Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:08 AM - Re: Honda Europa (Stephan Cassel)
2. 07:27 AM - Re: Honda Europa (tom@tompaul.com)
3. 07:40 AM - Re: Honda Europa (Peter Zutrauen)
4. 08:34 AM - Re: Honda Europa (Fred R. Klein)
5. 11:04 AM - Throttle Cable (Erich Trombley)
6. 11:04 AM - Re: Honda Europa (Gerry Holland)
7. 12:03 PM - Re: Throttle Cable (Gerry Holland)
8. 12:24 PM - Re: Throttle cables (Duncan McFadyean)
9. 12:39 PM - Re: Throttle cables (David Glauser)
10. 01:02 PM - Re: Throttle Cable (Duncan McFadyean)
11. 03:00 PM - Re: Honda Europa (Rowland Carson)
12. 03:27 PM - Re: Honda Europa (tom@tompaul.com)
13. 05:18 PM - Alternative Engines (David Simenauer)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Honda Europa |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Stephan Cassel" <cassel@sensewave.com>
Hi Rob,
Honda Engine. Very interesting!! Do you have more information?
Model, weight, consumption
Thanks in advanced
Regards
Stephan Cassel
#556
> --> Europa-List message posted by: RobNeils@aimcomm.com (Rob Neils)
>
> Alex Bowman has flown ~10 hours with no problems with his Honda
> firewall forward installation.
>
> He's getting ~ 2,000 feet/min climb!
>
> He'll be at Arlington.
>
> Rob Neils
>
> Spokane, WA
>
> A162 Tri-gear MG
>
>
> _-
========================================================================
> _-
========================================================================
> _-
========================================================================
> _-
========================================================================
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Honda Europa |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "tom@tompaul.com" <tom@tompaul.com>
This sounds very interesting. I would like to know more. Was it a
troublesome custom instal? What reduction unit? Which engine? less
expensive than a rotax, i assume, but is it safe? What are the
drawbacks? many questions...
Inquiring minds want to know.
tom paul
nyc
60% done xs mono on the way back to flight crafters.
On May 18, 2004, at 2:09 AM, Rob Neils wrote:
> --> Europa-List message posted by: RobNeils@aimcomm.com (Rob Neils)
>
> Alex Bowman has flown ~10 hours with no problems with his Honda
> firewall forward installation.
>
> He's getting ~ 2,000 feet/min climb!
>
> He'll be at Arlington.
>
> Rob Neils
>
> Spokane, WA
>
> A162 Tri-gear MG
>
>
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> >
>
>
Message 3
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Zutrauen" <peterz@zutrasoft.com>
The main drawback is weight - even more than the neat wilksch diesel.
The Honda CAM-125 is a very heavy 247 pounds as per their website spec
sheet at http://www.firewall.ca/main.html (one their products page)
there are also some installation pics of Alex's installation on their
photo gallery page. They mentioned that they moved the engine further
back than the standard rotax installation to get within CG limits.
Alex sure does have a slick aero package from the pics!
Cheers,
Pete
A239
-----Original Message-----
From: tom@tompaul.com [mailto:tom@tompaul.com]
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Honda Europa
--> Europa-List message posted by: "tom@tompaul.com" <tom@tompaul.com>
This sounds very interesting. I would like to know more. Was it a
troublesome custom instal? What reduction unit? Which engine? less
expensive than a rotax, i assume, but is it safe? What are the
drawbacks? many questions...
Inquiring minds want to know.
tom paul
nyc
60% done xs mono on the way back to flight crafters.
On May 18, 2004, at 2:09 AM, Rob Neils wrote:
> --> Europa-List message posted by: RobNeils@aimcomm.com (Rob Neils)
>
> Alex Bowman has flown ~10 hours with no problems with his Honda
> firewall forward installation.
>
> He's getting ~ 2,000 feet/min climb!
>
> He'll be at Arlington.
>
> Rob Neils
>
> Spokane, WA
>
> A162 Tri-gear MG
>
>
> _-
>
=======================================================================
> _-
>
=======================================================================
> _-
>
=======================================================================
> _-
>
=======================================================================
> >
>
>
==
==
==
==
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Honda Europa |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred R. Klein" <fklein@orcasonline.com>
on 5/18/04 6:22 AM, tom@tompaul.com at tom@tompaul.com wrote:
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "tom@tompaul.com" <tom@tompaul.com>
>
> This sounds very interesting. I would like to know more. Was it a
> troublesome custom instal? What reduction unit? Which engine? less
> expensive than a rotax, i assume, but is it safe? What are the
> drawbacks? many questions...
>
> Inquiring minds want to know.
>
> tom paul
> nyc
> 60% done xs mono on the way back to flight crafters.
>
>
> On May 18, 2004, at 2:09 AM, Rob Neils wrote:
>
>> --> Europa-List message posted by: RobNeils@aimcomm.com (Rob Neils)
>>
>> Alex Bowman has flown ~10 hours with no problems with his Honda
>> firewall forward installation.
>>
>> He's getting ~ 2,000 feet/min climb!
>>
>> He'll be at Arlington.
>>
>> Rob Neils
>>
>> Spokane, WA
>>
>> A162 Tri-gear MG
>>
>>
>> _-
>> =======================================================================
>> _-
>> =======================================================================
>> _-
>> =======================================================================
>> _-
>> =======================================================================
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
Hi all...this is an intriging thread! Is Alex Bowman's XS a mono or
tri-gear?
Message 5
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Erich Trombley" <erichdtrombley@juno.com>
A simple modification I made to the standard Europa throttle cable was to throw
the cable in the trash. You can recover the sheath and use it but the flexible
cable must go. Using a flexible cable in the above application doesn't seem
to make much sense. Cables are intended for tension applications not compression.
Given the design of the standard throttle housing, kinking of the cable
is permissible, although certainly not desirable. If you recall some time ago
a Europa was lost due to this very issue. On an attempted go-around the pilot
rapidly advanced the throttle causing the cable to kink within the housing
limiting the throttle command. The springs on the carb installed by Rotax are
designed to advance the carbs to "High/Full" throttle in the unlikely event
of a cable failure. The springs were never intended to pull the cable through
the sheathing which is what is required to some extent in the Europa design.
I have utilized a Bowden cable of similar diameter which is specifically designed
for push/pull applications. For those not familiar with a Bowden cable it
is basically a semi-flexible solid wire cable. I ordered mine from ACS p/n 05-1550.
One end of the cable will need to be modified to accept the Europa throttle
housing/lever. I bent the end of the wire over a cable fitting, ACS p/n
CF2700, to form an eye and Reduxed the wire to the cable fitting. This allows
a bolt to go through the wire end and attach to the throttle lever. The other
end of the cable is attached to the carbs in the original manner.
With the above setup the friction lock can be set to provide more friction than
is possible if using the supplied Europa cable, since the carb return spring
is no longer assisting the advance of the flexible cable and kinking is of no
concern. The throttle stays right were it is set. In fact I rather like the
Europa throttle lever with this configuration as the RPM can set be very precisely.
I have 150 hours on the plane and it has worked flawlessly since day one.
Erich Trombley
N28ET Classic Mono 914
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Honda Europa |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Gerry Holland <gnholland@onetel.com>
Peter Hi!
> The Honda CAM-125 is a very heavy 247 pounds as per their website spec
> sheet at http://www.firewall.ca/main.html
Thanks for the link.
It looks a really neat package and they have done well to get down to
231lbs.
The Cowlings and obvious attention to detail in this installation are a
great credit to Alex. It looks great.
Regards
Gerry
Europa 384 G-FIZY
Trigear with Rotax 912 and Arplast CS Prop.
Engine and Prop getting near to starting.
Painting completed. Just vinyl design scheme to be added.
Completing Wiring to Panel.
Includes Dynon EFIS, KMD 150, Icom A-200 and SL70 Transponder. AoA Fitted.
Shoulder Width Mod completed. Ideas for Heater Unit still ideas!
http://www.g-fizy.com
+44 7808 402404
gnholland@onetel.com
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Throttle Cable |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Gerry Holland <gnholland@onetel.com>
Eric Hi!
Thanks for the information regarding Throttle action via cable.
Sounds a very viable option.
Many Thanks
Gerry
Europa 384 G-FIZY
Trigear with Rotax 912 and Arplast CS Prop.
Engine and Prop getting near to starting.
Painting completed. Just vinyl design scheme to be added.
Completing Wiring to Panel.
Includes Dynon EFIS, KMD 150, Icom A-200 and SL70 Transponder. AoA Fitted.
Shoulder Width Mod completed. Ideas for Heater Unit still ideas!
http://www.g-fizy.com
+44 7808 402404
gnholland@onetel.com
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Throttle cables |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
I've already tried a vernier type throttle arrangement. It was a pain and
not as comfortable as the Factory style. I had thought that the Factory
version would not be capable of very fine adjustment, but in use this has
not been a noticeable effect.
The problem with the vernier was that its internal mechanism allows the
handle to screw in and out along a loose spiral of thick wire (a coil
spring, basically). This spiral has some springiness and give, which allows
the carb springs to pull the throttles open slightly against this spiral.
The net effect is that the throttle has to be held fully closed, otherwise
very flat landings result.
Of course, the throttle could be wound-out on the spring to a fully closed
position, but as soon as the aircraft touched down it would slip and the
throttle open slightly, making for landings of great interest (to outside
observers).
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Hagar" <hagargs@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Throttle cables
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Steve Hagar" <hagargs@earthlink.net>
>
> I went a different route, I dispensed with the built up throttle box. I
> built up the center console slightly and installed a verneir type
throttle.
> Hence no throttle creep. The single cable goes up to the firewall and I
> manufactured a single to dual cable yoke the resides on the face of the
> firewall. The double cables are now extremely short and all of the
working
> mechanism is now on the front face of the firewall. There is nothing
> pertaining to the throttle that needs to be worked on under the console or
> in the wheel. It is really clean and open down there. I did this after
> seeing an installation that Phoenix Composites did on another Europa. I
> haven't put this in service yet to operationally check it out. Busy
working
> on a trailer to bring the plane somewhere where I start it up and do
engine
> checks.
>
> Steve Hagar
> A143
> Mesa, AZ
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Duncan McFadyean <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
> > To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> > Date: 5/17/04 11:53:43 AM
> > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Throttle cables
> >
> > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean"
> <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
> >
> > The problem I had was getting the lever to turn on the nylon at all
(this
> > was with nylon washers cut from sheet).
> > Instead, the steel washers preferred to turn under the head of the nuts.
> > Solved by welding the nuts to the washers and Loctiting the nuts.
> >
> > So far so good; just hoping the whole thing doesn't have to be adjusted
> too
> > frequently. Emergency wooden wedge (2.5g weight) carried in cockpit to
> > prevent throttle creep, if needed!
> >
> > Duncan McF.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Graham Singleton" <graham@gflight.f9.co.uk>
> > To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Europa-List: Throttle cables
> >
> >
> > > --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton
> > <graham@gflight.f9.co.uk>
> > >
> > > At 23:56 16/05/2004 -0700, you wrote:
> > > >From: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
> > > >Subject: Re: Europa-List: Throttle cables
> > > >
> > > >--> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean"
> > > ><ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
> > > >
> > > >Changed mine for teflon lined outers with Stainless inners.
> > >
> > >
> > > >Getting the standard throttle box to work properly is another story.
> > > >
> > > >Duncan McF.
> > >
> > > Duncan
> > > One way to solve that last point is to accurately restrain the
friction
> > > pads, scrap the nylon washers and use nylon sheet and devise a way to
> stop
> > > it turning randomly. Square pieces sliding (sideways) on the side of
the
> > > throttle box works.
> > > Graham
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 9
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "David Glauser" <david.glauser@xpsystems.com>
It was the throttle! Honest!
(Sorry, Duncan - couldn't resist. No insult intended.)
dg
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Duncan
McFadyean
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Throttle cables
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean"
--> <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
I've already tried a vernier type throttle arrangement. It was a pain
and not as comfortable as the Factory style. I had thought that the
Factory version would not be capable of very fine adjustment, but in use
this has not been a noticeable effect.
The problem with the vernier was that its internal mechanism allows the
handle to screw in and out along a loose spiral of thick wire (a coil
spring, basically). This spiral has some springiness and give, which
allows the carb springs to pull the throttles open slightly against this
spiral.
The net effect is that the throttle has to be held fully closed,
otherwise very flat landings result.
Of course, the throttle could be wound-out on the spring to a fully
closed position, but as soon as the aircraft touched down it would slip
and the throttle open slightly, making for landings of great interest
(to outside observers).
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Hagar" <hagargs@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Throttle cables
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Steve Hagar"
> --> <hagargs@earthlink.net>
>
> I went a different route, I dispensed with the built up throttle box.
> I built up the center console slightly and installed a verneir type
throttle.
> Hence no throttle creep. The single cable goes up to the firewall and
> I manufactured a single to dual cable yoke the resides on the face of
> the firewall. The double cables are now extremely short and all of
> the
working
> mechanism is now on the front face of the firewall. There is nothing
> pertaining to the throttle that needs to be worked on under the
> console or in the wheel. It is really clean and open down there. I
> did this after seeing an installation that Phoenix Composites did on
> another Europa. I haven't put this in service yet to operationally
> check it out. Busy
working
> on a trailer to bring the plane somewhere where I start it up and do
engine
> checks.
>
> Steve Hagar
> A143
> Mesa, AZ
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Duncan McFadyean <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
> > To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> > Date: 5/17/04 11:53:43 AM
> > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Throttle cables
> >
> > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean"
> <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
> >
> > The problem I had was getting the lever to turn on the nylon at all
(this
> > was with nylon washers cut from sheet).
> > Instead, the steel washers preferred to turn under the head of the
nuts.
> > Solved by welding the nuts to the washers and Loctiting the nuts.
> >
> > So far so good; just hoping the whole thing doesn't have to be
> > adjusted
> too
> > frequently. Emergency wooden wedge (2.5g weight) carried in cockpit
> > to prevent throttle creep, if needed!
> >
> > Duncan McF.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Graham Singleton" <graham@gflight.f9.co.uk>
> > To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Europa-List: Throttle cables
> >
> >
> > > --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton
> > <graham@gflight.f9.co.uk>
> > >
> > > At 23:56 16/05/2004 -0700, you wrote:
> > > >From: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
> > > >Subject: Re: Europa-List: Throttle cables
> > > >
> > > >--> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean"
> > > ><ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
> > > >
> > > >Changed mine for teflon lined outers with Stainless inners.
> > >
> > >
> > > >Getting the standard throttle box to work properly is another
story.
> > > >
> > > >Duncan McF.
> > >
> > > Duncan
> > > One way to solve that last point is to accurately restrain the
friction
> > > pads, scrap the nylon washers and use nylon sheet and devise a way
> > > to
> stop
> > > it turning randomly. Square pieces sliding (sideways) on the side
> > > of
the
> > > throttle box works.
> > > Graham
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
==
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
==
==
==
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Throttle Cable |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
As I understand it, the potential problem with the Factory cables results
from lack of lubrication and too much friction developing in the wrong
place.
An advantage of the Teflon lined version (with s/s cables) is that the same
level of friction is never going to develop.
Your point about buckling of the unsupported ends is a concern and I tried
to impregnate these with resin to stiffen them up. But failed (probably
didn't get the cable internally clean enough).
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Erich Trombley" <erichdtrombley@juno.com>
Subject: Europa-List: Throttle Cable
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Erich Trombley"
<erichdtrombley@juno.com>
>
>
> A simple modification I made to the standard Europa throttle cable was to
throw the cable in the trash. You can recover the sheath and use it but the
flexible cable must go. Using a flexible cable in the above application
doesn't seem to make much sense. Cables are intended for tension
applications not compression. Given the design of the standard throttle
housing, kinking of the cable is permissible, although certainly not
desirable. If you recall some time ago a Europa was lost due to this very
issue. On an attempted go-around the pilot rapidly advanced the throttle
causing the cable to kink within the housing limiting the throttle command.
The springs on the carb installed by Rotax are designed to advance the carbs
to "High/Full" throttle in the unlikely event of a cable failure. The
springs were never intended to pull the cable through the sheathing which is
what is required to some extent in the Europa design.
>
> I have utilized a Bowden cable of similar diameter which is specifically
designed for push/pull applications. For those not familiar with a Bowden
cable it is basically a semi-flexible solid wire cable. I ordered mine from
ACS p/n 05-1550. One end of the cable will need to be modified to accept
the Europa throttle housing/lever. I bent the end of the wire over a cable
fitting, ACS p/n CF2700, to form an eye and Reduxed the wire to the cable
fitting. This allows a bolt to go through the wire end and attach to the
throttle lever. The other end of the cable is attached to the carbs in the
original manner.
>
> With the above setup the friction lock can be set to provide more friction
than is possible if using the supplied Europa cable, since the carb return
spring is no longer assisting the advance of the flexible cable and kinking
is of no concern. The throttle stays right were it is set. In fact I
rather like the Europa throttle lever with this configuration as the RPM can
set be very precisely. I have 150 hours on the plane and it has worked
flawlessly since day one.
>
> Erich Trombley
> N28ET Classic Mono 914
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Honda Europa |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson <rowil@clara.net>
At 2004 05 17 23:09 -0700 Rob Neils wrote:
>Alex Bowman has flown ~10 hours with no problems with his Honda
>firewall forward installation
Rob - do you know, by any chance, what prop he's using, or the empty
weight of the aircraft? And to be really picky, how many hours did it
take to build?
All data input welcome - see the collected results on the Europa Club
web pages!
regards
Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson Europa Club Membership Secretary - email for info!
| Europa 435 G-ROWI (680 hours building) PFA #16532
| e-mail <memsec@europaclub.org.uk> website <www.europaclub.org.uk>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Honda Europa |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "tom@tompaul.com" <tom@tompaul.com>
It is a mono. see it here:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/RobNeils@aimcomm.com.05.16.2004/
index.html
This is intriguing. i like the price and the power, but it does cut
into the useful load a bit. What are the other drawbacks to the added
weight? I wonder how complicated fitting it is, as compared with a 912
with a factory (europa) fwf kit.
Let's keep this thread going. i don't need and engine for a while yet,
but this is very interesting.
tom paul
On May 18, 2004, at 12:38 PM, Fred R. Klein wrote:
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred R. Klein"
> <fklein@orcasonline.com>
>
> on 5/18/04 6:22 AM, tom@tompaul.com at tom@tompaul.com wrote:
>
>> --> Europa-List message posted by: "tom@tompaul.com" <tom@tompaul.com>
>>
>> This sounds very interesting. I would like to know more. Was it a
>> troublesome custom instal? What reduction unit? Which engine? less
>> expensive than a rotax, i assume, but is it safe? What are the
>> drawbacks? many questions...
>>
>> Inquiring minds want to know.
>>
>> tom paul
>> nyc
>> 60% done xs mono on the way back to flight crafters.
>>
>>
>> On May 18, 2004, at 2:09 AM, Rob Neils wrote:
>>
>>> --> Europa-List message posted by: RobNeils@aimcomm.com (Rob Neils)
>>>
>>> Alex Bowman has flown ~10 hours with no problems with his Honda
>>> firewall forward installation.
>>>
>>> He's getting ~ 2,000 feet/min climb!
>>>
>>> He'll be at Arlington.
>>>
>>> Rob Neils
>>>
>>> Spokane, WA
>>>
>>> A162 Tri-gear MG
>>>
>>>
>>> _-
>>> =====================================================================
>>> ==
>>> _-
>>> =====================================================================
>>> ==
>>> _-
>>> =====================================================================
>>> ==
>>> _-
>>> =====================================================================
>>> ==
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> Hi all...this is an intriging thread! Is Alex Bowman's XS a mono or
> tri-gear?
>
>
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
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Message 13
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| Subject: | Alternative Engines |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "David Simenauer" <dsimenauer@cox.net>
Since there seems to be a lot of interest in the Honda engine you may also want to check out www.ramengines.com Here you will find information on a Subaru conversion. Go to the album and you will see a Europa with a Subaru engine.
Dave Simenauer
A101
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