Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:32 AM - Re: expansion tank (Annalights@aol.com)
2. 12:48 AM - Re: Battery Compartment in Rear - Fixing it down. (Richard Iddon)
3. 12:59 AM - Re: Battery Compartment in Rear (bryan allsop)
4. 02:24 AM - Battery Compartment in Rear (Richard Holder)
5. 03:01 AM - Battery position (Peter Field)
6. 03:02 AM - Additional mechanical drive for the vacuum pump ()
7. 03:51 AM - Re: Battery position (nigel charles)
8. 07:53 AM - Re: expansion tank (Carpenter, Matt)
9. 08:46 AM - Woodcomp/Kremen propellers (David Joyce)
10. 08:48 AM - Re: Battery position (David Joyce)
11. 09:41 AM - Re: Battery position (owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com)
12. 09:49 AM - Re: Battery position (Fergus Kyle)
13. 09:53 AM - Re: expansion tank (Davidghillam@aol.com)
14. 10:01 AM - Re: Battery Compartment in Rear (Davidghillam@aol.com)
15. 10:23 AM - Re: Woodcomp/Kremen propellers (Peter Grant)
16. 10:24 AM - Re: Woodcomp/Kremen propellers (Peter Grant)
17. 10:26 AM - Re: expansion tank (Fred Fillinger)
18. 10:51 AM - Re: Hand prop a Rotax? (Rob Housman)
19. 11:04 AM - Re: Re: Hand prop a Rotax? (Chris Beck)
20. 11:05 AM - Re: expansion tank (Carpenter, Matt)
21. 11:25 AM - Re: Re: Hand prop a Rotax? (owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com)
22. 11:43 AM - Fw: FW: Single Sky. All of GA to pay? (Rowland Carson)
23. 04:01 PM - Re: Woodcomp/Kremen propellers (Duncan McFadyean)
24. 04:23 PM - Re: Re: Hand prop a Rotax? (Duncan McFadyean)
25. 06:52 PM - Aero-News: 'Best (and Worst) of Oshkosh 2004 (MJKTuck@cs.com)
26. 08:30 PM - Re: Battery Compartment in Rear - Fixing it down. (Robert Berube)
27. 09:02 PM - Re: Aero-News: 'Best (and Worst) of Oshkosh 2004 (Fred Fillinger)
28. 09:26 PM - Re: Battery Compartment in Rear - Fixing it down. (Mike Parkin)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: expansion tank |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Annalights@aol.com
Graham,
Are you sure the water gets sucked back in when it cools? I can see how the water
gets pushed up into the expansion tank when it expands but the pressure cap
will be closed when the water cools thus stopping the water from returning from
the expansion tank.
Patrick Griffin
Message 2
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| Subject: | Battery Compartment in Rear - Fixing it down. |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Richard Iddon" <riddon@sent.com>
Bob,
To mount my battery in the back, I moulded a battery tray about 1 inch
deep using a block of wood as a former and added a flange hanging down
around each side. Once set and the wood removed, I trimmed the flange to
allow the tray to sit horizontally on the fuse floor and used a couple
of layers of bid to bond it into place. I cut a slot midway along the
flange front and back and use a luggage strap through these and around
the battery to hold it securely.
Having said this, as a result of the recent posts on the subject, I am
now thinking of moving it to the firewall so will have to reinvent the
wheel once more.
Hope this helps.
Richard Iddon. G-RIXS
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JR (Bob)
Gowing
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Battery Compartment in Rear - Fixing it down.
--> Europa-List message posted by: "JR (Bob) Gowing"
<gowingjr@acr.net.au>
Dear Alan, Richard, Fred and Bob B,
The remarks have been useful and I thank you all.
What you have pointed out is that I am a bit ahead of myself - it is a
job I
need to leave until dealing with C of G!
But with a rear C of G it seems to me Richard might fly fast but I would
not
like to have to use every bit of trim leaving no room for error in
loading
fully. I am no expert but would be considering moving the battery. And
Fred's RG Battery I have noted for later. Bob's general remarks are
reassuring.
So you have put me int the right direction. Thank you all.
But I did not ask the right question; I was thinking that it would be
easier
to fix the holder into place while the lower fuselage sat in Chuckpop's
cradle and before I bonded in the extended baggage bay.
What I was interested in at the time and still need to find out, I hate
to
admit, was the detail of housing the battery and holding it still,
something
that we who are still building, will all have to face sometime.
Thank you all and good wishes from
JR (Bob) Gowing, UK Kit No 327 in Oz
snipped and do not archive
==
==
==
==
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Battery Compartment in Rear |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "bryan allsop" <info@blackballclub.fsnet.co.uk>
Hi Richard,
I found the you need to have the battery in the engine bay with a 912S on a
XS.
The XS was originally flown by by the factory with a Turbo 914, which is a
lot heavier than the 912. This meant that the battery was positioned behind
the luggage bay for balance. The XS manual forgot to recognise this for 912
applications.
This is a common feature with 912 type installations. You can stick the
battery in the engine bay with confidence and chuck out a few pounds of
copper wire at the same time, with absolute confidence.
The great thing is that the weight balance moves into a position where it is
almost impossible to go outside thereafter.
Cheers Bryan----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Iddon" <riddon@sent.com>
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Battery Compartment in Rear
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Richard Iddon" <riddon@sent.com>
>
> On a tangent to this discussion, my battery is in the back but I find I
> have to trim nose down all the time. My indicator is always in the lower
> third of it's range and sometimes right at the stop if fully loaded with
> luggage. My empty c of g is 59.53 inches aft of datum. I wondered if
> it is worth my while trying moving the battery forward? Anyone tried
> this?
>
> Richard Iddon G-RIXS
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Housman
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Battery Compartment in Rear
>
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Rob Housman" <RobH@hyperion-ef.com>
>
> For my Rotax 914 installation the battery is located just aft of the
> baggage
> bay bulkhead, starboard side. There were two reasons for selecting this
> location - 1) Kim Prout, who knows a few things about the aircraft and
> is my
> EAA Technical Advisor, suggested this location because his first Europa
> was
> slightly nose heavy, and 2) the factory's wiring harness has the fat
> wires
> start at that location.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Rob Housman
> Europa XS Tri-Gear A070
> Airframe complete
> Irvine, CA
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of JR (Bob)
> Gowing
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Europa-List: Battery Compartment in Rear
>
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "JR (Bob) Gowing"
> <gowingjr@acr.net.au>
>
> Among the jobs to do before putting the top on you might think about the
> battery compartment - what are builders doing to house their batteries
> please?
>
> J R (Bob) Gowing, UK Kit 327 in Oz finalising flaps and thinking of
> installing extended baggage bay moulding fitted with the ribs.
> do not archive
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Al Stills" <astills@senecawholesale.com>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Graphics shop
>
>
> > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Al Stills"
> <astills@senecawholesale.com>
> >
> > Paul
> > I used Callie at the following E-mail. Great Job and
> > very reasonable. info@hobbies-n-stuff.com She's the
> > graphics designer for hobbies n stuff in Albuquerque NM.
> > Al Stills
> > A095
> >
> >
>
>
> ==
> ==
> ==
> ==
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Battery Compartment in Rear |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder <rholder@avnet.co.uk>
I have done some small calculations in respect of the W&B of G-OWWW which
currently has the battery in the rear.
For the purpose of calculation I have said the battery weighs 12 pounds and
moving it forward to the firewall is a distance of 7 feet. I suspect that
these are low and high respectively - which would make my numbers still
reasonable.
For the most forward CofG case (two pilots 189 pounds, no baggage, no fuel)
the CofG moves from 58.26 to 57.45 when the battery is moved forward.
For the most rearwards CofG case (one 121 pound pilot, full baggage, full
fuel) the CofG moves from 62.41 to 61.56
So the battery needs to be at the back to allow for the low fuel situation.
The battery change makes a significant difference :-(
I do agree though that in the cruise (912S, Airmaster, 25.5 in MAP, 125
indicated knots, in all full and part fuelled situations, the trim has to be
wound forward almost all the way.
Maybe putting the battery in the P2's lap would be best !
Richard
Richard F.W. Holder 01279 842804 (POTS)
Bell House, Bell Lane, 01279 842942 (fax)
Widford, Ware, Herts, 07860 367423 (mobile)
SG12 8SH email : rholder@avnet.co.uk
Europa Classic Tri-gear : G-OWWW, High Cross
PA-28-181 : Piper Archer : G-JANA, EGSG (Stapleford)
Message 5
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| Subject: | Battery position |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Field" <peter.field@hgfield.co.uk>
We have also yet to decide where to put the battery. One of our
considerations has been that it will be easier to fit an external power
point behind the cockpit which would limit the battery position to a similar
place.
The question to all those who are flying is how often have you arrived to
fly your aircraft to find the battery is flat?
Is an external power source point worth having?
It certainly has been in the past with our Piper Archer, when we have
managed to drain the power from reluctant starts!
Peter Field
Kit 566
Message 6
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| Subject: | Additional mechanical drive for the vacuum pump |
3.60 ALT_MED Misspelled medication name
--> Europa-List message posted by: <Herbert.Habersatter@weiz.cc>
Dear Fred, dear Paul
Thank you for your comments but in the moment I don't want to discuss about the
reliability of vacuum pumps. The only reason why I want to use vacuum driven
instruments is - I have it already. But on the other hand, if I would use only
electric instruments, there would be a problem with the amount of electricity.
And driving an additional alternator you have the same problem with the place
under the Europa XS cowling.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Battery position |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "nigel charles" <nigelcharles@tiscali.co.uk>
>Is an external power source point worth having?<
If you don't an engine start with a flat aircraft battery will not be
possible as you cannot hand crank a Rotax.
Rear C of G with a monowheel is helpful with ground handling. With a rear
mounted battery I can only get the aircraft out of trim if I have full
baggage, full fuel and no passenger (not a likely scenario). If this was the
case it would be possible to strap a bag on the passenger seat.
Nigel Charles
Message 8
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Carpenter, Matt" <mcarpenter@concordefs.com>
It will suck the antifreeze back. About 6 months ago, I had a overheating
problem one hot day when flying. It
pushed all the fluid it could into the overflow box. Luckily I was landing
in 3 minutes.. after I shutdown the engine I pulled the top off.. and
watched the overflow box begin to drain back into the engine. I was
surprised that this would
happen.
Matt Carpenter
A138
Amarillo, Texas
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
Annalights@aol.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: expansion tank
--> Europa-List message posted by: Annalights@aol.com
Graham,
Are you sure the water gets sucked back in when it cools? I can see how the
water gets pushed up into the expansion tank when it expands but the
pressure cap will be closed when the water cools thus stopping the water
from returning from the expansion tank.
Patrick Griffin
Message 9
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| Subject: | Woodcomp/Kremen propellers |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
I am pleased to say that Frances Donaldson has just increased the blade life limit
on the SR2000 prop from 3 yrs to 6 yrs and said he expects to be able to remove
that limit altogether in a couple of years or so. This has made it a commercial
proposition to sell them in the UK and a major player in the UK GA marketpkace
is pursuing the possibility of becoming their agent.
The Europa 6 Nations tour ( G-HOFC, G-RIXS, G-PTAG, G-NEAT & G-XSDJ) visited
the Kremen factory last week and were impressed and unanimous that when
their current props gave up they would reequip with a Kremen. I understand that
Bryan Alsop has just bought one for 2600 Euros which included spinner, wiring,
CS unit, delivery and instruments, with total weight of 9.8 Kg
David Joyce, G-XSDJ
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Battery position |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
Peter, For me the answer is never in 2 1/2 yrs. The gas recombinant battery
has not only an incredible torquing power but also an amazing capacity to
retain charge. I fitted a connector for recharging the battery, that is
accessible through the oil access flap, but I haven't had to use that
either. Some of the secret of course relates to the fact that flying the
Europa is so pleasurable that since it first flew, I have done four or five
times more hours annually than I ever did before!
Regards, David
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Field <peter.field@hgfield.co.uk>
> The question to all those who are flying is how often have you arrived to
> fly your aircraft to find the battery is flat?
Message 11
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--> Europa-List message posted by:
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Battery position
">Is an external power source point worth having?<
If you don't an engine start with a flat aircraft battery will not be
possible as you cannot hand crank a Rotax."
Over the past three months I have spoken to two pilots who have hand started
their 912 equipped aircraft.
I truly believe both of them.
One of them found that the rising tide was a great incentive !!
He landed on a beach to assist another microlight. When he came to restart
the engine the battery was flat and the waves were only a few metres away.
So he hand started it and saved the day !
He tells me he had done this previously and was surprised when I told it
could not be done !!!
Tim Houlihan
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Battery position |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Field" <peter.field@hgfield.co.uk>
Subject: Europa-List: Battery position
| --> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Field"
<peter.field@hgfield.co.uk>
|
| We have also yet to decide where to put the battery. One of our
| considerations has been that it will be easier to fit an external power
| point behind the cockpit which would limit the battery position to a
similar
| place.
|
| The question to all those who are flying is how often have you arrived to
| fly your aircraft to find the battery is flat?
| Is an external power source point worth having?
| It certainly has been in the past with our Piper Archer, when we have
| managed to drain the power from reluctant starts!
|
| Peter Field
| Kit 566
Peter,
Nigel Charles has said it all but my $.02 is that I see ti to be
necessary for long trips in relatively remote areas where a car might be the
only solution.
Having used ground power rigs on most of my flying (military and airline) I
have endured many a slip in trying to get a smooth transition to departure.
It is obvious to me that it often presents an unexpected danger
to the GP operator. he is tempted to relax and leap to the recovery mode to
retract the GPU from the aircraft after prop/turbine is running. The safest
thing is to position him well clear of danger bits, and in the case of the
Europa, I deem this to be [a] behind the wing and [b] portside where I can
see him.
For that reason I have reversed the order of fuel portside and
battery starboard. I have installed Bob Nuckolls' Piper-style GP inlet just
behind the cowling line and just below the top/canoe join. That way he can
be behind the port wing, and when done I can reach forward from the seat and
retract the GP plug myself. The battery will be only inches away, along with
the batt and start switches and other powerphernalia.
Good Luck
Ferg
A064
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: expansion tank |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Davidghillam@aol.com
In a message dated 8/27/04 3:54:42 PM GMT Daylight Time,
mcarpenter@concordefs.com writes:
Graham,
Are you sure the water gets sucked back in when it cools? I can see how the
water gets pushed up into the expansion tank when it expands but the
pressure cap will be closed when the water cools thus stopping the water
from returning from the expansion tank.
Patrick Griffin
If my understanding of physics is correct, it is not the water that expands
but air in the system. It contracts on cooling, sucking the water back.
David
G-SHSH
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Battery Compartment in Rear |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Davidghillam@aol.com
In a message dated 8/27/04 10:28:42 AM GMT Daylight Time,
rholder@avnet.co.uk writes:
For the purpose of calculation I have said the battery weighs 12 pounds and
moving it forward to the firewall is a distance of 7 feet. I suspect that
these are low and high respectively - which would make my numbers still
reasonable.
Did you take into account the weight of the extra cable required when
battery is in rear? This would also reduce the amount of payload available.
If
you do need to shift the C of G back, adding an equivalent weight (or less?) at
the tail could have the desired effect because of the long moment arm.
Short battery leads would seem to be an advantage.
David
G-SHSH
Message 15
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| Subject: | Woodcomp/Kremen propellers |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Grant" <peter@us-eurolink.co.uk>
Regards
Peter Grant
US-Eurolink Marketing Services Ltd
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
10 The Sidings, Horncastle LN9 5UA
Tel: 01507 523180 Fax: 01507 525888 Mobile: 07774 923160
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
This email is intended for the sole use of
the addressee. If you have received this email in error, please contact the
sender and delete the message. US-Eurolink Marketing Services Ltd accepts no
liability for misuse of this email however caused. Outgoing emails are
automatically checked by Norton Anti-Virus.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Joyce
Subject: Europa-List: Woodcomp/Kremen propellers
--> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
I am pleased to say that Frances Donaldson has just increased the blade life
limit on the SR2000 prop from 3 yrs to 6 yrs and said he expects to be able
to remove that limit altogether in a couple of years or so. This has made it
a commercial proposition to sell them in the UK and a major player in the UK
GA marketpkace is pursuing the possibility of becoming their agent.
The Europa 6 Nations tour ( G-HOFC, G-RIXS, G-PTAG, G-NEAT & G-XSDJ)
visited the Kremen factory last week and were impressed and unanimous that
when their current props gave up they would reequip with a Kremen. I
understand that Bryan Alsop has just bought one for 2600 Euros which
included spinner, wiring, CS unit, delivery and instruments, with total
weight of 9.8 Kg
David Joyce, G-XSDJ
Message 16
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| Subject: | Woodcomp/Kremen propellers |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Grant" <peter@us-eurolink.co.uk>
Why not write about for the magazine? Sounds like it could be of real
interest.
Regards
Peter Grant
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
10 The Sidings, Horncastle LN9 5UA
Tel: 01507 523180 Fax: 01507 525888 Mobile: 07774 923160
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
G-OGAN Europa TriGear Build No: 100
Rebuilt after serious prang with long XS wings and Airmaster VP prop. Rotax
912S. 150 hours.
This email is intended for the sole use of
the addressee. If you have received this email in error, please contact the
sender and delete the message. Sorry, no liability for misuse of this email
however caused. Outgoing emails are automatically checked by Norton
Anti-Virus.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Joyce
Subject: Europa-List: Woodcomp/Kremen propellers
--> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
I am pleased to say that Frances Donaldson has just increased the blade life
limit on the SR2000 prop from 3 yrs to 6 yrs and said he expects to be able
to remove that limit altogether in a couple of years or so. This has made it
a commercial proposition to sell them in the UK and a major player in the UK
GA marketpkace is pursuing the possibility of becoming their agent.
The Europa 6 Nations tour ( G-HOFC, G-RIXS, G-PTAG, G-NEAT & G-XSDJ)
visited the Kremen factory last week and were impressed and unanimous that
when their current props gave up they would reequip with a Kremen. I
understand that Bryan Alsop has just bought one for 2600 Euros which
included spinner, wiring, CS unit, delivery and instruments, with total
weight of 9.8 Kg
David Joyce, G-XSDJ
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: expansion tank |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" <n3eu@comcast.net>
> It will suck the antifreeze back. About 6 months ago, I had a
overheating
> problem one hot day when flying. It pushed all the fluid it could
into the
> overflow box.... after I shutdown the engine I pulled the top off..
and
> watched the overflow box begin to drain back into the engine. I was
> surprised that this would happen.
>
> Matt Carpenter
The little brass relief valve on the bottom of the "radiator" cap
isn't surprised. Take a look, and while at it, make sure the seating
area is not gunked up, to maintain max allowable pressure to reduce
boiling point.
Can you estimate how much add'l coolant was added to the overflow tank
by the overheating episode? The reason I ask is the overflow bottle I
have is a few oz. shy of what Rotax recommends, but I don't know if
that's just based on worst possible case. What they want, ratio of
bottle to engine contents, seems out of whack with what they do on
cars.
Reg,
Fred F.
Message 18
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| Subject: | RE: Hand prop a Rotax? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Rob Housman" <RobH@hyperion-ef.com>
Something is suspicious here.
According to Rotax the engine must be up to 1200 RPM in order to start, so
let's do some math. 1200 RPM divided by 2.43 (the gearbox ratio) is 494 RPM
at the prop. If we assume a 72 inch diameter prop, then the tip speed is
494 rev/min times 3.1416 times 72 in/rev divided by 12 in/ft equals 9312
ft/minute or 155 ft/sec. Hmmm, that's about 120 knots, and I don't think
any human can move a hand that fast let alone actually turn a prop against
the engine's compression.
So.... either Rotax is wrong or...well, draw your own conclusion.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Europa XS Tri-Gear A070
Airframe complete
Irvine, CA
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]
Subject:
--> Europa-List message posted by:
From: "Houlihan,Tim" <tim.houlihan@oce.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Battery position
">Is an external power source point worth having?<
If you don't an engine start with a flat aircraft battery will not be
possible as you cannot hand crank a Rotax."
Over the past three months I have spoken to two pilots who have hand started
their 912 equipped aircraft.
I truly believe both of them.
One of them found that the rising tide was a great incentive !!
He landed on a beach to assist another microlight. When he came to restart
the engine the battery was flat and the waves were only a few metres away.
So he hand started it and saved the day !
He tells me he had done this previously and was surprised when I told it
could not be done !!!
Tim Houlihan
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Hand prop a Rotax? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Chris Beck" <n9zes@execpc.com>
1200 RPM sounds awfully fast. Most CDI ignitions do require more speed
than an old magneto, but even then it's usually 600 RPM or a little
less. I don't think even the starter motor can crank the engine that
fast!
The trick is that if your battery is flat, you need to get enough RPM
to allow the alternator to generate electricity to make a spark. But,
if your batt. is low enough to not crank, it still may have enough
juice to make a spark if you hand prop.
Interesting.
Chris
A159
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Rob Housman" <RobH@hyperion-
ef.com>
>
> Something is suspicious here.
>
> According to Rotax the engine must be up to 1200 RPM in order to
start, so
> let's do some math. 1200 RPM divided by 2.43 (the gearbox ratio) is
494 RPM
> at the prop. If we assume a 72 inch diameter prop, then the tip
speed is
> 494 rev/min times 3.1416 times 72 in/rev divided by 12 in/ft equals
9312
> ft/minute or 155 ft/sec. Hmmm, that's about 120 knots, and I don't
think
> any human can move a hand that fast let alone actually turn a prop
against
> the engine's compression.
>
> So.... either Rotax is wrong or...well, draw your own conclusion.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Rob Housman
Message 20
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Carpenter, Matt" <mcarpenter@concordefs.com>
My overflow box is a little less then half empty. We found that if its any
more then 1/2 full then
it will full the box all the way up, and start to leak out.
After the engine cools, the "extra" fluid in the box returns to the engine.
When the engine is hot it fill the box a little past the 3/4 mark.
One thing I found out is that the overflow box had not has the MOD done to
the top.. so the first time
it became to full, it would blow the tube off the radiator cap (under the
cap actually). Allowing
fluid to spray everywhere, and allowing the heads to go over the 275F temp.
We reduced the amount of
fluid in the box and that took care of the problem.
Matt Carpenter
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Fred
Fillinger
Subject: Re: Europa-List: expansion tank
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" <n3eu@comcast.net>
> It will suck the antifreeze back. About 6 months ago, I had a
overheating
> problem one hot day when flying. It pushed all the fluid it could
into the
> overflow box.... after I shutdown the engine I pulled the top off..
and
> watched the overflow box begin to drain back into the engine. I was
> surprised that this would happen.
>
> Matt Carpenter
The little brass relief valve on the bottom of the "radiator" cap
isn't surprised. Take a look, and while at it, make sure the seating
area is not gunked up, to maintain max allowable pressure to reduce
boiling point.
Can you estimate how much add'l coolant was added to the overflow tank
by the overheating episode? The reason I ask is the overflow bottle I
have is a few oz. shy of what Rotax recommends, but I don't know if
that's just based on worst possible case. What they want, ratio of
bottle to engine contents, seems out of whack with what they do on
cars.
Reg,
Fred F.
Message 21
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--> Europa-List message posted by:
Subject: RE: Europa-List: RE: Hand prop a Rotax?
Hi
I thought this would start something.
Its a bit of a Bu**er when practical observation and the laws of physics
disagree.
I know both people involved quite well.
I know people ! its hard sums I have problems with!!
Tim
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Rob Housman
Subject: Europa-List: RE: Hand prop a Rotax?
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Rob Housman" <RobH@hyperion-ef.com>
Something is suspicious here.
According to Rotax the engine must be up to 1200 RPM in order to start, so
let's do some math. 1200 RPM divided by 2.43 (the gearbox ratio) is 494 RPM
at the prop. If we assume a 72 inch diameter prop, then the tip speed is
494 rev/min times 3.1416 times 72 in/rev divided by 12 in/ft equals 9312
ft/minute or 155 ft/sec. Hmmm, that's about 120 knots, and I don't think
any human can move a hand that fast let alone actually turn a prop against
the engine's compression.
So.... either Rotax is wrong or...well, draw your own conclusion.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Europa XS Tri-Gear A070
Airframe complete
Irvine, CA
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]
Subject:
--> Europa-List message posted by:
From: "Houlihan,Tim" <tim.houlihan@oce.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Battery position
">Is an external power source point worth having?<
If you don't an engine start with a flat aircraft battery will not be
possible as you cannot hand crank a Rotax."
Over the past three months I have spoken to two pilots who have hand started
their 912 equipped aircraft.
I truly believe both of them.
One of them found that the rising tide was a great incentive !!
He landed on a beach to assist another microlight. When he came to restart
the engine the battery was flat and the waves were only a few metres away.
So he hand started it and saved the day !
He tells me he had done this previously and was surprised when I told it
could not be done !!!
Tim Houlihan
Message 22
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| Subject: | Fwd: FW: Single Sky. All of GA to pay? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson <rowil@clara.net>
Folks - please note the following forwarded message:
>From: "Alan Burrows" <alan@kestrel-insurance.com>
>To: "'Europa Club Membership Secretary'" <europa-club@rowil.clara.net>
>Subject: FW: Single Sky. All of GA to pay?
>Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 09:52:33 +0100
>
>
>Hello Rowland
>
>I know you have mentioned this on the forum, but I would appreciate it
>if you could publish this in its entirety so that we can all respond. I
>don't know how to put documents on the forum so I hope you can do it for
>me. I heard one comment about should charity balloons also pay this
>ludicrous charge also..!
>Many Thanks
>
>Alan Burrows
>
>
>> >
>> > At a recent meeting the UK Department for Trade (DfT) revealed that
>> > under The European Single Skies Policy to which the UK signed up
>> > earlier this year, it has been decided that in future all aircraft,
>> > regardless of whether they are IFR or VFR, and with no minimum
>> > weight cut off, should be required to pay for use of 'services'
>> > provided, such as air traffic control, NOTAMS and weather
>> > information, search and rescue and so on, whether directly or
>> > indirectly used. The main criterion for charging is that the
>> > aircraft should land somewhere other than its take off point. No
>> > exemptions are offered in the draft proposals even for gliders,
>> > microlights or balloons. The proposals seem to have been drafted
>> > without any thought of their impact on General Aviation (GA) and are
>
>> > directed mostly at getting short haul airline flights to pay more
>> > and long haul overflying flights to pay less.
>> >
>> > Costs are to be apportioned on a total, not marginal, cost basis so
>> > that VFR aircraft will, for example, bear the cost of a VOR if it
>> > provides a service in uncontrolled airspace. This will be regardless
>
>> > of whether the aircraft actually uses the VOR.
>> >
>> > Nothing in the draft proposals suggests that even a light aircraft
>> > flying non radio, from one private strip in uncontrolled airspace to
>
>> > another will escape being charged. The proposals apply to all civil
>> > air traffic and General Aviation (GA) is not mentioned. It will,
>> > apparently, be up to the governments of individual states to decide
>> > how the payments are levied. Details may be found at
>> > http://www.eurocontrol.int/enprm/
>> >
>> > DfT is said to be sympathetic to the plight of GA and wants to
>> > exclude us as per the current airways charges exemptions but the
>> > regulations do not permit that unless the Government pays the costs
>> > thereof to the Air Navigation Service Providers - and it won't.
>> >
>> > Eurocontrol has been charged with undertaking a consultation on how
>> > the charges are to be made and has given European aviation until 17
>> > September to make representations. Not only has Eurocontrol imposed
>> > this outrageously short deadline, but it has also declined to
>> > recognise any representation unless it is made on its official form,
>
>> > a copy of which is attached. > I don't think that I need spell out
>> > what this proposal could do to European GA and I hope that you will
>> > feel moved to do what you can to argue for the retention of the
>> > current exemption for all VFR aircraft and for IFR aircraft below
>> > the minimum weight for incurring Eurocontrol En Route charges. If
>> > you are willing to join in, I ask that you now undertake two
>> > tasks:
>> >
>> > 1. Complete and return the attached form to Eurocontrol by e mail,
>> > post or fax, as shown on the form. You may like to consult whatever
>> > aviation body you belong to as to the detail of your objections and
>> > they may have already formulated some points that they are making in
>
>> > their own representations. I have set out on an attached sheet three
>
>> > fundamental points that I regard as being central to the issue. The
>> > list, however, is neither exhaustive nor authoritative: it should
>> > not be copied out word for word or it is likely to be dismissed as a
>
>> > mere duplicate. Set out your objections, remembering all the time,
>> > that it is more important to get some sort of objection properly
>> > registered than to spend days polishing up your irrefutable
>> > arguments and then failing to get the form back in time. If you can
>> > also find the time to copy your objections to your MEPs and MP, so
>> > much the better.
>> >
>> > 2. Contact as many GA colleagues as possible, by e mail, or
>> > however. Send them a copy of the form and ask them to object and to
>> > distribute the form and a similar request to all of their contacts.
>> > An avalanche of objections from all over Europe would give
>> > Eurocontrol a lot to think about.
>> >
>> > Please remember that time is desperately short and immediate action
>> > is needed.
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> >
>> > Nigel Everett
>> >
>>
>
>Attachment converted: PowerBook HD:Sgle sky response form.doc
>(WDBN/MSWD) (00112B09)
>
The text of the above-cited attachment (ie Nigel Everett's response) is:
>SOME COMMENTS, REASONS AND PROPOSALS REGARDING EUROCONTROL'S DRAFT
>IMPLEMENTING RULES ON A COMMON CHARGING SCHEME FOR NAVIGATION
>SERVICES.
>
>
>The Recitals (Numbered 1 to 14), first comment
>
>COMMENT
>Nowhere is General Aviation (GA) even mentioned in the recitals.
>
>REASONS
>GA represents some six times as many registered aircraft in Europe
>as does Civil Air Traffic (CAT) and yet its very existence is
>apparently to be ignored in the reasoning behind these deliberations.
>
>PROPOSED CHANGE
>Add Recital No 15 as follows:
>
>(15) General Aviation (GA) provides a vital economic and leisure
>contribution to European life, facilitating transport of individual
>business people, training of future airline pilots, small air taxi
>services, medical evacuation, surveillance operations, sporting
>opportunities and a host of similar advantages. GA mostly uses
>Avgas, rather than Jet fuel and as such it already makes a
>substantial contribution in the taxes payable upon Avgas that Civil
>Air Transport (CAT) mostly does not. GA's importance and its special
>tax contribution are acknowledged and Charges shall not be imposed
>upon GA that present more of a burden than it already carries.
>
>
>The Recitals (Numbered 1 to 14), second comment
>
>COMMENT
>No mention is made of the exemptions from Eurocontrol charges
>currently enjoyed by GA, namely the exemption of VFR flights and the
>exemption of all aircraft of less than 2 tonnes MTOW.
>
>REASONS
>There are very good reasons for the perpetuation of these exemptions:
>
>1. The GA industry would be unable to bear the cost of the proposed
>charges and would therefore decline, to the substantial disadvantage
>of European economy and social life and the loss of human rights.
>
>2. Either a blanket per aircraft or per aviator charge would have to
>be imposed for reasons of bureaucratic simplicity or a charging
>system based upon distance and weight for each journey flown would
>prove to be more expensive to calculate and to collect than the
>revenue that it produced. The former option is manifestly unfair and
>thus a breach of human rights and the latter is absurd.
>
>PROPOSED CHANGE
> Add Recital No 16, as follows:
>
>(16) It is acknowledged that exemptions for VFR flights and for all
>flights of aircraft of less than 2 tonnes MTOW have hitherto been
>granted from Eurocontrol's charges for good and practical reasons.
>These exemptions shall continue.
>
>Article 3
>
>COMMENT
>
>No exemption is shown for VFR flights and for light aircraft.
>
>REASONS
>
>The existing exemptions within the current Eurocontrol charging
>system should continue.
>
>PROPOSAL
>
>Add clause no 11, as follows:
>
>11. All VFR flights and flights by aircraft of less than 2 tonnes
>MTOW are to continue to be exempt from all Charges.
My reading of the comments form is that it must be submitted by
organisations. So, I guess it's more likely to be read and taken
seriously if you submit it as a representative for (eg) your local
flying club, your own business (if aviation-related), etc, etc.
You can find other useful responses on the pfa website
<http://www.pfa.org.uk> - there is a link on the opening page to
Graham Newby's responses to 2 of the items.
Also note that if you can't work out how to download the document I
put up on Steve & Jos's EuropaForum bulletin board, it's available
from the horse's mouth at <http://www.eurocontrol.int/enprm>.
regards
Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson Europa Club Membership Secretary - email for info!
| Europa 435 G-ROWI (710 hours building) PFA #16532
| e-mail <memsec@europaclub.org.uk> website <www.europaclub.org.uk>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Woodcomp/Kremen propellers |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
What happened to ST Aviation's Kremin agency?
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
Subject: Europa-List: Woodcomp/Kremen propellers
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce"
<davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
>
> I am pleased to say that Frances Donaldson has just increased the blade
life limit on the SR2000 prop from 3 yrs to 6 yrs and said he expects to be
able to remove that limit altogether in a couple of years or so. This has
made it a commercial proposition to sell them in the UK and a major player
in the UK GA marketpkace is pursuing the possibility of becoming their
agent.
> The Europa 6 Nations tour ( G-HOFC, G-RIXS, G-PTAG, G-NEAT &
G-XSDJ) visited the Kremen factory last week and were impressed and
unanimous that when their current props gave up they would reequip with a
Kremen. I understand that Bryan Alsop has just bought one for 2600 Euros
which included spinner, wiring, CS unit, delivery and instruments, with
total weight of 9.8 Kg
> David Joyce, G-XSDJ
>
>
Message 24
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|
| Subject: | Re: RE: Hand prop a Rotax? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
Para 13.4.7 of the 914 manual (for example, but it's no different for the
other engines) says:
"Ignition must cut-in between 150 rpm and max. 220 rpm of crankshaft".
Which means the speed that it is supposed to start working. This is little
more than 1 rev. per second of the propeller
Duncan Mcf.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Housman" <RobH@hyperion-ef.com>
Subject: Europa-List: RE: Hand prop a Rotax?
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Rob Housman" <RobH@hyperion-ef.com>
>
> Something is suspicious here.
>
> According to Rotax the engine must be up to 1200 RPM in order to start, so
> let's do some math. 1200 RPM divided by 2.43 (the gearbox ratio) is 494
RPM
> at the prop. If we assume a 72 inch diameter prop, then the tip speed is
> 494 rev/min times 3.1416 times 72 in/rev divided by 12 in/ft equals 9312
> ft/minute or 155 ft/sec. Hmmm, that's about 120 knots, and I don't think
> any human can move a hand that fast let alone actually turn a prop against
> the engine's compression.
>
> So.... either Rotax is wrong or...well, draw your own conclusion.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Rob Housman
> Europa XS Tri-Gear A070
> Airframe complete
> Irvine, CA
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]
> Subject:
>
> --> Europa-List message posted by:
>
> From: "Houlihan,Tim" <tim.houlihan@oce.co.uk>
> To: "'europa-list@matronics.com'" <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Battery position
> Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 17:40:35 +0100
>
>
> ">Is an external power source point worth having?<
>
> If you don't an engine start with a flat aircraft battery will not be
> possible as you cannot hand crank a Rotax."
>
>
> Over the past three months I have spoken to two pilots who have hand
started
> their 912 equipped aircraft.
> I truly believe both of them.
>
> One of them found that the rising tide was a great incentive !!
>
> He landed on a beach to assist another microlight. When he came to restart
> the engine the battery was flat and the waves were only a few metres away.
> So he hand started it and saved the day !
>
> He tells me he had done this previously and was surprised when I told it
> could not be done !!!
>
> Tim Houlihan
>
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Aero-News: 'Best (and Worst) of Oshkosh 2004 |
--> Europa-List message posted by: MJKTuck@cs.com
Hi Guys,
Aero-News: 'Best (and Worst) of Oshkosh 2004'
Kind of surprised by the winner of the 'Exercises in Futility 2004' Award and
associated comments:
... not so surprised by the first runner up.
Check out the article at (complete article address shown below):
http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=32ba355a-6857-4e05-8b2f-6155
f45e5db2&
Regards,
Martin Tuck
Europa N152MT
Wichita, Kansas
Message 26
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|
| Subject: | Battery Compartment in Rear - Fixing it down. |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Robert Berube" <bberube@tampabay.rr.com>
Richard,
It is much easier to fit the battery box aft if you are not sure of your
particular cg before the top goes on. I would bet though that if you are
fitting a 912S the battery will be happy at the firewall location. In some
cases even a 914 can have the battery at that location. It is preferable in
my opinion to try and fit it up front to save weight and easier access. To
eliminate a lot of guesswork, we automatically fit the battery box aft if it
is a 914 and forward if a 912. So far the cg's have worked and it saves
time and money for the customer.
Regards,
Bob Berube
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Iddon
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Battery Compartment in Rear - Fixing it down.
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Richard Iddon" <riddon@sent.com>
Bob,
To mount my battery in the back, I moulded a battery tray about 1 inch
deep using a block of wood as a former and added a flange hanging down
around each side. Once set and the wood removed, I trimmed the flange to
allow the tray to sit horizontally on the fuse floor and used a couple
of layers of bid to bond it into place. I cut a slot midway along the
flange front and back and use a luggage strap through these and around
the battery to hold it securely.
Having said this, as a result of the recent posts on the subject, I am
now thinking of moving it to the firewall so will have to reinvent the
wheel once more.
Hope this helps.
Richard Iddon. G-RIXS
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JR (Bob)
Gowing
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Battery Compartment in Rear - Fixing it down.
--> Europa-List message posted by: "JR (Bob) Gowing"
<gowingjr@acr.net.au>
Dear Alan, Richard, Fred and Bob B,
The remarks have been useful and I thank you all.
What you have pointed out is that I am a bit ahead of myself - it is a
job I
need to leave until dealing with C of G!
But with a rear C of G it seems to me Richard might fly fast but I would
not
like to have to use every bit of trim leaving no room for error in
loading
fully. I am no expert but would be considering moving the battery. And
Fred's RG Battery I have noted for later. Bob's general remarks are
reassuring.
So you have put me int the right direction. Thank you all.
But I did not ask the right question; I was thinking that it would be
easier
to fix the holder into place while the lower fuselage sat in Chuckpop's
cradle and before I bonded in the extended baggage bay.
What I was interested in at the time and still need to find out, I hate
to
admit, was the detail of housing the battery and holding it still,
something
that we who are still building, will all have to face sometime.
Thank you all and good wishes from
JR (Bob) Gowing, UK Kit No 327 in Oz
snipped and do not archive
==
==
==
==
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Aero-News: 'Best (and Worst) of Oshkosh 2004 |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" <n3eu@comcast.net>
> Hi Guys,
>
> Aero-News: 'Best (and Worst) of Oshkosh 2004'
>
> Kind of surprised by the winner of the 'Exercises in Futility 2004'
Award and
> associated comments:
>
> ... not so surprised by the first runner up.
>
That would be significant, were it not that the quality of their
journalism is atrocious. Harrison Ford rec'd their Best Actor award,
for being "deeply in love with aviation." True enough, but ANN wasn't
apparently bothered by his telling an audience there that he doesn't
fly ultralights, because he doesn't want to die. And some of their
other awards are as moronic as Indy's attempt to be funny.
Reg,
Fred F.
Message 28
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|
| Subject: | Re: Battery Compartment in Rear - Fixing it down. |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Mike Parkin" <mikenjulie.parkin@btopenworld.com>
It is true that the cables to a rear mounted battery would way more.
However, I would argue that access is easier with a rear mounted battery.
Four screws of baggage bay panel as opposed to 20 or so screws in the top
cowling. Furthermore, after jump-starting a flat battery to get you home -
I wouldn't try to replace the top cowling with the engine running - with a
baggage bay cover, I wouldn't bother replacing the cover until I had
recharged/replaced the battery.
regards,
MP
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Berube" <bberube@tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Battery Compartment in Rear - Fixing it down.
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Robert Berube"
<bberube@tampabay.rr.com>
>
> Richard,
> It is much easier to fit the battery box aft if you are not sure of your
> particular cg before the top goes on. I would bet though that if you are
> fitting a 912S the battery will be happy at the firewall location. In
some
> cases even a 914 can have the battery at that location. It is preferable
in
> my opinion to try and fit it up front to save weight and easier access.
To
> eliminate a lot of guesswork, we automatically fit the battery box aft if
it
> is a 914 and forward if a 912. So far the cg's have worked and it saves
> time and money for the customer.
>
> Regards,
> Bob Berube
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Iddon
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Battery Compartment in Rear - Fixing it down.
>
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Richard Iddon" <riddon@sent.com>
>
> Bob,
>
> To mount my battery in the back, I moulded a battery tray about 1 inch
> deep using a block of wood as a former and added a flange hanging down
> around each side. Once set and the wood removed, I trimmed the flange to
> allow the tray to sit horizontally on the fuse floor and used a couple
> of layers of bid to bond it into place. I cut a slot midway along the
> flange front and back and use a luggage strap through these and around
> the battery to hold it securely.
>
> Having said this, as a result of the recent posts on the subject, I am
> now thinking of moving it to the firewall so will have to reinvent the
> wheel once more.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Richard Iddon. G-RIXS
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JR (Bob)
> Gowing
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Battery Compartment in Rear - Fixing it down.
>
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "JR (Bob) Gowing"
> <gowingjr@acr.net.au>
>
> Dear Alan, Richard, Fred and Bob B,
>
> The remarks have been useful and I thank you all.
>
> What you have pointed out is that I am a bit ahead of myself - it is a
> job I
> need to leave until dealing with C of G!
>
> But with a rear C of G it seems to me Richard might fly fast but I would
> not
> like to have to use every bit of trim leaving no room for error in
> loading
> fully. I am no expert but would be considering moving the battery. And
> Fred's RG Battery I have noted for later. Bob's general remarks are
> reassuring.
>
> So you have put me int the right direction. Thank you all.
>
> But I did not ask the right question; I was thinking that it would be
> easier
> to fix the holder into place while the lower fuselage sat in Chuckpop's
> cradle and before I bonded in the extended baggage bay.
>
> What I was interested in at the time and still need to find out, I hate
> to
> admit, was the detail of housing the battery and holding it still,
> something
> that we who are still building, will all have to face sometime.
>
> Thank you all and good wishes from
>
> JR (Bob) Gowing, UK Kit No 327 in Oz
> snipped and do not archive
>
>
> ==
> ==
> ==
> ==
>
>
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