---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 04/10/04: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:28 AM - Re: Repainting the mini U2 (KARL HEINDL) 2. 03:29 AM - Re: Repainting the mini U2 (Ami McFadyean) 3. 06:03 AM - Re: Repainting the mini U2 (rlborger) 4. 08:04 AM - Re: Repainting the mini U2 (n3eu@comcast.net) 5. 11:49 AM - AW: Repainting the mini U2 (Europa (Alfred Buess)) 6. 12:01 PM - Wing bottom Mass Bal holes not aligned properly (EuropaXSA276@aol.com) 7. 12:50 PM - Fw: Repainting the mini U2 (Fergus Kyle) 8. 02:09 PM - Re: AW: Repainting the mini U2 (Jeff Roberts) 9. 02:26 PM - Re: Wing bottom Mass Bal holes not aligned properly (Brian Davies) 10. 02:30 PM - Re: Wing bottom Mass Bal holes not aligned properly (JohnDHeykoop@aol.com) 11. 06:02 PM - Re: Wing bottom --- W.E.C. (Cliff Shaw) 12. 06:29 PM - Re; JOHN Wing bottom Mass Bal holes not aligned properly (EuropaXSA276@aol.com) 13. 06:31 PM - Re: Wing bottom --- W.E.C. (EuropaXSA276@aol.com) 14. 08:22 PM - Re: Re; JOHN Wing bottom Mass Bal holes not aligned properly (JohnDHeykoop@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:28:13 AM PST US From: "KARL HEINDL" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Repainting the mini U2 --> Europa-List message posted by: "KARL HEINDL" Dave, This topic has come around many times. This so called UV protection additive is little more than a sales gimmick. See previous notes by Graham Singleton etc.. If your aircraft is really exposed to sunlight most of its life , then some protection is probably required. The only way to stop ultraviolet rays to reach the structure is to use very dark paint, i.e. a dark green epoxy primer or primer filler is all you need underneath your topcoat. I didn't do that, but then my Europa spends most of its life in the garage, in a hangar, or is covered up. I have used small amounts of smooth prime and found it easy to work with. It's shelf life, at least that of the hardener , is very limited. For topcoating I would stay away from polyurethane. I used two-part acrylic urethane with great success and at low cost. I heard recently that some builders are now using two-part automotive paints. Karl From: "Dave Anderson" dja767@charter.net Subject: Europa-List: Repainting the mini U2 -- Europa-List message posted by: "Dave Anderson" dja767@charter.net Hello group. As a result of finish coat failure (a HUGE, long story), I am starting to experiment with removing my paint and repainting the airplane. I have UV smooth prime underneath for the UV protection and after today's trial sanding it is clear the paint will come off fine, but I will not be able to avoid doing the entire job over again. I can't leave the primer underneath and get thte finish coat off. I will attempt to remove the finish coat from the primer on certain areas, but I am facing repeating history. The plan now is to go with two possible choices. One is aerothane with an epoxy primer. Unfortunately the epoxy primer doesn't have UV protection ( what the heck is that anyway, really!). I have a local painter who has said he does not like the water based UV smooth prime - he does not use if and has painted airplanes that have been primed with it. Here is the question: Does anybody know if there is another option for priming with a UV protection that is not UV smooth prime ( seems everyone uses that stuff)? Also, since it has been over a year since I painted and I have a gallon left over, does anybody know what the shelf life of that stuff is? I have purchased a quart and am going to experiment with different items to paint to see if i can get a smooth finish. I just can't wait to get more painting experience! This time, it will work! Dave A227 Mini U2 178 hours TT working on cabin heater, upholstery and REPAINT! Stay in touch better and keep protected online with MSNs NEW all-in-one Premium Services. Find out more here. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:29:04 AM PST US From: "Ami McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Repainting the mini U2 --> Europa-List message posted by: "Ami McFadyean" The short answer to your question ("Does anybody know if there is another option for priming with a UV protection that is not UV smooth prime ") is no (as far as I know). But most epoxy primer fillers have significant TiO2 content, which will block UV. However, manufacturers will not provide any assurance that the TiO2 is sufficient, so a formal UV barrier is needed. I'd like to hear an edited version of your "HUGE story". I was never very impressed with smooth prime; it doesn't fill pinholes as well as they claim. It feels nice and smooth to the touch after sanding because of the HUGE amount of talc that they use in it as a filler. That high talc content is likely one of the reasons that it does not adhere well (or that the next coat doesn't adhere well). By the way, there are available aerospace UV-blocking (actually "filtering" before someone corrects me) lacquers that are used as a final coat (e.g. Sikkens CTR100, which is a sister product of the paint system that Europa recommend). This is supposed to provide UV protection. However, I note that in my case trim colours have faded under this stuff; so that's not all its cracked-up to be either. Does anyone know whether mica absorbs UV? Mica was the basis of the early Polyfiber Smooth Shield, but a paint chemist at PPG told me that mica does not block UV Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Anderson" Subject: Europa-List: Repainting the mini U2 > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Dave Anderson" > > Hello group. > > As a result of finish coat failure (a HUGE, long story), I am starting to experiment with removing my paint and repainting the airplane. I have UV smooth prime underneath for the UV protection and after today's trial sanding it is clear the paint will come off fine, but I will not be able to avoid doing the entire job over again. I can't leave the primer underneath and get thte finish coat off. I will attempt to remove the finish coat from the primer on certain areas, but I am facing repeating history. The plan now is to go with two possible choices. One is aerothane with an epoxy primer. Unfortunately the epoxy primer doesn't have UV protection ( what the heck is that anyway, really!). I have a local painter who has said he does not like the water based UV smooth prime - he does not use if and has painted airplanes that have been primed with it. > > Here is the question: Does anybody know if there is another option for priming with a UV protection that is not UV smooth prime ( seems everyone uses that stuff)? Also, since it has been over a year since I painted and I have a gallon left over, does anybody know what the shelf life of that stuff is? I have purchased a quart and am going to experiment with different items to paint to see if i can get a smooth finish. > > I just can't wait to get more painting experience! This time, it will work! > > Dave > A227 > Mini U2 > 178 hours TT > working on cabin heater, upholstery and REPAINT! > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:03:24 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Repainting the mini U2 From: rlborger --> Europa-List message posted by: rlborger Dave, We have already discussed my painting plans and the reasoning behind them so I won't rehash that, but to answer your questions: > The plan now is to go with two possible choices. One is aerothane with > an epoxy primer. Unfortunately the epoxy primer doesn't have UV > protection ( what the heck is that anyway, really!). The UV protection is a component of the paint that blocks UV light preventing it from reaching the composite surface. According to Bob Setzer and my EAA Tech Advisor, Sonny Logan, this is extremely important. UV will degrade the epoxy over time resulting in significant loss of strength of the composite structure. > Here is the question: Does anybody know if there is another option for priming > with a UV protection that is not UV smooth prime ( seems everyone uses that stuff)? I do not know of another priming option. But then, I haven't looked for one either. > Also, since it has been over a year since I painted and I have a gallon > left over, does anybody know what the shelf life of that stuff is? I recommend that you contact the Ploly Fiber folks for a proper answer. They can be contacted through e-mail tech support on their web page (http://www.polyfiber.com) or directly at 800-362-3490. I have found them reasonable folks to work with. I hope that this helps prevent another finishing problem. Good Building & Great Flying, Bob Borger Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, 914, Airmaster C/S (60%) tail kit done, wings closed, cockpit module installed, pitch system in, landing gear frame in, rudder system in, outrigger mod in, working chapters 23 Fuselage Top, 24 Instrument Panel, 25 Electrical & 29 Main Gear. 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208 Home: 940-497-2123 Cel: 817-992-1117 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:04:28 AM PST US From: n3eu@comcast.net Subject: Re: Europa-List: Repainting the mini U2 --> Europa-List message posted by: n3eu@comcast.net rlborger wrote: > > The UV protection is a component of the paint that blocks > UV light preventing it from reaching the composite surface. > According to Bob Setzer and my EAA Tech Advisor, Sonny Logan, > this is extremely > important. UV will degrade the epoxy over > time resulting in significant loss of strength of the composite > structure. The min. qualifications for EAA Tech Counselor is having built one airplane, or commonly an A&P who need know nothing about fiberglass. Arguably a viewpoint of people who should know is from System III Resins (market: FG boat owners and builders) is their "The Epoxy Book." The say there are even clear coatings you can buy to use as the sole coating over FG which have requisite chemical UV blocking. Else, you can depend upon the opacity of the primer and topcoat. When latter begins to break down, maybe even 10-15 years, they say you best remove and recoat. Their water-based 2-part epoxy primer (not as chalky and more opaque than Smooth Prime per my sampling ) does not claim to be a special UV blocker, and they freely discuss other primers for your boat if you want. Skipping past the part about problems below the water line, they say you can otherwise use about any primer, with the only possible problem of chemical reaction with unreacted amines in the resin. Doubtfully any factor on Europa's sandwich components, and we're careful on mix ratios for the other stuff. Can't insist above is definitive either, but at least there's not one instance of even UV-suspected structural failure in the U.S. accident database, including gliders back to year one of the data, 1962, just failures for reasons like builder error in layup or AAL Flight 587. Reg, Fred F. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:49:46 AM PST US From: "Europa (Alfred Buess)" Subject: AW: Europa-List: Repainting the mini U2 --> Europa-List message posted by: "Europa (Alfred Buess)" Dave and others Polyfiber's website doesn't say a word about Smoothprime - it seems that it isn't sold any more (?). I am looking for an alternative, that can be rolled on and has a record of succes (UV-filtering and well bondig to its base and the final paint), but have no idea where to find it. This is strange - composite aircrafts are flying since decades, but this primer-UV-blocker-thing seems to be either a miracle or a first class secret. I am sure there are some experts out there and still hope they will share their knowledge. Alfred Alfred Buess Laenggasse 81, CH-3052 Zollikofen, Switzerland E-Mail: ykibuess@bluewin.ch Europa XS #097, Monowheel, Foam shortwing, Rotax 912S, Airmaster 332 CS Bonding the windows into the door frames -----Ursprngliche Nachricht----- Von: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] Im Auftrag von n3eu@comcast.net Gesendet: Samstag, 10. April 2004 16:04 An: europa-list@matronics.com Betreff: Re: Europa-List: Repainting the mini U2 --> Europa-List message posted by: n3eu@comcast.net rlborger wrote: > > The UV protection is a component of the paint that blocks > UV light preventing it from reaching the composite surface. According > to Bob Setzer and my EAA Tech Advisor, Sonny Logan, this is extremely > > important. UV will degrade the epoxy over time resulting in > significant loss of strength of the composite structure. The min. qualifications for EAA Tech Counselor is having built one airplane, or commonly an A&P who need know nothing about fiberglass. Arguably a viewpoint of people who should know is from System III Resins (market: FG boat owners and builders) is their "The Epoxy Book." The say there are even clear coatings you can buy to use as the sole coating over FG which have requisite chemical UV blocking. Else, you can depend upon the opacity of the primer and topcoat. When latter begins to break down, maybe even 10-15 years, they say you best remove and recoat. Their water-based 2-part epoxy primer (not as chalky and more opaque than Smooth Prime per my sampling ) does not claim to be a special UV blocker, and they freely discuss other primers for your boat if you want. Skipping past the part about problems below the water line, they say you can otherwise use about any primer, with the only possible problem of chemical reaction with unreacted amines in the resin. Doubtfully any factor on Europa's sandwich components, and we're careful on mix ratios for the other stuff. Can't insist above is definitive either, but at least there's not one instance of even UV-suspected structural failure in the U.S. accident database, including gliders back to year one of the data, 1962, just failures for reasons like builder error in layup or AAL Flight 587. Reg, Fred F. == direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. == == == ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:01:58 PM PST US From: EuropaXSA276@aol.com Subject: Europa-List: Wing bottom Mass Bal holes not aligned properly --> Europa-List message posted by: EuropaXSA276@aol.com Greetings: My Port side Mass Balance holes in the wing bottom are not aligned properly with the indention's made at the factory. The root end hole is almost exactly centered but the tip end is against the brown reinforcement edge on the wing bottom. I have checked and rechecked the measurements on the mass horns on the aileron. They are exactly 20 mm from the hinge per the manual instructions. Referring to photos from others, they are mostly centered. What went wrong? My concern is that the horn close out will not fit properly and impede final closing of the wing. Anyone else had this problem? Perhaps a fix? Thanks Brian a276 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:50:57 PM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: Fw: Europa-List: Repainting the mini U2 --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Europa (Alfred Buess)" Subject: AW: Europa-List: Repainting the mini U2 | --> Europa-List message posted by: "Europa (Alfred Buess)" | | Dave and others| | Polyfiber's website doesn't say a word about Smoothprime - it seems that | it isn't sold any more (?). I am looking for an alternative, that can be | rolled on and has a record of succes (UV-filtering and well bondig to | its base and the final paint), but have no idea where to find it. This | is strange - composite aircrafts are flying since decades, but this | primer-UV-blocker-thing seems to be either a miracle or a first class | secret. I am sure there are some experts out there and still hope they | will share their knowledge. | | Alfred Ich bin mit meinem Freund Alfred in dieser Gegenstand. Me too. I don't know where to turn to since losing hope in rolling it on in the back yard......... Perhaps there is someone whose machine is as pristine as 4000 hours will permit and who is willing to share the happy results with those of us who are looking over the abyss............. I've heard good things about Sikkens and several other marks (exotic to us N Americans). Are you happy with your 400hr Europa? Cheers, Ferg ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:09:32 PM PST US Subject: Re: AW: Europa-List: Repainting the mini U2 From: Jeff Roberts --> Europa-List message posted by: Jeff Roberts on 4/10/04 1:49 PM, Europa (Alfred Buess) at ykibuess@bluewin.ch wrote: Iam no expert but Just to throw my 2 cents in. I have been helping a couple of local conard builders that have a lot of composit painting experience. Steve Wright with Wright Aviation has helped paint several composite airplanes some of witch are 10 plus years old now and look great. His own design that he has 14 years of building in is finally flying. Now that he has solved some cooling problems you may see it at Sun-N-Fun this year. It is painted with automotive PPG K38 primer and concept acrylic urethane. Not knowing much myself I will follow his lead and just purchased the K38 primer and K201 hardener. I have heard terrible stories of paint pealing using the Smooth Prime water based system. I also like the fact the PPG automotive paint can be purchased locally. K38 primer is a great filler/primer according to Steve and several local RV builders I've spoken to. Working with it is supposed to be very easy. I will let you know on that. Jeff Nashville TN Tri Gear A258 Ready for priming. > Dave and others > > Polyfiber's website doesn't say a word about Smoothprime - it seems that > it isn't sold any more (?). I am looking for an alternative, that can be > rolled on and has a record of succes (UV-filtering and well bondig to > its base and the final paint), but have no idea where to find it. This > is strange - composite aircrafts are flying since decades, but this > primer-UV-blocker-thing seems to be either a miracle or a first class > secret. I am sure there are some experts out there and still hope they > will share their knowledge. > > Alfred > > > Alfred Buess > Laenggasse 81, CH-3052 Zollikofen, Switzerland > E-Mail: ykibuess@bluewin.ch > Europa XS #097, Monowheel, Foam shortwing, Rotax 912S, Airmaster 332 CS > Bonding the windows into the door frames > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:26:09 PM PST US From: "Brian Davies" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wing bottom Mass Bal holes not aligned properly --> Europa-List message posted by: "Brian Davies" The cure is to cut the top off the horn close out box so that it does not push the top skin up due to missalignment. After bonding on the top skin you can replace the horn close out top with a bid layup. Brian Davies kit 454 ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Europa-List: Wing bottom Mass Bal holes not aligned properly > --> Europa-List message posted by: EuropaXSA276@aol.com > > Greetings: > My Port side Mass Balance holes in the wing bottom are not aligned properly > with the indention's made at the factory. The root end hole is almost exactly > centered but the tip end is against the brown reinforcement edge on the wing > bottom. I have checked and rechecked the measurements on the mass horns on the > aileron. They are exactly 20 mm from the hinge per the manual instructions. > Referring to photos from others, they are mostly centered. What went wrong? > My concern is that the horn close out will not fit properly and impede final > closing of the wing. > Anyone else had this problem? Perhaps a fix? > Thanks > Brian > a276 > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:30:30 PM PST US From: JohnDHeykoop@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wing bottom Mass Bal holes not aligned properly --> Europa-List message posted by: JohnDHeykoop@aol.com In a message dated 10/04/04 20:02:30 GMT Standard Time, EuropaXSA276@aol.com writes: > My Port side Mass Balance holes in the wing bottom are not aligned properly > > with the indention's made at the factory. The root end hole is almost > exactly > centered but the tip end is against the brown reinforcement edge on the wing > > bottom. I have checked and rechecked the measurements on the mass horns on > the > aileron. They are exactly 20 mm from the hinge per the manual instructions. > > Referring to photos from others, they are mostly centered. What went wrong? > Brian I had a similar problem with my XS wing. Owing to a manufacturing fault the foam cut-out for the mass balance horn nearest the tip was not in the right position. I considered briefly whether to reposition the mass balance horns on the aileron accordingly, but Neville Eyre told me to leave them where they were. He told me to cut away the inside layer of glass on the wing, and remove the foam as required, to allow the correct placement of the mass balance boxes. Having done this, scuff sand the adjacent area of the inner skin, and with a small flox corner to transition from the skin to the foam, lay up 2 layers of Bid, and peel ply over the top. Hope this helps. John Heykoop ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:02:12 PM PST US From: "Cliff Shaw" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wing bottom --- W.E.C. --> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" Brian I too had that same misalignment. I did as John did . Just "keep building" . Little things like that are not show stoppers. On another subject: "Wile E. Coyote" flew from Pain Field, Washington State, USA today. All three wheels worked well. It is a bit slower than it once was, (so am I, come to think of it) but wheel pants may help. It is a "pussycat" to land. Cliff Shaw 1041 Euclid ave. Edmonds, WA 98020 Converted to Tri-Gear, resuming flight tests. Re: Europa-List: Wing bottom Mass Bal holes not aligned properly > writes: > > > My Port side Mass Balance holes in the wing bottom are not aligned properly > > I had a similar problem with my XS wing. Owing to a manufacturing fault the > foam cut-out for the mass balance horn nearest the tip was not in the right ---- > Having done this, scuff sand the adjacent area of the inner skin, and with a > small flox corner to transition from the skin to the foam, lay up 2 layers of > Bid, and peel ply over the top. > John Heykoop ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:29:24 PM PST US From: EuropaXSA276@aol.com Subject: Re; Europa-List: JOHN Wing bottom Mass Bal holes not aligned properly --> Europa-List message posted by: EuropaXSA276@aol.com Thanks John. After a few choice words with myself I decided that the foam cut out area may be incorrectly installed at the factory. Also in a conversation with SteveD today we agreed that perhaps cutting away some of the foam to allow the closeout box to be properly installed would be OK. I also sent a letter to Neville for his opinion. It appears as if I'll need to cut away about an inch of foam. Can you remember how much you removed? If you would like to see a photo of my dilemma you can go here. http://forum.okhuijsen.org/viewtopic.php?t=58&sid=ed49ff1752f5c88ec151df55fdc3 151e More photos of this pitiful situation are loaded in my builder gallery under Chapter Nine http://forum.okhuijsen.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&incl ude=albums.php&set_albumListPage=2&PHPSESSID=25eab0988b705d79ec16c920b1ea0835 Thanks for your help John! Brian Skelly ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:31:59 PM PST US From: EuropaXSA276@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wing bottom --- W.E.C. --> Europa-List message posted by: EuropaXSA276@aol.com Congratulations on the Tri conversion Cliff! ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:22:21 PM PST US From: JohnDHeykoop@aol.com Subject: Re: Re; Europa-List: JOHN Wing bottom Mass Bal holes not aligned properly --> Europa-List message posted by: JohnDHeykoop@aol.com In a message dated 11/04/04 02:29:58 GMT Standard Time, EuropaXSA276@aol.com writes: > After a few choice words with myself I decided that the foam cut out area > may > be incorrectly installed at the factory. Also in a conversation with SteveD > today we agreed that perhaps cutting away some of the foam to allow the > closeout box to be properly installed would be OK. I also sent a letter to > Neville > for his opinion. It appears as if I'll need to cut away about an inch of > foam. > Can you remember how much you removed? > Brian I had to cut away about half an inch of foam. John Heykoop