> > outer surface!). Once you've got it all nicely tucked in then just peel
> > the plastic off. It' really easy doing bid layups like that even when
> > you are in a confined space.
> >
> > Tony
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Bing 64 Carb and Altitude Compensation |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Carl & Dot" <carl_p@ntlworld.com>
There is no altitude compensation with the standard Bing/ Rotax setup.
It is possible to lean the mixture by bleeding air into the balancing pipe
between the carbs but this is not an approved modification. You would do
this at your own risk and would certainly invalidate any guarantees
(including any airworthiness certificates).
The fact is that most installations do not fly high enough for this to be a
problem but if you fly in an area of high altitude you could compensate by
changing the needle settings and possibly the main jet but you would need to
take advice from Rotax on this.
----- Original Message -----
From: <irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu>
Subject: Europa-List: Bing 64 Carb and Altitude Compensation
> --> Europa-List message posted by: irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu
>
> Greetings All,
>
> Can someone explain the theory, oft stated by salespeople, that
> Rotax engines with Bing carbs compensate for the lack of a mixture
> control. I have sought wisdom and counsel from a variety of sources,
> but have not found an answer. I've looked through our archive and several
> others. I read Mark Wilksch assertion that the Bing is not altitude
> compensation
> and I tend to believe it since many others (not all on the web) complain
> about
> decreasing efficiency and increasing fuel flow at high altitudes.
>
> This weekend I even asked the founder and former owner of Mattituck
> Airbase (now Teledyne
> Mattituck), an engine expert if ever there was one (plug:) (while touring
> his most
> excellent automotive museum at 21N!). Even he could not speculate on why
> constant
> vacuum (or constant depression for the UK folks) would lead to proper
> mixture
> at altitude. These carbs maintain constant downstream vacuum head despite
> throttle
> setting (compensating for the jet nozzle variably plugging the throat as I
> understand it.
> I don't think the venturi vacuum stays constant when ambient density
> changes.
> If true, the constant vacuum should prevent reduction in venturi suction
> head
> pressure with throttle and therefore lead to increased gas flow and too
> rich a mixture at altitude.
>
> I admit to being backwards about mechanicals (from time to time), so come
> on and tell us all how the Bing
> works for us and why Rotax would choose this device for an aircraft
> engine.
>
> Has anyone considered replacing the carbs or just adding a mixture
> control?
> Since I can get nitrous oxide cheaply, I was thinking about flowing some,
> say 10-20 l/min,
> into the 912S airbox. It would only be a few percent of engine air intake,
> but would lean the
> mixture a bit and I could watch the EGTs. One of my tanks holds about
> 1600 l of nitrous whereas
> the same oxygen tank would hold only 660.
>
> Better yet, is Nigel or somebody else persuing Rotax Fuel injection?
> Despite reports of
> Teal Rain efforts (www.vectorsite.net/twuavc.html ), it seems even the
> USAF Predator
> while having multistage turbos are not yet fielding fuel injection.
>
> Happy Holidays
>
> Ira N224XS Building Finished!! Testing and Tearing Down to commence
> Soon!
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Bing 64 Carb and Altitude Compensation |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" <hurstkr@growzone.com.au>
Ira Rampil wrote:
> Can someone explain the theory, oft stated by salespeople, that
Rotax engines with Bing carbs compensate for the lack of a mixture
control.
Ira,
Well I certainly can't but I'm glad you asked the question because it is
something that has puzzled me also for a long time.
A few years ago in a Europa Newsletter, Ivan Shaw categorically stated
that the Bing Carburettors were NOT altitude compensating and since then
I have always scratched my head wondering how the hell a Europa with a
912 could possibly reach 14,000ft (ref Kim Prout's and Ivan Shaw's trip
to Oshkosh). I have therefore come to the conclusion that while they
may not be actually compensating, they must be more tolerant to ambient
pressure changes than other carbs.
Somewhere in my Rotax literature, I read once that Rotax do supply an
Altitude Compensating Carburettor but I have never heard of anyone
having one.
Like you, I now await further replies in the hope that at least you and
I will learn something.
Cheers
Kingsley Hurst
Europa Mono Classic 281
in Oz
Still a fair way to go but at least I can now sit in a fully enclosed
cockpit.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Failed rudder horn? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: James Nelson <europajim@juno.com>
Ron,
Use the Graham Singleton (?) rudder bell crank drive system. It
utilizes the original push - pull operating system through a bell crank
attached to the rear bulkhead. It is much better system than the factory
system. Any pressure put on the rudder cables is transferred to the bell
crank and not to the bottom of the rudder. The rudder is actuated from
the bell crank via a push pull rod. Check it out. I have the Mono-Wheel
and use that system because it is a better engineered system. Remember,
the factory has to eventually get it off the drawing board and out the
door. I personally feel that Grahams system is superior in design and
strength.
JIm Nelson
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Europa VHF Aerial Quality |
--> Europa-List message posted by: James Nelson <europajim@juno.com>
Tony,
I use the factory unit in the stern post and it works very well.
Just be sure to mount the antenna on a separate strip of glass and then
mount that to the airframe in several places. This will keep any
expansion of the fin with weather from trying to stretch the copper tape.
You should definitely utilize a SWR meter to tune the length. I used
one from Bob Knuckles and tuned mine just the way it should be. Get good
reception and transmitting. No complaints!!!
JIm Nelson
Message 12
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| Subject: | Intermittent Internet Connectivity Issues to Matronics... |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Dear Listers,
Starting at about 1:05pm PDT Matronics starting having intermittent
connectivity issues to the Internet. I've called the ISP and they are
looking into the problem and may do intrusive testing on the line at some
point this afternoon/evening. For the most part, things seem to be working
right now, but the line will drop out every once in a while for 2 to 3 minutes.
This problem will effect connections to the Matronics Web server as well as
distribution of List mail.
I will post a follow up when the problem has been resolved... Hopefully
later today.
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Admin.
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
do not archive
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Bing 64 Carb and Altitude Compensation |
12/23/2003 06:12:59 PM,
Serialize complete at 12/23/2003 06:12:59 PM
--> Europa-List message posted by: irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu
Thanks for your note!!
I don't know that I would agree with the statement that we don't fly high
enough
for the rich mix to matter. At 8000' MSL ambient pressure is 73% roughly
of
sea level. That's 30% wasted gas and decreased HP output and sharply
decreased
range. And that's the altitude I have been told is the sweet spot for
cross country
in this aircraft.
Bleeding air into the airbox is neat idea. The Rotax at cruise nominally
uses
5500 rpm X 1.3 liters displacement / 2 for 4 cycle = 2383 (is this
right??) l/min
of air. Thats why super/turbo chargers have to move so much air to be
effective.
Aside from buying a 914, where can one generate so high an extra flow
rate, say
a compensating 30% boost in flow or 715 l/min or air. Also, the air
plenum system for the 912ULS
does not look very efficient. The rubber skirt after the NACA inlet has
leaks, and there are two
90 degree bends before the air box. That inlet system reduces any ram air
effect we might get.
Thats why I thought liquified, pressurized N2O might be an option. 'Course
a tank would only
last an hour or so for a small effect.
Tis a quandry, but then again, N224XS is registered as an experimental
aircraft ;-)
and thankfully I do not have to contend with the PFA
Happy Holidays All,
Ira
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Failed rudder horn? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: DuaneFamly@aol.com
Jim,
How does it attach to the tailwheel? Do you have any pix of this system? I am
about to get to this point and if Graham has a better mouse trap I would like
to see if it's better for me.
Mike Duane A207
Redding, California
XS Conventional Gear
CM installed, tailplane torque tube in place, landing gear frame installed,
and rudder pedals in with cables.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Bing 64 Carb and Altitude Compensation |
--> Europa-List message posted by: <beecho@beecho.org>
Ira
I have replaced the Bing for my Jabiru 3300 in the Europa Mono with an
Aerocarb so that I can lean. 10,000 to 12,000 feet is not uncommon here
in the West.
Tom Friedland N96V Atascadero, CA
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Bing 64 Carb and Altitude Compensation
--> Europa-List message posted by: irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu
Thanks for your note!!
I don't know that I would agree with the statement that we don't fly
high
enough
for the rich mix to matter. At 8000' MSL ambient pressure is 73%
roughly
of
sea level. That's 30% wasted gas and decreased HP output and sharply
decreased
range. And that's the altitude I have been told is the sweet spot for
cross country
in this aircraft.
Bleeding air into the airbox is neat idea. The Rotax at cruise
nominally
uses
5500 rpm X 1.3 liters displacement / 2 for 4 cycle = 2383 (is this
right??) l/min
of air. Thats why super/turbo chargers have to move so much air to be
effective.
Aside from buying a 914, where can one generate so high an extra flow
rate, say
a compensating 30% boost in flow or 715 l/min or air. Also, the air
plenum system for the 912ULS
does not look very efficient. The rubber skirt after the NACA inlet has
leaks, and there are two
90 degree bends before the air box. That inlet system reduces any ram
air
effect we might get.
Thats why I thought liquified, pressurized N2O might be an option.
'Course
a tank would only
last an hour or so for a small effect.
Tis a quandry, but then again, N224XS is registered as an experimental
aircraft ;-)
and thankfully I do not have to contend with the PFA
Happy Holidays All,
Ira
==
==
==
==
Message 16
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Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Bing 64 Carb and Altitude Compensation |
12/23/2003 10:02:26 PM,
Serialize complete at 12/23/2003 10:02:26 PM
--> Europa-List message posted by: irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu
Hi Fred,
Yes, I have seen the site. Unfortunately this site bandies some jargon
without explaining anything.
For me, their credibility is hurt by their use of "constant velocity" when
it is actually constant vacuum or "depression".
I think my previous description of the theory of operation is right,
though I admit it could certainly be wrong. If I am
wrong, can someone please correct me and explain the intrinsic mechanism
of altitude correction. There is just so much handwaving
regarding this altitude compensation business, it would be welcome by
hundreds of Rotax owners at least.
Cheers,
Ira N224XS
--> Europa-List message posted by: n3eu@comcast.net
irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu wrote:
>
> At 8000' MSL ambient pressure is 73% roughly of sea level.
> That's 30% wasted gas and decreased HP output and sharply
> decreased range.
See HKS' web site, as they use the same carb on their engine:
www.hpower-ltd.com/pages/common_questions.htm
They state that the constant depression carb as used on the 912 can effect
50% of required mixture adjustment up to 10,000 ft. If correct, the
negative effect at 8K would not be so bad. That's before considering
there's a cube root in the equation which relates horsepower to velocity,
so it seems mostly a fuel economy issue.
Regards,
Fred F.
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Bing 64 Carb and Altitude Compensation |
--> Europa-List message posted by: DuaneFamly@aol.com
To those in the know,
If you can't peak the mixture on these carbs then how do you keep from
fouling the plugs? Are the carbs possibly tuned to say 8000 ft and you are just
slightly out of proper mixture when you first take off but it gets better the
higher you fly until you pass through the best peak then go away from peak if you
go higher but you never get so far away that it's noticeable? How are the
exhaust temps from those that are flying?
Mike Duane A207
Redding, California
XS Conventional Gear
CM installed, tailplane torque tube in place, landing gear frame installed,
and rudder pedals in with cables. Now going to Las Vegas for some Holiday cheer.
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