Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:28 AM - Re: Open Letter to John Hurst (Rob Huntington)
2. 05:55 AM - Re:Paint opinion (Troy Maynor)
3. 06:38 AM - glasscloth (Graham Singleton)
4. 06:39 AM - Water hoses (Annalights@aol.com)
5. 08:30 AM - Re: Re:Paint opinion (Fred Fillinger)
6. 10:42 AM - EIS versus Steam Gauges (I-K Technologies (Ralph Krongold))
7. 10:56 AM - Re: Re:Paint opinion (Fergus Kyle)
8. 11:41 AM - Re: Re:Paint opinion (James H Nelson)
9. 11:46 AM - 914 for sale (owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com)
10. 11:55 AM - Re: 914 for sale (UVTReith@aol.com)
11. 05:27 PM - Re: Re:Paint opinion (Fred Fillinger)
12. 06:53 PM - Re: Re:Paint opinion (Fred Fillinger)
13. 07:26 PM - Re: Re:Paint opinion (James Nelson)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Open Letter to John Hurst |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Rob Huntington <robertodue2002@yahoo.com>
Dear John,
I would like to echo Mike Duane's sentiments and hope you have Weathered the Storm.
John your efforts have been instrumental in the success of the Europa design
in the US, and I hope that you can continue to provide your expertise to the
Europa builders in some capacity.
Rob Huntington
Phoenix Composites
Rob Huntington
Phoenix Composites
4863 E. Falcon Dr.
Mesa, AZ 85215
ph (480) 924-9750
email robertodue2002@yahoo.com
---------------------------------
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re:Paint opinion |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Troy Maynor" <wingnut54@charter.net>
Europa-List message posted by: "Dave Anderson" <dja767@charter.net>
<<<PPG K36 acrylic primer - wet sanded to a very smooth finish
PPG DP40 epoxy primer sealer - gray green for darker color UV protection
(not intended
to sand, but able to fix runs, etc.
PPG Concept base white acrylic urethane top coat (2 coats) - white to be as
cool
as possible for the composite structure.>>>>
Dave,
Is the K36 intended to take the place of the sandable filler/primer UV
Smooth-prime made by Polyfiber. Just mainly wondering why you had to use two
primers and assume the Polyfiber product was not used. I already have
applied Smooth-prime to most of my surfaces and plan to sand it with about
180 gt then let the body shop use the recommended primer for the paint
used.(leaning towards the PPG stuff at present.) What grit paper did you use
on the K36?
Troy Maynor
N120EU Monowheel Classic
Left to finish:
Paint,interior,engine install, wiring.
I've stopped 595 spam messages. You can too!
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Message 3
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--> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton <graham@gflight.f9.co.uk>
At 23:56 18/08/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List Digest: 20 Msgs - 08/17/04
>
>--> Europa-List message posted by: DuaneFamly@aol.com
>
>On the UNI.....did you mean to type RA7715? This is from the ACS cataloge,
>pg30.
>
>
>Mike Duane A207
Duane,
I did miss type but so have A Spruce. I don't know if Rutan changed his
numbers.
Rutan calls it BID, ordering number RA5277BID. The UNI is 92122, or RA5177
UNI. I assume RA7715 is the same. Best ask for Interglas 92122, made in
Ulm, Germany (;-(
These details are important, cloth sized for polyester is not good enough
for epoxy, it doesn't wet out properly. If your cloth doesn't go virtually
translucent when you wet it with resin, something is wrong.
Graham
Message 4
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--> Europa-List message posted by: Annalights@aol.com
Does anyone know where water hoses for a Classic with 912 80hp can be obtained.
(Preferably a UK source but anywhere would do)In particular I need the two radiator
hoses that go from the port rad to the pump and the one from the stbd rad
to the expansion chamber.
Any help and advice would be much appreciated.
Here's hoping!
Pat Griffin
G PATZ
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re:Paint opinion |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" <n3eu@comcast.net>
> I already have
> applied Smooth-prime to most of my surfaces and plan to sand it with
about
> 180 gt then let the body shop use the recommended primer for the
paint
> used.
Just an observation here if weight is a concern. A least one famous
auto paint mfr says a waterborne 2-part primer (Smooth-prime is in
that category) is OK under their topcoat products. Solvent automotive
primers adhere in one of two ways, and the above will have to be tooth
adhesion. Or the primer can be a solvent-type to which the top coat
will also chemically adhere. There may no way to really know that any
topcoat over Smooth Prime will tooth adhere any differently that to an
intermediate solvent primer.
An auto body shop may have no experience with cured primers -- I do re
airplanes -- which are chemically dead for solvent topcoat adhesion,
and they may prefer to prime with such-and-such because that's what
the can of topcoat says, or play it safe using judgment I understand.
The question I think is more appropriate for tech people at the paint
mfr, if such is available and desired, especially for self-shooters
not talking to a body shop needing no technical instructions from
customers. :-)
Reg,
Fred F.
Message 6
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| Subject: | EIS versus Steam Gauges |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "I-K Technologies (Ralph Krongold)" <2pilots@comcast.net>
From: "Ralph Krongold" <Ralph@i-ktechnologies.com>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: EIS versus Steam Gauges
Europa-List message posted by: "Ralph Krongold" <Ralph@i-ktechnologies.com>
Ron - are you referring to the specific instrument called the "EIS" from
Grand Rapids . . . or do you mean ANY generic EIS (Electronic Instrument
System)? If your question is not about a specific system, please be aware
that there are electronic instrument systems (such as the IK2000, AIM-1 &
AIM-2 -- sorry for the plug -- as well as those from other companies) that
are specifically designed to operate during the transient conditions that
occur during engine cranking and start-up. This is critical so that an
immediate indication of oil pressure is available when the engine starts.
You might want to check with different EIS manufacturers about this.
Ralph Krongold
I-K Technologies
www.i-ktechnologies.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ronald J. Parigoris" <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Subject: Europa-List: EIS
Anyone ot there flying with just an EIS with no Engine Steam Gauges and find
it acceptable? thx. Ron Parigoris
Time: 01:32:05 PM PST US
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl_p@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: EIS versus Steam Gauges
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Carl Pattinson" <carl_p@ntlworld.com>
If you fit an EIS just make sure you have a means to isolate it from the
main bus during startup. We have found that if the EIS is not switched off
on startup (starter cranking) the spikes often scramble the memory and
alarms which take about 20 mins to reset again. The worst thing is the reset
ususlly causes the screen contrast to go to zero and then everything becomes
impossible to ajust until the screen contrast can be increased (ie: the
display appears to go blank).
I would suggest that a momentary disconnect button is fitted close to the
starter switch so that temporary isolation can be effected, though a more
sophisticated setup could include an isolator solenoid connected to the
starter solenoid.
An manually operated isolator switch (which is what we have) is not a very
satisfactory solution as its very easy to leave it on during startup and
also easy to forget to turn it back on after startup.
Our EIS is currently playing up in that the oil pressure and temp readings
are jumping about by a couple of degrees/ PSI. We suspect this is possibly a
prelude to the oil pressure sensor failing which I believe is a common
problem with Rotax 912 engines (unless someone else has a better
explanation).
It would be nice to have the luxury of both analogue and digital readings
but not very practical.
Otherwise the EIS is very good and we would recommend it.Ours is the Grand
Rapids version.
Carl & Dot
G-LABS
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re:Paint opinion |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Fillinger" <n3eu@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re:Paint opinion
| --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" <n3eu@comcast.net>
|
| > I already have
| > applied Smooth-prime to most of my surfaces and plan to sand it with
| about
| > 180 gt then let the body shop use the recommended primer for the
| paint
| > used.
|
| Just an observation here if weight is a concern. A least one famous
| auto paint mfr says a waterborne 2-part primer (Smooth-prime is in
| that category) is OK under their topcoat products. Solvent automotive
| primers adhere in one of two ways, and the above will have to be tooth
| adhesion. Or the primer can be a solvent-type to which the top coat
| will also chemically adhere. There may no way to really know that any
| topcoat over Smooth Prime will tooth adhere any differently that to an
| intermediate solvent primer.
|
| An auto body shop may have no experience with cured primers -- I do re
| airplanes -- which are chemically dead for solvent topcoat adhesion,
| and they may prefer to prime with such-and-such because that's what
| the can of topcoat says, or play it safe using judgment I understand.
| The question I think is more appropriate for tech people at the paint
| mfr, if such is available and desired, especially for self-shooters
| not talking to a body shop needing no technical instructions from
| customers. :-)
|
| Reg,
| Fred F.
|
Cheers, Frederick,
I appreciate your advice in this topic, but am having trouble
with sentence structure..... may I infer that the two methods of adhesion in
the products under consideration are (a) Tooth adhesion and (b) Chemical
adhesion?
I plan on leaving the spray work to a professional (commercial)
painter as I've seen my work........ How is an ignoramus to know which is
which? Is there a codeword which differentiates one from the other? The
advice I got (which seemed repeatable from several gurus) was that one
should leave the choice of topcoat to the fellow doing it - and in that case
I naturally want to smooth the surface with a compatible filler/undercoat.
Which (tooth/chemical) form of adhesion is best if they are not
both present, and how do I voice my question to the provider?
Bets,
Ferg A064
PS I took a sample stab to the spraymaster and he laughed me all the way
back to the parking lot, so I guess there's no hurry answering.............
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re:Paint opinion |
--> Europa-List message posted by: James H Nelson <europajim@juno.com>
Troy,
That is how I finished my plane. I let the Poly fiber filler dry
completely!!!! It worked very nice. I then used PPG's primer and color
coat to finish it off. I used a technique called wet on wet. Applied
the primer (white) and about 20 minutes later applied the color coat. It
looks great and after two years just like new. I think it is a bit
heavy as I used my local car painter to put it on. Poly fiber personal
say to use the primer that goes with the top coat you are going to use.
Jim Nelson
N15JN
Message 9
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--> Europa-List message posted by:
My ROTAX 914 UL engine is for sale, as I am planning to re-engine the aircraft.
Total time since new : 288 hours
If you are interested, please contact me off forum or call me at 33 6 1416 7115.
The engine can be test flown prior to purchase. Aircraft based in Chavenay (Paris
area)
Remi Guerner
F-PGKL, XS 914 monowheel, s/n 395, 288 hours.
My ROTAX 914 UL engine is for sale, as I am planning to re-engine the aircraft.
Total time since new: 288 hours
If you are interested, please contact me off forum or call me at 33 6 1416 7115.
The engine can be test flown prior to purchase. Aircraft based in Chavenay (Paris
area)
Remi Guerner
F-PGKL, XS 914 monowheel, s/n 395, 288 hours.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: 914 for sale |
--> Europa-List message posted by: UVTReith@aol.com
In einer eMail vom 19.08.2004 20:48:05 Westeurop=E4ische Sommerzeit schreibt
owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com:
--> Europa-List message posted by:
My ROTAX 914 UL engine is for sale, as I am planning to re-engine the
aircraft.
Total time since new : 288 hours
If you are interested, please contact me off forum or call me at 33 6 1416
7115. The engine can be test flown prior to purchase. Aircraft based in
Chavenay (Paris area)
Remi Guerner
F-PGKL, XS 914 monowheel, s/n 395, 288 hours.
My ROTAX 914 UL engine is for sale, as I am planning to re-engine the
aircraft.
Total time since new: 288 hours
If you are interested, please contact me off forum or call me at 33 6 1416
7115. The engine can be test flown prior to purchase. Aircraft based in
Chavenay (Paris area)
Remi Guerner
F-PGKL, XS 914 monowheel, s/n 395, 288 hours.
Dear Remi,
can you tell me, why you will get rid of the 914T and what type of engine
you will install now ?
Kind Regards,
Bruno Reith / Europa Aircraft distributor Germany
_uvtreith@aol.com_ (mailto:uvtreith@aol.com)
_www.europa-aircraft.de_ (http://www.europa-aircraft.de)
Kit-No. 379 XS Monowheel
Will be finished during winter time
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re:Paint opinion |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" <n3eu@comcast.net>
Fergus Kyle wrote:
> I appreciate your advice in this topic, but am having
trouble
> with sentence structure..... may I infer that the two methods of
adhesion in
> the products under consideration are (a) Tooth adhesion and (b)
Chemical
> adhesion?
All I meant was there will always be tooth adhesion, but two-part
epoxy primers are generally impervious to paint solvents. You can
test anything with the thinner to be used in the primer or topocoat,
if applied directly. How you can test adhesion of anything to a
waterborne coating like Smooth Prime, I dunno; is a test shoot that
lasts a year OK?
I did a sand-and-paint down to a solvent 2-part epoxy primer that was
only a couple years old, and then Imron topcoat. Still good after 19
years in the sun. But another time I used the same primer and shot
another poly, but the next day. Now the primer mfr said if you do
that, abrade it with Kraft paper. Huh? Well, I figured do what they
say, so I bought actual Kraft paper and sort of abraded it, I guess.
The topcoat mfr doesn't say it's OK to use this primer either, but
that poly is still good today.
I didn't find out until recently that this primer I still use on metal
stuff (re adhesion) needs days of cure before you can wet sand it,
though it's no longer tacky overnight. If you wet-sand it too soon,
it balls up in the paper; it may be the phenomenon where epoxy can
draw in water by osmosis not absorption. Dry Kraft paper must break
the surface tension if still soft enough, which is the minimum
required for topcoating.
I've also never had trouble with any poly or acrylic, over common
spray-can primer on small plastic fairings. No sense to me in mixing
gun-clogging epoxy for small parts which don't need the advantages of
that paint.
> I plan on leaving the spray work to a professional
(commercial)
> painter .......and how do I voice my question to the provider?
I recall a sign posted in an auto repair shop, "Watching -
Free....Questions - $10....Suggestions - Forbidden."
Reg,
Fred F.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re:Paint opinion |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" <n3eu@comcast.net>
James H Nelson wrote:
> I used a technique called wet on wet. Applied
> the primer (white) and about 20 minutes later applied the color
coat. It
> looks great and after two years just like new. I think it is a bit
> heavy as I used my local car painter to put it on.
Suggest a footnote here, for general consumption. Wet-on-wet should
only be done if the paint mfr permits it for given products.
Otherwise, if a topcoat cures too rapidly, there's danger of solvent
entrainment according to their literature, which can cause the job to
fail quickly in ugly ways.
The technique has nothing to do with appearance, if that was an
implication, and I think an amateur shooter, tending to apply heavier
than a pro would dare, could get bad results. On the positive side, a
mud-cracked or spider-webby finish in a few years will attract more
lookers to one's plane.
> Poly fiber personal say to use the primer that goes with the top
coat you are going to use.
That is interesting, based upon Tony K's exp where the waterborne
topcoat just about fell off the airplane, in sheets, shot with Smooth
Prime! Let's see, primer on primer; use any primer made by any mfr;
just get any intercoat in between our primer and their topcoat. :-)
Reg,
Fred
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re:Paint opinion |
--> Europa-List message posted by: James Nelson <europajim@juno.com>
Hi Fred,
Yes, all is possible but with a urethane paint, doesn't it cure
by chemical reaction rather than by evaporation of a solvent? I used the
PPG Concept paint on mine and it seems to be acting as tho it won't leave
anytime soon. I've used some polishing compound on it and wax and it
seems to be very tough.
Jim Nelson
On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 21:59:05 -0400 "Fred Fillinger" <n3eu@comcast.net>
writes:
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger"
> <n3eu@comcast.net>
>
> James H Nelson wrote:
> > I used a technique called wet on wet. Applied
> > the primer (white) and about 20 minutes later applied the color
> coat. It
> > looks great and after two years just like new. I think it is a
> bit
> > heavy as I used my local car painter to put it on.
>
> Suggest a footnote here, for general consumption. Wet-on-wet
> should
> only be done if the paint mfr permits it for given products.
> Otherwise, if a topcoat cures too rapidly, there's danger of
> solvent
> entrainment according to their literature, which can cause the job
> to
> fail quickly in ugly ways.
>
> The technique has nothing to do with appearance, if that was an
> implication, and I think an amateur shooter, tending to apply
> heavier
> than a pro would dare, could get bad results. On the positive side,
> a
> mud-cracked or spider-webby finish in a few years will attract more
> lookers to one's plane.
>
> > Poly fiber personal say to use the primer that goes with the top
> coat you are going to use.
>
> That is interesting, based upon Tony K's exp where the waterborne
> topcoat just about fell off the airplane, in sheets, shot with
> Smooth
> Prime! Let's see, primer on primer; use any primer made by any
> mfr;
> just get any intercoat in between our primer and their topcoat.
> :-)
>
> Reg,
> Fred
>
>
>
=
>
=
>
=
>
=
>
>
>
>
>
>
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