Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:27 AM - Re: Starter kickback (rlborger)
2. 08:56 AM - www.europaclub.org.uk , forum.okhuijsen.org and others (josok)
3. 09:35 AM - Re: Starter kickback (nigel charles)
4. 11:15 AM - Possible Problems at Europa (Nigel Harrison)
5. 12:15 PM - Europa club flyout to Duxford, UK, sat 26 June (DaveBuzz@aol.com)
6. 01:01 PM - Re: Possible Problems at Europa (Al Stills)
7. 01:45 PM - Re: Possible Problems at Europa (KARL HEINDL)
8. 01:56 PM - Re: Starter kickback (Nigel Graham)
9. 02:36 PM - Re: Possible Problems at Europa (Karel Vranken)
10. 02:37 PM - Re: Possible Problems at Europa (Gerry Holland)
11. 05:01 PM - just three thoughts (Raimo Toivio)
12. 05:04 PM - Re: Europa List - Possible Problems at Europa (Keith Hartley)
13. 05:16 PM - Re: Possible Problems at Europa (Keith Hartley)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Starter kickback |
--> Europa-List message posted by: rlborger <rlborger@mac.com>
Nigel,
I remember the kickback thread and also remember being taught (many
many years ago) that the dual ignition on aircraft engines were at
different timing and that some engines disabled the more advanced
ignition to improve starting. So, I dug up my ROTAX 914 Manuals (PDF
format on CD provided with the engine) to see if ignition timing was
documented. The ROTAX 914 Maintenance Manual, Sec. 9.4.1), Page 50
describes ignition timing. I will try to quote the page verbatim
(don't blame wording, punctuation, etc. on me), use of a fixed width
font is recommended:
Quote -----
Ignition
See Pic. 24.
As already stated the engine is equipped with dual ignition of a
breakerless
capacitor discharge design (DCDI). That means that the ignition unit
com-
prises two independently working ignition circuits (separate trigger
coil,
electronic module, charging coil etc.).
*NOTE: The ignition unit is completely free of maintenance and
without any adjustment.
Each ignition circuit consists of two ignition branches. Ignition
occurs on
cylinder 1 and 2 simultaneously every 360d as well as on cylinder 3 and
4 but
180d offset.
*NOTE: Due to engine design ignition occurs also at overlap
T.D.C.,
but this is for engine operation insignificant.
The engine is furnished with an automatic ignition adjustment
controlled by
the edge of trigger cams on the flywheel and the electronic modules.
*NOTE: For easy engine start the ignition timing at start is 4d
B.T.D.C.
As soon as the engine runs the ignition timing will change over
automatically
to operation timing of
26d BTDC on ignition circuit A and
22d BTEC on ignition circuit B
The transition from start ignition timing to the timing for operation
takes place
between 650 to 1000 rpm.
*NOTE The different ignition timing for the top spark plugs and
the
bottom spark plugs take into account the differing ignition
lag resulting in better knock behaviour.
The difference in the ignition timing will be achieved by
different length of the trigger cam.
Trigger cam for ignition circuit A (raised position) is
approx.
4 mm (.16") longer.
Unquote ---
From this information, I don't see that shutting off one ignition
circuit would help. Unless a bit less energetic start of the
combustion is all that may be needed.
Now this if for the 914, the 912 and 912S may be different. You might
check the appropriate maintenance manuals and see what they say about
timing. From there, perhaps, a suitable solution might be determined.
Just my tuppence...
Good building to those still building
Good flying to those fortunate souls,
Bob Borger
Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, 914, Airmaster C/S
(65%) tail kit done, wings closed, cockpit module installed, pitch
system in, landing gear frame in, rudder system in, outrigger mod in,
Fuselage Top on, lift/drag/flap pins in. Working in - 24 Instrument
Panel, 25 Electrical, 29 Main Gear, 30 Fuel System, 32 Tail & 34 Door
Latches.
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208
Home: 940-497-2123
Cel: 817-992-1117
> There was a thread recently about kickback during start with the
912S. This
> can be quite vicious and I had it happen quite often especially on
cold
> starts. Apparently it can also lead to damage to the starter sprag
clutch.
> The problem is worse with the 912S than the 912 or the 914 due to its
higher
> compression ratio. It was pointed out that it happens because, with
the
> Rotax ignition system there is no provision for retarding the
ignition during
> start. With this in mind it occurred to me that the speed of ignition
may
> be slightly slower if the engine was started with just one ignition
system
> working. I have since found that I get less kickbacks when I start
using
> just one ignition system. It is obviously important to remember to
reselect
> both magnetos after engine start. This technique is only possible if
you
> have separate magneto and starter switches although it would be
possible
> to add extra wiring to short out one ignition system during start
with a
> key starter.
Message 2
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| Subject: | www.europaclub.org.uk , forum.okhuijsen.org and others |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "josok" <josok@ukolo.fi>
On 23.6.2004 0600Z there will be a planned interruption in service. The reason
is a speed improvement from 2 Mbits now to 4 Mbits.
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
----------------
Any Photos or attachments to this email will be located at the following link:
http://forum.okhuijsen.org/viewtopic.php?p=457#457
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Starter kickback |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "nigel charles" <nigelcharles@tiscali.co.uk>
>>The engine is furnished with an automatic ignition adjustment
controlled by
the edge of trigger cams on the flywheel and the electronic modules.
*NOTE: For easy engine start the ignition timing at start is 4d
B.T.D.C.
As soon as the engine runs the ignition timing will change over
automatically
to operation timing of
26d BTDC on ignition circuit A and
22d BTEC on ignition circuit B
The transition from start ignition timing to the timing for operation
takes place
between 650 to 1000 rpm.<<
Hi Bob
Thanks for this Rotax 914 ignition info. I was not supplied with a CD with
my 912S but have a copy of the 912 manual. This quotes 6deg BTDC for start
changing to 26 deg BTDC between 600 & 900rpm for both systems after start. I
suspect the 912S with its different compression ratio and capacity will be
different again. Does anyone have a copy of the 912S manual (paper or CD) so
that we can check this?
Using a single system is likely to produce a slower and less complete
ignition (hence the rpm drop on the mag check) so maybe this is the reason
why it seems to help. If the temporary delayed ignition reverts too quickly
during start this could cause the problem. If the 912S has different
settings for A and B systems (like the 914) maybe it would be better to use
B for start. With different ignition settings for each system one might
expect slightly differing sizes of mag drop between the two systems.
I will pass our discussion on to Nigel Beale (UK Rotax expert) to see if he
has any comments on this.
Regards
Nigel Charles
Message 4
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| Subject: | Possible Problems at Europa |
pts rule name description
---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Nigel Harrison" <NAHarrison@manx.net>
Dear All,
Just thought I'd air my suspicions that all may not be well in the Europa
organisation. I ordered my accelerated XS Tri-gear kit over a year ago and
have yet to receive any of it. I'm assured it is with them. My increasingly
frustrated calls to Europa have been answered very understandingly by the
staff - John and Sharon, but I do not seem to be able to get any joy out of
the two people who are supposedly dealing with the delivery - namely Ray
Bedford and Keith Wilson depite repeated assurances that they would contact
me. When I rang again today, the vibes I got over the phone were that there
are significant frustrations/problems within the organisation, but that it
was in the process of being sorted out. I have to say I'm a bit concerned.
Has anyone else had such problems with delivery times? Is this the norm for
accelerated kits and I'm just being impatient?
Regards
Nigel Harrison
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Message 5
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| Subject: | Europa club flyout to Duxford, UK, sat 26 June |
pts rule name description
---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------
--> Europa-List message posted by: DaveBuzz@aol.com
For those of you considering this trip, please note that Tony Burbidge is now
not able to co-ordinate the event.
If you are interested in flying to Duxford please contact me off list, dave bosomworth,
at davebuzz@aol.com for further info.
The plan is to meet at Duxford on saturday 26th june (weather permitting) and
then tour the museum, but if you can let me know in advance for numbers I would
much appreciate it.
PLEASE NOTE! Duxford is strictly PPR by telephone on 01223 833376 (ATC, 1000-1745L).
I've spoken to the airfield manager, and because of Nimby's reporting
and whinging about anything that flies over their gardens, you MUST call first
- the Club cannot arrange ppr for you.
Skol,
dave
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Possible Problems at Europa |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Al Stills" <astills@senecawholesale.com>
Nigel,
I know there is some organization problems at the UK from me getting my
Tri Gear. They continually back order and don't advise their Reps. It took almost
the same amount of time to get mine complete. I feel sorry for John here in
the US as the factory doesn't let him know much. I really think its a problem
of organization at the factory. A lot of their products are shopped out to small
contractors and have to wait until they get enough to run. It would help if
they would make bigger runs.................but................... I'm sure
the frustration is felt by all in the organizing but they do a remarkable job
in spite of it.
Al Stills
A095
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Possible Problems at Europa |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "KARL HEINDL" <kheindl@msn.com>
Nigel and Al,
I can understand delivery problems related to sub-contractors not delivering etc.,
but their way of doing business is just not what it used to be. I ordered
a few small bits from the catalog about 4 months ago: order(s) were never confirmed,
emails are never answered, telephone messages are ignored, I never made
a payment. Ray told me a few weeks ago that the things were in the mail. When
he is away (quite often) there is no one else who can help.
All (not just new kits) orders should be confirmed immediately, with prices and
delivery status, and when there are delays the customer should be informed.
Cheers, Karl
p.s. one new customer is still waiting for the preskinned control surfaces he ordered
two years ago (and paid for them), and was never informed of any delays
or why.
From: "Al Stills" astills@senecawholesale.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Possible Problems at Europa
-- Europa-List message posted by: "Al Stills" astills@senecawholesale.com
Nigel,
I know there is some organization problems at the UK from me getting my
Tri Gear. They continually back order and don't advise their Reps. It took almost
the same amount of time to get mine complete. I feel sorry for John here in
the US as the factory doesn't let him know much. I really think its a problem
of organization at the factory. A lot of their products are shopped out to small
contractors and have to wait until they get enough to run. It would help if
they would make bigger runs.................but................... I'm sure
the frustration is felt by all in the organizing but they do a remarkable job
in spite of it.
Al Stills
A095
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Starter kickback |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Nigel Graham" <nigel_graham@btclick.com>
Nigel,
According to the Rotax spec sheets, both the 912 and 912S show 4 deg.
BTDC to 1000 rpm, 26 deg BTDC above.
The 914 shows 4 deg BTDC to 900 rpm, 26 deg BTDC above.
Rotax recently announced that they were standardising the entire
ignition systems of the 912/912S and 914.
Regards
Nigel G
................. I suspect the 912S with its different compression
ratio and capacity will be
different again. Does anyone have a copy of the 912S manual (paper or
CD) so
that we can check this?..................
Regards
Nigel Charles
==
==
==
==
Message 9
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| Subject: | Possible Problems at Europa |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Karel Vranken" <karelvranken@hotmail.com>
Hi Nigel,
You are one of the multitude; but we don't dare to talk about. Europa
doesn't like such discussions on the forum! We just don't know why.
Karel Vranken # 447 F-PKRL.
>From: "Nigel Harrison" <NAHarrison@manx.net>
>Reply-To: europa-list@matronics.com
>To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Europa-List: Possible Problems at Europa
>Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 19:15:43 +0100 pts rule name
>description ---- ----------------------
>-------------------------------------------
>
>--> Europa-List message posted by: "Nigel Harrison" <NAHarrison@manx.net>
>
>
>Dear All,
>
>Just thought I'd air my suspicions that all may not be well in the Europa
>organisation. I ordered my accelerated XS Tri-gear kit over a year ago and
>have yet to receive any of it. I'm assured it is with them. My increasingly
>frustrated calls to Europa have been answered very understandingly by the
>staff - John and Sharon, but I do not seem to be able to get any joy out of
>the two people who are supposedly dealing with the delivery - namely Ray
>Bedford and Keith Wilson depite repeated assurances that they would contact
>me. When I rang again today, the vibes I got over the phone were that there
>are significant frustrations/problems within the organisation, but that it
>was in the process of being sorted out. I have to say I'm a bit concerned.
>Has anyone else had such problems with delivery times? Is this the norm for
>accelerated kits and I'm just being impatient?
>
>Regards
>
>Nigel Harrison
>
>
>*************************************************************
>This email has been scanned by the Manxnet Mail Plus anti-virus system.
>http://www.manx.net/solutions/mailplushome.asp
>*************************************************************
>
>
en win een extra maandsalaris.
http://www.msn.be/jobs/salarisenquete/default.asp
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Possible Problems at Europa |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Gerry Holland <gnholland@onetel.com>
If anyone from Europa Aircraft is monitoring this list they need to draw to
the attention of Keith Wilson and others at Kirbymoorside the gravity of the
rumours circulating. These are not just in Europa circles but others
including Aircraft Service Vendors plus Builders of other types of Aircraft.
Worst than that the poor feedback is going world wide.
With the PFA Rally just two weeks away a statement should be forthcoming!
If there isn't a problem then there soon will be due to this gathering sense
of gloom.
I hope all is well especially for those working at Europa and someone there
raises their game and provides the facts whatever they may be.
Regards
Gerry
Europa 384 G-FIZY
Trigear with Rotax 912 and Arplast CS Prop.
Engine and Prop getting near to starting.
Painting completed. Just vinyl design scheme to be added.
Completing Wiring to Panel.
Includes Dynon EFIS, KMD 150, Icom A-200 and SL70 Transponder. AoA Fitted.
Shoulder Width Mod completed.
http://www.g-fizy.com
+44 7808 402404
gnholland@onetel.com
Message 11
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| Subject: | just three thoughts |
pts rule name description
---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi>
Hi All Europa World!
1) my third princess was born few hours ago
2) I am happy for those lucky builders
-Tim Ward (he has produced also my boots!)
- Paul McAllister (thanks for many good advices!)
- Dirk Van Oyen (who visited me couple of
years ago and remember well his mc with
brilliant constant speed/power adjustment!)
and hope them all safe and satisfying flying.
3) my wings are IN and both were easily 2,5 degrees AoA
(measured by root, tips are so far unknown,
will calibrate later!)
If you like look my project, please try
http://www.rwm.fi/t_u_o_t_t_e_e_t_photogallery/muut_toiminnot_links/10362-007997.jpeg
Hoping you all, all the best,
Raimo M W Toivio
OH-XRT #417
OH-CVK
OH-BLL
37500 Lempaala
Finland
tel + 358 3 3753 777
fax + 358 3 3753 100
gsm + 358 40 590 1450
raimo.toivio@rwm.fi
www.rwm.fi
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Europa List - Possible Problems at Europa |
pts rule name description
---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Keith Hartley" <tarnish7@iprimus.com.au>
Nigel,
Good comment: I wondered whether I was just a bad case, but clearly I'm not. I
ordered my XS Mono accellerated kit over 2 years ago and and paid for it more
than 18 months ago. I collected what I thought was the complete kit bar the
cockpit module and shipped it to Australia along with my personal goods as I emigrated.
On arrival, a detailed invemntory check showed I was short of cockpit
module, complete tailplane kit, flaps, ailerons and rudder. Europa immediately
acknowledged the shortfall and promised to sort quickly. After much e-mailing,
phoning and increasingly bitter hassle, the missing components finally
arrived last week: the necessary support paperwork - invoicing, parts listings
etc. - needed to help sort out the customs duty and tax shambles the original
incomplete import left me has never arrived. I continue to press Europa, but
they are unresponsive.
Your experience - and that of others who've already replied to your note - is the
same as mine: the problem lies fundamentally with Ray Bedford - who simply
does not provide support to both individual builders and, I suspect, the local
agents or dealers - and Keith Wilson who never answers calls or e-mails and seems
dangerously uncaring about the increasingly bad reputation this customer
treatment is having on their future sales prospects.
Like you, my real fear was that they would go bust before they'd delivered my missing
parts, in which case I'd be left with a very expensive pile of useless
assorted fibreglass bits. They exhibit all the symptoms of a small company juggling
unsuccessfully with cash flow, robbing Peter to pay Paul.
I still have mixed feelings about responding to this thread: on the one hand the
aircraft is excellent and I'm a fervent supporter of successful innovation in
aviation and really don't feel comfortablke about hazarding the fragile nature
of business reputations. On the other hand, I know there is deep discontent
within the Aussie Europa builders over company customer support, and your thread
has already shown similar concerns elsewhere, and I'd feel very bad if nothing
had been said and then a new builder came in, paid his cash, didn't get
his parts, and the company went broke. I guess my hope is that raising the visibility
of the problem through this forum may trigger, at last, some response
from Keith Wilson to resolve these problems (note cautious use of the word "may")
and my advice to prospective buyers is to ask very hard questions about deliveries,
guarantees and whatever other safety precautions you can take before
parting with your money.
Keith Hartley
Australian owner of a nearly complete pile of bits
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Possible Problems at Europa |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Keith Hartley" <tarnish7@iprimus.com.au>
Nigel,
Good comment: I wondered whether I was just a bad case, but clearly I'm
not. I ordered my XS Mono accellerated kit over 2 years ago and and paid
for it more than 18 months ago. When I paid I collected what I thought was
the complete kit bar the cockpit module and shipped it to Australia along
with my personal goods as I emigrated. On arrival, a detailed invemntory
check showed I was short of cockpit module, complete tailplane kit, flaps,
ailerons and rudder. Europa immediately acknowledged the shortfall and
promised to sort quickly. After much e-mailing, phoning and increasingly
bitter hassle, the missing components finally arrived last week: the
necessary support paperwork - invoicing, parts listings etc. - needed to
help sort out the customs duty and tax shambles the original incomplete
import left me has never arrived. I continue to press Europa, but they are
unresponsive.
Your experience - and that of others who've already replied to your note -
is the same as mine: the problem lies fundamentally with Ray Bedford - who
simply does not provide support to both individual builders and, I suspect,
the local agents or dealers - and Keith Wilson who never answers calls or
e-mails and seems dangerously uncaring about the increasingly bad reputation
this customer treatment is having on their future sales prospects.
Like you, my real fear was that they would go bust before they'd delivered
my missing parts, in which case I'd be left with a very expensive pile of
useless assorted fibreglass bits. They exhibit all the symptoms of a small
company juggling unsuccessfully with cash flow, robbing Peter to pay Paul.
I still have mixed feelings about responding to this thread: on the one
hand the aircraft is excellent and I'm a fervent supporter of successful
innovation in aviation and really don't feel comfortablke about hazarding
the fragile nature of business reputations. On the other hand, I know there
is deep discontent within the Aussie Europa builders over company customer
support, and your thread has already shown similar concerns elsewhere, and
I'd feel very bad if nothing had been said and then a new builder came in,
paid his cash, didn't get his parts, and the company went broke. I guess my
hope is that raising the visibility of the problem through this forum may
trigger, at last, some response from Keith Wilson to resolve these problems
(note cautious use of the word "may") and my advice to prospective buyers is
to ask very hard questions about deliveries, guarantees and whatever other
safety precautions you can take before parting with your money.
Keith Hartley
Australian owner of a nearly complete pile of bits
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