Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:02 AM - Rudder Pedal Pop Rivet to floor (Tony Renshaw)
2. 12:56 AM - Re: Rudder Pedal Pop Rivet to floor (Kingsley Hurst)
3. 03:24 AM - Re: Tie Bar and Vent location 4) Questions (John Cliff)
4. 03:52 AM - Re: The rise of Europa (Jeremy Davey)
5. 03:55 AM - Attempting a piecemeal forwarding of "Good News from Kirkbymoorside " (Jeremy Davey)
6. 04:46 AM - Instrument and Avionics Sub Panel Retainment (Kingsley Hurst)
7. 05:43 AM - Instrument and Avionics Sub Panel Retainment (Kingsley Hurst)
8. 06:18 AM - Re: Instrument and Avionics Sub Panel Retainment (Gerry Holland)
9. 06:40 AM - Re: Dedication and committment (EuropaXSA276@aol.com)
10. 07:14 AM - Open Response to Dave (Buzz) (irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu)
11. 07:35 AM - Fule filler tube (Dave Anderson)
12. 07:39 AM - Re: Attempting a piecemeal forwarding of "Good News from Kirkbymoorside " (Steve & Eileen Genotte)
13. 07:45 AM - Re: Fule filler tube (Dan Bish)
14. 08:01 AM - Re: Fuel filler tube (Gerry Holland)
15. 08:16 AM - Re: Fuel filler tube (SteveD)
16. 08:25 AM - Re: Attempting a piecemeal forwarding of "Good News from Kirkbym... (Trevpond@aol.com)
17. 08:27 AM - Re: Open Response to Dave (Buzz) (R.C.Harrison)
18. 09:01 AM - Re: Open Response to Dave (Buzz) (Fergus Kyle)
19. 09:31 AM - Re: Open Response to Dave (Buzz) (Fred R. Klein)
20. 09:32 AM - Re: Open Response to Dave (Buzz) (MICHAEL PARKIN)
21. 09:50 AM - Re: Transponder issues (Fred Fillinger)
22. 10:27 AM - Open Response Comments (Gerry Holland)
23. 10:32 AM - Re: Fule filler tube (rlborger)
24. 10:44 AM - Re: (Dave Buzz Posting Problem...) The rise of (Matt Dralle)
25. 11:13 AM - Re: NIGEL> Fuel drain modification? (nigel charles)
26. 11:13 AM - Re: Instrument and Avionics Sub Panel Retainment (nigel charles)
27. 12:39 PM - test (DaveBuzz@aol.com)
28. 12:55 PM - Re: Transponder issues (Fergus Kyle)
29. 01:32 PM - Re: Fule filler tube (Timothy.P.Ward)
30. 01:36 PM - Re: Open Response to Dave (Buzz) (DaveBuzz@aol.com)
31. 02:02 PM - mono gear retraction (Mike Gamble)
32. 02:05 PM - Re: test (Fergus Kyle)
33. 02:06 PM - Re: Open Response to Dave (Buzz) (Rocketman)
34. 02:40 PM - Re: Open Response to Dave (Buzz) (Garry Stout)
35. 02:42 PM - Re Open Letter and New Europa (irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu)
36. 02:43 PM - Re Open Letter and New Europa (irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu)
37. 03:07 PM - Re: Re Open Letter and New Europa (DaveBuzz@aol.com)
38. 04:15 PM - Re: Open Response to Dave (Buzz) (Rowland Carson)
39. 09:28 PM - Airmaster (Dave Anderson)
40. 11:24 PM - Re: Open Response to Dave (Buzz) (karelvranken)
41. 11:46 PM - fuel filler tube (de Geus)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Rudder Pedal Pop Rivet to floor |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw@optusnet.com.au>
Gidday,
I have been reading ahead in the section I am working on, the rudder pedal
installation. So, there is a reference to pop rivets pulling through
timber........here it is:
With an AN3-ZOA bolt tbroughthe holes in the floor panels attach an MS21
047-3&chor nut, finger
tight, and hold it against the glastibre underside. Drill through the
anchor nut's lugs with a 3.3mm
(l/S") drill and install them with TLPD419BS pop rivets. The rivets will
pull through the wood and
hold onto the glassfibre skin.
The diagram also shows the pops going up through the anchor nut and pulling
down on the underside of the deck. Now OK, I have 2 plies of BID on the
underside of my floors, but am I right in taking this instruction
literally? Why don't I flox up a puddle of flox in a hole repression where
my rivets will take up and then use countersink rivets into this hardened
flox, ensuring I would think a more solid fit. To pull through wood and
then pull up on 2 plies of BID doesn't seem the best way. Advice on this
appreciated.
Reg
Tony Renshaw
Sydney Australia
Classic 236 B.B. Taildragger
Tail, Wings, Ailerons, Flaps Complete and Connected
Lower Fuse in Jig, and module most recently installed.
Tail Torque Tube installed.
Mass Balance assembly installed and deflections sorted
Roof Panel between doors completed.
Photos at:
http://forum.okhuijsen.org/TonyR
Intended Engine: 912S CS prop (model undecided)
Instrumentation: Garmin 296 Colour GPS beneath an electronic Artificial
Horizon, one that I can trust for short periods IMC, to get out of a sticky
situation
Message 2
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| Subject: | Rudder Pedal Pop Rivet to floor |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" <hurstkr@growzone.com.au>
Tony Renshaw wrote:-
I have been reading ahead in the section I am working on, the rudder
pedal
installation. So, there is a reference to pop rivets pulling through
timber........here it is:
Tony,
Remember the pop rivets are only to hold the anchor nuts (bugger nuts)
to the underside of the floor and to stop them turning while the bolts
are tightened. I did mine just as the book says and was surprised how
well they do hold in fact.
Regards
Kingsley
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Tie Bar and Vent location 4) Questions |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "John Cliff" <mx@crixbinfield.freeserve.co.uk>
> 1) I have an Accelerated CPM and monogear XS. There is a
> clearance relief for tie bar incorporated in the pitch tube tunnel.
> The manual shows how to cut a relief. Do I need
> to bond the tie rod to the tunnel of the CPM to prevent buckling
> under compression loads?
The tie bar, when in action at all, is in tension. Compression loads of any
magnitude should not arise.
John Cliff
#0259
Message 4
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| Subject: | The rise of Europa |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Jeremy Davey" <EuropaFlyer_3@msn.com>
Hi, Dave,
I understand where youre coming from but, and you unfortunately may not be
aware of this, for some reason the Matronics list server is refusing to
serve out a posting from DaveBuzz about this. Dave's tried about 6 times,
Jos has had a few goes on Dave's behalf, I've had a few goes, but still it
refuses to send it out!
Hopefully this one will get through, and I'll try chopping up Dave's
original post and sending it out piecemeal - hopefully that way we'll get
some of it through! Editing out the bits that might obviously have tripped a
spam filter did not work.
Have you read the info on the Club's web site and have you tried contacting
John Wheeler?
Suffice to say most of us on this Forum know Andy and we all know his
absolute commitment to the global Europa community. They've only just formed
the company and are still working out exactly what they've got - give the
guys a few days to work out how they are going to support the US. I for one
would find it hard to believe that they won't do so! It would make no
commercial sense not to and, more importantly, I don't believe Andy would
ever turn his back on the builders over there - that would seem rather at
odds with the support he and Neville have given us over the interregnum.
So I understand the frustration, but you might want to hang fire a little
longer.
Regards,
Jeremy
Jeremy Davey
Europa Monowheel 537M G-EZZA
Tail done
Standard XS wings with mods underway
CM installed in fuse (with airbrakes fittings)
1200 build hours to date
Intended fit:
Rotax 914 turbo, Airmaster CS fully-feathering prop
Lots of lights, buttons, switches, gizmos, and alarms
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Anderson
Subject: Europa-List: The rise of Europa
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Dave Anderson" <dja767@charter.net>
HI group,
It seems from what I have gathered that the new Europa has completely
ignored the US market. As far as I know, the US sales office has not been
included in the revival of the company. If they happen to be out there, to
me they are making at least three mistakes. Two mistakes are not
capitalizing on the talents of John Hurst and Neville Eyre. They were
EXTREMELY valuable, from my personal perspective having completed an
aircraft in 11 full time and 4 part time months. Dealing with an office in
the US, as responsive as John made it, was a critical part of all of this.
As useful as all your inputs were off this list, Neville was the one who
made the construction of the mini U2 possible. Big mistake.
The third mistake is not having a US sales office. John Hurst was extremely
valuable and went WAY above that required to support the US customers. I
personally saw him stay after midnight helping a buyer load up his kit - all
on his OWN TIME!!! He has a genuine enthusiasm for the airplane that is
contagious. In addition to sales, he was doing development work and
interfacing with the sub components such as Rotax and Airmaster.
On the subject of Airmaster, A fellow Europa builder out here having built
one of the first kits in the US (he can be seen on the sales video) ordered
and PAID for an Airmaster prop. That prop never showed up to the tune of
$5200. This is obviously a situation that is totally unacceptable. It
borders on theft. Right on the border.
Also, in the trouble shooting of my 914 engine, I have looked over
everything and found that there may have been a manifold leak through the
joint between the carb tray and the intake. I can't believe they use O rings
for that, but they do. Both O rings were swollen to the point they would not
go in the groove. I have made gaskets for both sides of the carb tray and it
runs very smoothly now, but not perfect. My next thing to investigate is the
fuel pressure regulation. I purchased the differential fuel pressure sender
from UMA at OSH and just have it now installed. On the ground it reads about
3.5 psi above airbox pressure. That is right EXCEPT when both pumps are on,
it reads close to 6 PSI. Tomorrow morning I will do a flight to see what
readings I am getting. It is supposed to maintain the fuel pressure 3.5 psi
above airbox pressure, with acceptable ranges of 2 to 5 psid. If the
pressure it too high, the carb bowls can overflow and cause rich running and
worse. Before an!
yone asks, the line back to the tank is perfectly clear 3/8 inch aluminum
line all the way back. There is no restriction. I get close to 40 gph
circulating around the loop. The engine has never had what I would call a
satisfying run-up, but it is within limits, so I fly.
More progress, one day at a time.
Dave
A227
Mini U2
240 TT
Message 5
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| Subject: | Attempting a piecemeal forwarding of "Good News from Kirkbymoorside |
"
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Jeremy Davey" <EuropaFlyer_3@msn.com>
DaveBuzz asked me to send this on his behalf while he's having computer
problems:
Hello All,
<edited out a chunk on Jos changing his email address and the posting going
to the old one, also a chunk on email addresses that bounced>
I apologise if not all Members received the information straightaway as
intended, but if addresses are changed, please do notify Rowland so that, if
we have important information to put out, at least we can try to keep
Members up to date (thanks Rob, got your new address, and Jac, just seen
yours too).
As for a US operation, I find recent remarks rather harsh and uncalled for
and I anticipate the new Europa will be in touch with all builders soon.
Andy allowed the Club to announce the news to its Members first, and then
issued the statement to various international aviation magazines. To say
they are 'Ignoring their biggest market' after only being in existance for
five days is perhaps not the most thoughtful statement to make, and neither
is comparing them to the previous management. I have actually spoken with
Andy Draper and the guys have enough on rebuilding and restocking from
scratch at one location, without having to setup a branch anywhere else:
They can post out direct from Kirkbymoorside to anywhere in the world, and
no doubt will consider further branches and/or Agents when they are in a
position to do so.
Finally, Jeremy has already said that the full info is now on the Club site,
and I'll just point out that I am the Europa Club Chairman (not an Email
List Chairman!), and thus will try my best to put Club Members first.
Chus,
dave bosomworth
(with Chairman's headset on!)
Regards,
Jeremy Davey
Europa Monowheel 537M G-EZZA
Tail done
Standard XS wings with mods underway
CM installed in fuse (with airbrakes fittings)
1200 build hours to date
Intended fit:
Rotax 914 turbo, Airmaster CS fully-feathering prop
Lots of lights, buttons, switches, gizmos, and alarms
Message 6
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| Subject: | Instrument and Avionics Sub Panel Retainment |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" <hurstkr@growzone.com.au>
All,
I would like to know what method of retainment other builders have used to
secure the aluminium (aluminum) sub panels for the instruments and avionics.
If possible, I would prefer to use flexible retainers of some sort but am at
a loss as to what sort to use. As I see it, any such devices would need to
be permanently fixed to the panel proper in order for the retaining screws
of the sub panels to be able to be installed and removed without the need
for access from the rear.
All ideas or advice gratefully received.
Thanks in anticipation
Kingsley Hurst
Mono Classic 281 in Oz.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Instrument and Avionics Sub Panel Retainment |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" <hurstkr@growzone.com.au>
Sending this a second time, something went wrong the first time. If it
turns up twice, my apologies.
All,
I would like to know what method of retainment other builders have used to
secure the aluminium (aluminum) sub panels for the instruments and avionics.
If possible, I would prefer to use flexible retainers of some sort but am
at
a loss as to what sort to use. As I see it, any such devices would need to
be permanently fixed to the panel proper in order for the retaining screws
of the sub panels to be able to be installed and removed without the need
for access from the rear.
All ideas or advice gratefully received.
Thanks in anticipation
Kingsley Hurst
Mono Classic 281 in Oz.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Instrument and Avionics Sub Panel Retainment |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Gerry Holland <gnholland@onetel.com>
Kingsley Hi!
> I would like to know what method of retainment other builders have used to
> secure the aluminium (aluminum) sub panels for the instruments and avionics.
Nigel Charles introduced me to some varied size inserts that compress into
the Main Panel retaining area and allow standard screws to secure sub
panels.
I think he may have got them from Wicks Aircraft Supplies.
Details:
AVK Industrial Products
25323 Rye Canyon Road
Valencia, CA 91355
USA
TEL +1 (661) 257-2329
FAX +1 (661) 257-8043
Website: http://www.avkfasteners.com/products.html
They are available in a variety of sizes.
Regards
Gerry
Europa 384 G-FIZY
Trigear with Rotax 912 and Arplast CS Prop.
Panel near completion.
Dynon EFIS, KMD 150, Icom A-200 and SL70 Transponder.
PSS AoA Fitted.
http://www.g-fizy.com
+44 7808 402404
gnholland@onetel.com
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Dedication and committment |
--> Europa-List message posted by: EuropaXSA276@aol.com
In a message dated 9/11/2004 10:16:29 PM Central Standard Time,
fklein@orcasonline.com writes:
Day amm...that didn't take long...You definitely got the drift, thou down in
Texas, I spect you'd be dealing w/ hawwgs.
DO NOT ARCHIVE.
FRED
Actually Fred, I fancy myself as more of a Horseman. The only hogs I am truly
familiar with are built by Harley Davidson.
I had a coach quote your dedication / commitment statement to me daily for 4
years!
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Brian S
A276 Tri Gear. Texas
See my build photos at:
http://forum.okhuijsen.org/BrianS
Message 10
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| Subject: | Open Response to Dave (Buzz) |
09/12/2004 10:14:19 AM,
Serialize complete at 09/12/2004 10:14:19 AM
--> Europa-List message posted by: irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu
Hi Dave,
First, I did not say the largest market, I said one of the largest markets
Second with all due respect for your position as President of the Europa
club,
telling you the good news alone is not nearly the same as telling Europa
Owners.
Rather more like a third to a fifth of the thousand kits sold. I know for
a fact
that Andy, at least, is not nearly so web- clueless as the sad case of the
Europa
employees who sent that sad missive to the Club begging publicity, and
completely ignorant of the list, the web site and everyone else.
Third, I think it is completely reasonable and proud to be UK centric.
You guys have a fine product and are deservidly proud. It is just a
lousy business plan.
Fourth, the US builders have in proportion been hurt more by
the old company than UK builder where the parts pipeline persisted
longer and no one was held up by imaginary container shipments.
Therefore, even a casual neglect of the folks on this side is taken as an
affront, intended or not.
Knowing Andy and Nev from many hours at Oshkosk and SnF I have the highest
respect
and appreciation for them even though I never called them for assistence
(OK, calling to complain
about mismolded parts is another issue). I only wish success for them. (
Even if Nev still
owes Russ amd me the plans for the balsa model)
I have had a number of US owners write me privately to tell me how they
have been
screwed by Keith and Europa. While I am done, except for glider wings,
and I have tried the
whole time to help Europa, even to the extent of working in the tent
trying to sell kits, none
of us feel warm and fuzzy about being relegated to second class Europa
citizens.
Why is the company web site always obsolete?
Why even now, do the company principles rely information 2nd hand
transfer.
They have the same free access to the web and the list as all of us. What
are they afraid of?
Flame off
No quotes of old news needed
Ira
in this case carrying the sentiments of many
Message 11
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| Subject: | Fule filler tube |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Dave Anderson" <dja767@charter.net>
I recall somebody who was making fuel tank filler tubes out of aluminum? I would
like to see about getting one of those to replace what I have, which is not
as good as it could be.
Does anybody know about this?
Thanks,
Dave
Message 12
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| Subject: | Attempting a piecemeal forwarding of "Good News from |
Kirkbymoorside "
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Steve & Eileen Genotte" <genottes@wi.rr.com>
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jeremy Davey
Subject: Europa-List: Attempting a piecemeal forwarding of "Good News from
Kirkbymoorside "
* Europa-List message posted by: "Jeremy Davey" <EuropaFlyer_3@msn.com>
DaveBuzz asked me to send this on his behalf while he's having computer
problems:
Hello All,
<snip>
As for a US operation, I find recent remarks rather harsh and uncalled for
and I anticipate the new Europa will be in touch with all builders soon.
[...]
* HELLO!! I know a number of you were hurt by the folding of EMIL, some
more than others, but the rancor I've seen on the board regarding the
"failures" of the new Europa owners has been unseemly at best. It hasn't
even been a week,, yet accusations are already flying hither and yon
regarding Europa (2004) Ltd.'s supposed shortcomings. How many of you
assumed they'd dropped the U.S. market without bothering to contact them,
eh?
* Can we put the lynch mobs on standby? Sheesh.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Fule filler tube |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Dan Bish" <danbish@norwalktucson.com>
Dave,
You're looking for a guy named Tim Ward from New Zealand, I think. I have
one of his filler tubes. Do a search in the archives and I'm sure you'll
find several hits.
Dan
A144 - N914RB
Tucson, AZ
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Anderson
Subject: Europa-List: Fule filler tube
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Dave Anderson" <dja767@charter.net>
I recall somebody who was making fuel tank filler tubes out of aluminum? I
would like to see about getting one of those to replace what I have, which
is not as good as it could be.
Does anybody know about this?
Thanks,
Dave
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel filler tube |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Gerry Holland <gnholland@onetel.com>
> I recall somebody who was making fuel tank filler tubes out of aluminum? I
> would like to see about getting one of those to replace what I have, which is
> not as good as it could be.
>
> Does anybody know about this?
You need to contact Tim Ward in NZ.
E-mail: ward.t@xtra.co.nz
Regards
Gerry
Message 15
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| Subject: | RE: Fuel filler tube |
2.60 REPLY_TO_EMPTY Reply-To: is empty
--> Europa-List message posted by: "SteveD" <Post2Forum@comcast.net>
Give this a try:
http://forum.okhuijsen.org/TWardStuff
Steved.
----------------
Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://forum.okhuijsen.org/
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Attempting a piecemeal forwarding of "Good News from |
Kirkbym...
--> Europa-List message posted by: Trevpond@aol.com
You can't build anything without a solid foundation - for goodness sake give
the new owners the time to establish some credibility with the suppliers who
have been so badly let down by EMI. Then, when they have something to sell,
they will be in a position to start doing business everywhere. After all we
don't want a repeat of the last debacle, everyone loses then as a lot of us
already have.
Trev Pond
Kit 598
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Open Response to Dave (Buzz) |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@ukonline.co.uk>
Hi! Ira and the rest of the impatient bunch.
I know there is a lot of wound licking to be done and I do have lots of
sympathy for those deeply robbed, however it is quite apparent that those
who are "ranting" for attention have never been involved in a regeneration
event concerning a failed company. I have, I've been there, if I had my time
over those making the loudest noise would have gone to the bottom of the
list.
You clearly don't understand the logistics of the tasks to be done in a very
orderly manner, the new team must have time to establish sub-contractors,
credit facilities, commence manufacturing lead times and I'm sure perhaps
negotiate new suppliers of some parts since there may well be some
contractors who have lost lots more than some would be builders, and in
consequence will not take kindly to resumption of supplies without some
guarantes.
I suggest that when the UK base is back on a firm footing then the "ducks"
in the States might begin to get put in line.
I'm sure Andy and Co. can't afford to tell you this but I as a past customer
can , just get off their backs for a week or two and let them do their
dillegent thing or you will have a second company failure.
regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
----- Original Message -----
From: <irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu>
Subject: Europa-List: Open Response to Dave (Buzz)
> --> Europa-List message posted by: irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu
>
> Hi Dave,
>
> First, I did not say the largest market, I said one of the largest markets
>
> Second with all due respect for your position as President of the Europa
> club,
> telling you the good news alone is not nearly the same as telling Europa
> Owners.
> Rather more like a third to a fifth of the thousand kits sold. I know for
> a fact
> that Andy, at least, is not nearly so web- clueless as the sad case of the
> Europa
> employees who sent that sad missive to the Club begging publicity, and
> completely ignorant of the list, the web site and everyone else.
>
> Third, I think it is completely reasonable and proud to be UK centric.
> You guys have a fine product and are deservidly proud. It is just a
> lousy business plan.
>
> Fourth, the US builders have in proportion been hurt more by
> the old company than UK builder where the parts pipeline persisted
> longer and no one was held up by imaginary container shipments.
>
> Therefore, even a casual neglect of the folks on this side is taken as an
> affront, intended or not.
> Knowing Andy and Nev from many hours at Oshkosk and SnF I have the highest
> respect
> and appreciation for them even though I never called them for assistence
> (OK, calling to complain
> about mismolded parts is another issue). I only wish success for them. (
> Even if Nev still
> owes Russ amd me the plans for the balsa model)
>
> I have had a number of US owners write me privately to tell me how they
> have been
> screwed by Keith and Europa. While I am done, except for glider wings,
> and I have tried the
> whole time to help Europa, even to the extent of working in the tent
> trying to sell kits, none
...... Bla.....Bla.....Bla.....
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Open Response to Dave (Buzz) |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
----- Original Message -----
From: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@ukonline.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Open Response to Dave (Buzz)
| --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison"
<ptag.dev@ukonline.co.uk>
|
| Hi! Ira and the rest of the impatient bunch.
| I know there is a lot of wound licking to be done and I do have lots of
| sympathy for those deeply robbed, however it is quite apparent that those
| who are "ranting" for attention have never been involved in a regeneration
| event concerning a failed company. I have, I've been there, if I had my
time
| over those making the loudest noise would have gone to the bottom of the
| list.
| You clearly don't understand the logistics of the tasks to be done in a
very
| orderly manner, the new team must have time to establish sub-contractors,
| credit facilities, commence manufacturing lead times and I'm sure perhaps
| negotiate new suppliers of some parts since there may well be some
| contractors who have lost lots more than some would be builders, and in
| consequence will not take kindly to resumption of supplies without some
| guarantes.
| I suggest that when the UK base is back on a firm footing then the "ducks"
| in the States might begin to get put in line.
| I'm sure Andy and Co. can't afford to tell you this but I as a past
customer
| can , just get off their backs for a week or two and let them do their
| dilligent thing or you will have a second company failure.
| regards
| Bob Harrison G-PTAG
| ----- Original Message -----
| From: <irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu>
| To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
| Subject: Europa-List: Open Response to Dave (Buzz)
Agreement in full!
I notice Ira didn't mention Canada, South American continent and South
Africa, let alone Australasia. I wonder what the relative sizes of the
market really are. I also wonder what the reaction to an unnecessarily-open
letter would have been if the firm were in China or Japan?!*.
As for "UK-centric", what could be further from the truth? Admittedly, both
UK AND US can be equally parochial at times, but personnel at Europa have
been productive and educated. Intelligence is not always geographic.
As for service in "the tent", I didn't see Rampil serving customers the two
years I was at OSH. Perhaps a year or two is a decade?
I'd say "Give it a month", then ankle-bite, bitch and whine.
Ferg
*That is a terrabang.
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Open Response to Dave (Buzz) |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred R. Klein" <fklein@orcasonline.com>
Hi All,
Ah...the freedom of communication...and yet how troublesome...especially
when someone takes upon himself the duty to speak on behalf of others, as in
> none of us feel warm and fuzzy about being relegated to second class Europa
> citizens.
As one who is missing paid-for and as yet un-delivered components, I am
grateful that the company has been resurrected and includes some of the
trusted hands from the past.
I am content for the time being to give this new ownership and management a
decent interval of time to sort things out and come to grips with the fact
that, among other things, they have inherited some unhappy customers due to
unmet obligations of the previous company.
Just how the new company chooses to balance the challenging equation of the
goodwill of their customer base, their legal obligations, and their
available resources remains to be seen and will, no doubt, influence the
prospects for success of the new company.
I for one am troubled by some of the initial, and in my judgement premature
and unnecessarily inflamatory, assertions read on this forum.
I am also grateful for the existance of the Europa Club; regrettably, my own
application sits on my desk, though I have every intention of getting it in
the mail ASAP since I have simply concluded that it is in my best interest
to do so. Last time I checked membership was open to anyone.
I cannot agree that a possible decision by the new company to not
re-activate the USA subsidiary relegates me to being a "second class
citizen"; for all I know, the USA office may have been excess corporate
overhead...East and West Coast distributers may well be the best value.
I plea for civility and open communication...with a reminder that
"communication" and "community" come from the same root...let's not let one
destroy the other.
Fred
A194
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Open Response to Dave (Buzz) |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "MICHAEL PARKIN" <mikenjulie.parkin@btopenworld.com>
Whine, Whine, Whine..... For heavens sake - give the guys a chance to get the
wounded europa of the ground before you kick 'em in the slats!!
Never that surprised at the human race these days.
MP
Message 21
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|
| Subject: | Re: Transponder issues |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" <n3eu@comcast.net>
> Right-o, Fred,
> If the interrogation system is
> anything like the aerochat freqs, the ATC interrogator probably has
many
> more watts output than does the transponder. That may be reciprocity
in the
> master/slave market, but is it true for the ATC txpdr too?
> cheers, Ferg
I googled up product literature and specs for some of theses
interrogators, and yes they can (user-selectable) put out more power,
but also have 4-6 times the receive sensitivity. And where the radar
site is on an airport, for example, it appears that xmit power would
have to be limited, or the FAA spec on max signal our xponder must
deal with will be busted within, like, 1 mile of the field, meaning
unreliable replies I assume. So, I propose ATC usually has a much
better receiver than transmitter.
For trivia value, I plugged the #'s into my RF calculator spreadsheet.
Our antennas are omnidirectional; ATC's is highly directional (e.g.,
+27dBi, Ferg) and is bolted to the spinning radar antenna. So, if ATC
wanted usability out to 50 miles, and everybody's xponder/antenna can
be assumed to meet FAA spec, then guess how much power ATC
theoretically needs.... 1.1 watt! Since their high-gain antenna also
receives, a similar calculation makes the difference in receive
sensitivity enormous. If you can put out a measly 1 watt out of your
250 at 25 miles at enough altitude, there's a possibility they'll see
you.
Reg,
Fred F.
Message 22
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| Subject: | Open Response Comments |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Gerry Holland <gnholland@onetel.com>
Regarding the problems at EMIL and latterly the emergence of Europa Aircraft
2004.
Firstly. I'm lucky. I've got all I need to complete. Will still need parts
in the future though.
I know of many in the worldwide Europa community that aren't so lucky.
These guys need some hope and understanding. Serious money has been
misappropriated!
So... Why dont we all feel encouraged that the gloom and doom of only a few
days ago has turned into a way forward.
I can understand both points of view but surely surrounded by bloody
conflict everywhere in the world there should be area of our lives where
that needn't be present.... Building and Flying a Europa.
Ira. I respect your point of view. Bob you have every right to respond.
Please lets be a little less personal in our categorisations of the various
opinions held by each other.
Hoping that everyone moves forward again and Europa Worldwide continues to
be a source of our enjoyment.
Regards to all
Gerry
Europa 384 G-FIZY
Trigear with Rotax 912 and Arplast CS Prop.
Panel near completion.
Dynon EFIS, KMD 150, Icom A-200 and SL70 Transponder.
PSS AoA Fitted.
http://www.g-fizy.com
+44 7808 402404
gnholland@onetel.com
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Fule filler tube |
--> Europa-List message posted by: rlborger <rlborger@mac.com>
Dave,
Check with Bob Berube at Flight Crafters. That's where I bought mine.
bberube@tampabay.rr.com http://www.flightcrafters.com
Good building,
Bob Borger
Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, 914, Airmaster C/S
http://forum.okhuijsen.org/N914XL
(75%) tail kit done, wings closed, cockpit module installed, pitch
system in, landing gear frame in, rudder system in, outrigger mod in,
Fuselage Top on, lift/drag/flap pins in, wing incidence set, tie bar
in, flap drive in. Working in - 24 Instrument Panel, 25 Electrical, 27
Setting Wings, 28 Flaps, 29 Main Gear, 30 Fuel System, 32 Tail, 34 Door
Latches & 35 Doors, 37 Finishing.
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208
Home: 940-497-2123
Cel: 817-992-1117
Message 24
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|
| Subject: | (Dave Buzz Posting Problem...) The rise of |
Europa
--> Europa-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
At 03:52 AM 9/12/2004 Sunday, you wrote:
>--> Europa-List message posted by: "Jeremy Davey" <EuropaFlyer_3@msn.com>
>
>Hi, Dave,
>
>I understand where youre coming from but, and you unfortunately may not be
>aware of this, for some reason the Matronics list server is refusing to
>serve out a posting from DaveBuzz about this. Dave's tried about 6 times,
>Jos has had a few goes on Dave's behalf, I've had a few goes, but still it
>refuses to send it out!
Sorry about the hassle! The problem is that Dave's message contained the
string " m*ilbox full: ", which, when seen, is considered by the automated
List filters to be an invalid message (I've replaced the "a" with a "*" so
that my message doesn't get caught.
Again, sorry for the problem.
Matt Dralle
List Admin
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
Message 25
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|
| Subject: | NIGEL> Fuel drain modification? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "nigel charles" <nigelcharles@tiscali.co.uk>
>Where did you locate your gascolator?<
Aft stbd corner of the mainwheel well. With a Classic the wheel well is
big enough to give clearance with the gear retracted. This provides easy
access and any fuel spillage goes straight to the ground. In case anyone
has doubts it has worked well in this position for 3 years now.
>Are photos available?<
I lost the originals when my computer crashed last year. I can take
another but the description above should be sufficient.
I have a UK builder copying my parallel fuel system with an XS. As the
wheel well is smaller I think he will be mounting the gascolator under
one of the seats with an access panel from underneath. Once we have
sorted out the details his mod and mine might be the basis for another
club mod.
Nigel Charles
Message 26
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|
| Subject: | Instrument and Avionics Sub Panel Retainment |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "nigel charles" <nigelcharles@tiscali.co.uk>
>Nigel Charles introduced me to some varied size inserts that compress
into the Main Panel retaining area and allow standard screws to secure
sub panels.
I think he may have got them from Wicks Aircraft Supplies.<
That is correct. They are called nut inserts and they are very useful
for many blind fixings especially in the engine compartment on the
firewall.
Nigel Charles
Message 27
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--> Europa-List message posted by: DaveBuzz@aol.com
testing... ;-)
Message 28
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|
| Subject: | Re: Transponder issues |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Fillinger" <n3eu@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Transponder issues
| --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" <n3eu@comcast.net>
|
| > Right-o, Fred,
| > If the interrogation system is
| > anything like the aerochat freqs, the ATC interrogator probably has
| many
| > more watts output than does the transponder. That may be reciprocity
| in the
| > master/slave market, but is it true for the ATC txpdr too?
| > cheers, Ferg
|
| I googled up product literature and specs for some of theses
| interrogators, and yes they can (user-selectable) put out more power,
| but also have 4-6 times the receive sensitivity. And where the radar
| site is on an airport, for example, it appears that xmit power would
| have to be limited, or the FAA spec on max signal our xponder must
| deal with will be busted within, like, 1 mile of the field, meaning
| unreliable replies I assume. So, I propose ATC usually has a much
| better receiver than transmitter.
|
| For trivia value, I plugged the #'s into my RF calculator spreadsheet.
| Our antennas are omnidirectional; ATC's is highly directional (e.g.,
| +27dBi, Ferg) and is bolted to the spinning radar antenna. So, if ATC
| wanted usability out to 50 miles, and everybody's xponder/antenna can
| be assumed to meet FAA spec, then guess how much power ATC
| theoretically needs.... 1.1 watt! Since their high-gain antenna also
| receives, a similar calculation makes the difference in receive
| sensitivity enormous. If you can put out a measly 1 watt out of your
| 250 at 25 miles at enough altitude, there's a possibility they'll see
| you.
|
| Reg,
| Fred F.
Understood, Fred,
......and thank you for the time and trouble you took to clarify
my cloudy knowledge - used the b*******rs for over sixty years and never
knew what made them tick. My first wooden jet trip over Air Defence Group
radar, the communicator said, "Shilo 27, make your cockerell crow". I
replied, "Sorry, I think I'm the only living tissue aboard." * I can almost
see the raised eyebrows and knowing looks in the control room - especially
since the loudspeaker gives everyone an ear. This interchange was superceded
by "Sqawk XXXX" ["make your parrot squawk.."] but that's where it came
from......
Again, much obliged, suh.
Ferg
A064
* - I now suspect that wasn't true. Kerosene gave rise to strange tiny
creatures which ate various units in the 'plane. Also, by our losing about 5
pounds of weight an hour (in summer), our flying suits were home to pounds
of salt and other various living organisms. But I digress...............
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Fule filler tube |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Timothy.P.Ward" <ward.t@xtra.co.nz>
Dave,
The Fuel Filler Pipes are still available, See
http://forum.okhuijsen.org/TWardStuff
or the Europa Club Website.
Please email me
ward.t@xtra.co.nz
if you require one.
Cheers,
Tim
>
> From: "Dave Anderson" <dja767@charter.net>
> Date: 2004/09/13 Mon AM 02:34:44 GMT+12:00
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Europa-List: Fule filler tube
>
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Dave Anderson" <dja767@charter.net>
>
> I recall somebody who was making fuel tank filler tubes out of aluminum? I would
like to see about getting one of those to replace what I have, which is not
as good as it could be.
>
> Does anybody know about this?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Tim Ward
12 Waiwetu Street
Fendalton
Christchurch.
Ph. 0064 33515166
ward.t@xtra.co.nz
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Open Response to Dave (Buzz) |
--> Europa-List message posted by: DaveBuzz@aol.com
Hello Ira, I am back... (thanks for the forward, Jeremy)
<<<<<<<<
>Hi Dave,
>First, I did not say the largest market, I said one of the >largest markets
You are quite correct
>Second with all due respect for your position as President of >the Europa club,
telling you the good news alone is not nearly >the same as telling Europa Owners.
Rather more like a third to >a fifth of the thousand kits sold. I know
for a fact that >Andy, at least, is not nearly so web- clueless as the sad case
>of the Europa employees who sent that sad missive to the Club >begging publicity,
and completely ignorant of the list, the >web site and everyone else.
The Europa Club has over 400 Members: The release went out to Club Members first.
Andy and the rest of the new staff have a lot of work on: To blast off at
them after five days existence is not cricket (I understand if you dont understand
cricket ;-)
>Third, I think it is completely reasonable and proud to be UK >centric. You guys
have a fine product and are deservidly >proud. It is just a lousy business
plan.
Yes, the Europa is a great British product (with plenty of US parts too) - What
plan? Nobody has mentioned the Europa Aircraft business plan.
>Fourth, the US builders have in proportion been hurt more by
>the old company than UK builder where the parts pipeline >persisted longer and
no one was held up by imaginary container >shipments.
I think not. Europa owners worldwide were stuffed by the previous Management
without discrimination - For the US in some cases John Hurst was able to supply
parts for US owners when they were not available to EMIL. But that is the measure
of John, who, I believe, now has other employment and therefore MAY not
be immediately available to Europa Aircraft (2004) Ltd.
>Therefore, even a casual neglect of the folks on this side is >taken as an affront,
intended or not. Knowing Andy and Nev >from many hours at Oshkosk and SnF
I have the highest respect
>and appreciation for them even though I never called them for >assistence (OK,
calling to complain about mismolded parts is >another issue). I only wish success
for them. ( Even if Nev >still owes Russ amd me the plans for the balsa model)
The Club has neglected no-one, casually or not. The staff at the Factory are
damn busy trying to rebuild the operation. They will not get everything right
first, or on, time - and neither will I: It wont stop us trying though.
>I have had a number of US owners write me privately to tell me >how they have
been screwed by Keith and Europa. While I am >done, except for glider wings,
and I have tried the whole time >to help Europa, even to the extent of working
in the tent
>trying to sell kits, none of us feel warm and fuzzy about >being relegated to
second class Europa citizens.
And I have had a lot more write to me, and to other Club Committee Members, from
Worldwide, and I have just looked again at the list that we have of builders
owed parts/money by the previous regime: I'll tell you, I am so saddened when
I look at that list. Glider wings are something that the Club would really
like to see back in supply, and we may be able to assist Europa with that aim.
As for second-class citizens, I hope you are not referring to non-Club Members,
as you are according to my latest Membership list. Owners become a Europa Club
Member by making the effort to join, and believing that the Club will further
their Europa ownership.
If you choose not to join, then that is your own decision:
Do not complain to me when Club Members get something you don't.
>Why is the company web site always obsolete?
Actually, John Hurst did most of the work on the website.
>Why even now, do the company principles rely information 2nd >hand transfer. They
have the same free access to the web and >the list as all of us. What are
they afraid of?
Statements have been put out and I am sure the new company will be in touch with
owners soon. It's only a minority of Europans who use the internet - Yes,
I'm still suprised at that too.
>Flame off
>No quotes of old news needed
>Ira
>in this case carrying the sentiments of many
We are probably both trying to do the same thing Ira, but whereas I feel responsible
for trying to help Europa owners Worldwide, you only appear to consider
North American owners (sorry Ferg!).
chus,
Dave,
Carrying the optimism of Europa owners and Club Members worldwide.
Message 31
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| Subject: | mono gear retraction |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Mike Gamble" <mp.gamble@virgin.net>
Ferg, Paul and Graham - thanks for your input.
I guess I shall have to groove the tunnel sidewall to inset the stb brake cable
clear of the caliper (allowing for its movement outboard with wear) and possibly
fit another tufnel block to realign the cable with the pulley.
I would rather not cut the wall and move the brake cylinder outboard so where do
you think an u/c stop should go Graham?
Thanks
Mike Gamble
XS440mono
ps Would a 2ft strip of rigid steel through the u/c selector slot make a good emergy
u/c release?
Message 32
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|
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
Dave,
I am delighted to see you took the time and energy to reply to
Ira. This is not the first time he has assumed that if he pays, everyone
owes him.
He needed that...............
Cheers, Ferg
there's always one.
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Open Response to Dave (Buzz) |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Rocketman <topglock@cox.net>
R.C.Harrison wrote:
>--> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@ukonline.co.uk>
>
>Hi! Ira and the rest of the impatient bunch.
>I know there is a lot of wound licking to be done and I do have lots of
>sympathy for those deeply robbed, however it is quite apparent that those
>who are "ranting" for attention have never been involved in a regeneration
>event concerning a failed company. I have, I've been there, if I had my time
>over those making the loudest noise would have gone to the bottom of the
>list.
>You clearly don't understand the logistics of the tasks to be done in a very
>orderly manner, the new team must have time to establish sub-contractors,
>credit facilities, commence manufacturing lead times and I'm sure perhaps
>negotiate new suppliers of some parts since there may well be some
>contractors who have lost lots more than some would be builders, and in
>consequence will not take kindly to resumption of supplies without some
>guarantes.
>I suggest that when the UK base is back on a firm footing then the "ducks"
>in the States might begin to get put in line.
>I'm sure Andy and Co. can't afford to tell you this but I as a past customer
>can , just get off their backs for a week or two and let them do their
>dillegent thing or you will have a second company failure.
>regards
>Bob Harrison G-PTAG
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu>
>To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Europa-List: Open Response to Dave (Buzz)
>
>
>
>
>>--> Europa-List message posted by: irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu
>>
>>Hi Dave,
>>
>>First, I did not say the largest market, I said one of the largest markets
>>
>>Second with all due respect for your position as President of the Europa
>>club,
>>telling you the good news alone is not nearly the same as telling Europa
>>Owners.
>>Rather more like a third to a fifth of the thousand kits sold. I know for
>>a fact
>>that Andy, at least, is not nearly so web- clueless as the sad case of the
>>Europa
>>employees who sent that sad missive to the Club begging publicity, and
>>completely ignorant of the list, the web site and everyone else.
>>
>>Third, I think it is completely reasonable and proud to be UK centric.
>>You guys have a fine product and are deservidly proud. It is just a
>>lousy business plan.
>>
>>Fourth, the US builders have in proportion been hurt more by
>>the old company than UK builder where the parts pipeline persisted
>>longer and no one was held up by imaginary container shipments.
>>
>>Therefore, even a casual neglect of the folks on this side is taken as an
>>affront, intended or not.
>>Knowing Andy and Nev from many hours at Oshkosk and SnF I have the highest
>>respect
>>and appreciation for them even though I never called them for assistence
>>(OK, calling to complain
>>about mismolded parts is another issue). I only wish success for them. (
>>Even if Nev still
>>owes Russ amd me the plans for the balsa model)
>>
>>I have had a number of US owners write me privately to tell me how they
>>have been
>>screwed by Keith and Europa. While I am done, except for glider wings,
>>and I have tried the
>>whole time to help Europa, even to the extent of working in the tent
>>trying to sell kits, none
>>
>>
>...... Bla.....Bla.....Bla.....
>
>
>
>
I know that I am a relative newcomer to this board, but please consider
this: While not suffering having paid for something I didn't get, I am
at a point where I can't get the parts I need to finish my bird, so I do
share some of the trepidation that others are suffering and, yes I am
U.S. based....
Give me a brake, guys! If Europa is going to survive, it's going to take
cooperation from all of us. The only way this company is going to get
back up and going is for everyone to be patient and keep the unnecessary
pressure off. If you've got as problem with that, sell what parts you
do have and get them back into the stream, where someone else can add
them to his kit. If you're set on finishing, get on with it. If you've
got "nothing" to do, until you receive other parts, take a break - go
rent a plane and do some flying. That's exactly what the missus and I
did, this morning. Very relaxing. Try it sometimes.
Bob, Fred, Dave, you're right. Andy and Nev, you have my support.
Anything I can do to help smooth thing out, please let me know...
--
Jeff - A055
Builders Log: http://www.N55XS.com
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Open Response to Dave (Buzz) |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Garry Stout" <garrys@tampabay.rr.com>
In defense of Ira, I think one of the main messages he was trying to make
was that the very FIRST thing the new owners should have done was to send a
letter to all Europa owners, saying something like.........
"Hi, my name is Joe Blow (or whatever), and I have recently purchased the
Europa Kit business. I want to apologize to any and all who have been
inconvenienced by the recent developments and want to assure you that I will
do everything possible to make things right with everyone. Over the next
several weeks I will be assessing the state of the business, and developing
a business recovery plan to get the parts and kit pipeline up and running.
I will continue to communicate periodically and directly to all of you. In
the interim, I will appreciate your patience as things get sorted out.
Thank you."
A letter something like the above should have been sent out either ahead of,
or concurrently with notification to the Europa Club, and to the aviation
press. I believe if this letter had been sent to all of us, you wouldn't
have heard a single whine or bitch. That we've had no direct communication
simply makes us suspicious.
What say you, new owners? Care to communicate directly with us?
Garry Stout
N4220S Trigear, 350 hrs.
----- Original Message -----
From: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@ukonline.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Open Response to Dave (Buzz)
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison"
> <ptag.dev@ukonline.co.uk>
>
> Hi! Ira and the rest of the impatient bunch.
> I know there is a lot of wound licking to be done and I do have lots of
> sympathy for those deeply robbed, however it is quite apparent that those
> who are "ranting" for attention have never been involved in a regeneration
> event concerning a failed company. I have, I've been there, if I had my
> time
> over those making the loudest noise would have gone to the bottom of the
> list.
> You clearly don't understand the logistics of the tasks to be done in a
> very
> orderly manner, the new team must have time to establish sub-contractors,
> credit facilities, commence manufacturing lead times and I'm sure perhaps
> negotiate new suppliers of some parts since there may well be some
> contractors who have lost lots more than some would be builders, and in
> consequence will not take kindly to resumption of supplies without some
> guarantes.
> I suggest that when the UK base is back on a firm footing then the "ducks"
> in the States might begin to get put in line.
> I'm sure Andy and Co. can't afford to tell you this but I as a past
> customer
> can , just get off their backs for a week or two and let them do their
> dillegent thing or you will have a second company failure.
> regards
> Bob Harrison G-PTAG
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Europa-List: Open Response to Dave (Buzz)
>
>
>> --> Europa-List message posted by: irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu
>>
>> Hi Dave,
>>
>> First, I did not say the largest market, I said one of the largest
>> markets
>>
>> Second with all due respect for your position as President of the Europa
>> club,
>> telling you the good news alone is not nearly the same as telling Europa
>> Owners.
>> Rather more like a third to a fifth of the thousand kits sold. I know
>> for
>> a fact
>> that Andy, at least, is not nearly so web- clueless as the sad case of
>> the
>> Europa
>> employees who sent that sad missive to the Club begging publicity, and
>> completely ignorant of the list, the web site and everyone else.
>>
>> Third, I think it is completely reasonable and proud to be UK centric.
>> You guys have a fine product and are deservidly proud. It is just a
>> lousy business plan.
>>
>> Fourth, the US builders have in proportion been hurt more by
>> the old company than UK builder where the parts pipeline persisted
>> longer and no one was held up by imaginary container shipments.
>>
>> Therefore, even a casual neglect of the folks on this side is taken as an
>> affront, intended or not.
>> Knowing Andy and Nev from many hours at Oshkosk and SnF I have the
>> highest
>> respect
>> and appreciation for them even though I never called them for assistence
>> (OK, calling to complain
>> about mismolded parts is another issue). I only wish success for them. (
>> Even if Nev still
>> owes Russ amd me the plans for the balsa model)
>>
>> I have had a number of US owners write me privately to tell me how they
>> have been
>> screwed by Keith and Europa. While I am done, except for glider wings,
>> and I have tried the
>> whole time to help Europa, even to the extent of working in the tent
>> trying to sell kits, none
> ...... Bla.....Bla.....Bla.....
>
>
>
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re Open Letter and New Europa |
09/12/2004 05:42:02 PM,
Serialize complete at 09/12/2004 05:42:02 PM
--> Europa-List message posted by: irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu
Gentlemen, Gentlemen
Please,
What is this about waiting a month for the company to get settled?
I did not in any way complain that new company was not shipping parts or
satisfying customers,
in ways that require a period of transitiion.
I merely remarked that being UK-centric, their advising the Club alone as
the corpus of owners
blithely ignored the vast majority of owners who reside outside the club
and the UK. It is
solely that issue which I was addressing, one which required only a
moment's thought,
not an inventory or hiring of personnel or restarting the stamping
machines, or rebuilding
their vendor network. Just a thought (on the part of whoever sent the
press release):
Who are my customers and how can we show them a courtesy
My criticisms have been strictly contructive because I want the company to
be successful
I will even rejoin the club, UK-centric as it is just as I did originally,
for team spirit, even though
the newsletters I was looking forward to never progressed beyond #36
apiece on the site.
Flame response off
Sometimes, someone must, after a decent interval, announce the queen has
no clothes
Ira N224XS
sustained climb of 2000'/m at 2500' density altitude and 600'/min at
12500 density altitude
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re Open Letter and New Europa |
09/12/2004 05:43:22 PM,
Serialize complete at 09/12/2004 05:43:22 PM
--> Europa-List message posted by: irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu
Gentlemen, Gentlemen
Please,
What is this about waiting a month for the company to get settled?
I did not in any way complain that new company was not shipping parts or
satisfying customers,
in ways that require a period of transitiion.
I merely remarked that being UK-centric, their advising the Club alone as
the corpus of owners
blithely ignored the vast majority of owners who reside outside the club
and the UK. It is
solely that issue which I was addressing, one which required only a
moment's thought,
not an inventory or hiring of personnel or restarting the stamping
machines, or rebuilding
their vendor network. Just a thought (on the part of whoever sent the
press release):
Who are my customers and how can we show them a courtesy
My criticisms have been strictly contructive because I want the company to
be successful
I will even rejoin the club, UK-centric as it is just as I did originally,
for team spirit, even though
the newsletters I was looking forward to never progressed beyond #36
apiece on the site.
Flame response off
Sometimes, someone must, after a decent interval, announce the queen has
no clothes
Ira N224XS
sustained climb of 2000'/m at 2500' density altitude and 600'/min at
12500 density altitude
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Re Open Letter and New Europa |
--> Europa-List message posted by: DaveBuzz@aol.com
.. and I welcome your joining the Club, Ira.
I've just had a look and of the 162 non-UK Members, 55 of those are now from
the USA. And the only reason the Club is 'UK-centric'... is because we *seldom*
hear from the rest of the World 8-0) !!!
Yes John, I was interested in your trip down the East Coast to Florida a year
or so ago, and Richard's article about operating in Kenya was amazing.
What do the rest of you get up to with your Europas?
Articles (NOT to me please!) to our new Editor:
Peter Grant
peter@us-eurolink.co.uk
chus,
dave
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Open Response to Dave (Buzz) |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson <rowil@clara.net>
At 2004-09-12 17:40 -0400 Garry Stout wrote:
>the very FIRST thing the new owners should have done was to send a
>letter to all Europa owners
Garry - I guess this expectation is based on the assumption that the
factory was sold intact and fully functional, with all computers and
files in apple-pie order so a mail-merge letter could be sent out as
soon as they walked in the door. That _may_ not be the case. And
perhaps before spending several hundred pounds on postage, the new
owners might want to take stock and make sure they could stand behind
anything written in a letter to all builders and owners. By the way,
even airmail letters can take several days to reach overseas
destinations, so if they'd been posted the same day the press release
went out, most people abroad would still not have received them.
Take a moment to consider the following _hypothetical_ situation.
Imagine that you have done some things you shouldn't have done, such
as take money for goods you couldn't supply. As you leave smartly by
the side door to avoid the ensuing fuss, do you wipe the computer
files and anything else that might implicate you, or leave them to
assist anyone investigating your actions? Remember, people and events
in this scenario are entirely fictitious - but if it was you, and you
had been prepared to do something slightly unethical in the first
place, what do you think you would choose to do with the evidence?
regards
Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson PFA #16532 <http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/>
| 710 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail <rowil@clara.net>
Message 39
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Dave Anderson" <dja767@charter.net>
I would like to follow up a previous email briefly. I mentioned that a builder
ordered an Airmaster prop and never received it. Just to clear things up in case
there is any misunderstanding, as far as I know the situation, the money he
paid for the prop went to Europa and never made it to Airmaster. Obviously this
is no fault of Airmaster. I have an Airmaster prop and have had superb service
and support from Airmaster - no complaints there at all.
I hope this clears it up.
Dave
A227
Mini U2
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: Open Response to Dave (Buzz) |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "karelvranken" <karelvranken@hotmail.com>
Ramp has in English more than one signification. In Dutch it means disaster.
Karel Vranken # 447 F-PKRL
----- Original Message -----
From: <irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu>
Subject: Europa-List: Open Response to Dave (Buzz)
> --> Europa-List message posted by: irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu
>
> Hi Dave,
>
> First, I did not say the largest market, I said one of the largest markets
>
> Second with all due respect for your position as President of the Europa
> club,
> telling you the good news alone is not nearly the same as telling Europa
> Owners.
> Rather more like a third to a fifth of the thousand kits sold. I know for
> a fact
> that Andy, at least, is not nearly so web- clueless as the sad case of the
> Europa
> employees who sent that sad missive to the Club begging publicity, and
> completely ignorant of the list, the web site and everyone else.
>
> Third, I think it is completely reasonable and proud to be UK centric.
> You guys have a fine product and are deservidly proud. It is just a
> lousy business plan.
>
> Fourth, the US builders have in proportion been hurt more by
> the old company than UK builder where the parts pipeline persisted
> longer and no one was held up by imaginary container shipments.
>
> Therefore, even a casual neglect of the folks on this side is taken as an
> affront, intended or not.
> Knowing Andy and Nev from many hours at Oshkosk and SnF I have the highest
> respect
> and appreciation for them even though I never called them for assistence
> (OK, calling to complain
> about mismolded parts is another issue). I only wish success for them. (
> Even if Nev still
> owes Russ amd me the plans for the balsa model)
>
> I have had a number of US owners write me privately to tell me how they
> have been
> screwed by Keith and Europa. While I am done, except for glider wings,
> and I have tried the
> whole time to help Europa, even to the extent of working in the tent
> trying to sell kits, none
> of us feel warm and fuzzy about being relegated to second class Europa
> citizens.
>
> Why is the company web site always obsolete?
>
> Why even now, do the company principles rely information 2nd hand
> transfer.
> They have the same free access to the web and the list as all of us. What
> are they afraid of?
>
> Flame off
>
> No quotes of old news needed
>
>
> Ira
> in this case carrying the sentiments of many
>
>
Message 41
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| Subject: | fuel filler tube |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "de Geus" <kl.degeus@quicknet.nl>
Hello builders
I found out on the site that a lot of builders install an alluminium fuel filler
pipe, Can anyone explain the reason.
from Klaas de Geus
kit 391 Netherlands
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