---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 01/01/04: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:24 AM - AoA and flaps (Graham Singleton) 2. 05:23 AM - electrics (Paul Stewart) 3. 07:44 AM - Re: electrics (Steve Hagar) 4. 08:33 AM - Re: electrics (Kevin Klinefelter) 5. 08:43 AM - Re: electrics (Gilles.Thesee) 6. 09:43 AM - Re: electrics (n3eu@comcast.net) 7. 09:44 AM - Re: Power up questions (n3eu@comcast.net) 8. 10:15 AM - Re: electrics (n3eu@comcast.net) 9. 10:21 AM - Re: electrics (Gilles.Thesee) 10. 02:07 PM - Re: electrics (n3eu@comcast.net) 11. 02:35 PM - Re: Power up questions (Mike Parkin) 12. 02:48 PM - Re: electrics (Gilles.Thesee) 13. 11:43 PM - Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly Posting] (Matt Dralle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:24:14 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Europa-List: AoA and flaps --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton At 23:56 31/12/2003 -0800, you wrote: >Graham, > >Maybe a little off topic but, what would be the procedure for a no flap >landing and still be able to see the runway? ............side >slip?.............too >much speed floats you a long time! >Mike Duane A207 Certainly does, especially in a Long EZ! Many years ago I used to fly a Super Cub, towing gliders. To get in short over the hedge, without snagging the ropa, we approached high and slow, let it fall out of our hands over the hedge, then used the regained energy to round out and dump the flaps to prevent any bounce. I would not recommend that with a Europa, it's not as forgiving as the Cub was. I'm not as sharp as I was either !:-( I never needed to do a no flap landing in the Europa. I would suggest the most sensible method would be to approach with flaps, flare, then dump the flaps to prevent any roll or bounce. (Unless you are flying a Mono!) Incidentally, I don't see a need for electric flaps, there is virtually no lever load at any flap position. Even in a mono wheel, it is possible to set the flap deflection anywhere between up and down and let go. There was enough friction to hold the position. Graham --- ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:23:43 AM PST US From: Paul Stewart Subject: Europa-List: electrics --> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Stewart Having now read 'lecrtic Bob's book twice I fear there is no excuse to put off delving into electrics any longer. However I have a few questions I have not as yet found answers to so if anyone can shed light onto one or more of them I would be very grateful. 1. If (as I intend to) I use OV protection via a relay and 5A c/b, can I do away with an alternator/generator output switch and pull the c/b when I want to deliberately take the alternator off line (don't know when that would be)? 2. Where exactly have folk attached engine block grounding straps? There are many tapped holes in the engine block without apparent use - can I use any suitably placed one? 3. What do folk use and where does one get the 30A slow blow fuse required for battery feed and alternator/generator feed to the main bus? 4. On 'lectric Bob's web site he sells AMP PIDG crimp connectors. Does any one know if what he refers to as #6 ring terminal is M6 ? ( the combination of metric everything on the engine and imperial everywhere else is becoming a bit of a pain) 5. I don't quite follow why, if there is a requirement for the trim motor to be wired directly off the battery rather than the bus bar, the same is not true of at least one of the 914 fuel pumps - surely these are as much if not more flight critical than the trim motor? 6. I intend to wire using fuses rather than c/b ( OV protection excepted) - is there anything other than this which 'must' be protected by c/b rather than fuse? 7. What EGT probes have folk used for thier Rotax installations? 8. Am I correct in thinking GPS antennas con 'see' through fibreglass? (I know this has been discussed before) Thanks in anticipation and a Happy New Year to all..Regards Paul Stewart #432 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:44:33 AM PST US From: "Steve Hagar" Subject: RE: Europa-List: electrics --> Europa-List message posted by: "Steve Hagar" Paul: I recently finished wiring and electrical checkout on my 914 monowheel. I'll answer your questions on how I did it according to Bob's bible. 1. I used a switch to take the alternator off line. As I read somewhere it was bad practice to use a CB as a switch. I have this switch marked as "primary buss", this is alongside the switch marked essential bus alternate feed which allows the battery to supply the essential bus when thrown. I wired the big diode a little different than what is shown in Bob's schematic. I found that there is about an 0.8 volt drop across the diode. With this slightly lower voltage my electric horizon gyro doesn't fully spool up. So I wired the alternate feed switch to bypass the diode when it is off. When flipped on the battery supplies the essential bus but the diode keeps it from driving the main bus. If you look at figure Z-16 I just put a wire from the top of the main bus to the open terminal 3 of the E-bus alternate feed switch shown on that schematic. That way the electric gyro always gets full voltage. 2. I used the tapped hole on top of the engine case just to the right of center. I used #4 gauge welding cable for both the ground and power lines, with crimped ring connectors on each end. 3. I used the fusable links as shown on the Aero Electric schematics instead of the slo blo fuses. 4. The #6 ring connector is a number 6 machine screw 6-32 not 6mm. 5. I would think if you were trimmed for straight an level flight and your engine fell off you would have lost your alternator and primary buss. I guess having the trim motor on the battery allows you to compensate for the W&B change for the missing engine. 6. I am using the fuses also but had put another CB between the main and essential busses as shown in the schematic that comes with the diode used to isolate them. 7. The Westach 712-4D6K K type thermocouple is used. 8. My GPS antenna in inside the fuselage above my head in the space beteen the doors. It is attached to the trim panel I put above to mount interior lights etc. Steve Hagar A143 Mesa, AZ > [Original Message] > From: Paul Stewart > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Date: 1/1/04 6:23:16 AM > Subject: Europa-List: electrics > > --> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Stewart > > Having now read 'lecrtic Bob's book twice I fear there is no excuse to > put off delving into electrics any longer. However I have a few > questions I have not as yet found answers to so if anyone can shed light > onto one or more of them I would be very grateful. > > 1. If (as I intend to) I use OV protection via a relay and 5A c/b, > can I do away with an alternator/generator output switch and pull the > c/b when I want to deliberately take the alternator off line (don't know > when that would be)? > > 2. Where exactly have folk attached engine block grounding straps? > There are many tapped holes in the engine block without apparent use - > can I use any suitably placed one? > > 3. What do folk use and where does one get the 30A slow blow fuse > required for battery feed and alternator/generator feed to the main bus? > > 4. On 'lectric Bob's web site he sells AMP PIDG crimp connectors. Does > any one know if what he refers to as #6 ring terminal is M6 ? ( the > combination of metric everything on the engine and imperial everywhere > else is becoming a bit of a pain) > > 5. I don't quite follow why, if there is a requirement for the trim > motor to be wired directly off the battery rather than the bus bar, the > same is not true of at least one of the 914 fuel pumps - surely these > are as much if not more flight critical than the trim motor? > > 6. I intend to wire using fuses rather than c/b ( OV protection > excepted) - is there anything other than this which 'must' be protected > by c/b rather than fuse? > > 7. What EGT probes have folk used for thier Rotax installations? > > 8. Am I correct in thinking GPS antennas con 'see' through fibreglass? > (I know this has been discussed before) > > Thanks in anticipation and a Happy New Year to all..Regards > > > Paul Stewart #432 > > > > > --- Steve Hagar --- hagargs@earthlink.net ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:33:50 AM PST US From: "Kevin Klinefelter" Subject: RE: Europa-List: electrics --> Europa-List message posted by: "Kevin Klinefelter" Paul, Which power distribution diagram (Z- Figure) do you intend to use? And how did you come to that choice? Kevin -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Paul Stewart Subject: Europa-List: electrics --> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Stewart Having now read 'lecrtic Bob's book twice I fear there is no excuse to put off delving into electrics any longer. However I have a few questions I have not as yet found answers to so if anyone can shed light onto one or more of them I would be very grateful. 1. If (as I intend to) I use OV protection via a relay and 5A c/b, can I do away with an alternator/generator output switch and pull the c/b when I want to deliberately take the alternator off line (don't know when that would be)? 2. Where exactly have folk attached engine block grounding straps? There are many tapped holes in the engine block without apparent use - can I use any suitably placed one? 3. What do folk use and where does one get the 30A slow blow fuse required for battery feed and alternator/generator feed to the main bus? 4. On 'lectric Bob's web site he sells AMP PIDG crimp connectors. Does any one know if what he refers to as #6 ring terminal is M6 ? ( the combination of metric everything on the engine and imperial everywhere else is becoming a bit of a pain) 5. I don't quite follow why, if there is a requirement for the trim motor to be wired directly off the battery rather than the bus bar, the same is not true of at least one of the 914 fuel pumps - surely these are as much if not more flight critical than the trim motor? 6. I intend to wire using fuses rather than c/b ( OV protection excepted) - is there anything other than this which 'must' be protected by c/b rather than fuse? 7. What EGT probes have folk used for thier Rotax installations? 8. Am I correct in thinking GPS antennas con 'see' through fibreglass? (I know this has been discussed before) Thanks in anticipation and a Happy New Year to all..Regards Paul Stewart #432 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:43:30 AM PST US From: "Gilles.Thesee" Subject: Re: Europa-List: electrics --> Europa-List message posted by: "Gilles.Thesee" Hi Steve and all, > > 5. I would think if you were trimmed for straight an level flight and your > engine fell off you would have lost your alternator and primary buss. I > guess having the trim motor on the battery allows you to compensate for the > W&B change for the missing engine. I'm sad to say that IF your engine fell off, NO TRIM in the world could compensate for the missing weight. What you can do is secure the engine to the airframe with metal cables, like formula one airplane racing guys do. That is what was required when metalic props were used. The blades were liable to fatigue failure, and a the out-of-balance condition resulting from a missing blade tip at 3000 RPM could very well tear the engine and mount off the fuselage. I know one guy whose engine tore off on initial climb. Fortunately it stayed attached to the airframe by the control cables and lines, and he succeeded in directing his half-controlled fall into the lake below. He swam off the wreckage uninjured. Best wishes, Gilles Thesee ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:43:49 AM PST US From: n3eu@comcast.net Subject: Re: Europa-List: electrics --> Europa-List message posted by: n3eu@comcast.net Paul Stewart wrote: > 1. If (as I intend to) I use OV protection via a relay and 5A c/b, > can I do away with an alternator/generator output switch and pull the > c/b when I want to deliberately take the alternator off line (don't know > when that would be)? Good example of where to use a pullable breaker. If used as a switch, the Potter& Brumfield W23 is rated for 10,000 cycles, similar to others. BTW re OV, the Rotax regulator schematic I now have tells me she's cleverly fail-safe (zero/low output when the most likely components fail - the ones that get hot). The ones which could cause OV do low-current duty, and as the case of any similarly trivial DC circuit the probability of failure of component failure is extremely remote. Nevertheless, always your choice. > 2. Where exactly have folk attached engine block grounding straps? I used one of the black engine mount bolts. Tested good with 'Lectric Bob's handy milliohmeter kludge. Starter doesn't draw a lot anyway. > 3. What do folk use and where does one get the 30A slow blow fuse > required for battery feed and alternator/generator feed to the main bus? Time/current curve on automotive fusible link (Littlefuse MAXI) is pretty much same as a 3AG glass slow-blow (which they still make in 30A, BTW). > 5. I don't quite follow why, if there is a requirement for the trim > motor to be wired directly off the battery rather than the bus bar, the > same is not true of at least one of the 914 fuel pumps - surely these > are as much if not more flight critical than the trim motor? Will it ever happen that you might park the aircraft and leave the fuel pump running? As to flight critical, if one were to seek FAA certification here, there's no way they'll approve w/o redundant electrical systems for the 914. Running one direct off the alternator output is the best one can do with one electrical sys. However, if you do have OV protection, one pump connected that way poses a serious safety hazard in the even of an OV trip. This was debated in a thread some time back. > 6. I intend to wire using fuses rather than c/b ( OV protection > excepted) - is there anything other than this which 'must' be protected > by c/b rather than fuse? Motors are good candidates for CB's, e.g., tri-gear flap motor, but some production aircraft mfr's use a fuse there for even bigger motors. > 8. Am I correct in thinking GPS antennas con 'see' through fibreglass? Yes. Reg, Fred F. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:44:27 AM PST US From: n3eu@comcast.net Subject: Re: Europa-List: Power up questions --> Europa-List message posted by: n3eu@comcast.net Paul McAllister wrote: > Navaids. The internal gyro is loud. It runs smoothly but I was > wondering how much noise do they make. > .... Mine is quite audible, but not bad as far as electrtic gyros go. They need only be quieter than the engine and prop! Regards, Fred F. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:15:59 AM PST US From: n3eu@comcast.net Subject: Re: Europa-List: electrics --> Europa-List message posted by: n3eu@comcast.net Steve Hagar wrote: > 5. I would think if you were trimmed for straight an level flight and your > engine fell off you would have lost your alternator and primary buss. I > guess having the trim motor on the battery allows you to compensate for the > W&B change for the missing engine. Can't argue with that, :-), but one rationale is that if the electrical sys must be shut off, you'd still be able to trim. However, for the 914, one fuel pump needs juice. If you don't even have that, then you do a forced landing with in worst case the plane trimmed for cruise. Likely won't notice it much! Nevertheless, one can wire the trim to whatever is done to guarantee power to one pump. Reg, Fred F. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:21:45 AM PST US From: "Gilles.Thesee" Subject: Re: Europa-List: electrics --> Europa-List message posted by: "Gilles.Thesee" Fred, Would you mind sharing with us the regulator schematics you have ? > BTW re OV, the Rotax regulator schematic I now have tells me she's cleverly fail-safe (zero/low output when the most likely components fail - the ones that get hot). The ones which could cause OV do low-current duty, and as the case of any similarly trivial DC circuit the probability of failure of component failure is extremely remote. Nevertheless, always your choice. We've been conducting some investigation into the Rotax regulators, and they appear to be far from cleverly engineered. Our intention is to make more precise measurements and scan the thing and it's competitors with a thermal camera. Even at 10 A, half the advertised 20 A rating, the unit gets notably hot. I diffused on this list some schematics and CB pictures. I'd be glad to learn more and share informations with you. Best wishes, Gilles ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:07:27 PM PST US From: n3eu@comcast.net Subject: Re: Europa-List: electrics --> Europa-List message posted by: n3eu@comcast.net Gilles.Thesee wrote: > > Fred, > > Would you mind sharing with us the regulator schematics you have ? I have only the one, plus the internal photos, which you shared with me; nothing independent of that. > We've been conducting some investigation into the Rotax regulators, and they > appear to be far from cleverly engineered. [Nerdy tech stuff follows] By clever I meant it's an SCR shunt regulator, but they don't use a bridge rectifier, which is not fail-safe because the ground return is hard-wired. But here each SCR alternately provides its sibling's ground reference during the period it is letting a half-cycle of AC pass. If one SCR opens or shorts, output will be seriously reduced. Another failure mode is ground reference totally severed, so B+ just floats in space, effectively zero output. However, your engineer friend may be better at this stuff, with less chance of being wrong! > Even at 10 A, half the advertised 20 A rating, the unit gets notably > hot. Is is cooler at around 15A? A shunt regulator can be and if so, a good excuse for more avionics? Reg, Fred F. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:35:03 PM PST US From: "Mike Parkin" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Power up questions --> Europa-List message posted by: "Mike Parkin" > TCU. This doesn't quite run as expected. On power up the servo cycles and parks it self, however the manual says that the warning and caution lights should blink on for 1 ~ 2 seconds at power up. Mine don't, although the do come on briefly when the unit is turned off. Is this correct ? It sounds as if you might have a problem. My TCU lights work exactly as advertised. regards, Mike ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:48:10 PM PST US From: "Gilles.Thesee" Subject: Re: Europa-List: electrics --> Europa-List message posted by: "Gilles.Thesee" Fred, Thanks for your answer. > > I have only the one, plus the internal photos, which you shared with me; nothing independent of that. > > > We've been conducting some investigation into the Rotax regulators, and they > > appear to be far from cleverly engineered. > > [Nerdy tech stuff follows] > > By clever I meant it's an SCR shunt regulator, but they don't use a bridge rectifier, which is not fail-safe because the ground return is hard-wired. But here each SCR alternately provides its sibling's ground reference during the period it is letting a half-cycle of AC pass. If one SCR opens or shorts, output will be seriously reduced. Another failure mode is ground reference totally severed, so B+ just floats in space, effectively zero output. > Oh, interesting. > However, your engineer friend may be better at this stuff, with less chance of being wrong! > I'm forwarding our messages to him. > > Even at 10 A, half the advertised 20 A rating, the unit gets notably > > hot. > Is is cooler at around 15A? A shunt regulator can be and if so, a good excuse for more avionics? > We got the impression it was hotter at 12 A than at 10 A. I could barely touch the case for more than a few seconds. However it was just a quick and dirty test yesterday before going home to dress for the New Year's party. More precise measurements will follow. Tomorrow I'll play with hacksaw and electric drill to strip another failed unit in order to get a more accurate diagram. Will keep you posted. Regards, Gilles ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:43:40 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Europa-List: Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly Posting] DNA: do not archive --> Europa-List message posted by: Matt Dralle Dear Lister, Please read over the Europa-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete Europa-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Europa-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Europa-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Europa-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. 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