---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 01/24/04: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:32 AM - Re: Re: USA Europa Fly-In at Oshkosh, WI (Dale G. HetriG Hetrick) 2. 08:02 AM - USA Europa Fly-in Oshkosh 2004 (Bob Jacobsen) 3. 08:15 AM - Re: any wise words for a new builder? (Paul Stewart) 4. 09:43 AM - Re: Drop of the Hat fly in Lands End (R.C.Harrison) 5. 11:34 AM - Back ordered parts (Alan Stills) 6. 12:24 PM - Re: Back ordered parts (Cliff Shaw) 7. 01:19 PM - Re: Gas tank and sight glass vents (n3eu@comcast.net) 8. 01:39 PM - Re: Back ordered parts (Alan Stills) 9. 02:13 PM - Re: Back ordered parts (Karel Vranken) 10. 02:33 PM - Oshkosh fly in (John & Paddy Wigney) 11. 02:40 PM - Lots of words for a New Builder.................... (Tony Renshaw) 12. 03:01 PM - Re: Oshkosh fly in (Dj Merrill) 13. 03:29 PM - Re: Finishing and Painting (Troy Maynor) 14. 03:45 PM - Re: USA Europa Fly-In at Oshkosh, WI (Troy Maynor) 15. 07:48 PM - Re: Finishing and Painting (irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu) 16. 07:57 PM - Re: USA Europa Fly-in Oshkosh 2004 (irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:32:05 AM PST US Subject: Re: Re: Europa-List: USA Europa Fly-In at Oshkosh, WI From: "Dale G. HetriG Hetrick" --> Europa-List message posted by: "Dale G. HetriG Hetrick" nodfin ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:02:59 AM PST US From: "Bob Jacobsen" Subject: Europa-List: USA Europa Fly-in Oshkosh 2004 --> Europa-List message posted by: "Bob Jacobsen" Hi All, As John mentioned in his e-mail we are planning a group fly-in to AirVenture for Europa's this year. This will be a great event and I hope we can get a good percentage of flying Europas to attend. John is doing a lot of work for us at Oshkosh planning parking, some meals and gifts etc. I will be doing the coordination for builders who are flying (or driving) to Oshkosh. I set up a web page at the europa-usa website so you can keep track of who is going and where from. I will update this frequently with the latest infortmation: http://www.europa-usa.com/airventure_2004.htm If you plan on flying a Europa to Oshkosh this year please contact me with your name, aircraft number, location and I will get you on the list. My e-mail is on the contact page. If you are driving I also want to keep track for John drop me an e-mail and I will have a list for that also - this will help with party planning for builders. I need a flight leader from each area to be a contact - If you are interested let me know. Thats all for now - keep an eye on the web page for information from both John & Myself about this. Thanks!! Bob Jacobsen A131 N165BB info@galaxyhobby.com High-speed usersbe more efficient online with the new MSN Premium Internet ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:15:58 AM PST US From: Paul Stewart Subject: Re: Europa-List: any wise words for a new builder? --> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Stewart Andy I'm sure everyone has their favourite tools and tips. For us tools: Dremel - mainly sanding wheels amd glassfibre reinforced cutting wheels but a million uses. Resin pump - there are those for and against but having used one we're in the 'for ' camp Permagrit tool pack Straight edge of various lengths - we got aluminium extrusion from a window manufacturer (one of the builders) Rubber squee gee from aircraft spruce - larger and gentler than plastic 'credit card' type Empty (and unused) mastic tubes - great for laying beads of redux (eg bonding in cockpit module) Loads of clamps - the overgrown clothes peg type have been great. Happy building Regards Paul Stewart #432 > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:43:08 AM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Drop of the Hat fly in Lands End --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" Hi! William I was going for Cark then took a last minute weather check and ducked out. Actually graced Sheffield with my presence, making use of the fax scenario I had with them. Good service and good cafe facilities, don't forget the high viz. jackets, watch out for the turbulence departing 28 or landing 10, it is quite something! Overflew Coal Aston, where Bryan Allsop flies from .... he always told me it was a field! Looks quite presentable as a grass strip, reckon he's keeping it for him self ! Sorry I didn't make it to Land's End but I prefer to always fly TO the doubtfull weather. Now grounded for at least a week . Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Mills" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Drop of the Hat fly in Lands End > --> Europa-List message posted by: "William Mills" > > Hello All, > Anyone like to join me on a fly-in to Lands End tomorrow? The weather looks > good, the temperature is still mild and the days are getting longer. I will > aim for about mid-day. > Regards, > William > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:34:37 AM PST US From: "Alan Stills" Subject: Europa-List: Back ordered parts --> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Stills" Has anyone else had problems getting parts from the factory besides me? I' ve had the front nose wheel fork backordered for about 6 months and can't seem to get an answer of when it'll be here. Seems the factory (across the pond) doesn't have a very good backorder system and can't quite keep track of items not shipped.Is this normal or not? Whats others experience in these matters? Al Stills A095 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:24:12 PM PST US From: "Cliff Shaw" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Back ordered parts --> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" Al I share your problem I intend to go to Oshkosh this summer and speak to Keith about this. ( I can get very direct at times) For the present. I am trying to be very polite. I understand the problem with suppliers and stocking parts in advance of sales. Remember, Europa as a company, is not very big. A lot of us work for or even own much bigger outfits. John in Florida has only one fulltime person, Patty. They do need to do a better job. In many arias. Backorders are only one problem, and I am sure Keith is aware of it. We both need a nose gear wheel. Cliff Shaw 1041 Euclid ave. Edmonds, WA 98020 425 776 5555 Landing gear converson started, working on sockets. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:19:39 PM PST US From: n3eu@comcast.net Subject: Re: Europa-List: Gas tank and sight glass vents --> Europa-List message posted by: n3eu@comcast.net > Hi Fred > Move.. > No snow plows, no geese. 70 degrees here today. Sure could use some > rain. Only 7 inches since last April. We need to dust things > occasionally. > Put your vent in the flap drive slot. Protected from splash, geese, > etc. Tom -- That mostly 70+-deg. stuff in San Diego got boring for me; or at least that attitude helps with coping here. 'Nother winter storm tomorrow. The fairing arrangement at my flap root is impractical for a vent, re pre-flight inspection, and it may now be an area of negative pressure. So my primary vent is run to a 1/4" hole in the leading edge of the vertical fin; won't dribble out of there on a trigear I'd think. Approved by my shop's Aesthetics Consultant (Luke N. Goode) and Director of Airworthiness (Kip M. Flein). Reg, Fred F. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:39:00 PM PST US From: "Alan Stills" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Back ordered parts --> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Stills" Cliff, I guess from what I understand they shop some parts out to "very" small contractors and are pretty much at their mercy......but 6 months is a little long. Worse than the wait is not being able to get an answer as to just when the backordered parts will be in. I suppose it would help to donate a old computer to the factory with a back order "pop up" to remind. Al Stills A095 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:13:28 PM PST US From: "Karel Vranken" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Back ordered parts --> Europa-List message posted by: "Karel Vranken" Alan, We in Belgium had the same problems as you have. Perhaps you have to mail it to the big boss Keith Wilson. Karel Vranken, mono XS # 447. >From: "Alan Stills" >Reply-To: europa-list@matronics.com >To: >Subject: Europa-List: Back ordered parts >Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 12:33:59 -0700 > >--> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Stills" > >Has anyone else had problems getting parts from the factory besides me? I' >ve had the front nose wheel fork backordered for about 6 months and can't >seem to get an answer of when it'll be here. Seems the factory (across the >pond) doesn't have a very good backorder system and can't quite keep track >of items not shipped.Is this normal or not? Whats others experience in >these matters? >Al Stills >A095 > > Hotmail: je gratis e-mail ! http://www.msn.be/hotmail ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:33:37 PM PST US From: John & Paddy Wigney Subject: Europa-List: Oshkosh fly in --> Europa-List message posted by: John & Paddy Wigney Hi John, Great news. I was wondering when the USA Europas were going to reach critical mass. It sounds as though we are there. Count me in to join the fly-in. As you know, I was at Oshkosh last year in N262WF and was able to show my plane in the homebuilders' fly-by. I will travel from my base at 14A in Mooresville, North Carolina and I may have a passenger with me from my local EAA chapter. Thanks for pulling this together. As I remember it last year, the parking space near the Europa stand had a large number of assorted RV?'s and about 10 Velocities. I do not think that camping was allowed in that area but was arranged without problem elsewhere. Cheers, John N262WF, mono XS, 912S <<< Subject: Europa-List: USA Europa Fly-In at Oshkosh, WI --> Europa-List message posted by: "Europa Aircraft" Hi All, We are planning our first mass Europa fly-in at Whitman field in Oshkosh, WI. The Fly-In will be during the Airventure convention. The EAA has actually been very generous, and reserved quite a bit of parking space for us on the convention grounds at the field. The area will be adjacent to the Europa display area. Europa will be assisting the Europa USA & Canada owners group with organizing the Fly-In. Europa will also provide a gift for each pilot that flies in. In addition, if any UK fliers want to ship there airplanes over to tour the US & fly in to Oshkosh, Europa's US office will provide assistance unloading at our office in Lakeland, FL. We will also help with a temporary permit to fly. Contact the Lakeland office if you wish to ship your plane over. For more details visit http://www.europa-usa.com/airventure_2004.htm Hope to see you there! John Hurst Europa Aircraft Lakeland, FL >>>> ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:40:26 PM PST US From: Tony Renshaw Subject: Europa-List: Lots of words for a New Builder.................... --> Europa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw Gidday Andy, I am hoping others might add to this list, not critique it, unless they feel it is blatantly wrong. Together, the list should give you a pretty good idea. Happy building. Reg Tony Renshaw Sydney Australia PERSONAL SAFETY LUNG PROTECTION Everything about this project is bad for you, especially your lungs, and if you don't do the right thing now, well 20 years down the track, when your struggling for breath, you'll remember this warning. Before anything you need a respirator, dual filter, both chemical and particle. Mine is a Sundstrom. They have negatives such as weight which can lead to a headache, but they go away. Also the useful life of the cartridges is to suit an industrial application, and no doubt based on 8 hours per day/ 7 days per week use. As I recall the Sundstrom chemical cartridge had a useful life of only a month or two, and the first sign of it depleting is smells drifting in. The charcoal depletes, but I have used mine in heavily compromised atmospheres, like over the top of an acetone bath, and "not a wiff up to 2 years later". I must stress that any composite sanding is exceptionally dangerous, as too is the fibres of glass that become airborne as you work with it. So, seriously consider wearing a respirator when you cut your cloth, and if you have any doubts, do it on a late afternoon, in the sun, and stand back. Look into the void above your workbench, in the sun remember, and look at the small airborne fibres. You can't even make a cut with a pair of finely serrated scissors (best for cloth cutting if your pizza cutter razor wheel from the local haberdashery is blunt ), without a very fine trail of fibres becoming airborne as you work. SKIN PROTECTION-GLOVES etc. Skin protection is very important, and like most builders you will probably mature into using less protection as the process goes on. Unless you are doing big wing layups or any that are likely to take hours upon end, at a minimum you need gloves, disposable latex etc in boxes of 100. Now don't bath your hands in acetone cleaning up with these gloves, because if you choose to test them by filling them with acetone, they leak! So, the message is with submerging your hands for prolonged periods like cleaning up your squeegees etc. use chemical resistant "washing up gloves". Don't tolerate any part of your resin system to stay on your skin knowingly, especially the hardener. DONT use liquid gloves from Spruce that seal the pores of your skin for protection. I have it on good authority that it doesn't work. EYE PROTECTION is next. Get a "Squirt wash bottle", normally coloured yellow, and find a place for it to live such that "you can find it with your eyes closed". Remember to change the water once in a while. Safety glasses, or normal ones are a must too. Mix resin at arms length, which is quite unnatural, but you can make it habit. It takes a lot more aggresive mixing to splash up into your face that way. Also, you will get a hell of a lot less fumes. MUST HAVE TOOLS DIGITAL SCALES (flick the resin pump idea). I am the resin pump expert, as I have stuggled repeatedly with one all my Classic, "UN" moulded wing, tail etc. So, why do I say forget it??? Well they principally "Kill Hardener". In the storage tank which contains the hardener, it doesn't matter what you do, you will get air, and it will then interact with the hardener, and destroy it by allowing the hardener to develop a white debris scum, which then floats freely within the hardener, or sticks to the sides. I have tried floating lids, plastic bags inside the container attempting to deprive the hardener from air exposure, all to no avail I have thrown away more hardener than I choose to think too closely about. The answer is a good set of electronic scales, ideally Ohaus, accurate to 1/10 of a gram, to maintain correct ratio for smaller mixes. You should make up nothing less than 50 grams, but others will say 100, it depends on whether you have scales accurate to 1/10 gram or only to the gram. CUPS & ACETONE Cups, don't bother cleaning them out as you will go through copious quantitities of acetone, which you want to buy a "20 litre" tin of anyway. Others will talk about a whole range of other options that are less caustic, but the bottom line is that the composite profession, and the vast majority of builders use acetone. Get some cheap chinese food cups from a local restaurant supplier. Buy paper towel from same, in minimum 2 roll quantities, because when you need it you don't want to have to hunt for it, so leave plenty lying around. SYRINGES Oh, back to the resin/hardener. The best answer is large volume syringes. You decant hardener from the tin into a plastic cup, load up your syringe, and pour the rest back into the tin, with the lid tightly back on. The syringe fully charged is airtight and a great means of applying small quantities. Use scales to accurately administer correct ratio of hardener to the resin. When cleaning the syringes in acetone, this is the most likely occasion in my mind of an eye injury. ALWAYS when applying outward pressure on a syringe into the bottom of a shallow filled plastic cup of acetone, wear some form of splash protection, i.e any form of glasses. PERMAGRIT TOOLS You need a set of Permagrit hand tools. There is an 8 piece scroll and you also need a 12" or 18" long sanding spline with fine on one side and coarse on the other. Don't hesitate, they are the best value handtool for a composite project, and if you buy them and don't like them, I'll pay for them!!! Flat workbench, and I mean flat. Is your tailplane preskinned, or do you have to skin it?? I can keep going but I'd like to know about the stage you have before I rabbit on about glassing techniques etc. so get back to me. Remember: Lung Protection. Skin Protection. Eye Protection. Ohaus scales Acetone Chinese food cups.......dispose of rather than clean......far less acetone and if you breathe too much of it, well say goodbye to the delicate mucus linings in your nose! Big volume Syriinges Boxes of disposeable gloves. A good respirator IAt 09:35 AM 1/23/2004 +0000, you wrote: >--> Europa-List message posted by: andy > >Hi , >I've just taken delivery of the Europa XS tail kit and I wonder if those who >have gone through this process before could give me some advice on this part >of the build... > . what would you do differently from first time through? > . are there tools you should have had from the outset? > . what mistakes did you make :) > >I think I'd like to buy a used resin pump - any one in the UK have one for >sale? > >Andy Brown >builder 588 XS Trigear >Nairn, Highlands, Scotland > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:01:45 PM PST US From: Dj Merrill Subject: Re: Europa-List: Oshkosh fly in --> Europa-List message posted by: Dj Merrill Anyone going to have their Europa at Sun-n-Fun? Not sure if I am going to make Oshkosh, and I'd like to see one up close and personal, if possible. -Dj ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:29:19 PM PST US From: "Troy Maynor" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Finishing and Painting --> Europa-List message posted by: "Troy Maynor" Hi Ira, Did you use the primer that came with the Imron or UV Smooth Prime or both? Troy Maynor N120EU Monowheel Classic Left to finish: Paint,interior,engine install, wiring. > > --> Europa-List message posted by: irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu > > Finish Gel coat is very heavy compare to paint. > The Europa kit does not come with a finish gel coat. > Personally, I used superfil and imron(dupont). > > Ira N224XS > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:45:33 PM PST US From: "Troy Maynor" Subject: RE: Europa-List: USA Europa Fly-In at Oshkosh, WI --> Europa-List message posted by: "Troy Maynor" Ditto this from me. I live near Asheville, North Carolina. If an empty seat of a Europa passes within a hundred miles of me I would be happy to meet someone headed North and buy the fuel. Troy Maynor N120EU Monowheel Classic Left to finish: Paint,interior,engine install, wiring. > On this note, if any Europa happened to have an empty seat and > would like to > share expenses on the flight to and back with one of those > unfortunate enough > to not have their aircraft completed yet, please feel free to let this be > known. > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:48:46 PM PST US Subject: RE: Europa-List: Finishing and Painting From: irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu 01/24/2004 10:48:01 PM, Serialize complete at 01/24/2004 10:48:01 PM --> Europa-List message posted by: irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu Hi Ira, Did you use the primer that came with the Imron or UV Smooth Prime or both? Troy Maynor N120EU Monowheel Classic Left to finish: Paint,interior,engine install, wiring. Hi Troy, We went with the dupont system on top of superfil. No water-based stuff. Maybe its just anectdotes but I heard too many bad stories about the water-based products. I hired out the sanding, filling and painting to Johnny's Autobody in Lakeland. They did a spectacular job. I highly recommend them. And. . . . . they did the whole job in only 3-4 weeks! Since I commute from New York to Florida to work on the plane, I could not see myself spend six months sanding. Ira ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:57:48 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: USA Europa Fly-in Oshkosh 2004 From: irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu 01/24/2004 10:57:41 PM, Serialize complete at 01/24/2004 10:57:41 PM --> Europa-List message posted by: irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu Please count me in for a trip to Oshkosh N224XS From New York Ira