Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:17 AM - Re: to build or not to build (David Joyce)
2. 04:46 AM - Re: Cooling (KARL HEINDL)
3. 05:29 AM - Europa Club 'Tour de France, 19-26/6/04 (David Joyce)
4. 06:24 AM - Tour de France Trip 19-26/6/04 (David Joyce)
5. 09:01 AM - Re: flash generator units (TELEDYNMCS@aol.com)
6. 12:35 PM - Re: Europa Club 'Tour de France, 19-26/6/04 (Simon Miles)
7. 03:21 PM - Re: to build or not to build (Rowland Carson)
8. 03:58 PM - Re: Cooling (James Nelson)
9. 03:59 PM - Spar Placement Problem (DuaneFamly@aol.com)
10. 05:17 PM - Re: Cooling (Cliff Shaw)
11. 06:04 PM - Re: Cooling (Robert Berube)
12. 07:02 PM - Re: Cooling (Rocketman)
13. 07:47 PM - Re: Spar Placement Problem (Fergus Kyle)
14. 08:28 PM - Re: Cooling (Cliff Shaw)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: to build or not to build |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
Jerry, I should forget hours and think in years. Few people, if it is their
first build, complete in less than three years. However most enjoy the build
process and rather miss it when complete. In any case it is all well worth
it! David Joyce, G-XSDJ
----- Original Message -----
From: asdfa afa df <ccs_mysticdeath@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: to build or not to build
> --> Europa-List message posted by: asdfa afa df
<ccs_mysticdeath@yahoo.com>
>
> Hello,
>
> I have been considering building the Europa after I
> get my Pilot license, just got done with my second
> lesson, on the Europa website they claim as little as
> 500 hours to build, but from what I have read it can
> take up to 4 times that to build this wonderful
> aircraft.
>
> If you could give me a moment of your time and respond
> with how many hours it took to complete your Europa it
> would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Jerry Otto
>
>
> --- DuaneFamly@aol.com wrote:
> > --> Europa-List message posted by:
> > DuaneFamly@aol.com
> >
> > Hi Tom,
> >
> > I guess you are in a pickle. You have already bought
> > a partially built kit
> > but it is on the other side of the country.
> >
> > I was born and raised in Brooklyn, so I cannot
> > envision building a Europa
> > under those circumstances, even if you have a build
> > site upstate. I am lucky
> > enough to have retired early, I built a 36 X 24 shop
> > specifically for my Europa
> > build. I bought a virtually untouched kit and now I
> > spend 4-10 hours a day with
> > my shop 10 feet from the house. I am 648 hours into
> > the build and still see
> > another year of building. So take your situation
> > with a large grain of salt to
> > make a decision. What does your "partner" say about
> > losing more time with you?
> >
> > If you do go forward with the build, think about the
> > type of flying you do.
> > Unless your wanting to fly up around the 20k level a
> > 914 with CS prop may be a
> > bit of overkill. A CS prop may be all that you need
> > to get the performance you
> > want.
> >
> > Good luck with your decision.
> >
> >
> > Mike Duane A207
> > Redding, California
> > XS Conventional Gear
> > CM & rudder pedals with cables installed. Tailwheel
> > complete. Wing pins and
> > tie bar installed. Working on baggage bay.
> > Conventional gear assembled and soon
> > to be fitted.
> > Back from Sun-N-Fun with lots of ideas!
> >
> >
> >
> > Contributions
> > any other
> > Forums.
> >
> > http://www.matronics.com/chat
> >
> > http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm
> > http://www.matronics.com/archives
> > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________
> http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Doctors.net.uk e-mail protects you from viruses and unsolicited messages
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
>
Message 2
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "KARL HEINDL" <kheindl@msn.com>
Jim,
Affirmative, but not sure why the mono cooling would be different.
Karl
From: James Nelson europajim@juno.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling
-- Europa-List message posted by: James Nelson europajim@juno.com
Karl,
Do you have a Mono-wheel?That model seems to have the most
problems with high temps on the ground.If you have a Tri-Gear, It
doesn't have cooling problems at all.In fact it runs too cool. I don't
have the shroud for the top of the engine.The issue is getting heat
from the water and oil while taxiing for any time on the ground.
Jim
N15JN
On Tue, 11 May 2004 01:07:55 +0100 "KARL HEINDL" kheindl@msn.com
writes:
-- Europa-List message posted by: "KARL HEINDL" kheindl@msn.com
Jim,
I am not sure that all that extra work is necessary. I did the
standard factory installation with staggered radiators, and making
sure that all air from the main scoop goes through and not around
them. I have not had any cooling problems with my 912S, even in very
hot weather. I closed the large Naca scoop in front of the oil tank
with tape, and still no cooling problem. I think that the shroud
over the top of the 'S' engine is very effective.
Karl
From: James Nelson europajim@juno.com
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling
Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 18:39:03 -0400
-- Europa-List message posted by: James Nelson europajim@juno.com
Hi Paul,
I did the smoothing out of the inlet all the way to the radiator.
I also included a cooling flap at the outlet of the duct. Ifyou are
doing the factory thing, make sure that NO air get around the oil
and
water radiators.The air will go to the path of least resistance.Use
the rubber fabric if necessary to blank off areas where the air will
go.
I went the unique way and redid the cooling system.I have a separate
oil cooling radiator (original Europa cooler) that has its own duct
inlet.The main large duct is only for the water radiator.It works
very well for my 912 S.I also have some pix if you want to see them.
Jim Nelson
On Mon, 10 May 2004 22:56:39 +0100 Paul Stewart
europa@pstewart.f2s.com
writes:
-- Europa-List message posted by: Paul Stewart
europa@pstewart.f2s.com
Having read several threads rel;ating to cooling recently esp.
relating
to the 914, I'm keen to get this as efficient as possible. I have
seen
several examples offolk smoothing the transition of the lower
cowling
air intake onto the lower surface of the cowling itself. Has anyone
done
any more to reduce the sharp edges of the cooling intake as I seem
to
remember it being suggested air flow could get so turbulent as to
virtually reverse.If anyone has any pics ofwhat they might have
done, I'd be very grateful.
Regards
Paul
G-GIDY
=
=
=
=
=
=
=
=
Message 3
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| Subject: | Europa Club 'Tour de France, 19-26/6/04 |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
If any of you missed the notice in the Europa Flyer it is not too late to join
this fly out. We currently have 6 planes committed and I am happy to go with up
to 10. The trip is designed to be a low pressure one of the sort that wives
should enjoy ( and I am pleased to say that at least two are coming), and to offer
a pleasant introduction to foreign touring for those new to it. Daily stages
will average a little under two hours flying, and the stops are designed
to offer the best of French food and wine and something of interest to do in the
tourist line, for those who don't want to spend the rest of the day flying
round the area, or for everyone if the weather should be difficult. The provisional
itinerary is:
Start - Kemble (for those who would like help with customs, flight planning,
foreign RT, etc - but seasoned fliers start from wherever they like) Overnight
stops - Reims LFSR, Chalons Champforgeuil LFLH, Grenobles Le Versoud LFLG,
CarcassonnesLFMK, Chauvigny LFDW, & Belle Ile LFEA. Several excellent potential
lunch stops have been identified! At Grenobles Jean Phillippe Neel has
kindly offered to lead a trip round Mont Blanc
If anyone else is interested in joining us please contact me by email
or phone 01454 260542 Regards, David Joyce
Message 4
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| Subject: | Tour de France Trip 19-26/6/04 |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
We have a Europa builder joining this trip in a Jodel who is happy to offer a seat
to another builder or possibly two, who would like to join the trip on an
expense sharing basis. Contact me on 01454 260542 if interested.( But I shall
be away between Thursday and Sunday) David Joyce
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: flash generator units |
--> Europa-List message posted by: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com
In a message dated 4/21/2004 1:03:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
EuropaXSA276@aol.com writes:
> In addition we spoke of where to install the box. I mentioned that many
> have
> chosen to install in the wing in hopes of eliminating flash noise on the
> Com.
> He said that so long that the Whelin unit was directly grounded to battery,
> and shielded wiring was used it should not be a problem for cockpit
> installation. Additionaly he noted that the wire shielding could have a lug
> attached and
> grounded to the mounting screws on the box for enhanced protection.
>
> All this being said I'm still looking for feed back from fellow builders.
> Opinions please!
Hi Brian,
I installed a 2 strobe Whelen with remote power supply in my Citabria and
have the same unit I'm installing in my Europa. I've got about a year of flying
with the Whelen in the Citabria now. I have a Flightcom intercom installed and
use Lightspeed ANC headsets. People tell me they can really see the strobes,
even in bright sunlight, and I don't hear a peep when they fire on the
headsets. I grounded the shield wire of the strobe feed wire to the power supply
box
mounting bolts using a solderless terminal, leaving the other end of the shield
at the light ungrounded. I see no reason why noise would be an issue with
this unit.
Hope it helps!
Regards,
John Lawton
Dunlap, TN
A-245 (Wiring, wiring, wiring)
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Europa Club 'Tour de France, 19-26/6/04 |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Simon Miles <Simon.Miles@skynet.be>
David,
You mention that you intend to visit Reims Champagne(LFSR) as one of the
stops during your proposed tour.
In my experience LFSR is not available to GA (because it is a military
field - nevertheless, I have never been refused a zone transit) so
instead you must use Reims Prunay (LFQA).
Prunay is very friendly, has customs and a good on-airfield
restaurant/bar and hotel and Avgas. You'll find the staff at Prunay
extremely helpful and they are excellent speakers of English. It is one
of my favourite destinations (and, for me, as I'm based in Brussels, not
too far away!).
If you can stay overnight you really should make the effort to visit
Reims itself. In my opinion, Riems is a superb destination on its own
with great architecture, Champagne houses, good hotels and excellent
shopping (so I'm told by my other half!). It's a bit of a trek from the
UK but if combined with a trip to nearby Troyes (LFQB) it makes for an
excellent weekend break.
Best Regards,
Simon Miles,
Builder #508,
Currently flying C172 OO-SEY.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: to build or not to build |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson <rowil@clara.net>
At 2004 05 10 11:41 -0700 asdfa afa df wrote:
>respond
>with how many hours it took to complete your Europa it
>would be greatly appreciated.
Jerry - I'd like to hear any information you receive that adds to the
numbers shown on the Europa Club website. I maintain a table there of
all Europas known to have flown; one of the columns is the hours to
build. You can also download the table as an Excel file to fiddle
about with at your leisure ...
regards
Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson Europa Club Membership Secretary - email for info!
| Europa 435 G-ROWI (670 hours building) PFA #16532
| e-mail <memsec@europaclub.org.uk> website <www.europaclub.org.uk>
Message 8
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--> Europa-List message posted by: James Nelson <europajim@juno.com>
Karl,
The design of the Mono-wheel landing gear produces much stuff
where the air leaves the cowling. This restriction causes the engine
compartment to over heat when on the ground for any length of time. The
Tri gear has no such stuff in the way of the air which is leaving the
engine compartment. Thus, the tri gear remains cool almost to the point
of too cool. Providing enough area (sq inches) to let the air out is
very important. So I separated the two systems. Put the oil cooler
(smaller original oil cooler) on the engine directly so lines can be
connected and nothing has to move about. Provided the oil cooler with
its own air source. The area under the spinner is a good place. So I
did it that way. Then I left the main air duct to provide air only for
the water radiator. The inlet has smoothed inlet to try to prevent
turbulence and get the most air to the radiator. The outlet of the main
duct has a flap which can open up to about 70 degrees from vertical. It
closes up to leave a gap about 1 to 1-1/4" for air to leave the
radiator. (Full width of duct). I think I need to add something to
close it up further. By restricting the exit air, you control the
entering air and thus slow down the air going thru the radiator. BTW, I
made my cooling flap by using the "cut away" from the cowl when preparing
it for instillation. I added two sides to create a channel for the air
to leave controlled or just let it spill over the side (not a good way).
I have my pix in a separate program and I can not figure how to retrieve
them to e-mail. Dumb program when a novice can not retrieve a saved
pix--- I'll find a way and send them to you guys.
Jim
On Tue, 11 May 2004 12:43:34 +0100 "KARL HEINDL" <kheindl@msn.com>
writes:
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "KARL HEINDL" <kheindl@msn.com>
>
>
> Jim,
>
>
> Affirmative, but not sure why the mono cooling would be different.
>
>
> Karl
>
>
> From: James Nelson europajim@juno.com
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling
> Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 20:49:19 -0400
>
> -- Europa-List message posted by: James Nelson europajim@juno.com
>
> Karl,
> Do you have a Mono-wheel?That model seems to have the most
> problems with high temps on the ground.If you have a Tri-Gear, It
> doesn't have cooling problems at all.In fact it runs too cool. I
> don't
> have the shroud for the top of the engine.The issue is getting heat
>
> from the water and oil while taxiing for any time on the ground.
>
> Jim
> N15JN
>
> On Tue, 11 May 2004 01:07:55 +0100 "KARL HEINDL" kheindl@msn.com
> writes:
> -- Europa-List message posted by: "KARL HEINDL" kheindl@msn.com
>
>
> Jim,
>
>
> I am not sure that all that extra work is necessary. I did the
> standard factory installation with staggered radiators, and making
>
> sure that all air from the main scoop goes through and not around
>
> them. I have not had any cooling problems with my 912S, even in
> very
> hot weather. I closed the large Naca scoop in front of the oil
> tank
> with tape, and still no cooling problem. I think that the shroud
> over the top of the 'S' engine is very effective.
>
>
> Karl
>
>
> From: James Nelson europajim@juno.com
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling
> Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 18:39:03 -0400
>
> -- Europa-List message posted by: James Nelson europajim@juno.com
>
>
> Hi Paul,
> I did the smoothing out of the inlet all the way to the radiator.
> I also included a cooling flap at the outlet of the duct. Ifyou
> are
>
> doing the factory thing, make sure that NO air get around the oil
>
> and
> water radiators.The air will go to the path of least resistance.Use
>
>
> the rubber fabric if necessary to blank off areas where the air
> will
> go.
> I went the unique way and redid the cooling system.I have a
> separate
>
> oil cooling radiator (original Europa cooler) that has its own
> duct
>
> inlet.The main large duct is only for the water radiator.It works
>
> very well for my 912 S.I also have some pix if you want to see
> them.
>
>
> Jim Nelson
>
>
> On Mon, 10 May 2004 22:56:39 +0100 Paul Stewart
> europa@pstewart.f2s.com
> writes:
> -- Europa-List message posted by: Paul Stewart
> europa@pstewart.f2s.com
>
> Having read several threads rel;ating to cooling recently esp.
> relating
> to the 914, I'm keen to get this as efficient as possible. I have
>
>
> seen
> several examples offolk smoothing the transition of the lower
> cowling
> air intake onto the lower surface of the cowling itself. Has
> anyone
>
> done
> any more to reduce the sharp edges of the cooling intake as I seem
>
>
> to
> remember it being suggested air flow could get so turbulent as to
>
>
> virtually reverse.If anyone has any pics ofwhat they might have
>
> done, I'd be very grateful.
>
> Regards
>
> Paul
>
> G-GIDY
>
>
> =
>
> =
>
> =
>
> =
>
>
> =
>
> =
>
> =
>
> =
>
>
>
=
>
=
>
=
>
=
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Spar Placement Problem |
--> Europa-List message posted by: DuaneFamly@aol.com
Good day to all,
I just found a problem and wanted some feedback from those more experienced
than myself.
I had already set the angle of incidence of both wings and epoxied both fore
and aft blocks for the wing pins to set in. After the epoxy had set and before
removing the wings, so I could move on to the next phase, I rechecked the
angles and they hadn't moved. They were both right where I had set them.
I just put both wings back on to adjust the aileron travel and noticed that
when the control stick was full left there was an interference. I found that
the port bellcrank was just rubbing against the spar socket mounted on the port
spar. After further investigation I found that about 2-3mm of the shaft of the
port pip pin was visible between the port spar bushing and the bushing in the
cockpit module. And that the pip pin center button would not pop out because
the "balls" were only sticking out halfway from the spar socket. This is with
both 281315 hardened washers installed but without any of the 816L spacer
washers added. As shown in Fig. 10 on pg 27-12.
Thinking that I had failed to insure that the spar was pressed up fully
against the cockpit module while I epoxied the wing pin blocks, I removed both
blocks, but I still cannot get the spar to push up any closer to the make the spar
bush and cockpit module bush contact each other.
Has any other builder seen this situation? Is the fact that the bushes are
not up against each other a major problem? Could this be caused by setting the
angle of incidence? Wouldn't this situation put undue stress on the pip pin?
I am not going to move forward on this problem until I get a sanity check.
Mike Duane A207
Redding, California
XS Conventional Gear
CM & rudder pedals with cables installed. Tailwheel complete. Working on
baggage bay. Conventional gear assembled and soon to be fitted.
Message 10
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" <flyinggpa@comcast.net>
All
I will but in here.
If the Europa is built as the book says, the stainless steel firewall pieces
that cover the opening to the tunnel and the landing gear blocks off the air
flow exactly the same on either model. No difference there. The reason, I
think, that trigear Europas have better cooling is that the lower cowling is
cut away for the nose gear.
Sorry to but in, but I can't see bad info being spread about without saying
something.
Cliff Shaw
1041 Euclid ave.
Edmonds, WA 98020
425 776 5555
flying and loving it.
> Karl,
> The design of the Mono-wheel landing gear produces much stuff
> where the air leaves the cowling. This restriction causes the engine
> compartment to over heat when on the ground for any length of time. The
> Tri gear has no such stuff in the way of the air which is leaving the
> engine compartment. Thus,
Message 11
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Robert Berube" <bberube@tampabay.rr.com>
Cliff,
I think Jim is referring to tri-gears that go thru our shop. We do not use
the firewall sheet metal as shown in the drawings. We put a bulkhead just
aft of the gear cut out. This allows more cooling air to pass thru the
cowling. Most engines, even the 914 tend to run much cooler we have found.
The monowheel suffers with the small opening apparently caused by the
swinging arm stuffing the exiting air from the cowling.
Bob Berube N166BB
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cliff Shaw
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" <flyinggpa@comcast.net>
All
I will but in here.
If the Europa is built as the book says, the stainless steel firewall pieces
that cover the opening to the tunnel and the landing gear blocks off the air
flow exactly the same on either model. No difference there. The reason, I
think, that trigear Europas have better cooling is that the lower cowling is
cut away for the nose gear.
Sorry to but in, but I can't see bad info being spread about without saying
something.
Cliff Shaw
1041 Euclid ave.
Edmonds, WA 98020
425 776 5555
flying and loving it.
> Karl,
> The design of the Mono-wheel landing gear produces much stuff
> where the air leaves the cowling. This restriction causes the engine
> compartment to over heat when on the ground for any length of time. The
> Tri gear has no such stuff in the way of the air which is leaving the
> engine compartment. Thus,
Message 12
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--> Europa-List message posted by: Rocketman <topglock@cox.net>
Robert Berube wrote:
>--> Europa-List message posted by: "Robert Berube" <bberube@tampabay.rr.com>
>
>Cliff,
>I think Jim is referring to tri-gears that go thru our shop. We do not use
>the firewall sheet metal as shown in the drawings. We put a bulkhead just
>aft of the gear cut out. This allows more cooling air to pass thru the
>cowling. Most engines, even the 914 tend to run much cooler we have found.
>The monowheel suffers with the small opening apparently caused by the
>swinging arm stuffing the exiting air from the cowling.
>
>Bob Berube N166BB
>
>
>
Bob,
That makes sense. How do you handle the rudder cables, through the
bulkhead?
--
Jeff - A055
Builders Log: http://www.N55XS.com
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Spar Placement Problem |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
----- Original Message -----
From: <DuaneFamly@aol.com>
Subject: Europa-List: Spar Placement Problem
"| Good day to all,
| I just found a problem and wanted some feedback from those more
experienced than myself.
| I had already set the angle of incidence of both wings and epoxied both
fore
| and aft blocks for the wing pins to set in. After the epoxy had set and
before
| removing the wings, so I could move on to the next phase, I rechecked the
| angles and they hadn't moved. They were both right where I had set them.
| I just put both wings back on to adjust the aileron travel and noticed
that
| when the control stick was full left there was an interference. I found
that
| the port bellcrank was just rubbing against the spar socket mounted on the
port spar. "
Duane,
There IS too much pip-pin showing between your spars and I'm
afraid I can't guess why..................
However, I did have an interference problem between the port beelcrank plate
and the spar 'cup' on that side. I was advised I could easily take a few mm.
off the bellcrank on the interference side and did so, with good results.
Good Luck
Ferg
Message 14
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" <flyinggpa@comcast.net>
Bob
OK , I understand that . I thought the SS was used on every ones plane.
Thanks for letting me in on another "mod". I hate those SS panels.
Cliff Shaw
1041 Euclid ave.
Edmonds, WA 98020
425 776 5555
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Berube" <bberube@tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Cooling
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Robert Berube"
<bberube@tampabay.rr.com>
>
> Cliff,
> I think Jim is referring to tri-gears that go thru our shop. We do not
use
> the firewall sheet metal as shown in the drawings. We put a bulkhead just
> aft of the gear cut out. This allows more cooling air to pass thru the
> cowling. Most engines, even the 914 tend to run much cooler we have
found.
> The monowheel suffers with the small opening apparently caused by the
> swinging arm stuffing the exiting air from the cowling.
>
> Bob Berube N166BB
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cliff Shaw
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cooling
>
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" <flyinggpa@comcast.net>
>
> All
>
> I will but in here.
>
> If the Europa is built as the book says, the stainless steel firewall
pieces
> that cover the opening to the tunnel and the landing gear blocks off the
air
> flow exactly the same on either model. No difference there. The reason,
I
> think, that trigear Europas have better cooling is that the lower cowling
is
> cut away for the nose gear.
>
> Sorry to but in, but I can't see bad info being spread about without
saying
> something.
>
> Cliff Shaw
> 1041 Euclid ave.
> Edmonds, WA 98020
> 425 776 5555
>
> flying and loving it.
>
> > Karl,
> > The design of the Mono-wheel landing gear produces much stuff
> > where the air leaves the cowling. This restriction causes the engine
> > compartment to over heat when on the ground for any length of time. The
> > Tri gear has no such stuff in the way of the air which is leaving the
> > engine compartment. Thus,
>
>
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