Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:24 AM - AoA and flaps (Graham Singleton)
2. 05:23 AM - electrics (Paul Stewart)
3. 07:44 AM - Re: electrics (Steve Hagar)
4. 08:33 AM - Re: electrics (Kevin Klinefelter)
5. 08:43 AM - Re: electrics (Gilles.Thesee)
6. 09:43 AM - Re: electrics (n3eu@comcast.net)
7. 09:44 AM - Re: Power up questions (n3eu@comcast.net)
8. 10:15 AM - Re: electrics (n3eu@comcast.net)
9. 10:21 AM - Re: electrics (Gilles.Thesee)
10. 02:07 PM - Re: electrics (n3eu@comcast.net)
11. 02:35 PM - Re: Power up questions (Mike Parkin)
12. 02:48 PM - Re: electrics (Gilles.Thesee)
13. 11:43 PM - Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly Posting] (Matt Dralle)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
--> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton <graham@gflight.f9.co.uk>
At 23:56 31/12/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>Graham,
>
>Maybe a little off topic but, what would be the procedure for a no flap
>landing and still be able to see the runway? ............side
>slip?.............too
>much speed floats you a long time!
>Mike Duane A207
Certainly does, especially in a Long EZ! Many years ago I used to fly a
Super Cub, towing gliders. To get in short over the hedge, without snagging
the ropa, we approached high and slow, let it fall out of our hands over
the hedge, then used the regained energy to round out and dump the flaps to
prevent any bounce. I would not recommend that with a Europa, it's not as
forgiving as the Cub was. I'm not as sharp as I was either !:-(
I never needed to do a no flap landing in the Europa. I would suggest the
most sensible method would be to approach with flaps, flare, then dump the
flaps to prevent any roll or bounce. (Unless you are flying a Mono!)
Incidentally, I don't see a need for electric flaps, there is virtually no
lever load at any flap position. Even in a mono wheel, it is possible to
set the flap deflection anywhere between up and down and let go. There was
enough friction to hold the position.
Graham
---
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
--> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Stewart <europa@pstewart.f2s.com>
Having now read 'lecrtic Bob's book twice I fear there is no excuse to
put off delving into electrics any longer. However I have a few
questions I have not as yet found answers to so if anyone can shed light
onto one or more of them I would be very grateful.
1. If (as I intend to) I use OV protection via a relay and 5A c/b,
can I do away with an alternator/generator output switch and pull the
c/b when I want to deliberately take the alternator off line (don't know
when that would be)?
2. Where exactly have folk attached engine block grounding straps?
There are many tapped holes in the engine block without apparent use -
can I use any suitably placed one?
3. What do folk use and where does one get the 30A slow blow fuse
required for battery feed and alternator/generator feed to the main bus?
4. On 'lectric Bob's web site he sells AMP PIDG crimp connectors. Does
any one know if what he refers to as #6 ring terminal is M6 ? ( the
combination of metric everything on the engine and imperial everywhere
else is becoming a bit of a pain)
5. I don't quite follow why, if there is a requirement for the trim
motor to be wired directly off the battery rather than the bus bar, the
same is not true of at least one of the 914 fuel pumps - surely these
are as much if not more flight critical than the trim motor?
6. I intend to wire using fuses rather than c/b ( OV protection
excepted) - is there anything other than this which 'must' be protected
by c/b rather than fuse?
7. What EGT probes have folk used for thier Rotax installations?
8. Am I correct in thinking GPS antennas con 'see' through fibreglass?
(I know this has been discussed before)
Thanks in anticipation and a Happy New Year to all..Regards
Paul Stewart #432
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Steve Hagar" <hagargs@earthlink.net>
Paul:
I recently finished wiring and electrical checkout on my 914 monowheel.
I'll answer your questions on how I did it according to Bob's bible.
1. I used a switch to take the alternator off line. As I read somewhere it
was bad practice to use a CB as a switch. I have this switch marked as
"primary buss", this is alongside the switch marked essential bus alternate
feed which allows the battery to supply the essential bus when thrown. I
wired the big diode a little different than what is shown in Bob's
schematic. I found that there is about an 0.8 volt drop across the diode.
With this slightly lower voltage my electric horizon gyro doesn't fully
spool up. So I wired the alternate feed switch to bypass the diode when it
is off. When flipped on the battery supplies the essential bus but the
diode keeps it from driving the main bus. If you look at figure Z-16 I just
put a wire from the top of the main bus to the open terminal 3 of the E-bus
alternate feed switch shown on that schematic. That way the electric gyro
always gets full voltage.
2. I used the tapped hole on top of the engine case just to the right of
center. I used #4 gauge welding cable for both the ground and power
lines, with crimped ring connectors on each end.
3. I used the fusable links as shown on the Aero Electric schematics
instead of the slo blo fuses.
4. The #6 ring connector is a number 6 machine screw 6-32 not 6mm.
5. I would think if you were trimmed for straight an level flight and your
engine fell off you would have lost your alternator and primary buss. I
guess having the trim motor on the battery allows you to compensate for the
W&B change for the missing engine.
6. I am using the fuses also but had put another CB between the main and
essential busses as shown in the schematic that comes with the diode used
to isolate them.
7. The Westach 712-4D6K K type thermocouple is used.
8. My GPS antenna in inside the fuselage above my head in the space beteen
the doors. It is attached to the trim panel I put above to mount interior
lights etc.
Steve Hagar
A143
Mesa, AZ
> [Original Message]
> From: Paul Stewart <europa@pstewart.f2s.com>
> To: europa-list@matronics.com <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Date: 1/1/04 6:23:16 AM
> Subject: Europa-List: electrics
>
> --> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Stewart <europa@pstewart.f2s.com>
>
> Having now read 'lecrtic Bob's book twice I fear there is no excuse to
> put off delving into electrics any longer. However I have a few
> questions I have not as yet found answers to so if anyone can shed light
> onto one or more of them I would be very grateful.
>
> 1. If (as I intend to) I use OV protection via a relay and 5A c/b,
> can I do away with an alternator/generator output switch and pull the
> c/b when I want to deliberately take the alternator off line (don't know
> when that would be)?
>
> 2. Where exactly have folk attached engine block grounding straps?
> There are many tapped holes in the engine block without apparent use -
> can I use any suitably placed one?
>
> 3. What do folk use and where does one get the 30A slow blow fuse
> required for battery feed and alternator/generator feed to the main bus?
>
> 4. On 'lectric Bob's web site he sells AMP PIDG crimp connectors. Does
> any one know if what he refers to as #6 ring terminal is M6 ? ( the
> combination of metric everything on the engine and imperial everywhere
> else is becoming a bit of a pain)
>
> 5. I don't quite follow why, if there is a requirement for the trim
> motor to be wired directly off the battery rather than the bus bar, the
> same is not true of at least one of the 914 fuel pumps - surely these
> are as much if not more flight critical than the trim motor?
>
> 6. I intend to wire using fuses rather than c/b ( OV protection
> excepted) - is there anything other than this which 'must' be protected
> by c/b rather than fuse?
>
> 7. What EGT probes have folk used for thier Rotax installations?
>
> 8. Am I correct in thinking GPS antennas con 'see' through fibreglass?
> (I know this has been discussed before)
>
> Thanks in anticipation and a Happy New Year to all..Regards
>
>
> Paul Stewart #432
>
>
>
>
>
--- Steve Hagar
--- hagargs@earthlink.net
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Kevin Klinefelter" <kevann@gte.net>
Paul,
Which power distribution diagram (Z- Figure) do you intend to use? And how
did you come to that choice?
Kevin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Paul Stewart
Subject: Europa-List: electrics
--> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Stewart <europa@pstewart.f2s.com>
Having now read 'lecrtic Bob's book twice I fear there is no excuse to
put off delving into electrics any longer. However I have a few
questions I have not as yet found answers to so if anyone can shed light
onto one or more of them I would be very grateful.
1. If (as I intend to) I use OV protection via a relay and 5A c/b,
can I do away with an alternator/generator output switch and pull the
c/b when I want to deliberately take the alternator off line (don't know
when that would be)?
2. Where exactly have folk attached engine block grounding straps?
There are many tapped holes in the engine block without apparent use -
can I use any suitably placed one?
3. What do folk use and where does one get the 30A slow blow fuse
required for battery feed and alternator/generator feed to the main bus?
4. On 'lectric Bob's web site he sells AMP PIDG crimp connectors. Does
any one know if what he refers to as #6 ring terminal is M6 ? ( the
combination of metric everything on the engine and imperial everywhere
else is becoming a bit of a pain)
5. I don't quite follow why, if there is a requirement for the trim
motor to be wired directly off the battery rather than the bus bar, the
same is not true of at least one of the 914 fuel pumps - surely these
are as much if not more flight critical than the trim motor?
6. I intend to wire using fuses rather than c/b ( OV protection
excepted) - is there anything other than this which 'must' be protected
by c/b rather than fuse?
7. What EGT probes have folk used for thier Rotax installations?
8. Am I correct in thinking GPS antennas con 'see' through fibreglass?
(I know this has been discussed before)
Thanks in anticipation and a Happy New Year to all..Regards
Paul Stewart #432
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Gilles.Thesee" <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Hi Steve and all,
>
> 5. I would think if you were trimmed for straight an level flight and
your
> engine fell off you would have lost your alternator and primary buss. I
> guess having the trim motor on the battery allows you to compensate for
the
> W&B change for the missing engine.
I'm sad to say that IF your engine fell off, NO TRIM in the world could
compensate for the missing weight.
What you can do is secure the engine to the airframe with metal cables, like
formula one airplane racing guys do. That is what was required when metalic
props were used. The blades were liable to fatigue failure, and a the
out-of-balance condition resulting from a missing blade tip at 3000 RPM
could very well tear the engine and mount off the fuselage.
I know one guy whose engine tore off on initial climb. Fortunately it stayed
attached to the airframe by the control cables and lines, and he succeeded
in directing his half-controlled fall into the lake below. He swam off the
wreckage uninjured.
Best wishes,
Gilles Thesee
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
--> Europa-List message posted by: n3eu@comcast.net
Paul Stewart wrote:
> 1. If (as I intend to) I use OV protection via a relay and 5A c/b,
> can I do away with an alternator/generator output switch and pull the
> c/b when I want to deliberately take the alternator off line (don't know
> when that would be)?
Good example of where to use a pullable breaker. If used as a switch, the Potter&
Brumfield W23 is rated for 10,000 cycles, similar to others.
BTW re OV, the Rotax regulator schematic I now have tells me she's cleverly fail-safe
(zero/low output when the most likely components fail - the ones that get
hot). The ones which could cause OV do low-current duty, and as the case of
any similarly trivial DC circuit the probability of failure of component failure
is extremely remote. Nevertheless, always your choice.
> 2. Where exactly have folk attached engine block grounding straps?
I used one of the black engine mount bolts. Tested good with 'Lectric Bob's handy
milliohmeter kludge. Starter doesn't draw a lot anyway.
> 3. What do folk use and where does one get the 30A slow blow fuse
> required for battery feed and alternator/generator feed to the main bus?
Time/current curve on automotive fusible link (Littlefuse MAXI) is pretty much
same as a 3AG glass slow-blow (which they still make in 30A, BTW).
> 5. I don't quite follow why, if there is a requirement for the trim
> motor to be wired directly off the battery rather than the bus bar, the
> same is not true of at least one of the 914 fuel pumps - surely these
> are as much if not more flight critical than the trim motor?
Will it ever happen that you might park the aircraft and leave the fuel pump running?
As to flight critical, if one were to seek FAA certification here, there's
no way they'll approve w/o redundant electrical systems for the 914. Running
one direct off the alternator output is the best one can do with one electrical
sys.
However, if you do have OV protection, one pump connected that way poses a serious
safety hazard in the even of an OV trip. This was debated in a thread some
time back.
> 6. I intend to wire using fuses rather than c/b ( OV protection
> excepted) - is there anything other than this which 'must' be protected
> by c/b rather than fuse?
Motors are good candidates for CB's, e.g., tri-gear flap motor, but some production
aircraft mfr's use a fuse there for even bigger motors.
> 8. Am I correct in thinking GPS antennas con 'see' through fibreglass?
Yes.
Reg,
Fred F.
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Power up questions |
--> Europa-List message posted by: n3eu@comcast.net
Paul McAllister wrote:
> Navaids. The internal gyro is loud. It runs smoothly but I was
> wondering how much noise do they make.
> ....
Mine is quite audible, but not bad as far as electrtic gyros go. They need only
be quieter than the engine and prop!
Regards,
Fred F.
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
--> Europa-List message posted by: n3eu@comcast.net
Steve Hagar wrote:
> 5. I would think if you were trimmed for straight an level flight and your
> engine fell off you would have lost your alternator and primary buss. I
> guess having the trim motor on the battery allows you to compensate for the
> W&B change for the missing engine.
Can't argue with that, :-), but one rationale is that if the electrical sys must
be shut off, you'd still be able to trim. However, for the 914, one fuel pump
needs juice. If you don't even have that, then you do a forced landing with
in worst case the plane trimmed for cruise. Likely won't notice it much! Nevertheless,
one can wire the trim to whatever is done to guarantee power to one
pump.
Reg,
Fred F.
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Gilles.Thesee" <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Fred,
Would you mind sharing with us the regulator schematics you have ?
> BTW re OV, the Rotax regulator schematic I now have tells me she's
cleverly fail-safe (zero/low output when the most likely components fail -
the ones that get hot). The ones which could cause OV do low-current duty,
and as the case of any similarly trivial DC circuit the probability of
failure of component failure is extremely remote. Nevertheless, always your
choice.
We've been conducting some investigation into the Rotax regulators, and they
appear to be far from cleverly engineered. Our intention is to make more
precise measurements and scan the thing and it's competitors with a thermal
camera.
Even at 10 A, half the advertised 20 A rating, the unit gets notably hot.
I diffused on this list some schematics and CB pictures.
I'd be glad to learn more and share informations with you.
Best wishes,
Gilles
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
--> Europa-List message posted by: n3eu@comcast.net
Gilles.Thesee wrote:
>
> Fred,
>
> Would you mind sharing with us the regulator schematics you have ?
I have only the one, plus the internal photos, which you shared with me; nothing
independent of that.
> We've been conducting some investigation into the Rotax regulators, and they
> appear to be far from cleverly engineered.
[Nerdy tech stuff follows]
By clever I meant it's an SCR shunt regulator, but they don't use a bridge rectifier,
which is not fail-safe because the ground return is hard-wired. But here
each SCR alternately provides its sibling's ground reference during the period
it is letting a half-cycle of AC pass. If one SCR opens or shorts, output
will be seriously reduced. Another failure mode is ground reference totally severed,
so B+ just floats in space, effectively zero output.
However, your engineer friend may be better at this stuff, with less chance of
being wrong!
> Even at 10 A, half the advertised 20 A rating, the unit gets notably
> hot.
Is is cooler at around 15A? A shunt regulator can be and if so, a good excuse
for more avionics?
Reg,
Fred F.
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Power up questions |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Mike Parkin" <mikenjulie.parkin@btopenworld.com>
> TCU. This doesn't quite run as expected. On power up the servo cycles
and parks it self, however the manual says that the warning and caution
lights should blink on for 1 ~ 2 seconds at power up. Mine don't, although
the do come on briefly when the unit is turned off. Is this correct ?
It sounds as if you might have a problem. My TCU lights work exactly as
advertised.
regards,
Mike
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Gilles.Thesee" <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Fred,
Thanks for your answer.
>
> I have only the one, plus the internal photos, which you shared with me;
nothing independent of that.
>
> > We've been conducting some investigation into the Rotax regulators, and
they
> > appear to be far from cleverly engineered.
>
> [Nerdy tech stuff follows]
>
> By clever I meant it's an SCR shunt regulator, but they don't use a bridge
rectifier, which is not fail-safe because the ground return is hard-wired.
But here each SCR alternately provides its sibling's ground reference during
the period it is letting a half-cycle of AC pass. If one SCR opens or
shorts, output will be seriously reduced. Another failure mode is ground
reference totally severed, so B+ just floats in space, effectively zero
output.
>
Oh, interesting.
> However, your engineer friend may be better at this stuff, with less
chance of being wrong!
>
I'm forwarding our messages to him.
> > Even at 10 A, half the advertised 20 A rating, the unit gets notably
> > hot.
> Is is cooler at around 15A? A shunt regulator can be and if so, a good
excuse for more avionics?
>
We got the impression it was hotter at 12 A than at 10 A. I could barely
touch the case for more than a few seconds.
However it was just a quick and dirty test yesterday before going home to
dress for the New Year's party. More precise measurements will follow.
Tomorrow I'll play with hacksaw and electric drill to strip another failed
unit in order to get a more accurate diagram.
Will keep you posted.
Regards,
Gilles
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly Posting] |
DNA: do not archive
--> Europa-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Dear Lister,
Please read over the Europa-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
Europa-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Europa-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Europa-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Europa-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Europa-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Europa-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Europa-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|