Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:22 AM - Re: gel coat (Neville Eyre)
2. 07:53 AM - Sikkens paint (Graham Singleton)
3. 08:40 AM - Re: gel coat (Neville Eyre)
4. 01:33 PM - Re: gel coat (TELEDYNMCS@aol.com)
5. 02:15 PM - Re: gel coat ()
6. 03:21 PM - Re: gel coat (TELEDYNMCS@aol.com)
7. 03:30 PM - Re: gel coat (Karel Vranken)
8. 05:14 PM - Re: Lots of words for a New Builder.................... (Jim Puglise)
9. 05:22 PM - Re: Lots of words for a New Builder.................... (DuaneFamly@aol.com)
10. 08:54 PM - Re: ELT Questions (Cliff Shaw)
11. 10:32 PM - Re: ELT Questions (DuaneFamly@aol.com)
Message 1
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Neville Eyre" <Neville@europa-aircraft.com>
Hi all, AGAIN !
Gelcoat versus Expancell / Eurathane ?
Polyester gelcoat is just fine when used on thick polyester layup's.
Most boats are made from polyester [ it is cheap]. the Gelcoat is applied to the
inside of a female mould [ mold in the U.S.] ,when it reaches the ''tacky to
touch'' cure stage, the resin / lay up is applied. The bond is chemical, it becomes
effectively, a single lay up, no adhesion concerns.
Polyester gel coat applied onto epoxy substrate [ as in the Europa construction]
will not adhere too well. As I mentioned before, do a test token of epoxy lay
up, skinned with Polyester Gelcoat,
and one skinned with Expancell / epoxy, then bend them back and forth, the Polyester
will fail first every time. First the Gel will crack [ polyester Gelcoat
is brittle in comparison to Expancell / epoxy] so then you have effectively a''
hinge line'' which will cause the lay up to fail where local bending occurs.
The Gelcoat will also be able to be peeled off without too much trouble.
Gelcoat is far heavier than Expancell [ it has to be, it is the finnished coat,
much denser / harder] it WILL YELLOW [no matter how good / expensive it is ]
and it does not really protect the substrate from UV.
WHICHEVER topcoat you chose, ensure it has a high UV block in it. Most autopaints,
even expensive ones, only have enough UV block in them to stop the pigment
fading, we need something above 90% UV block to prevent damage to the structure.
The marine paint suppliers will be able to help with that one.
Other tips ?........
I had very many years in the boat building / repair trade, believe me Gelcoat is
not the way to go, a fair proportion of our work was fixing Gelcoat problems
!
Cheers,
Nev.
>>> <TELEDYNMCS@aol.com> 01/26/04 02:04am >>>
--> Europa-List message posted by: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com
In a message dated 1/25/2004 7:04:06 PM Eastern Standard Time,
garrys@tampabay.rr.com writes:
> How come my boat isn't cracking, crazing and yellowing?
Simple. Because you boats skin is very thick compared to the skin of an
airplane and doesn't flex near as much. The hull is facing down, not up, so the
UV
exposure is minimal. Go to any gliderport and look at any 10 year old or older
gel coat finished airplane, particuarly around the tail wheel, corners of the
canopy and edges of the gear doors and you will see what I'm talking about. I
have yet to see one that doesn't have cracks and I see lots of gliders being
that we run a gliderport here in Tennessee. You won't notice the yellowing
unless you put it beside a new airplane, but when you do it's obvious.
And, you're right. Gel coat is 30+ year old technology. 30+ year old
technology that has been surpassed by a better product.
Regards,
John Lawton
Dunlap, TN
A-245
Message 2
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--> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton <graham@gflight.f9.co.uk>
At 23:56 26/01/2004 -0800, you wrote:
>Sikkens product is nothing short of amazing. We were using Autoclor colorbuild
>
>primer. I couldn't imagine any paint being easier to work with or producing
>better results. Like I said, though, it ain't cheap, but if there's
>something out
>
>there that works as well as Sikkens with out the price shock of
>$500/gallon I'd
>
>be interested in knowing about it.
John
Sikkens is made in Holland I think? Has a good reputation here too. I used
PPG Delton, easy to use too and fairly espensive. My primer comes from SP
Systems, they make the Ampreg resin Europa UK supply. BTW I am not an
expert painter.
I suspect that the quality of the finish is very dependant on the skill of
the guy behind the spray gun. Your best plan might well be to go with your
sailplane guru, there's no substitute for experience.
regards
Graham
Message 3
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Neville Eyre" <Neville@europa-aircraft.com>
Hi all, AGAIN !
Gelcoat versus Expancell / Eurathane ?
Polyester gelcoat is just fine when used on thick polyester layup's.
Most boats are made from polyester [ it is cheap]. the Gelcoat is applied to the
inside of a female mould [ mold in the U.S.] ,when it reaches the ''tacky to
touch'' cure stage, the resin / lay up is applied. The bond is chemical, it becomes
effectively, a single lay up, no adhesion concerns.
Polyester gel coat applied onto epoxy substrate [ as in the Europa construction]
will not adhere too well. As I mentioned before, do a test token of epoxy lay
up, skinned with Polyester Gelcoat,
and one skinned with Expancell / epoxy, then bend them back and forth, the Polyester
will fail first every time. First the Gel will crack [ polyester Gelcoat
is brittle in comparison to Expancell / epoxy] so then you have effectively a''
hinge line'' which will cause the lay up to fail where local bending occurs.
The Gelcoat will also be able to be peeled off without too much trouble.
Gelcoat is far heavier than Expancell [ it has to be, it is the finnished coat,
much denser / harder] it WILL YELLOW [no matter how good / expensive it is ]
and it does not really protect the substrate from UV.
WHICHEVER topcoat you chose, ensure it has a high UV block in it. Most autopaints,
even expensive ones, only have enough UV block in them to stop the pigment
fading, we need something above 90% UV block to prevent damage to the structure.
The marine paint suppliers will be able to help with that one.
Other tips ?........
I had very many years in the boat building / repair trade, believe me Gelcoat is
not the way to go, a fair proportion of our work was fixing Gelcoat problems
!
Cheers,
Nev.
>>> <TELEDYNMCS@aol.com> 01/26/04 02:04am >>>
--> Europa-List message posted by: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com
In a message dated 1/25/2004 7:04:06 PM Eastern Standard Time,
garrys@tampabay.rr.com writes:
> How come my boat isn't cracking, crazing and yellowing?
Simple. Because you boats skin is very thick compared to the skin of an
airplane and doesn't flex near as much. The hull is facing down, not up, so the
UV
exposure is minimal. Go to any gliderport and look at any 10 year old or older
gel coat finished airplane, particuarly around the tail wheel, corners of the
canopy and edges of the gear doors and you will see what I'm talking about. I
have yet to see one that doesn't have cracks and I see lots of gliders being
that we run a gliderport here in Tennessee. You won't notice the yellowing
unless you put it beside a new airplane, but when you do it's obvious.
And, you're right. Gel coat is 30+ year old technology. 30+ year old
technology that has been surpassed by a better product.
Regards,
John Lawton
Dunlap, TN
A-245
Message 4
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--> Europa-List message posted by: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com
Hi Neville,
The "University of Neville" leads us through the fog once again!
So, the white stuff on the Europa fuselage and wings is Expancel and not gel
coat? I recall when I asked about it before I bought my kit I was told
specifically it was gel coat, but only enough was applied to fill the weave of
the
cloth to alleviate cracking and peeling problems and to ease the filling and
sanding process for finish.
If anybody wants to see what gel coat looks like after about 10 years,
contact me off list. I've got lots of pictures.
Regards,
John Lawton
Dunlap, TN
A-245
Message 5
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--> Europa-List message posted by: <beecho@beecho.org>
John, I think it is epoxy gelcoat!
Sorry about not getting the Jab photos out. I'll get to it.
Tom
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
TELEDYNMCS@aol.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: gel coat
--> Europa-List message posted by: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com
Hi Neville,
The "University of Neville" leads us through the fog once again!
So, the white stuff on the Europa fuselage and wings is Expancel and not
gel
coat? I recall when I asked about it before I bought my kit I was told
specifically it was gel coat, but only enough was applied to fill the
weave of the
cloth to alleviate cracking and peeling problems and to ease the filling
and
sanding process for finish.
If anybody wants to see what gel coat looks like after about 10 years,
contact me off list. I've got lots of pictures.
Regards,
John Lawton
Dunlap, TN
A-245
==
==
==
==
Message 6
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--> Europa-List message posted by: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com
In a message dated 1/27/2004 5:16:07 PM Eastern Standard Time,
beecho@beecho.org writes:
> John, I think it is epoxy gelcoat!
>
I thought it was gel coat was polyester. Sure smells like polyester when you
sand it.
Regards,
John Lawton
Dunlap, TN
A-245
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 7
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Karel Vranken" <karelvranken@hotmail.com>
Gelcoat and laminair wings.
After 25 years and 2500 hours my motorglider Pik 20E has still his first
coating and though it may have an ivory gloss, it flies like a laminair
sailplane without crackings. I will be there to see all the Europa's after
25 years and inspect them on there first coatings.
Now do you know why the sailplanes had gelcoat? Not only for ease in
production but for grinding afterwards in order to obtain a laminair wing.
Laminair airflow means that the molecules of air near the wingsurface don't
move for 2/1000th of a milimeter let's say 2. Most acryl- or urethane
paints
don't allow that kind of finishing because the final layer is too thin.
Workshop conditions and experience are the best parameters for good results
any what materials you use.
For me the quetion is not only to have a good looking plane on the apron. It
has to go as fast as possible with a laminair wing.
Karel Vranken, Belgium
# 447 mono XS finishing and grinding since 6 months on gelcoat.
>From: <beecho@beecho.org>
>Reply-To: europa-list@matronics.com
>To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: Europa-List: gel coat
>Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 14:14:54 -0800
>
>--> Europa-List message posted by: <beecho@beecho.org>
>
>John, I think it is epoxy gelcoat!
>Sorry about not getting the Jab photos out. I'll get to it.
>Tom
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>TELEDYNMCS@aol.com
>To: europa-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Europa-List: gel coat
>
>--> Europa-List message posted by: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com
>
>Hi Neville,
>
>The "University of Neville" leads us through the fog once again!
>
>So, the white stuff on the Europa fuselage and wings is Expancel and not
>gel
>coat? I recall when I asked about it before I bought my kit I was told
>specifically it was gel coat, but only enough was applied to fill the
>weave of the
>cloth to alleviate cracking and peeling problems and to ease the filling
>and
>sanding process for finish.
>
>If anybody wants to see what gel coat looks like after about 10 years,
>contact me off list. I've got lots of pictures.
>
>Regards,
>
>John Lawton
>Dunlap, TN
>A-245
>
>
>==
>==
>==
>==
>
>
Hotmail: je gratis e-mail ! http://www.msn.be/hotmail
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Lots of words for a New Builder.................... |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Jim Puglise" <jim_puglise@hotmail.com>
Tony-
I just spent a week at Flite-Crafters getting started on my tri-gear. They
use the K-Mart issue catsup bottles and they work just fine. Another hint
for the new builder -- a work table 2X8 feet witha shelf the same size ON
WHEELS. Must be flat on top. Great deal of help to be able to move the
bench to beside the work area and walk all the way around whatever you are
working on on the table.
Jim Puglise A283
CM Installed
Main gear assembled and installed
>From: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com
>Reply-To: europa-list@matronics.com
>To: europa-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Europa-List: Lots of words for a New
>Builder....................
>Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 10:44:51 EST
>
>--> Europa-List message posted by: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com
>
>In a message dated 1/24/2004 5:40:57 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>tonyrenshaw@optusnet.com.au writes:
>
> > SYRINGES
> > Oh, back to the resin/hardener. The best answer is large volume
>syringes.
> >
> > Tony,
> >
> > In lieu of syringes, why not just use tabletop ketchup bottles? They're
> > cheaper. They have caps to keep the air out. You can dispense as little
>as one
> > drop at a time if you want and you don't have to pour unused resin and
>hardener
> > back into the can at the end of a session because they store resin and
> > hardener just as well as the can it came in. And there's no cleaning
>them after
> > use, just refill as needed.
> >
> > Just a thought.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > John Lawton
> > Dunlap, TN
> > A-245
>
>
Scope out the new MSN Plus Internet Software optimizes dial-up to the max!
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Lots of words for a New Builder.................... |
--> Europa-List message posted by: DuaneFamly@aol.com
To All,
For my workbench I used an inexpensive hollow core door on top of two
sawhorses that I built to a comfortable height (tall). I can put it away and take
it
out whenever I need it.
Mike Duane A207
Redding, California
XS Conventional Gear
CM & rudder pedals with cables installed. Working on tailwheel and baggage
bay. Trial fit of top and both wings. The wings fit! Conventional gear soon.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: ELT Questions |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" <flyinggpa@comcast.net>
Mike
I have been cleaning out my "inbox" and found this from you. I can not see
that I answered it. That is not my normal thing and I apologize.
I did not install a ground plane. I don't thing many people do. maybe that
is why the ELT gets such a bad reputation for not being of much value. I
put it in 1/8" plywood stand-off on the aft side of the "D" bulkhead just
below the opening. The unit is under the baggage bay on the Port side. It is
on top of the transponder antenna ground plane. (it acts as a shelf)
Cliff Shaw
1041 Euclid ave.
Edmonds, WA 98020
425 776 5555
glassing in the ribs for the main gear sockets TRI GEAR
----- Original Message -----
From: <DuaneFamly@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: ELT Questions
> --> Europa-List message posted by: DuaneFamly@aol.com
>
> Cliff,
>
> Did you use any form of groundplane? Where did you mount it that was out
of
> the way?
>
> Mike
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: ELT Questions |
--> Europa-List message posted by: DuaneFamly@aol.com
Thanks Cliff,
I plan on doing my setup the same way. Some Forum discussion did convince me
that easy access to the ELT, with it's portable antennae, might be necessary,
so I have changed from screws in the access panel to 1/4 turn clips that can
be opened with a coin. And as someone else pointed out, no telling which way
the antennae would wind up pointing in an off airport landing.
Mike Duane A207
Redding, California
XS Conventional Gear
CM & rudder pedals with cables installed. Working on tailwheel and baggage
bay. Trial fit of top and both wings. The wings fit! Conventional gear soon.
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