---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 06/17/04: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:09 AM - Re: europa handling with subaru (Neville Eyre) 2. 05:06 AM - Re: Seats (Kingsley Hurst) 3. 07:04 AM - Re: europa handling with subaru (Runnymede73@aol.com) 4. 07:40 AM - 912S, Warp Drive FP, fuel flow meter (Norbert.P.Hoffmann@t-online.de (Norbert P. Hoffmann)) 5. 08:53 AM - Re: europa handling with subaru (tom@tompaul.com) 6. 11:23 AM - Re: Seats (Joe Proctor) 7. 11:46 AM - Re: Seats (Gerry Holland) 8. 12:09 PM - Re: Seats (Jeff Roberts) 9. 12:22 PM - Re: Seats (Rocketman) 10. 12:28 PM - Re: Seats (Fergus Kyle) 11. 01:02 PM - Re: europa handling with subaru (Frank Wood) 12. 04:08 PM - Re: Seats (Kingsley Hurst) 13. 04:38 PM - Re: Seats (Tony Renshaw) 14. 05:27 PM - Re: Seats (Cliff Shaw) 15. 10:46 PM - Re: Seats (R.C.Harrison) 16. 11:05 PM - Re: europa handling with subaru (R.C.Harrison) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:09:37 AM PST US Subject: RE: Europa-List: europa handling with subaru From: "Neville Eyre" --> Europa-List message posted by: "Neville Eyre" Hi, Perhaps my use of the word''messes'' was not well thought out, ''spoils'' would better describe the outcome of fitting a heavier powerplant ? As you have discovered, the Europa handles just about better than any other aeroplane out there [as I have often been told by people who have flown MANY more types than myself] jump out of yours and into a Rotax powered example, and do a direct comparison. The late [ and great] Pete Clark, who did most all of the spin tests, used words that are certainly unprintable on this Forum to describe the effect of the Subaru installation on the finer points of the aircraft's handling ! Pete was all for putting more power in it [ bigger is better, too much was just enough] was his thinking, I know he prefered the Rotax powered examples. Nothing wrong with the Subaru, exellent piece of engineering. Cheers, Nev. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of GLENN CROWDER Subject: Europa-List: europa handling with subaru --> Europa-List message posted by: "GLENN CROWDER" Hey Neville! Your comment that "the increased polar moment of inertia totally messes up the a very fine handling aeroplane" does not match my observations at all. The Subaru powered Europa seems very light and lively to me. My hangar mate with a O-320 powered Mustang II has flown the Europa several times and has commented that the handling is quite a bit lighter than his plane, both in roll and pitch. I have flown his plane also and while his aileron roll and pitch forces are higher, they are not heavy by any means. My instructor/test pilot who has test piloted hundreds of newly finished experimentals commented on how light the handling was and thought it was the best handling experimental he had flown although certainly not the fastest. He flies a Thorp T-18. I also had him do a complete stall series, flaps up and down including some spin entries and noted no issues. This was after someone on the list reported that his Europa would start to roll under on a flaps down approach stall. I have done flaps down stalls myself and only get a small wing break sometimes to the left, sometimes to the right, release on back stick instantly arrests the stall. The one thing I have noticed when flying with a passenger is the ease of landing. When landing solo, after touching the tail first, I always seem to get one small bounce on the main before sticking down, with a passenger as soon as the main wheel touches it sticks and stays down. Roll out seems more stable as well. I've only flown on paved runways so I can't comment on grass field landing behaviour. One thing I really like about the Europa is that I can set the pitch trim in one spot for touch and goes and leave it alone for every part of the pattern. On downwind, just reduce power and slowly drop the flaps, the plane automatically seems to slow down to just the right speed (about 65 mph) with no pitch up as flaps are lowered. The last time I flew a Cessna, I remember constantly retrimming around the pattern, particularly forcing the nose down on flap application. On the Europa, the only time I change the trim is when going to cruise speeds. Cheers! Glenn Crowder Watch the online reality show Mixed Messages with a friend and enter to win a trip to NY http://www.msnmessenger-download.click-url.com/go/onm00200497ave/direct/01/ ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:06:03 AM PST US From: "Kingsley Hurst" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Seats --> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" Alfred Buess wrote:- > Some week ago I sent drawings and pictures of my Europa XS cockpit > interior to Oregon Aero . . . . . . . .As soon as I will be able to trial fit them, I will let > the forum know how it looks and feels. Thank you Alfred Regards Kingsley ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:04:58 AM PST US From: Runnymede73@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: europa handling with subaru --> Europa-List message posted by: Runnymede73@aol.com whatever happened to the BMW motorbike engine installation? i think one is flying in switzerland. that gave 80+ horsepower. the only snag might be if one cylinder went down in flight. however the german firm who make the gearbox also convert the heads to 2 plugs rgds runnymede ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:40:51 AM PST US From: Norbert.P.Hoffmann@t-online.de (Norbert P. Hoffmann) Subject: Europa-List: 912S, Warp Drive FP, fuel flow meter --> Europa-List message posted by: Norbert.P.Hoffmann@t-online.de (Norbert P. Hoffmann) D-EUPA is short before receiving its final airworthines certificate. However, German officials would like to see fuel consumption figures for different airspeeds (90, 100, 110, 120, 130 kts). Since D-EUPA does not have a fuel flow meter, numbers from a similar Europa will be accepted. Therefore I'm looking for a kind soul with a Europa equipped with a 912S, a Warp Drive fixed pitch propeller, and a fuel flow meter who could help me in getting the above mentioned set of numbers. Any help is appreciated! Norbert D-EUPA ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:53:14 AM PST US From: "tom@tompaul.com" Subject: Re: Europa-List: europa handling with subaru --> Europa-List message posted by: "tom@tompaul.com" this is a very interesting thread. the props, the engine, the handling, the weights... it seems the europa has many personalities, depending on the powertrain combination chosen. I am at least a year away from needing an engine, i think, so, with all my options open still, it is with great interest that i research the various possibilities. The subaru seems attractive because of the power, as does the cam 125 for the same reason. But i hate the thought of "spoiling" the fine Europa handling. I don't really understand how this happens with polar inertia, blah, blah, but i trust that there is truth to it. I guess it has to do with the hard-to-move effect of a hanging a heavy weight at the end of the stick. The Rospeller prop system seems wonderful but, with the dollar to euro ratio currently, it is very expensive. around US$8k it seems, for the best package. The BMW is too anemic, no? 80hp? I know Kim Prout has a wonderfully performing machine with a standard 912, so it CAN work, but people don't seem to be getting the factory numbers even with a 914. What gives with this? The factory claims a 170 knot cruise, but the figures reported from flying aircraft tend to hover around 140kts. I am leaning toward the 912S, i guess, since i live at sea level and don't have a surplus of the green stuff, though i am very open to other options. I would love to stuff 150 hp in there somehow, but the weight of most engines seem very problematic. I spoke with a gentleman from texas who is fitting an 0-200. Has this been done before? Is it a good option? So many choices. Let's keep this thread going. Best, Tom Paul On Jun 17, 2004, at 4:04 PM, Runnymede73@aol.com wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: Runnymede73@aol.com > > whatever happened to the BMW motorbike engine installation? > i think one is flying in switzerland. > that gave 80+ horsepower. the only snag might be if one cylinder went > down > in flight. however the german firm who make the gearbox also convert > the heads > to 2 plugs > rgds > runnymede > > > _- > ======================================================================= > _- > ======================================================================= > _- > ======================================================================= > _- > ======================================================================= > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:23:24 AM PST US From: "Joe Proctor" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Seats --> Europa-List message posted by: "Joe Proctor" Hi All, Having just brought my kit home and living very close to OregonAero I stopped by their factory to talk about the seats and they want me to bring the cockpit module by so they can make some accurate seat templates. Can anyone tell me if I need to take anything else out to them to help make it more functional model. Thanks, Joe pjoe2@qwest.net 503-654-5805 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kingsley Hurst" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Seats > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" > > Alfred Buess wrote:- > > Some week ago I sent drawings and pictures of my Europa XS cockpit > > interior to Oregon Aero . . . . . . . .As soon as I will be able to trial > fit them, I will let > > the forum know how it looks and feels. > > Thank you Alfred > > Regards > Kingsley > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:46:11 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Seats From: Gerry Holland --> Europa-List message posted by: Gerry Holland Joe Hi! > They want me to bring the cockpit module by so they can make some accurate > > > seat templates. Can anyone tell me if I need to take anything else out to them > to help make it more functional model. You may need to point out where the Port Pip Pin and Starboard Pins are located. The holes are already in place for guidance. Cant think of anything else. Regards Gerry Europa 384 G-FIZY Trigear with Rotax 912 and Arplast CS Prop. Engine and Prop getting near to starting. Painting completed. Just vinyl design scheme to be added. Completing Wiring to Panel. Starting on some interior finish. Includes Dynon EFIS, KMD 150, Icom A-200 and SL70 Transponder. AoA Fitted. Shoulder Width Mod completed. Heater Unit ready to build. http://www.g-fizy.com +44 7808 402404 gnholland@onetel.com ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:09:59 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Seats From: Jeff Roberts --> Europa-List message posted by: Jeff Roberts on 6/17/04 1:23 PM, Joe Proctor at pjoe2@qwest.net wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Joe Proctor" > > Hi All, > Having just brought my kit home and living very close to OregonAero I > stopped by their factory to talk about the seats and they want me to bring > the cockpit module by so they can make some accurate seat templates. Can > anyone tell me if I need to take anything else out to them to help make it > more functional model. > Thanks, > Joe > pjoe2@qwest.net > 503-654-5805 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kingsley Hurst" > To: > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Seats > > >> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" > >> >> Alfred Buess wrote:- >>> Some week ago I sent drawings and pictures of my Europa XS cockpit >>> interior to Oregon Aero . . . . . . . .As soon as I will be able to > trial >> fit them, I will let >>> the forum know how it looks and feels. >> >> Thank you Alfred >> >> Regards >> Kingsley >> >> > > > > > > Joe, Please keep us all advised on your progress. I know I would like to use there seats. Good luck. Jeff A258 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:22:45 PM PST US From: Rocketman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Seats --> Europa-List message posted by: Rocketman Joe Proctor wrote: >Hi All, >Having just brought my kit home and living very close to OregonAero I >stopped by their factory to talk about the seats and they want me to bring >the cockpit module by so they can make some accurate seat templates. Can >anyone tell me if I need to take anything else out to them to help make it >more functional model. >Thanks, > Joe, Make sure they understand that there will be a "floor" over the torque tube tunnel. And, be sure to let us know what they say, as many of us would probably be interested in what they have to offer... -- Jeff - A055 N55XS Builders Log: http://www.n55xs.com Waiting on Europa for delivery of the Tri-Gear components. Control surfaces are in the paint shop... ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:28:14 PM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Seats --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Proctor" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Seats | --> Europa-List message posted by: "Joe Proctor" | | Hi All, | Having just brought my kit home and living very close to OregonAero I | stopped by their factory to talk about the seats and they want me to bring | the cockpit module by so they can make some accurate seat templates. Can | anyone tell me if I need to take anything else out to them to help make it | more functional model. | Thanks, | Joe | pjoe2@qwest.net | 503-654-5805 Joe, Thanks for asking! The only thing you might impress on them is that yours is an "XS" cockpit. Earlier versions had wider tunnels between the seats and may require different widths. Cheers, Ferg A064 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:02:30 PM PST US From: Frank Wood Subject: Re: Europa-List: europa handling with subaru --> Europa-List message posted by: Frank Wood Hi Tom,You may want to have a look at the Jabiru 3300,I have one in my Classic tri-gear and Mr Harrison in the U.K. has one, and,I am sure there are a few others.It is not turbo charged like the 914 Rotax,but I am lead to believe,that the HP is better at lower altitudes (below 10,000) and it does not have reduction gearing being a direct drive.It is an aluminium block and heads air cooled dedicated aircraft engine,there had been some cooling issues with earlier models but those problems have been corrected to the best of my knowlege.I do not know how they compare in price but it is worth looking into. ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Europa-List: europa handling with subaru > --> Europa-List message posted by: "tom@tompaul.com" > > this is a very interesting thread. the props, the engine, the > handling, the weights... it seems the europa has many personalities, > depending on the powertrain combination chosen. I am at least a year > away from needing an engine, i think, so, with all my options open > still, it is with great interest that i research the various > possibilities. The subaru seems attractive because of the power, as > does the cam 125 for the same reason. But i hate the thought of > "spoiling" the fine Europa handling. I don't really understand how > this happens with polar inertia, blah, blah, but i trust that there is > truth to it. I guess it has to do with the hard-to-move effect of a > hanging a heavy weight at the end of the stick. > > The Rospeller prop system seems wonderful but, with the dollar to euro > ratio currently, it is very expensive. around US$8k it seems, for the > best package. > > The BMW is too anemic, no? 80hp? I know Kim Prout has a wonderfully > performing machine with a standard 912, so it CAN work, but people > don't seem to be getting the factory numbers even with a 914. What > gives with this? The factory claims a 170 knot cruise, but the figures > reported from flying aircraft tend to hover around 140kts. > I am leaning toward the 912S, i guess, since i live at sea level and > don't have a surplus of the green stuff, though i am very open to other > options. I would love to stuff 150 hp in there somehow, but the weight > of most engines seem very problematic. I spoke with a gentleman from > texas who is fitting an 0-200. Has this been done before? Is it a > good option? > So many choices. Let's keep this thread going. > > Best, > Tom Paul > > > On Jun 17, 2004, at 4:04 PM, Runnymede73@aol.com wrote: > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: Runnymede73@aol.com > > > > whatever happened to the BMW motorbike engine installation? > > i think one is flying in switzerland. > > that gave 80+ horsepower. the only snag might be if one cylinder went > > down > > in flight. however the german firm who make the gearbox also convert > > the heads > > to 2 plugs > > rgds > > runnymede > > > > > > _- > > ======================================================================= > > _- > > ======================================================================= > > _- > > ======================================================================= > > _- > > ======================================================================= > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:08:15 PM PST US From: "Kingsley Hurst" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Seats --> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" Joe Proctor wrote:- > Having just brought my kit home and living very close to OregonAero I > . . . . . . . Can anyone tell me if I need to take anything else out to them > to help make it more functional model. Joe, In addition to the comments already made by Jeff (Rocketman) and Ferg Kyle, for Monos especially, the height of the seat is important. Therefore, Oregon Aero might like to take into consideration the need to be able to adjust the height for people of different statures. Consequently, it may be worth while suggesting to David Esterline (Oregon Aero) that he checks this aspect out when he goes to Oshkosh next month. Thank you for making your module available. Regards Kingsley Hurst Mono Classic 281 in Oz. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:38:53 PM PST US From: Tony Renshaw Subject: Re: Europa-List: Seats --> Europa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw Gidday, My 2 cents worth...................not very many still have old modules without seats, but I do, and me mate. So, if a seat combination can be made up by Oregon that allows the slightly narrower option too for us guys, well we would probably happily tag along for the ride. I know this raises potentially a problem, but happy to help with dims. Reg Tony Renshaw Sydney Australia Classic 236 B.B. Taildragger Tail, Wings, Ailerons, Flaps Complete and Connected Lower Fuse in Jig, Tail Torque Tube installed Mass Balance assembly installed and deflections sorted Roof Panel between doors completed. Photos at: http://forum.okhuijsen.org/modules.php?set_albumName=TonyR&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php&PHPSESSID=902b69917a45f8b18ac84fe3f85a704b Intended Engine: 912S CS prop (model undecided) Instrumentation: Undecided ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:27:50 PM PST US From: "Cliff Shaw" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Seats --> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" Joe Besides the wing pins, the seat belt might be of some concern. In my plane I did not make any allowance for the seat belts in the shape of the seat bottom, and it seem to work OK. I don't know what they would design. I am sure they know, but it would not hurt to remind them that the height of the seat must be adjustable so your head is 1" below the door window. I add sheets of pink foam under the foam seat cushions in Wile E. Coyote. Cliff Shaw > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Joe Proctor" > > Hi All, > Having just brought my kit home and living very close to OregonAero I ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:46:19 PM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Seats --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" Hi! Joe. The main thing you'll need to advise is the maximum thickness of the seat in all directions. Otherwise with long torso you will be rubbing your head on the overhead door . To establish that you need some dimensions from a completed aircraft. For a variable facility and tall/long people it is wise to have a removable under cushion. I have a piece of 2" dynafoam which just has to be removed from under my BMW Series three foam seat bases. Also you will need to maintain access to the fuel switch if it is installed lower P1 right as suggested in the build manual. Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MK1/XS Cockpit Module/Jabiru 3300 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Proctor" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Seats > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Joe Proctor" > > Hi All, > Having just brought my kit home and living very close to OregonAero I > stopped by their factory to talk about the seats and they want me to bring > the cockpit module by so they can make some accurate seat templates. Can > anyone tell me if I need to take anything else out to them to help make it > more functional model. > Thanks, > Joe > pjoe2@qwest.net > 503-654-5805 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kingsley Hurst" > To: > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Seats > > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" > > > > > Alfred Buess wrote:- > > > Some week ago I sent drawings and pictures of my Europa XS cockpit > > > interior to Oregon Aero . . . . . . . .As soon as I will be able to > trial > > fit them, I will let > > > the forum know how it looks and feels. > > > > Thank you Alfred > > > > Regards > > Kingsley > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:05:02 PM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: Re: Europa-List: europa handling with subaru --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" Hi! Tom Just picked this thread up from the forum. I have a 3300 Jab. Had major challenges with the cooling but have it mostly sorted out now. I have a three blade MT Constant Speed Propeller which is excellent except I can't take it in excess of 3000RPM. However due to Polar Moment of Inertia arbitary figures imposed by the Jabiru Factory I had to make a modification to the crank shaft end and have special shank bolts made since the Germans wouldn't be associated with the Jabiru Flange. I believe Jabiru have now re-arranged their fixing bolts to go half way to my modification. But they would be most reluctant to admit it ! To see my fixings and various cooling arrangements visit http://crixbinfield.freeserve.co.uk/europa.htm and click on "Bob Harrisons Europa G-PTAG" It's by the way that I have just had to re-ring the pistons, have all the valves refaced at 458 hours. I would say due to running with oil too cold, too high manifold pressures ! Ask me off circuit the reasons IMHO ! Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Wood" Subject: Re: Europa-List: europa handling with subaru > --> Europa-List message posted by: Frank Wood > > Hi Tom,You may want to have a look at the Jabiru 3300,I have one in my > Classic tri-gear and Mr Harrison in the U.K. has one, and,I am sure there > are a few others.It is not turbo charged like the 914 Rotax,but I am lead to > believe,that the HP is better at lower altitudes (below 10,000) and it does > not have reduction gearing being a direct drive.It is an aluminium block and > heads air cooled dedicated aircraft engine,there had been some cooling > issues with earlier models but those problems have been corrected to the > best of my knowlege.I do not know how they compare in price but it is worth > looking into. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Subject: Re: Europa-List: europa handling with subaru > > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "tom@tompaul.com" > > > > this is a very interesting thread. the props, the engine, the > > handling, the weights... it seems the europa has many personalities, > > depending on the powertrain combination chosen. I am at least a year > > away from needing an engine, i think, so, with all my options open > > still, it is with great interest that i research the various > > possibilities. The subaru seems attractive because of the power, as > > does the cam 125 for the same reason. But i hate the thought of > > "spoiling" the fine Europa handling. I don't really understand how > > this happens with polar inertia, blah, blah, but i trust that there is > > truth to it. I guess it has to do with the hard-to-move effect of a > > hanging a heavy weight at the end of the stick. > > > > The Rospeller prop system seems wonderful but, with the dollar to euro > > ratio currently, it is very expensive. around US$8k it seems, for the > > best package. > > > > The BMW is too anemic, no? 80hp? I know Kim Prout has a wonderfully > > performing machine with a standard 912, so it CAN work, but people > > don't seem to be getting the factory numbers even with a 914. What > > gives with this? The factory claims a 170 knot cruise, but the figures > > reported from flying aircraft tend to hover around 140kts. > > I am leaning toward the 912S, i guess, since i live at sea level and > > don't have a surplus of the green stuff, though i am very open to other > > options. I would love to stuff 150 hp in there somehow, but the weight > > of most engines seem very problematic. I spoke with a gentleman from > > texas who is fitting an 0-200. Has this been done before? Is it a > > good option? > > So many choices. Let's keep this thread going. > > > > Best, > > Tom Paul > > > > > > On Jun 17, 2004, at 4:04 PM, Runnymede73@aol.com wrote: > > > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: Runnymede73@aol.com > > > > > > whatever happened to the BMW motorbike engine installation? > > > i think one is flying in switzerland. > > > that gave 80+ horsepower. the only snag might be if one cylinder went > > > down > > > in flight. however the german firm who make the gearbox also convert > > > the heads > > > to 2 plugs > > > rgds > > > runnymede > > > > > > > > > _- > > > ======================================================================= > > > _- > > > ======================================================================= > > > _- > > > ======================================================================= > > > _- > > > ======================================================================= > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >