Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:09 AM - Re: europa handling with subaru (Neville Eyre)
2. 05:06 AM - Re: Seats (Kingsley Hurst)
3. 07:04 AM - Re: europa handling with subaru (Runnymede73@aol.com)
4. 07:40 AM - 912S, Warp Drive FP, fuel flow meter (Norbert.P.Hoffmann@t-online.de (Norbert P. Hoffmann))
5. 08:53 AM - Re: europa handling with subaru (tom@tompaul.com)
6. 11:23 AM - Re: Seats (Joe Proctor)
7. 11:46 AM - Re: Seats (Gerry Holland)
8. 12:09 PM - Re: Seats (Jeff Roberts)
9. 12:22 PM - Re: Seats (Rocketman)
10. 12:28 PM - Re: Seats (Fergus Kyle)
11. 01:02 PM - Re: europa handling with subaru (Frank Wood)
12. 04:08 PM - Re: Seats (Kingsley Hurst)
13. 04:38 PM - Re: Seats (Tony Renshaw)
14. 05:27 PM - Re: Seats (Cliff Shaw)
15. 10:46 PM - Re: Seats (R.C.Harrison)
16. 11:05 PM - Re: europa handling with subaru (R.C.Harrison)
Message 1
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| Subject: | europa handling with subaru |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Neville Eyre" <neville@europa-aircraft.com>
Hi,
Perhaps my use of the word''messes'' was not well thought out, ''spoils'' would
better describe the outcome of fitting a heavier powerplant ?
As you have discovered, the Europa handles just about better than any other aeroplane
out there [as I have often been told by people who have flown MANY more
types than myself] jump out of yours and into a Rotax powered example, and do
a direct comparison.
The late [ and great] Pete Clark, who did most all of the spin tests, used words
that are certainly unprintable on this Forum to describe the effect of the Subaru
installation on the finer points of the aircraft's handling ! Pete was all
for putting more power in it [ bigger is better, too much was just enough]
was his thinking, I know he prefered the Rotax powered examples.
Nothing wrong with the Subaru, exellent piece of engineering.
Cheers,
Nev.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of GLENN
CROWDER
Subject: Europa-List: europa handling with subaru
--> Europa-List message posted by: "GLENN CROWDER" <gcrowder2@hotmail.com>
Hey Neville!
Your comment that "the increased polar moment of inertia totally messes
up the
a very fine handling aeroplane" does not match my observations at all. The
Subaru
powered Europa seems very light and lively to me. My hangar mate with a
O-320
powered Mustang II has flown the Europa several times and has commented that
the
handling is quite a bit lighter than his plane, both in roll and pitch. I
have flown his
plane also and while his aileron roll and pitch forces are higher, they are
not heavy
by any means. My instructor/test pilot who has test piloted hundreds of
newly
finished experimentals commented on how light the handling was and thought
it was
the best handling experimental he had flown although certainly not the
fastest.
He flies a Thorp T-18. I also had him do a complete stall series, flaps up
and down including some spin entries and noted no issues. This was after
someone on the list reported that his Europa would start to roll under on a
flaps down approach stall. I have done flaps down stalls myself
and only get a small wing break sometimes to the left, sometimes to the
right, release on
back stick instantly arrests the stall.
The one thing I have noticed when flying with a passenger is the ease of
landing. When
landing solo, after touching the tail first, I always seem to get one small
bounce on the main
before sticking down, with a passenger as soon as the main wheel touches it
sticks and
stays down. Roll out seems more stable as well. I've only flown on paved
runways so I can't
comment on grass field landing behaviour.
One thing I really like about the Europa is that I can set the pitch trim
in one spot for
touch and goes and leave it alone for every part of the pattern. On
downwind, just reduce
power and slowly drop the flaps, the plane automatically seems to slow down
to just the
right speed (about 65 mph) with no pitch up as flaps are lowered. The last
time I
flew a Cessna, I remember constantly retrimming around the pattern,
particularly forcing
the nose down on flap application. On the Europa, the only time I change
the trim is
when going to cruise speeds. Cheers!
Glenn Crowder
Watch the online reality show Mixed Messages with a friend and enter to win
a trip to NY
http://www.msnmessenger-download.click-url.com/go/onm00200497ave/direct/01/
Message 2
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" <hurstkr@growzone.com.au>
Alfred Buess wrote:-
> Some week ago I sent drawings and pictures of my Europa XS cockpit
> interior to Oregon Aero . . . . . . . .As soon as I will be able to trial
fit them, I will let
> the forum know how it looks and feels.
Thank you Alfred
Regards
Kingsley
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: europa handling with subaru |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Runnymede73@aol.com
whatever happened to the BMW motorbike engine installation?
i think one is flying in switzerland.
that gave 80+ horsepower. the only snag might be if one cylinder went down
in flight. however the german firm who make the gearbox also convert the heads
to 2 plugs
rgds
runnymede
Message 4
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| Subject: | 912S, Warp Drive FP, fuel flow meter |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Norbert.P.Hoffmann@t-online.de (Norbert P. Hoffmann)
D-EUPA is short before receiving its final airworthines certificate. However,
German officials would like to see fuel consumption figures for different
airspeeds (90, 100, 110, 120, 130 kts). Since D-EUPA does not have a fuel
flow meter, numbers from a similar Europa will be accepted.
Therefore I'm looking for a kind soul with a Europa equipped with a 912S, a
Warp Drive fixed pitch propeller, and a fuel flow meter who could help me in
getting the above mentioned set of numbers.
Any help is appreciated!
Norbert
D-EUPA
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: europa handling with subaru |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "tom@tompaul.com" <tom@tompaul.com>
this is a very interesting thread. the props, the engine, the
handling, the weights... it seems the europa has many personalities,
depending on the powertrain combination chosen. I am at least a year
away from needing an engine, i think, so, with all my options open
still, it is with great interest that i research the various
possibilities. The subaru seems attractive because of the power, as
does the cam 125 for the same reason. But i hate the thought of
"spoiling" the fine Europa handling. I don't really understand how
this happens with polar inertia, blah, blah, but i trust that there is
truth to it. I guess it has to do with the hard-to-move effect of a
hanging a heavy weight at the end of the stick.
The Rospeller prop system seems wonderful but, with the dollar to euro
ratio currently, it is very expensive. around US$8k it seems, for the
best package.
The BMW is too anemic, no? 80hp? I know Kim Prout has a wonderfully
performing machine with a standard 912, so it CAN work, but people
don't seem to be getting the factory numbers even with a 914. What
gives with this? The factory claims a 170 knot cruise, but the figures
reported from flying aircraft tend to hover around 140kts.
I am leaning toward the 912S, i guess, since i live at sea level and
don't have a surplus of the green stuff, though i am very open to other
options. I would love to stuff 150 hp in there somehow, but the weight
of most engines seem very problematic. I spoke with a gentleman from
texas who is fitting an 0-200. Has this been done before? Is it a
good option?
So many choices. Let's keep this thread going.
Best,
Tom Paul
On Jun 17, 2004, at 4:04 PM, Runnymede73@aol.com wrote:
> --> Europa-List message posted by: Runnymede73@aol.com
>
> whatever happened to the BMW motorbike engine installation?
> i think one is flying in switzerland.
> that gave 80+ horsepower. the only snag might be if one cylinder went
> down
> in flight. however the german firm who make the gearbox also convert
> the heads
> to 2 plugs
> rgds
> runnymede
>
>
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> >
>
>
Message 6
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Joe Proctor" <pjoe2@qwest.net>
Hi All,
Having just brought my kit home and living very close to OregonAero I
stopped by their factory to talk about the seats and they want me to bring
the cockpit module by so they can make some accurate seat templates. Can
anyone tell me if I need to take anything else out to them to help make it
more functional model.
Thanks,
Joe
pjoe2@qwest.net
503-654-5805
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kingsley Hurst" <hurstkr@growzone.com.au>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Seats
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst"
<hurstkr@growzone.com.au>
>
> Alfred Buess wrote:-
> > Some week ago I sent drawings and pictures of my Europa XS cockpit
> > interior to Oregon Aero . . . . . . . .As soon as I will be able to
trial
> fit them, I will let
> > the forum know how it looks and feels.
>
> Thank you Alfred
>
> Regards
> Kingsley
>
>
Message 7
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--> Europa-List message posted by: Gerry Holland <gnholland@onetel.com>
Joe Hi!
> They want me to bring the cockpit module by so they can make some accurate >
>
> seat templates. Can anyone tell me if I need to take anything else out to them
> to help make it more functional model.
You may need to point out where the Port Pip Pin and Starboard Pins are
located. The holes are already in place for guidance.
Cant think of anything else.
Regards
Gerry
Europa 384 G-FIZY
Trigear with Rotax 912 and Arplast CS Prop.
Engine and Prop getting near to starting.
Painting completed. Just vinyl design scheme to be added.
Completing Wiring to Panel. Starting on some interior finish.
Includes Dynon EFIS, KMD 150, Icom A-200 and SL70 Transponder. AoA Fitted.
Shoulder Width Mod completed. Heater Unit ready to build.
http://www.g-fizy.com
+44 7808 402404
gnholland@onetel.com
Message 8
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--> Europa-List message posted by: Jeff Roberts <jeff@rmmm.net>
on 6/17/04 1:23 PM, Joe Proctor at pjoe2@qwest.net wrote:
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Joe Proctor" <pjoe2@qwest.net>
>
> Hi All,
> Having just brought my kit home and living very close to OregonAero I
> stopped by their factory to talk about the seats and they want me to bring
> the cockpit module by so they can make some accurate seat templates. Can
> anyone tell me if I need to take anything else out to them to help make it
> more functional model.
> Thanks,
> Joe
> pjoe2@qwest.net
> 503-654-5805
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kingsley Hurst" <hurstkr@growzone.com.au>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Seats
>
>
>> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst"
> <hurstkr@growzone.com.au>
>>
>> Alfred Buess wrote:-
>>> Some week ago I sent drawings and pictures of my Europa XS cockpit
>>> interior to Oregon Aero . . . . . . . .As soon as I will be able to
> trial
>> fit them, I will let
>>> the forum know how it looks and feels.
>>
>> Thank you Alfred
>>
>> Regards
>> Kingsley
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Joe,
Please keep us all advised on your progress. I know I would like to use
there seats. Good luck.
Jeff
A258
Message 9
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--> Europa-List message posted by: Rocketman <topglock@cox.net>
Joe Proctor wrote:
>Hi All,
>Having just brought my kit home and living very close to OregonAero I
>stopped by their factory to talk about the seats and they want me to bring
>the cockpit module by so they can make some accurate seat templates. Can
>anyone tell me if I need to take anything else out to them to help make it
>more functional model.
>Thanks,
>
Joe,
Make sure they understand that there will be a "floor" over the torque
tube tunnel. And, be sure to let us know what they say, as many of us
would probably be interested in what they have to offer...
--
Jeff - A055
N55XS Builders Log: http://www.n55xs.com
Waiting on Europa for delivery of the Tri-Gear components. Control surfaces are
in the paint shop...
Message 10
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Proctor" <pjoe2@qwest.net>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Seats
| --> Europa-List message posted by: "Joe Proctor" <pjoe2@qwest.net>
|
| Hi All,
| Having just brought my kit home and living very close to OregonAero I
| stopped by their factory to talk about the seats and they want me to bring
| the cockpit module by so they can make some accurate seat templates. Can
| anyone tell me if I need to take anything else out to them to help make it
| more functional model.
| Thanks,
| Joe
| pjoe2@qwest.net
| 503-654-5805
Joe,
Thanks for asking! The only thing you might impress on them is
that yours is an "XS" cockpit. Earlier versions had wider tunnels between
the seats and may require different widths.
Cheers, Ferg
A064
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: europa handling with subaru |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Frank Wood <fswood@shaw.ca>
Hi Tom,You may want to have a look at the Jabiru 3300,I have one in my
Classic tri-gear and Mr Harrison in the U.K. has one, and,I am sure there
are a few others.It is not turbo charged like the 914 Rotax,but I am lead to
believe,that the HP is better at lower altitudes (below 10,000) and it does
not have reduction gearing being a direct drive.It is an aluminium block and
heads air cooled dedicated aircraft engine,there had been some cooling
issues with earlier models but those problems have been corrected to the
best of my knowlege.I do not know how they compare in price but it is worth
looking into.
----- Original Message -----
From: <tom@tompaul.com>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: europa handling with subaru
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "tom@tompaul.com" <tom@tompaul.com>
>
> this is a very interesting thread. the props, the engine, the
> handling, the weights... it seems the europa has many personalities,
> depending on the powertrain combination chosen. I am at least a year
> away from needing an engine, i think, so, with all my options open
> still, it is with great interest that i research the various
> possibilities. The subaru seems attractive because of the power, as
> does the cam 125 for the same reason. But i hate the thought of
> "spoiling" the fine Europa handling. I don't really understand how
> this happens with polar inertia, blah, blah, but i trust that there is
> truth to it. I guess it has to do with the hard-to-move effect of a
> hanging a heavy weight at the end of the stick.
>
> The Rospeller prop system seems wonderful but, with the dollar to euro
> ratio currently, it is very expensive. around US$8k it seems, for the
> best package.
>
> The BMW is too anemic, no? 80hp? I know Kim Prout has a wonderfully
> performing machine with a standard 912, so it CAN work, but people
> don't seem to be getting the factory numbers even with a 914. What
> gives with this? The factory claims a 170 knot cruise, but the figures
> reported from flying aircraft tend to hover around 140kts.
> I am leaning toward the 912S, i guess, since i live at sea level and
> don't have a surplus of the green stuff, though i am very open to other
> options. I would love to stuff 150 hp in there somehow, but the weight
> of most engines seem very problematic. I spoke with a gentleman from
> texas who is fitting an 0-200. Has this been done before? Is it a
> good option?
> So many choices. Let's keep this thread going.
>
> Best,
> Tom Paul
>
>
> On Jun 17, 2004, at 4:04 PM, Runnymede73@aol.com wrote:
>
> > --> Europa-List message posted by: Runnymede73@aol.com
> >
> > whatever happened to the BMW motorbike engine installation?
> > i think one is flying in switzerland.
> > that gave 80+ horsepower. the only snag might be if one cylinder went
> > down
> > in flight. however the german firm who make the gearbox also convert
> > the heads
> > to 2 plugs
> > rgds
> > runnymede
> >
> >
> > _-
> > =======================================================================
> > _-
> > =======================================================================
> > _-
> > =======================================================================
> > _-
> > =======================================================================
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 12
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" <hurstkr@growzone.com.au>
Joe Proctor wrote:-
> Having just brought my kit home and living very close to OregonAero I
> . . . . . . . Can anyone tell me if I need to take anything else out
to them
> to help make it more functional model.
Joe,
In addition to the comments already made by Jeff (Rocketman) and Ferg
Kyle, for Monos especially, the height of the seat is important.
Therefore, Oregon Aero might like to take into consideration the need to
be able to adjust the height for people of different statures.
Consequently, it may be worth while suggesting to David Esterline
(Oregon Aero) that he checks this aspect out when he goes to Oshkosh
next month.
Thank you for making your module available.
Regards
Kingsley Hurst
Mono Classic 281 in Oz.
Message 13
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--> Europa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw@optusnet.com.au>
Gidday,
My 2 cents worth...................not very many still have old modules
without seats, but I do, and me mate. So, if a seat combination can be made
up by Oregon that allows the slightly narrower option too for us guys, well
we would probably happily tag along for the ride. I know this raises
potentially a problem, but happy to help with dims.
Reg
Tony Renshaw
Sydney Australia
Classic 236 B.B. Taildragger
Tail, Wings, Ailerons, Flaps Complete and Connected
Lower Fuse in Jig, Tail Torque Tube installed
Mass Balance assembly installed and deflections sorted
Roof Panel between doors completed.
Photos at:
http://forum.okhuijsen.org/modules.php?set_albumName=TonyR&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php&PHPSESSID=902b69917a45f8b18ac84fe3f85a704b
Intended Engine: 912S CS prop (model undecided)
Instrumentation: Undecided
Message 14
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" <flyinggpa@comcast.net>
Joe
Besides the wing pins, the seat belt might be of some concern. In my plane I
did not make any allowance for the seat belts in the shape of the seat
bottom, and it seem to work OK. I don't know what they would design.
I am sure they know, but it would not hurt to remind them that the height of
the seat must be adjustable so your head is 1" below the door window. I add
sheets of pink foam under the foam seat cushions in Wile E. Coyote.
Cliff Shaw
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Joe Proctor" <pjoe2@qwest.net>
>
> Hi All,
> Having just brought my kit home and living very close to OregonAero I
Message 15
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@ukonline.co.uk>
Hi! Joe.
The main thing you'll need to advise is the maximum thickness of the seat in
all directions. Otherwise with long torso you will be rubbing your head on
the overhead door . To establish that you need some dimensions from a
completed aircraft.
For a variable facility and tall/long people it is wise to have a removable
under cushion. I have a piece of 2" dynafoam which just has to be removed
from under my BMW Series three foam seat bases.
Also you will need to maintain access to the fuel switch if it is installed
lower P1 right as suggested in the build manual.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MK1/XS Cockpit Module/Jabiru 3300
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Proctor" <pjoe2@qwest.net>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Seats
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Joe Proctor" <pjoe2@qwest.net>
>
> Hi All,
> Having just brought my kit home and living very close to OregonAero I
> stopped by their factory to talk about the seats and they want me to bring
> the cockpit module by so they can make some accurate seat templates. Can
> anyone tell me if I need to take anything else out to them to help make it
> more functional model.
> Thanks,
> Joe
> pjoe2@qwest.net
> 503-654-5805
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kingsley Hurst" <hurstkr@growzone.com.au>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Seats
>
>
> > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst"
> <hurstkr@growzone.com.au>
> >
> > Alfred Buess wrote:-
> > > Some week ago I sent drawings and pictures of my Europa XS cockpit
> > > interior to Oregon Aero . . . . . . . .As soon as I will be able to
> trial
> > fit them, I will let
> > > the forum know how it looks and feels.
> >
> > Thank you Alfred
> >
> > Regards
> > Kingsley
> >
> >
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: europa handling with subaru |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@ukonline.co.uk>
Hi! Tom
Just picked this thread up from the forum.
I have a 3300 Jab.
Had major challenges with the cooling but have it mostly sorted out now. I
have a three blade MT Constant Speed Propeller which is excellent except I
can't take it in excess of 3000RPM.
However due to Polar Moment of Inertia arbitary figures imposed by the
Jabiru Factory I had to make a modification to the crank shaft end and have
special shank bolts made since the Germans wouldn't be associated with the
Jabiru Flange. I believe Jabiru have now re-arranged their fixing bolts to
go half way to my modification. But they would be most reluctant to admit it
!
To see my fixings and various cooling arrangements visit
http://crixbinfield.freeserve.co.uk/europa.htm and click on "Bob Harrisons
Europa G-PTAG"
It's by the way that I have just had to re-ring the pistons, have all the
valves refaced at 458 hours. I would say due to running with oil too cold,
too high manifold pressures ! Ask me off circuit the reasons IMHO !
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Wood" <fswood@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: europa handling with subaru
> --> Europa-List message posted by: Frank Wood <fswood@shaw.ca>
>
> Hi Tom,You may want to have a look at the Jabiru 3300,I have one in my
> Classic tri-gear and Mr Harrison in the U.K. has one, and,I am sure there
> are a few others.It is not turbo charged like the 914 Rotax,but I am lead
to
> believe,that the HP is better at lower altitudes (below 10,000) and it
does
> not have reduction gearing being a direct drive.It is an aluminium block
and
> heads air cooled dedicated aircraft engine,there had been some cooling
> issues with earlier models but those problems have been corrected to the
> best of my knowlege.I do not know how they compare in price but it is
worth
> looking into.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <tom@tompaul.com>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: europa handling with subaru
>
>
> > --> Europa-List message posted by: "tom@tompaul.com" <tom@tompaul.com>
> >
> > this is a very interesting thread. the props, the engine, the
> > handling, the weights... it seems the europa has many personalities,
> > depending on the powertrain combination chosen. I am at least a year
> > away from needing an engine, i think, so, with all my options open
> > still, it is with great interest that i research the various
> > possibilities. The subaru seems attractive because of the power, as
> > does the cam 125 for the same reason. But i hate the thought of
> > "spoiling" the fine Europa handling. I don't really understand how
> > this happens with polar inertia, blah, blah, but i trust that there is
> > truth to it. I guess it has to do with the hard-to-move effect of a
> > hanging a heavy weight at the end of the stick.
> >
> > The Rospeller prop system seems wonderful but, with the dollar to euro
> > ratio currently, it is very expensive. around US$8k it seems, for the
> > best package.
> >
> > The BMW is too anemic, no? 80hp? I know Kim Prout has a wonderfully
> > performing machine with a standard 912, so it CAN work, but people
> > don't seem to be getting the factory numbers even with a 914. What
> > gives with this? The factory claims a 170 knot cruise, but the figures
> > reported from flying aircraft tend to hover around 140kts.
> > I am leaning toward the 912S, i guess, since i live at sea level and
> > don't have a surplus of the green stuff, though i am very open to other
> > options. I would love to stuff 150 hp in there somehow, but the weight
> > of most engines seem very problematic. I spoke with a gentleman from
> > texas who is fitting an 0-200. Has this been done before? Is it a
> > good option?
> > So many choices. Let's keep this thread going.
> >
> > Best,
> > Tom Paul
> >
> >
> > On Jun 17, 2004, at 4:04 PM, Runnymede73@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > > --> Europa-List message posted by: Runnymede73@aol.com
> > >
> > > whatever happened to the BMW motorbike engine installation?
> > > i think one is flying in switzerland.
> > > that gave 80+ horsepower. the only snag might be if one cylinder went
> > > down
> > > in flight. however the german firm who make the gearbox also convert
> > > the heads
> > > to 2 plugs
> > > rgds
> > > runnymede
> > >
> > >
> > > _-
> > >
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> > > _-
> > >
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> > > _-
> > >
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> > > _-
> > >
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> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
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