Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:28 AM - Re: Repainting the mini U2 (KARL HEINDL)
2. 03:29 AM - Re: Repainting the mini U2 (Ami McFadyean)
3. 06:03 AM - Re: Repainting the mini U2 (rlborger)
4. 08:04 AM - Re: Repainting the mini U2 (n3eu@comcast.net)
5. 11:49 AM - AW: Repainting the mini U2 (Europa (Alfred Buess))
6. 12:01 PM - Wing bottom Mass Bal holes not aligned properly (EuropaXSA276@aol.com)
7. 12:50 PM - Fw: Repainting the mini U2 (Fergus Kyle)
8. 02:09 PM - Re: AW: Repainting the mini U2 (Jeff Roberts)
9. 02:26 PM - Re: Wing bottom Mass Bal holes not aligned properly (Brian Davies)
10. 02:30 PM - Re: Wing bottom Mass Bal holes not aligned properly (JohnDHeykoop@aol.com)
11. 06:02 PM - Re: Wing bottom --- W.E.C. (Cliff Shaw)
12. 06:29 PM - Re; JOHN Wing bottom Mass Bal holes not aligned properly (EuropaXSA276@aol.com)
13. 06:31 PM - Re: Wing bottom --- W.E.C. (EuropaXSA276@aol.com)
14. 08:22 PM - Re: Re; JOHN Wing bottom Mass Bal holes not aligned properly (JohnDHeykoop@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Repainting the mini U2 |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "KARL HEINDL" <kheindl@msn.com>
Dave,
This topic has come around many times. This so called UV protection additive is
little more than a sales gimmick. See previous notes by Graham Singleton etc..
If your aircraft is really exposed to sunlight most of its life , then some
protection is probably required. The only way to stop ultraviolet rays to reach
the structure is to use very dark paint, i.e. a dark green epoxy primer or primer
filler is all you need underneath your topcoat. I didn't do that, but then
my Europa spends most of its life in the garage, in a hangar, or is covered
up. I have used small amounts of smooth prime and found it easy to work with.
It's shelf life, at least that of the hardener , is very limited. For topcoating
I would stay away from polyurethane. I used two-part acrylic urethane with
great success and at low cost. I heard recently that some builders are now using
two-part automotive paints.
Karl
From: "Dave Anderson" dja767@charter.net
Subject: Europa-List: Repainting the mini U2
-- Europa-List message posted by: "Dave Anderson" dja767@charter.net
Hello group.
As a result of finish coat failure (a HUGE, long story), I am starting to experiment
with removing my paint and repainting the airplane. I have UV smooth prime
underneath for the UV protection and after today's trial sanding it is clear
the paint will come off fine, but I will not be able to avoid doing the entire
job over again. I can't leave the primer underneath and get thte finish coat
off. I will attempt to remove the finish coat from the primer on certain areas,
but I am facing repeating history. The plan now is to go with two possible
choices. One is aerothane with an epoxy primer. Unfortunately the epoxy primer
doesn't have UV protection ( what the heck is that anyway, really!). I have
a local painter who has said he does not like the water based UV smooth prime
- he does not use if and has painted airplanes that have been primed with it.
Here is the question: Does anybody know if there is another option for priming
with a UV protection that is not UV smooth prime ( seems everyone uses that stuff)?
Also, since it has been over a year since I painted and I have a gallon
left over, does anybody know what the shelf life of that stuff is? I have purchased
a quart and am going to experiment with different items to paint to see
if i can get a smooth finish.
I just can't wait to get more painting experience! This time, it will work!
Dave
A227
Mini U2
178 hours TT
working on cabin heater, upholstery and REPAINT!
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Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Repainting the mini U2 |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Ami McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
The short answer to your question ("Does anybody know if there is another
option for priming with a UV protection that is not UV smooth prime ") is no
(as far as I know).
But most epoxy primer fillers have significant TiO2 content, which will
block UV. However, manufacturers will not provide any assurance that the
TiO2 is sufficient, so a formal UV barrier is needed.
I'd like to hear an edited version of your "HUGE story". I was never very
impressed with smooth prime; it doesn't fill pinholes as well as they claim.
It feels nice and smooth to the touch after sanding because of the HUGE
amount of talc that they use in it as a filler. That high talc content is
likely one of the reasons that it does not adhere well (or that the next
coat doesn't adhere well).
By the way, there are available aerospace UV-blocking (actually "filtering"
before someone corrects me) lacquers that are used as a final coat (e.g.
Sikkens CTR100, which is a sister product of the paint system that Europa
recommend). This is supposed to provide UV protection. However, I note that
in my case trim colours have faded under this stuff; so that's not all its
cracked-up to be either.
Does anyone know whether mica absorbs UV? Mica was the basis of the early
Polyfiber Smooth Shield, but a paint chemist at PPG told me that mica does
not block UV
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Anderson" <dja767@charter.net>
Subject: Europa-List: Repainting the mini U2
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Dave Anderson" <dja767@charter.net>
>
> Hello group.
>
> As a result of finish coat failure (a HUGE, long story), I am starting to
experiment with removing my paint and repainting the airplane. I have UV
smooth prime underneath for the UV protection and after today's trial
sanding it is clear the paint will come off fine, but I will not be able to
avoid doing the entire job over again. I can't leave the primer underneath
and get thte finish coat off. I will attempt to remove the finish coat from
the primer on certain areas, but I am facing repeating history. The plan now
is to go with two possible choices. One is aerothane with an epoxy primer.
Unfortunately the epoxy primer doesn't have UV protection ( what the heck is
that anyway, really!). I have a local painter who has said he does not like
the water based UV smooth prime - he does not use if and has painted
airplanes that have been primed with it.
>
> Here is the question: Does anybody know if there is another option for
priming with a UV protection that is not UV smooth prime ( seems everyone
uses that stuff)? Also, since it has been over a year since I painted and I
have a gallon left over, does anybody know what the shelf life of that stuff
is? I have purchased a quart and am going to experiment with different items
to paint to see if i can get a smooth finish.
>
> I just can't wait to get more painting experience! This time, it will
work!
>
> Dave
> A227
> Mini U2
> 178 hours TT
> working on cabin heater, upholstery and REPAINT!
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Repainting the mini U2 |
--> Europa-List message posted by: rlborger <rlborger@mac.com>
Dave,
We have already discussed my painting plans and the reasoning behind
them so I won't rehash that, but to answer your questions:
> The plan now is to go with two possible choices. One is aerothane with
> an epoxy primer. Unfortunately the epoxy primer doesn't have UV
> protection ( what the heck is that anyway, really!).
The UV protection is a component of the paint that blocks UV light
preventing it from reaching the composite surface. According to Bob
Setzer and my EAA Tech Advisor, Sonny Logan, this is extremely
important. UV will degrade the epoxy over time resulting in
significant loss of strength of the composite structure.
> Here is the question: Does anybody know if there is another option
for priming
> with a UV protection that is not UV smooth prime ( seems everyone
uses that stuff)?
I do not know of another priming option. But then, I haven't looked
for one either.
> Also, since it has been over a year since I painted and I have a
gallon
> left over, does anybody know what the shelf life of that stuff is?
I recommend that you contact the Ploly Fiber folks for a proper answer.
They can be contacted through e-mail tech support on their web page
(http://www.polyfiber.com) or directly at 800-362-3490. I have found
them reasonable folks to work with.
I hope that this helps prevent another finishing problem.
Good Building & Great Flying,
Bob Borger
Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, 914, Airmaster C/S
(60%) tail kit done, wings closed, cockpit module installed, pitch
system in, landing gear frame in, rudder system in, outrigger mod in,
working chapters 23 Fuselage Top, 24 Instrument Panel, 25 Electrical &
29 Main Gear.
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208
Home: 940-497-2123
Cel: 817-992-1117
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Repainting the mini U2 |
--> Europa-List message posted by: n3eu@comcast.net
rlborger wrote:
>
> The UV protection is a component of the paint that blocks
> UV light preventing it from reaching the composite surface.
> According to Bob Setzer and my EAA Tech Advisor, Sonny Logan,
> this is extremely > important. UV will degrade the epoxy over
> time resulting in significant loss of strength of the composite
> structure.
The min. qualifications for EAA Tech Counselor is having built one
airplane, or commonly an A&P who need know nothing about fiberglass.
Arguably a viewpoint of people who should know is from System III Resins
(market: FG boat owners and builders) is their "The Epoxy Book." The say
there are even clear coatings you can buy to use as the sole coating over
FG which have requisite chemical UV blocking. Else, you can depend upon
the opacity of the primer and topcoat. When latter begins to break down,
maybe even 10-15 years, they say you best remove and recoat.
Their water-based 2-part epoxy primer (not as chalky and more opaque than
Smooth Prime per my sampling ) does not claim to be a special UV blocker,
and they freely discuss other primers for your boat if you want. Skipping
past the part about problems below the water line, they say you can
otherwise use about any primer, with the only possible problem of chemical
reaction with unreacted amines in the resin. Doubtfully any factor on
Europa's sandwich components, and we're careful on mix ratios for the
other stuff.
Can't insist above is definitive either, but at least there's not one
instance of even UV-suspected structural failure in the U.S. accident
database, including gliders back to year one of the data, 1962, just
failures for reasons like builder error in layup or AAL Flight 587.
Reg,
Fred F.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Repainting the mini U2 |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Europa (Alfred Buess)" <ykibuess@bluewin.ch>
Dave and others
Polyfiber's website doesn't say a word about Smoothprime - it seems that
it isn't sold any more (?). I am looking for an alternative, that can be
rolled on and has a record of succes (UV-filtering and well bondig to
its base and the final paint), but have no idea where to find it. This
is strange - composite aircrafts are flying since decades, but this
primer-UV-blocker-thing seems to be either a miracle or a first class
secret. I am sure there are some experts out there and still hope they
will share their knowledge.
Alfred
Alfred Buess
Laenggasse 81, CH-3052 Zollikofen, Switzerland
E-Mail: ykibuess@bluewin.ch
Europa XS #097, Monowheel, Foam shortwing, Rotax 912S, Airmaster 332 CS
Bonding the windows into the door frames
-----Ursprngliche Nachricht-----
Von: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] Im Auftrag von
n3eu@comcast.net
Gesendet: Samstag, 10. April 2004 16:04
An: europa-list@matronics.com
Betreff: Re: Europa-List: Repainting the mini U2
--> Europa-List message posted by: n3eu@comcast.net
rlborger wrote:
>
> The UV protection is a component of the paint that blocks
> UV light preventing it from reaching the composite surface. According
> to Bob Setzer and my EAA Tech Advisor, Sonny Logan, this is extremely
> > important. UV will degrade the epoxy over time resulting in
> significant loss of strength of the composite structure.
The min. qualifications for EAA Tech Counselor is having built one
airplane, or commonly an A&P who need know nothing about fiberglass.
Arguably a viewpoint of people who should know is from System III Resins
(market: FG boat owners and builders) is their "The Epoxy Book." The
say there are even clear coatings you can buy to use as the sole coating
over FG which have requisite chemical UV blocking. Else, you can depend
upon the opacity of the primer and topcoat. When latter begins to break
down, maybe even 10-15 years, they say you best remove and recoat.
Their water-based 2-part epoxy primer (not as chalky and more opaque
than Smooth Prime per my sampling ) does not claim to be a special UV
blocker, and they freely discuss other primers for your boat if you
want. Skipping past the part about problems below the water line, they
say you can otherwise use about any primer, with the only possible
problem of chemical reaction with unreacted amines in the resin.
Doubtfully any factor on Europa's sandwich components, and we're careful
on mix ratios for the other stuff.
Can't insist above is definitive either, but at least there's not one
instance of even UV-suspected structural failure in the U.S. accident
database, including gliders back to year one of the data, 1962, just
failures for reasons like builder error in layup or AAL Flight 587.
Reg,
Fred F.
==
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
==
==
==
Message 6
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| Subject: | Wing bottom Mass Bal holes not aligned properly |
--> Europa-List message posted by: EuropaXSA276@aol.com
Greetings:
My Port side Mass Balance holes in the wing bottom are not aligned properly
with the indention's made at the factory. The root end hole is almost exactly
centered but the tip end is against the brown reinforcement edge on the wing
bottom. I have checked and rechecked the measurements on the mass horns on the
aileron. They are exactly 20 mm from the hinge per the manual instructions.
Referring to photos from others, they are mostly centered. What went wrong?
My concern is that the horn close out will not fit properly and impede final
closing of the wing.
Anyone else had this problem? Perhaps a fix?
Thanks
Brian
a276
Message 7
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| Subject: | Repainting the mini U2 |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Europa (Alfred Buess)" <ykibuess@bluewin.ch>
Subject: AW: Europa-List: Repainting the mini U2
| --> Europa-List message posted by: "Europa (Alfred Buess)"
<ykibuess@bluewin.ch>|
| Dave and others|
| Polyfiber's website doesn't say a word about Smoothprime - it seems that
| it isn't sold any more (?). I am looking for an alternative, that can be
| rolled on and has a record of succes (UV-filtering and well bondig to
| its base and the final paint), but have no idea where to find it. This
| is strange - composite aircrafts are flying since decades, but this
| primer-UV-blocker-thing seems to be either a miracle or a first class
| secret. I am sure there are some experts out there and still hope they
| will share their knowledge.
|
| Alfred
Ich bin mit meinem Freund Alfred in dieser Gegenstand.
Me too. I don't know where to turn to since losing hope in rolling it on in
the back yard.........
Perhaps there is someone whose machine is as pristine as 4000 hours will
permit and who is willing to share the happy results with those of us who
are looking over the abyss............. I've heard good things about Sikkens
and several other marks (exotic to us N Americans).
Are you happy with your 400hr Europa?
Cheers,
Ferg
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Repainting the mini U2 |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Jeff Roberts <jeff@rmmm.net>
on 4/10/04 1:49 PM, Europa (Alfred Buess) at ykibuess@bluewin.ch wrote:
Iam no expert but Just to throw my 2 cents in. I have been helping a couple
of local conard builders that have a lot of composit painting experience.
Steve Wright with Wright Aviation has helped paint several composite
airplanes some of witch are 10 plus years old now and look great. His own
design that he has 14 years of building in is finally flying. Now that he
has solved some cooling problems you may see it at Sun-N-Fun this year. It
is painted with automotive PPG K38 primer and concept acrylic urethane. Not
knowing much myself I will follow his lead and just purchased the K38 primer
and K201 hardener. I have heard terrible stories of paint pealing using the
Smooth Prime water based system. I also like the fact the PPG automotive
paint can be purchased locally. K38 primer is a great filler/primer
according to Steve and several local RV builders I've spoken to. Working
with it is supposed to be very easy. I will let you know on that.
Jeff
Nashville TN
Tri Gear A258 Ready for priming.
> Dave and others
>
> Polyfiber's website doesn't say a word about Smoothprime - it seems that
> it isn't sold any more (?). I am looking for an alternative, that can be
> rolled on and has a record of succes (UV-filtering and well bondig to
> its base and the final paint), but have no idea where to find it. This
> is strange - composite aircrafts are flying since decades, but this
> primer-UV-blocker-thing seems to be either a miracle or a first class
> secret. I am sure there are some experts out there and still hope they
> will share their knowledge.
>
> Alfred
>
>
> Alfred Buess
> Laenggasse 81, CH-3052 Zollikofen, Switzerland
> E-Mail: ykibuess@bluewin.ch
> Europa XS #097, Monowheel, Foam shortwing, Rotax 912S, Airmaster 332 CS
> Bonding the windows into the door frames
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Wing bottom Mass Bal holes not aligned properly |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Brian Davies" <bdavies@dircon.co.uk>
The cure is to cut the top off the horn close out box so that it does not
push the top skin up due to missalignment. After bonding on the top skin
you can replace the horn close out top with a bid layup.
Brian Davies kit 454
----- Original Message -----
From: <EuropaXSA276@aol.com>
Subject: Europa-List: Wing bottom Mass Bal holes not aligned properly
> --> Europa-List message posted by: EuropaXSA276@aol.com
>
> Greetings:
> My Port side Mass Balance holes in the wing bottom are not aligned
properly
> with the indention's made at the factory. The root end hole is almost
exactly
> centered but the tip end is against the brown reinforcement edge on the
wing
> bottom. I have checked and rechecked the measurements on the mass horns
on the
> aileron. They are exactly 20 mm from the hinge per the manual
instructions.
> Referring to photos from others, they are mostly centered. What went
wrong?
> My concern is that the horn close out will not fit properly and impede
final
> closing of the wing.
> Anyone else had this problem? Perhaps a fix?
> Thanks
> Brian
> a276
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Wing bottom Mass Bal holes not aligned properly |
--> Europa-List message posted by: JohnDHeykoop@aol.com
In a message dated 10/04/04 20:02:30 GMT Standard Time, EuropaXSA276@aol.com
writes:
> My Port side Mass Balance holes in the wing bottom are not aligned properly
>
> with the indention's made at the factory. The root end hole is almost
> exactly
> centered but the tip end is against the brown reinforcement edge on the wing
>
> bottom. I have checked and rechecked the measurements on the mass horns on
> the
> aileron. They are exactly 20 mm from the hinge per the manual instructions.
>
> Referring to photos from others, they are mostly centered. What went wrong?
>
Brian
I had a similar problem with my XS wing. Owing to a manufacturing fault the
foam cut-out for the mass balance horn nearest the tip was not in the right
position. I considered briefly whether to reposition the mass balance horns on
the aileron accordingly, but Neville Eyre told me to leave them where they were.
He told me to cut away the inside layer of glass on the wing, and remove the
foam as required, to allow the correct placement of the mass balance boxes.
Having done this, scuff sand the adjacent area of the inner skin, and with a
small flox corner to transition from the skin to the foam, lay up 2 layers of
Bid, and peel ply over the top.
Hope this helps.
John Heykoop
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Wing bottom --- W.E.C. |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" <flyinggpa@comcast.net>
Brian
I too had that same misalignment. I did as John did .
Just "keep building" . Little things like that are not show stoppers.
On another subject: "Wile E. Coyote" flew from Pain Field, Washington
State, USA today. All three wheels worked well. It is a bit slower than it
once was, (so am I, come to think of it) but wheel pants may help. It is a
"pussycat" to land.
Cliff Shaw
1041 Euclid ave.
Edmonds, WA 98020
Converted to Tri-Gear, resuming flight tests.
Re: Europa-List: Wing bottom Mass Bal holes not aligned properly
> writes:
>
> > My Port side Mass Balance holes in the wing bottom are not aligned
properly
>
> I had a similar problem with my XS wing. Owing to a manufacturing fault
the
> foam cut-out for the mass balance horn nearest the tip was not in the
right ----
> Having done this, scuff sand the adjacent area of the inner skin, and with
a
> small flox corner to transition from the skin to the foam, lay up 2 layers
of
> Bid, and peel ply over the top.
> John Heykoop
Message 12
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| Subject: | JOHN Wing bottom Mass Bal holes not aligned properly |
--> Europa-List message posted by: EuropaXSA276@aol.com
Thanks John.
After a few choice words with myself I decided that the foam cut out area may
be incorrectly installed at the factory. Also in a conversation with SteveD
today we agreed that perhaps cutting away some of the foam to allow the
closeout box to be properly installed would be OK. I also sent a letter to Neville
for his opinion. It appears as if I'll need to cut away about an inch of foam.
Can you remember how much you removed?
If you would like to see a photo of my dilemma you can go here.
http://forum.okhuijsen.org/viewtopic.php?t=58&sid=ed49ff1752f5c88ec151df55fdc3
151e
More photos of this pitiful situation are loaded in my builder gallery under
Chapter Nine
http://forum.okhuijsen.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&incl
ude=albums.php&set_albumListPage=2&PHPSESSID=25eab0988b705d79ec16c920b1ea0835
Thanks for your help John!
Brian Skelly
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Wing bottom --- W.E.C. |
--> Europa-List message posted by: EuropaXSA276@aol.com
Congratulations on the Tri conversion Cliff!
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: JOHN Wing bottom Mass Bal holes not aligned properly |
--> Europa-List message posted by: JohnDHeykoop@aol.com
In a message dated 11/04/04 02:29:58 GMT Standard Time, EuropaXSA276@aol.com
writes:
> After a few choice words with myself I decided that the foam cut out area
> may
> be incorrectly installed at the factory. Also in a conversation with SteveD
> today we agreed that perhaps cutting away some of the foam to allow the
> closeout box to be properly installed would be OK. I also sent a letter to
> Neville
> for his opinion. It appears as if I'll need to cut away about an inch of
> foam.
> Can you remember how much you removed?
>
Brian
I had to cut away about half an inch of foam.
John Heykoop
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