Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:43 AM - Re: Europa Partition and my Conscience. Cont'd (Johnsen, Svein K.)
2. 01:08 AM - Re: Europa Partition and my Conscience. (Steve Pitt)
3. 01:43 AM - Fw: Lost dreams..... (R.C.Harrison)
4. 02:05 AM - Re: Use of a Dynon in a Permit Aircraft (David Joyce)
5. 03:31 AM - Araldite exp date (p-a.austin)
6. 05:52 AM - Re: Europa Partition and my Conscience. ()
7. 06:38 AM - skinned tail-kit for sale (Europa)
8. 06:50 AM - Re: (Alan Burrows)
9. 07:11 AM - Re: Copper State Fly-In (David Legge dlegge)
10. 07:17 AM - Re: Europa Partition and my Conscience. (ivor.phillips)
11. 08:35 AM - Re: Re: (EuropaXSA276@aol.com)
12. 08:46 AM - Re: Europas for sale (Craig Ellison)
13. 09:10 AM - EMIL Administrators Report (Fred R. Klein)
14. 09:29 AM - Re: Copper State Fly-In (DuaneFamly@aol.com)
15. 10:38 AM - Re: Europa Partition and my Conscience. (Rowland Carson)
16. 10:38 AM - Re: Europa Partition and my Conscience. (Rowland Carson)
17. 10:38 AM - [off-topic] writing dates [was: ARALDITE 420 exp date] (Rowland Carson)
18. 11:59 AM - Re: [off-topic] writing dates [was: ARALDITE 420 exp date] (Jeremy Davey)
19. 12:39 PM - Re: Europa Partition and my Conscience. (MICHAEL PARKIN)
20. 12:39 PM - Re: Europa Partition and my Conscience. (MICHAEL PARKIN)
21. 12:39 PM - Re: Europa Partition and my Conscience. (MICHAEL PARKIN)
22. 12:42 PM - Re: Europa Partition and my Conscience. (MICHAEL PARKIN)
23. 01:41 PM - Re: Europa Partition and my Conscience. (Jeremy Davey)
24. 03:22 PM - Re: Europa Partition and my Conscience. (NevEyre@aol.com)
25. 04:59 PM - Re: Europa-List Digest: 58 Msgs - 09/23/04 (Graham Singleton)
26. 05:22 PM - Re: Europas for sale (Robert Berube)
27. 07:43 PM - Re: Europas for sale (Craig Ellison)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Europa Partition and my Conscience. Cont'd |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Johnsen, Svein K." <Svein.Johnsen@MossWW.com>
All,
Please - can we get off the back of Europa 2004 and let them establish their business,
and then we can all judge them by their actions when we see how they are
actually trading?
Regards,
Svein
A225 - now in Norway
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Europa Partition and my Conscience. |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Steve Pitt" <steven.pitt2@ntlworld.com>
Hear, hear to Tony K.
It saddens me that this whole issue has happened and in any
administration/liquidation creditors get hurt. In this case the Europa is
more than the money and more than a washing machine or other chattel; it is
a passion, a desire, we want to feel it and fly in it and we cannot go to
another manufacturer and buy the same item with another brand name.
I feel for anyone who is short of parts (or complete aircraft) but having
been in Banking all my life I have seen this loss happen too often (not by
my actions (before anyone has a pop at Bank Managers!)).
With regard to the two factory aircraft, as they were mortgaged to
Slingsby it was up to them to place a value on them and take off their
preferential claim whatever they got for them. The value received does not
appear to have undermined anyone else other than Slingsby. I am just jealous
that I did not see the opportunity - good luck to the new owners.
Might I suggest that
1) Europa 2004 are given all the time and support we can give and
2) that we follow whatever legal process is required in the UK (as EMIL
was governed by UK Company law) to see what recovery can be had. Regrettably
I see little recourse (in view of the Limited Liability clause) other than
an explanation, which has not come forward so far.
I am sure we must have company lawyers in our midst who will know the
rules far better than me and could advise appropriately.
I, for one, am desperate to see the Europa name go on as I desperately try
to get my trigear flying after 6 years hard work.
My best wishes go out to all Europa people wherever and in whatever
circumstances you are.
Steve Pitt, #403 G-SMDH
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Krzyzewski" <tonyk@kaon.co.nz>
To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 1:20 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa Partition and my Conscience.
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Tony Krzyzewski" <tonyk@kaon.co.nz>
>
>
>>> I want a response to whether a partition is appropriate, where
> everyone including those outside the Europa Club can air their
> collective desire to partition Europa 2004 for the parts supply
> outstanding prior to our support. Simple, and fair.
>
> Fact: Europa 2004 is a completely different business entity from EMIL.
>
> Europa 2004 paid money to acquire some of the assets of EMIL but you
> cannot make any assumption that items such as customer records, computer
> systems and accounting records were part of that acquisition. Without
> the records, or as it seems, even an operational internet connection as
> of yet, I think it'd be very hard for Europa 2004 to send personalised
> emails let alone letters to existing customers.
>
> As with any company ceasing to trade and having its assets purchased by
> a new company, the new company has no responsibility for the losses of
> the previous company. This has been a business principal in most western
> countries for many years.
>
> I think that it's great that a bunch of people had enough faith in the
> Europa aircraft design to get together enough funds to be able to form a
> company. I have no doubt that some of these people have probably
> stretched their financial resources to get Europa 2004 up and running. I
> for one applaud their actions and intend supporting them in any way
> possible. Without our support Europa 2004 won't exist and we, as
> builders and owners of Europa aircraft, will be far worse off for it.
>
> Tony
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Fw: Lost dreams..... |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@ukonline.co.uk>
WITHOUT PREJUDICE.....
Hi! All.
I guess Tony Renshaw must be physic(You've not got a broom tucked away somewhere
have you Tony ?)
I was talking about the "unfortunates" caught up in this debacle last night and
wondering when the news would begin to sink in. Over the last say 15 years I
consider I have "shares" in major construction and road works locally to the
tune of around =A3100,000 due to companies going bust on me, yet there was no
shortfall on my credit control. However this is the real world, world over.
By good fortune I managed to trade through every instance but these occurrences
slowly sap your endeavour to trade on a credit basis except with "blue chip"
companies. The general public only get to see these daylight robbery situations
when slime like Wilson surface, against which the only defence is not to "pay
up front" or to get some form of Bank Guarantee, especially for some of the
huge figures involved in this debacle. Generally you wouldn't advance that kind
of money without involving an HP back up or perhaps some form of legal securred
credit commitment from the vendor. This jerk has traded on the personal dreams
and enthusiasm of would be builders who due to that enthusiasm have let
down their defences. However he didn't do it entirely unaided he used the forced
conscience of those around him who needed some employment income to not blow
the whistle earlier and also let's not forget the obvious laxidaisical credit
control of the major creditor who enjoyed a vast experience of profitable trade
throughout the Europa history who will recover a major part of their loss
at the expense of unsecurred creditors. Not to mention the fees of the Administrator
who seemingly has wasted lots of the Original Company records, not withstanding
their failure to sell the Company as a going concern and failure to recogonise
more realistic values of the demonstrator aircraft and the "Dutch Auction"
that went on.
It is Company Law that these records are retained in safe keeping for a period
of seven years.
May I suggest the possibility of credit card purchases with the new company and
with it the posibility of insurance protection of the goods failing to materialise?
The use of "middle" men or a handling company would be no protection to an unsuspecting
purchaser( might be a similar robber).
IMHO the most secure way of trading is to collect from source and pay at the time
of collection. Yes, it makes for lots of hassle for overseas clients but it
is an issue that has to be evaluated. Then there's established Letter of Credit
procedure and Bank Guarantees, Shipping Bills of Laden, Transfer of Ownership
etc.
On the question of the unfortunate folks who have been robbed, it occurs to me
that perhaps there are many unused parts with existing builders who have completed
or abandoned their project.
For instance I have a complete Mono Wheel main gear suspension available which
I would gladly make available to any organised scheme that would ensure it went
to a useful purpose for the benefit of someone who finds them selves in the
loss predicament.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Use of a Dynon in a Permit Aircraft |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
Peter, No doubt Jeremy (who is of course now the PFA or at least its
representative on earth) is shaping up to giving you a definitive ex
cathedra answer, but my understanding was that the PFA required an ASI, an
altimeter and a rev counter as proper steam age instruments and what else
you care to put in is entirely up to you. If your EFIS was a certified
instrument they might take it as a suitable substitute for any overlapping
functions but not otherwise.
Regards, David
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Rees <peter.rees05@ntlworld.com>
>
> Sorry, should have been clearer in stating my intentions - the AC
currently
> has an ASI, VSI, Alt and turn coordinator.
>
> It has no AH or DI. I can either fit a vacuum kit and steam instruments -
> lots of weight and old fashioned or, save up for ever and buy electric
> instruments or put a Dynon in - light, modern and not essential to flight
> safety so if it does go U/S, not a safety issue.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Araldite exp date |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "p-a.austin" <p-a.austin@xtra.co.nz>
Spoke at some length a while back to one of the head chemists in a major
company in this country that produces a broad range of Epoxy's etc and asked
him specifically about the expiry dates and there meaning, he replied that
as they are basically two inert substances until mixed and if stored
correctly in their containers there is not a problem as the exp date is for
company records and is deleted from their records at the said date."Meaning"
should you have a batch that is faulty or fails on you prior to the exp date
they will respond.
Maybe we should be asking ourselves is there an exp date on fibre glass, no
matter how lovingly cared for, does it have a "Life"?
Peter
Classic #198
. There are unopened containers
> of 420A and hardener with an expiration date of 05-04-03.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Europa Partition and my Conscience. |
--> Europa-List message posted by: <kbcarpenter@comcast.net>
I would agree to $100 to help those builders who have been left holding the
bag.
Ken Carpenter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Boulet" <possibletodo@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Partition and my Conscience.
> --> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Boulet <possibletodo@yahoo.com>
>
> I couldn't agree more.... altho $25 each probably
> won't be enuff count me in for helping out. Maybe
> $100 each is more appropriate
> Paul Boulet
> N914PB
> --- DJGeldermann <djgeldermann@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> --> Europa-List message posted by: "DJGeldermann"
>> <djgeldermann@cox.net>
>>
>> Just an idea (and a potential headache for Europa
>> Club Officers to arrange
>> details, track and dispense), but I would
>> voluntarily pay the Europa Club an
>> extra $25 per year above dues to pool with other
>> donations. The Club could
>> then send it off proportionately to those who paid
>> for parts and received
>> nothing. A little from a bunch of us each year
>> might start to add up over
>> time. This would be more productive than boycotting
>> the new company.
>> Dan
>> A-139
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "JEFF ROBERTS" <jeff@rmmm.net>
>> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Partition and my
>> Conscience.
>>
>>
>> > --> Europa-List message posted by: JEFF ROBERTS
>> <jeff@rmmm.net>
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sep 23, 2004, at 6:18 PM, Tony Renshaw wrote:
>> >
>> > > --> Europa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw
>> > > <tonyrenshaw@optusnet.com.au>
>> > >
>> > > and yet have the knowledge someone else's life
>> dream
>> > > has gone down the toilet. I think we should
>> unite and tell Europa 2004
>> > > that
>> > > until the outstanding kit builders have their
>> parts supplied, we are
>> > > not
>> > > going to support the new company! Simple isn't
>> it, and it gives guys
>> > > like
>> > > Larry Morgan some hope.
>> > I am with this Idea 100%. I am nearing the end of
>> my build but I know
>> > if it was me on the other end of the stick and
>> lost every penny I saved
>> > for this dream, I would be devistated! Not to
>> mention what my wife
>> > would say. Receiving the support of Europa
>> builders around the world be
>> > one of the best things that ever happened to me.
>> >
>> > > In case there are those out there who still are
>> of the view that we
>> > > should
>> > > keep our heads down and let Europa 2004 get on
>> with it, I haven't
>> > > received
>> > > a personal e-mail from the company. In today's
>> world this is
>> > > unacceptable
>> > >
>> > It would be nice to receive an up-dated direct
>> statement from the 2004
>> > boys. Wouldn't take much to say hello to the
>> builders on this forum.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > Jeff
>> > A258
>> >
>> > > _-
>> > >
>>
> =======================================================================
>> > > _-
>> > >
>>
> =======================================================================
>> > > _-
>> > >
>>
> =======================================================================
>> > > _-
>> > >
>>
> =======================================================================
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> Contributions
>> any other
>> Forums.
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/chat
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
>> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm
>> http://www.matronics.com/archives
>> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
>> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | skinned tail-kit for sale |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Europa <europa@brownfamily.org.uk>
Hi folks,
as one of the many who had money deposited with EMIL I've had a few
months to decide what to do with my part completed kit; wait for Europa
to rise from the ashes or sell up and move on. Not an easy choice but
I've made it, so I have some things to sell:
1. Tail kit. All skins done, rudder hinges and nutplate installed.
Tailplanes incidence set and ready for pip-pin drilling out. Trim tabs
installed. This equates to more than a pre-skinned tail kit.
2. 2 packs of araldite 420 expiry july 2005
3. 4 packs of ampreg 20 expiry sept 2005
4. quantity of bid on the roll
I have digital photos of the work as it progressed, and I can take
detailed photos/measurements for anyone who is interested.
So, if you're interested please email me : mailto:europa@brownfamily.org.uk
Andy Brown
Nairn, Highlands, Scotland
Message 8
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Burrows" <alan@kestrel-insurance.com>
That's just the sort of information someone should be collating and
building a "class action" against the crooks. Who would be interested in
funding it, The administrator told me he wanted 30k-40k UKP to look into
the books that deeply..!
Personally I'd rather give my money to a lawyer and get some value.
Alan
Off air now for 2 weeks in "windy Florida" :-)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Lmorgan822@aol.com
Subject:
--> Europa-List message posted by: Lmorgan822@aol.com
Wilson was trading while insovent and in fact tried to sell me a FWF kit
for half price as late as June 6 of this year. I have paid for phase II
and III received nothing and was told this AM by Europa, "tough" you
lose!!!!!!!
==
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
==
==
==
Message 9
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| Subject: | Copper State Fly-In |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "David Legge dlegge" <dlegge@socal.rr.com>
All
My plan at this point is to attend.
David Legge A287
Santa Clarita, CA
XS Conventional
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
DuaneFamly@aol.com
Subject: Europa-List: Copper State Fly-In
--> Europa-List message posted by: DuaneFamly@aol.com
To All,
Even before the Long Beach AOPA get together......there is the Copper State
Fly-In. Will there be any Europa's there? Or even some Europa builders?
My wife and I will travel down to Copper State for some warmth (it only got
to 75' F here in Redding today!...BRRRRR!!! ) and are going to try and make
the
AOPA Long Beach event on the return trip.
Mike Duane A207
Redding, California
XS Conventional Gear
Just about to put the top on but still finding little things to do before
that.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Europa Partition and my Conscience. |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "ivor.phillips" <ivor.phillips@ntlworld.com>
I would be willing to participate in this scheme if a central fund was set
up to administer it to the most worthy! i.e. The guys who have lossed the
most!
It could have happen to any one of us, and a few extra bucks/pounds here or
there wont make that much different to my overall build cost!!
Ivor Phillips
XS486 London UK
CM Installed, rudder cables complete,
trial fit top and wings,Undercarriage fitted,playing with tie bar
----- Original Message -----
From: <kbcarpenter@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Partition and my Conscience.
> --> Europa-List message posted by: <kbcarpenter@comcast.net>
>
> I would agree to $100 to help those builders who have been left holding
> the
> bag.
> Ken Carpenter
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul Boulet" <possibletodo@YAHOO.COM>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Partition and my Conscience.
>
>
>> --> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Boulet <possibletodo@yahoo.com>
>>
>> I couldn't agree more.... altho $25 each probably
>> won't be enuff count me in for helping out. Maybe
>> $100 each is more appropriate
>> Paul Boulet
>> N914PB
>> --- DJGeldermann <djgeldermann@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>> --> Europa-List message posted by: "DJGeldermann"
>>> <djgeldermann@cox.net>
>>>
>>> Just an idea (and a potential headache for Europa
>>> Club Officers to arrange
>>> details, track and dispense), but I would
>>> voluntarily pay the Europa Club an
>>> extra $25 per year above dues to pool with other
>>> donations. The Club could
>>> then send it off proportionately to those who paid
>>> for parts and received
>>> nothing. A little from a bunch of us each year
>>> might start to add up over
>>> time. This would be more productive than boycotting
>>> the new company.
>>> Dan
>>> A-139
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "JEFF ROBERTS" <jeff@rmmm.net>
>>> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
>>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Partition and my
>>> Conscience.
>>>
>>>
>>> > --> Europa-List message posted by: JEFF ROBERTS
>>> <jeff@rmmm.net>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Sep 23, 2004, at 6:18 PM, Tony Renshaw wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > --> Europa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw
>>> > > <tonyrenshaw@optusnet.com.au>
>>> > >
>>> > > and yet have the knowledge someone else's life
>>> dream
>>> > > has gone down the toilet. I think we should
>>> unite and tell Europa 2004
>>> > > that
>>> > > until the outstanding kit builders have their
>>> parts supplied, we are
>>> > > not
>>> > > going to support the new company! Simple isn't
>>> it, and it gives guys
>>> > > like
>>> > > Larry Morgan some hope.
>>> > I am with this Idea 100%. I am nearing the end of
>>> my build but I know
>>> > if it was me on the other end of the stick and
>>> lost every penny I saved
>>> > for this dream, I would be devistated! Not to
>>> mention what my wife
>>> > would say. Receiving the support of Europa
>>> builders around the world be
>>> > one of the best things that ever happened to me.
>>> >
>>> > > In case there are those out there who still are
>>> of the view that we
>>> > > should
>>> > > keep our heads down and let Europa 2004 get on
>>> with it, I haven't
>>> > > received
>>> > > a personal e-mail from the company. In today's
>>> world this is
>>> > > unacceptable
>>> > >
>>> > It would be nice to receive an up-dated direct
>>> statement from the 2004
>>> > boys. Wouldn't take much to say hello to the
>>> builders on this forum.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > Jeff
>>> > A258
>>> >
>>> > > _-
>>> > >
>>>
>> =======================================================================
>>> > > _-
>>> > >
>>>
>> =======================================================================
>>> > > _-
>>> > >
>>>
>> =======================================================================
>>> > > _-
>>> > >
>>>
>> =======================================================================
>>> > > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Contributions
>>> any other
>>> Forums.
>>>
>>> http://www.matronics.com/chat
>>>
>>> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
>>> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm
>>> http://www.matronics.com/archives
>>> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
>>> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 11
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--> Europa-List message posted by: EuropaXSA276@aol.com
Alan...
Did you just use the words Lawyer and Value in the same sentence?!!!!!
Sorry. Just couldn't help myself.
Do not archive.
Brian S
A276 Tri Gear. Texas
See my build photos at:
http://forum.okhuijsen.org/BrianS
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Europas for sale |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Craig Ellison" <craig.ellison2@verizon.net>
Hi Bob,
I would be interested in a FWF kit it you had one available. I have my
engine(914) be never received the cowlings and rest of the kit.
craig ellison
A205
silverton, OR
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Berube" <bberube@tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: Europa-List: Europas for sale
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Robert Berube"
<bberube@tampabay.rr.com>
>
> It may be of interest to potential Europa Builders that Flight Crafters
does
> have several kits available from unstarted to completed aircraft. These
> aircraft offer a great value to future owners with substantially reduced
> pricing. We would be happy to assist in packing and shipping to any
> country.
>
>
> Contact us offline for information.
>
>
> All the best to everyone,
>
>
> Bob Berube
>
> Flight Crafters
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | EMIL Administrators Report |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred R. Klein" <fklein@orcasonline.com>
Hi All,
Can't say that I'm too surprised to read this report; I thank Ian Rickard
for distilling it down to its regrettable essence.
On 9/12/04 I wrote in part:
> Just how the new company chooses to balance the challenging equation of the
> goodwill of their customer base, their legal obligations, and their
> available resources remains to be seen and will, no doubt, influence the
> prospects for success of the new company.
After reading Ian's abstract of the report, it doesn't seem like there's any
blood left in that turnip.
And as Tony K. points out,
> As with any company ceasing to trade and having its assets purchased by
> a new company, the new company has no responsibility for the losses of
> the previous company. This has been a business principal in most western
> countries for many years.
I've had no illusions...notwithstanding the several straight up guys in the
old company...that I've been dealing with a corporation, and I've never
dreamed that any one of those guys would personally take on the obligations
of the corporation; after all, the essence of the corporate world is to
shield individuals from such obligations.
On the other hand, if fraud has occurred...and determining that is the work
of a sleuthful UK solicitor...an individual creditor may find some relief.
I'd be hardpressed not to hire someone to do some digging for me if I was
out say $15 - $30K. But if the UK is anything like the US, you can throw a
lot of money at a lawsuit and, even when you prevail, end up with nothing
more than an uncollectible judgement.
Perhaps...collectively...we could get a legal opinion on the issue of fraud?
What if those of us who are owed parts (and I am one of them) or entire kits
put say 5% of the value owed into a kitty to fund such an opinion?
The underlying assumption of a bankruptcy proceeeding is of course that
there is some societal benefit to have a legal process which allows new
ownership of a failed enterprise to carry on without the previous debt load;
and in this case, it is the Europa community of pilots and builders which
benefits from this process...notwithstanding the regrettable losses of
individual builders.
I for one support the new company whose success is essential unless I were
willing for the Europa design to become a footnote in the history of
kitplanes; the Europa is just too good of a design to let that happen. If I
were the owner of the new company, my efforts would be focused on
reconstituting my supply chain and marketing efforts to new buyers; these
are the "make or break" issues to make the new company viable. Sad to say,
only then would I attempt to address the un-met obligations to customers of
the old company.
I say all of this against my personal experience of buying a kitplane (a
Q-200) just prior to the company (Quickie Aircraft) going belly-up; though I
have all the airframe parts (to an admittedly quirky design), I've never
proceeded to build it because, among other reasons, there was no longer a
company to support the design.
Fred
A194
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Copper State Fly-In |
--> Europa-List message posted by: DuaneFamly@aol.com
Well, that appears to be three of us.
David, Dan, & Mike (me).....anyone else? Anyone flying their Europa in?
Do Not Archive
Mike Duane A207
Redding, California
XS Conventional Gear
Just about to put the top on but still finding little things to do before
that.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Europa Partition and my Conscience. |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson <rowil@clara.net>
At 2004-09-23 22:16 -0400 DJGeldermann wrote:
>Just an idea (and a potential headache for Europa Club Officers to arrange
>details, track and dispense), but I would voluntarily pay the Europa Club an
>extra $25 per year above dues to pool with other donations
Dan - off the top of my head, I see no technical or administrative
problems in the mechanics of collecting the money. It would be some
extra work for the Membership Secretary and the Treasurer, but
probably not a killer. Paying it out in various other currencies
might be the thing that causes most problems - the banks like to
charge heavily for international transactions.
There are also legal and other aspects to consider, and I wouldn't
want to pre-empt the attitude of the Europa Club Committee to such a
proposal.
Looking at the list of creditors, it seems that some builders may
have included consequential losses in their claims to the
administrators. I believe donors might not wish to have the value of
consequential losses included in any proportioning scheme.
The administrator indicates that he does not have supporting evidence
for some creditors claims. Who would be appointed as the independent
arbitrator to determine whose claims should be included in any
donation-pooling scheme?
Don't wish to pour cold water on the idea, but I don't want to end up
being the guy that people are shouting "unfair" at!
regards
Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson Europa Club Membership Secretary - email for info!
| Europa 435 G-ROWI (710 hours building) PFA #16532
| e-mail <memsec@europaclub.org.uk> website <www.europaclub.org.uk>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Europa Partition and my Conscience. |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson <rowil@clara.net>
At 2004-09-24 09:18 +1000 Tony Renshaw wrote:
>Rowland
>Carlson is telling everyone that Europa has lost all of our e-mail
>addresses because of a transfer to broadband.
Tony - a small correction: my name is Rowland Carson, and I did not
make the above statement.
regards
Rowland
--
| Wilma & Rowland Carson <http://home.clara.net/rowil/>
| <rowil@clara.net> ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
Message 17
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| Subject: | [off-topic] writing dates [was: ARALDITE 420 exp date] |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson <rowil@clara.net>
At 2004-09-23 23:32 +0100 KARL HEINDL wrote:
>Pretty much the whole world uses date format D/M/Y, except the US
Apparently it's not widely known that the most populous contry in the
world uses neither the US nor the traditional European system of date
presentation. In China the order is Y-M-D, in accordance with the
international standard ISO 8601 for writing dates in all-numeric form.
You may have noticed that I have been using this date presentation
for some time (note the attribution string above).
It has the advantage of being consistent with all the other numbering
systems I (and many others) use, where the most significant digit is
at the left, and the least significant at the right. For instance,
times are normally displayed in that manner.
Another advantage is that it is less open to misinterpretation,
provided the year is written as 4 digits.
This also presentation allows dates to be sorted as plain text
without any special algorithms; the same applies if a time is
appended (as in my attribution string above).
The European presentation (D/M/Y) is based on the verbal order "the
24th day of the 9th month of the 4th year of the 21st century" which
on the face of it seems quite logical. But (except in a few special
circumstances) we don't commonly say "the 12th second of the 51st
minute of the 11th hour" for times, so there is an inconsistency
between how we describe larger and smaller units of time. For most
other numbers, english-speakers say the most-significant digit first,
and have abandoned such usages as "four & twenty blackbirds" although
it remains in other languages (eg "vierundzwanzig").
On the other hand, as far as I can determine, there is no logical
basis for the US date order (M/D/Y), other than to cause confusion
for the rest of the world.
The ISO presentation is completely logical, and I look forward to its
universal adoption.
regards
Rowland
--
| Wilma & Rowland Carson <http://home.clara.net/rowil/>
| <rowil@clara.net> ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
Message 18
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| Subject: | [off-topic] writing dates [was: ARALDITE 420 exp date] |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Jeremy Davey" <EuropaFlyer_3@msn.com>
It always amuses me on entering the US that the I-94 entry card asks for DoB
in DD-MM-YYYY order. Or maybe that fact such a tiny matter amuses me is a
reflection on the amount of G&T I've drunk over the Atlantic!
Jeremy Davey
Europa Monowheel 537M G-EZZA
Europa Club Vice-Chairman, Webmaster, PFA NC Representative
PFA EC Member
Tail done
Standard XS wings with mods underway
CM installed in fuse (with airbrakes fittings)
1200 build hours to date
Intended fit:
Rotax 914 turbo, Airmaster CS fully-feathering prop
Lots of lights, buttons, switches, gizmos, and alarms
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Europa Partition and my Conscience. |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "MICHAEL PARKIN" <mikenjulie.parkin@btopenworld.com>
Tony,
What planet are you from!!! A pettition against the new owners of Europa
2004 is the most ludicrous suggestion I have heard for a while. Unfortunate
as it may be, and there but for the grace of God go all of us, what happened
under EMIL is water under the bridge. The new management of Europa should
be applauded for trying to get the operation up and running again - NOT
villified for what the previous inept and dubious management did before.
If you bought a used car, would you expect to be held responsible for the
unpaid parking fines of the previous owner - I think not. Furthermore, if I
were the new owners of Europa, I would take great exception at your
inference that I lacked fairness and honour.
However, as part of the Europa Family, I have the deepest sympathy for those
prospective builders who have ordered kits and have been completely 'ripped
off'. I totally support the idea of a rescue fund for those who have lost
so much - perhaps we could negotiate with Europa 2004 to supply the missing
parts at cost price to those with genuine claims - it seems to me that some
people
have claimed for more than just missing parts. I would be happy to
contribute.
regards,
Mike Parkin (G-JULZ)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Renshaw" <tonyrenshaw@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Europa-List: Europa Partition and my Conscience.
> --> Europa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw
<tonyrenshaw@optusnet.com.au>
>
> Gidday,
> At the expense of compromising my continued parts supply from Europa I
> would like to make the following observations.
> Luckily for me I have most of what I need. I really struggle with my
> conscience to think that I can continue my build sourcing the last of the
> bits from Europa 2004 and yet have the knowledge someone else's life dream
> has gone down the toilet. I think we should unite and tell Europa 2004
that
> until the outstanding kit builders have their parts supplied, we are not
> going to support the new company! Simple isn't it, and it gives guys like
> Larry Morgan some hope. There is one other issue, how are we going to pay
> for our bits in the future? Are we going to pay in advance like before,
> prior to delivery? I should think this would be unwise. So, before Europa
> tell us this is the way it is going to be, maybe we should tell Europa
2004
> how we want it, need it.
> In case there are those out there who still are of the view that we should
> keep our heads down and let Europa 2004 get on with it, I haven't received
> a personal e-mail from the company. In today's world this is unacceptable
> not to have received a statement of intent of the new business. Rowland
> Carlson is telling everyone that Europa has lost all of our e-mail
> addresses because of a transfer to broadband. Might I suggest that the
> computers that used to hold those e-mails have been squirrelled away and
> are gone along with their contents. For Europa itself to not be making a
> general broadcast to the list requesting this information suggests
> potential "less than ideal management" already. I want a response to
> whether a partition is appropriate, where everyone including those outside
> the Europa Club can air their collective desire to partition Europa 2004
> for the parts supply outstanding prior to our support. Simple, and fair.
> Doesn't seem to be a lot of fairness and honour any more. Peeves me a tad.
>
>
> At 07:05 AM 9/24/2004, you wrote:
> >--> Europa-List message posted by: Lmorgan822@aol.com
> >
> >Nice to hear that someone is getting some service. I paid in full for an
> >airplane and this morning was basically told, "tough luck"!!!!! YOU
> >LOSE!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> >Larry Morgan
> >
> >
>
> Reg
> Tony Renshaw
> Sydney Australia
>
> Classic 236 B.B. Taildragger
> Tail, Wings, Ailerons, Flaps Complete and Connected
> Lower Fuse in Jig, and module most recently installed.
> Tail Torque Tube installed.
> Mass Balance assembly installed and deflections sorted
> Roof Panel between doors completed.
> Photos at:
> http://forum.okhuijsen.org/TonyR
> Intended Engine: 912S CS prop (model undecided)
> Instrumentation: Garmin 296 Colour GPS beneath an electronic Artificial
> Horizon, one that I can trust for short periods IMC, to get out of a
sticky
> situation
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Europa Partition and my Conscience. |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "MICHAEL PARKIN" <mikenjulie.parkin@btopenworld.com>
Tony,
What planet are you from!!! A pettition against the new owners of Europa
2004 is the most ludicrous suggestion I have heard for a while. Unfortunate
as it may be, and there but for the grace of God go all of us, what happened
under EMIL is water under the bridge. The new management of Europa should
be applauded for trying to get the operation up and running again - NOT
villified for what the previous inept and dubious management did before.
If you bought a used car, would you expect to be held responsible for the
unpaid parking fines of the previous owner - I think not. Furthermore, if I
were the new owners of Europa, I would take great exception at your
inference that I lacked fairness and honour.
However, as part of the Europa Family, I have the deepest sympathy for those
prospective builders who have ordered kits and have been completely 'ripped
off'. I totally support the idea of a rescue fund for those who have lost
so much - perhaps we could negotiate with Europa 2004 to supply the missing
parts at cost price to those with genuine claims - it seems to me that some
people
have claimed for more than just missing parts. I would be happy to
contribute.
regards,
Mike Parkin (G-JULZ)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Renshaw" <tonyrenshaw@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Europa-List: Europa Partition and my Conscience.
> --> Europa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw
<tonyrenshaw@optusnet.com.au>
>
> Gidday,
> At the expense of compromising my continued parts supply from Europa I
> would like to make the following observations.
> Luckily for me I have most of what I need. I really struggle with my
> conscience to think that I can continue my build sourcing the last of the
> bits from Europa 2004 and yet have the knowledge someone else's life dream
> has gone down the toilet. I think we should unite and tell Europa 2004
that
> until the outstanding kit builders have their parts supplied, we are not
> going to support the new company! Simple isn't it, and it gives guys like
> Larry Morgan some hope. There is one other issue, how are we going to pay
> for our bits in the future? Are we going to pay in advance like before,
> prior to delivery? I should think this would be unwise. So, before Europa
> tell us this is the way it is going to be, maybe we should tell Europa
2004
> how we want it, need it.
> In case there are those out there who still are of the view that we should
> keep our heads down and let Europa 2004 get on with it, I haven't received
> a personal e-mail from the company. In today's world this is unacceptable
> not to have received a statement of intent of the new business. Rowland
> Carlson is telling everyone that Europa has lost all of our e-mail
> addresses because of a transfer to broadband. Might I suggest that the
> computers that used to hold those e-mails have been squirrelled away and
> are gone along with their contents. For Europa itself to not be making a
> general broadcast to the list requesting this information suggests
> potential "less than ideal management" already. I want a response to
> whether a partition is appropriate, where everyone including those outside
> the Europa Club can air their collective desire to partition Europa 2004
> for the parts supply outstanding prior to our support. Simple, and fair.
> Doesn't seem to be a lot of fairness and honour any more. Peeves me a tad.
>
>
> At 07:05 AM 9/24/2004, you wrote:
> >--> Europa-List message posted by: Lmorgan822@aol.com
> >
> >Nice to hear that someone is getting some service. I paid in full for an
> >airplane and this morning was basically told, "tough luck"!!!!! YOU
> >LOSE!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> >Larry Morgan
> >
> >
>
> Reg
> Tony Renshaw
> Sydney Australia
>
> Classic 236 B.B. Taildragger
> Tail, Wings, Ailerons, Flaps Complete and Connected
> Lower Fuse in Jig, and module most recently installed.
> Tail Torque Tube installed.
> Mass Balance assembly installed and deflections sorted
> Roof Panel between doors completed.
> Photos at:
> http://forum.okhuijsen.org/TonyR
> Intended Engine: 912S CS prop (model undecided)
> Instrumentation: Garmin 296 Colour GPS beneath an electronic Artificial
> Horizon, one that I can trust for short periods IMC, to get out of a
sticky
> situation
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Europa Partition and my Conscience. |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "MICHAEL PARKIN" <mikenjulie.parkin@btopenworld.com>
Tony,
What planet are you from!!! A pettition against the new owners of Europa
2004 is the most ludicrous suggestion I have heard for a while. Unfortunate
as it may be, and there but for the grace of God go all of us, what happened
under EMIL is water under the bridge. The new management of Europa should
be applauded for trying to get the operation up and running again - NOT
villified for what the previous inept and dubious management did before.
If you bought a used car, would you expect to be held responsible for the
unpaid parking fines of the previous owner - I think not. Furthermore, if I
were the new owners of Europa, I would take great exception at your
inference that I lacked fairness and honour.
However, as part of the Europa Family, I have the deepest sympathy for those
prospective builders who have ordered kits and have been completely 'ripped
off'. I totally support the idea of a rescue fund for those who have lost
so much - perhaps we could negotiate with Europa 2004 to supply the missing
parts at cost price to those with genuine claims - it seems to me that some
people
have claimed for more than just missing parts. I would be happy to
contribute.
regards,
Mike Parkin (G-JULZ)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Renshaw" <tonyrenshaw@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Europa-List: Europa Partition and my Conscience.
> --> Europa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw
<tonyrenshaw@optusnet.com.au>
>
> Gidday,
> At the expense of compromising my continued parts supply from Europa I
> would like to make the following observations.
> Luckily for me I have most of what I need. I really struggle with my
> conscience to think that I can continue my build sourcing the last of the
> bits from Europa 2004 and yet have the knowledge someone else's life dream
> has gone down the toilet. I think we should unite and tell Europa 2004
that
> until the outstanding kit builders have their parts supplied, we are not
> going to support the new company! Simple isn't it, and it gives guys like
> Larry Morgan some hope. There is one other issue, how are we going to pay
> for our bits in the future? Are we going to pay in advance like before,
> prior to delivery? I should think this would be unwise. So, before Europa
> tell us this is the way it is going to be, maybe we should tell Europa
2004
> how we want it, need it.
> In case there are those out there who still are of the view that we should
> keep our heads down and let Europa 2004 get on with it, I haven't received
> a personal e-mail from the company. In today's world this is unacceptable
> not to have received a statement of intent of the new business. Rowland
> Carlson is telling everyone that Europa has lost all of our e-mail
> addresses because of a transfer to broadband. Might I suggest that the
> computers that used to hold those e-mails have been squirrelled away and
> are gone along with their contents. For Europa itself to not be making a
> general broadcast to the list requesting this information suggests
> potential "less than ideal management" already. I want a response to
> whether a partition is appropriate, where everyone including those outside
> the Europa Club can air their collective desire to partition Europa 2004
> for the parts supply outstanding prior to our support. Simple, and fair.
> Doesn't seem to be a lot of fairness and honour any more. Peeves me a tad.
>
>
> At 07:05 AM 9/24/2004, you wrote:
> >--> Europa-List message posted by: Lmorgan822@aol.com
> >
> >Nice to hear that someone is getting some service. I paid in full for an
> >airplane and this morning was basically told, "tough luck"!!!!! YOU
> >LOSE!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> >Larry Morgan
> >
> >
>
> Reg
> Tony Renshaw
> Sydney Australia
>
> Classic 236 B.B. Taildragger
> Tail, Wings, Ailerons, Flaps Complete and Connected
> Lower Fuse in Jig, and module most recently installed.
> Tail Torque Tube installed.
> Mass Balance assembly installed and deflections sorted
> Roof Panel between doors completed.
> Photos at:
> http://forum.okhuijsen.org/TonyR
> Intended Engine: 912S CS prop (model undecided)
> Instrumentation: Garmin 296 Colour GPS beneath an electronic Artificial
> Horizon, one that I can trust for short periods IMC, to get out of a
sticky
> situation
>
>
Message 22
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|
| Subject: | Re: Europa Partition and my Conscience. |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "MICHAEL PARKIN" <mikenjulie.parkin@btopenworld.com>
Tony,
What planet are you from!!! A pettition against the new owners of Europa
2004 is the most ludicrous suggestion I have heard for a while. Unfortunate
as it may be, and there but for the grace of God go all of us, what happened
under EMIL is water under the bridge. The new management of Europa should
be applauded for trying to get the operation up and running again - NOT
villified for what the previous inept and dubious management did before.
If you bought a used car, would you expect to be held responsible for the
unpaid parking fines of the previous owner - I think not. Furthermore, if I
were the new owners of Europa, I would take great exception at your
inference that I lacked fairness and honour.
However, as part of the Europa Family, I have the deepest sympathy for those
prospective builders who have ordered kits and have been completely 'ripped
off'. I totally support the idea of a rescue fund for those who have lost
so much - perhaps we could negotiate with Europa 2004 to supply the missing
parts at cost price to those with genuine claims - it seems to me that some
people have claimed for more than just missing parts. I would be happy to
contribute.
regards,
Mike Parkin (G-JULZ)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Renshaw" <tonyrenshaw@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Europa-List: Europa Partition and my Conscience.
> --> Europa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw
<tonyrenshaw@optusnet.com.au>
>
> Gidday,
> At the expense of compromising my continued parts supply from Europa I
> would like to make the following observations.
> Luckily for me I have most of what I need. I really struggle with my
> conscience to think that I can continue my build sourcing the last of the
> bits from Europa 2004 and yet have the knowledge someone else's life dream
> has gone down the toilet. I think we should unite and tell Europa 2004
that
> until the outstanding kit builders have their parts supplied, we are not
> going to support the new company! Simple isn't it, and it gives guys like
> Larry Morgan some hope. There is one other issue, how are we going to pay
> for our bits in the future? Are we going to pay in advance like before,
> prior to delivery? I should think this would be unwise. So, before Europa
> tell us this is the way it is going to be, maybe we should tell Europa
2004
> how we want it, need it.
> In case there are those out there who still are of the view that we should
> keep our heads down and let Europa 2004 get on with it, I haven't received
> a personal e-mail from the company. In today's world this is unacceptable
> not to have received a statement of intent of the new business. Rowland
> Carlson is telling everyone that Europa has lost all of our e-mail
> addresses because of a transfer to broadband. Might I suggest that the
> computers that used to hold those e-mails have been squirrelled away and
> are gone along with their contents. For Europa itself to not be making a
> general broadcast to the list requesting this information suggests
> potential "less than ideal management" already. I want a response to
> whether a partition is appropriate, where everyone including those outside
> the Europa Club can air their collective desire to partition Europa 2004
> for the parts supply outstanding prior to our support. Simple, and fair.
> Doesn't seem to be a lot of fairness and honour any more. Peeves me a tad.
>
>
> At 07:05 AM 9/24/2004, you wrote:
> >--> Europa-List message posted by: Lmorgan822@aol.com
> >
> >Nice to hear that someone is getting some service. I paid in full for an
> >airplane and this morning was basically told, "tough luck"!!!!! YOU
> >LOSE!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> >Larry Morgan
> >
> >
>
> Reg
> Tony Renshaw
> Sydney Australia
>
> Classic 236 B.B. Taildragger
> Tail, Wings, Ailerons, Flaps Complete and Connected
> Lower Fuse in Jig, and module most recently installed.
> Tail Torque Tube installed.
> Mass Balance assembly installed and deflections sorted
> Roof Panel between doors completed.
> Photos at:
> http://forum.okhuijsen.org/TonyR
> Intended Engine: 912S CS prop (model undecided)
> Instrumentation: Garmin 296 Colour GPS beneath an electronic Artificial
> Horizon, one that I can trust for short periods IMC, to get out of a
sticky
> situation
>
>
Message 23
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|
| Subject: | Europa Partition and my Conscience. |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Jeremy Davey" <EuropaFlyer_3@msn.com>
Well said, Mike! Especially the analogy to parking fines!
Let's concentrate on what we as a community can do to help our friends who
lost out (like donating unwanted parts), instead of this ridiculous idea of
shafting those who are trying to save this amazing aircraft from relegation
to the history books.
Above all, I support the idea of collectively attempting to get lost funds
back for those ripped off. Any legal eagles out there want to comment on the
viability of this?
Regards,
Jeremy
Jeremy Davey
Europa Monowheel 537M G-EZZA
Europa Club Vice-Chairman, Webmaster, PFA NC Representative
PFA EC Member
Tail done
Standard XS wings with mods underway
CM installed in fuse (with airbrakes fittings)
1200 build hours to date
Intended fit:
Rotax 914 turbo, Airmaster CS fully-feathering prop
Lots of lights, buttons, switches, gizmos, and alarms
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Europa Partition and my Conscience. |
--> Europa-List message posted by: NevEyre@aol.com
Tony, are you a complete Tw@ ? [ I recon you must be]
Disregarding the legal side of things [ new Company not responsable for the
old ones debts,] can you not understand that the three key Directors of Europa
2004 [ Jim Tucker, Roger Bull and John Wheeler] have put their own money in
to save the Europa from just being nothing but a dream ?
I am sure they won't mind me saying, that they are all at / close to the age
that most of us would be looking at retiring, Roger and John [ former
employees] could have just walked away from the mess left by Wilson, and I know
for a
fact, Jim was only going to get involved, if Europa looked like rolling over
and dieing.
Also, how dare you tar the Europa 2004 team with the same brush as used by
EMIL.
The three afore mentioned, and Andy Draper [ who has just become a dad again
[ it's a boy]] can be trusted without question, when we realised what was
happening at EMIL, [ only a few days before the end] John, Andy and myself
managed to diplomatically prevent some of you not to send money. Most of the goods
despatched in the last few days were down to John putting them in the post [
Ray couldn't be bothered].
Keith Wilson has gone, his sidekick, Ray [ weasel] Bedford [ who was in
daily contact with Wilson right up to the end] was not asked to stay, the rest
of
the ''deadwood'' was also cut out at the same time. These two are the ones who
should be hung, drawn and quartered.
I have not had the chance to talk to the team recently [ they are too busy
sorting out the mess] I have no idea what their plans are with regard to those
out there who were shafted by Wilson, I am certain they will do whatever they
can, but obviously, they cannot send everyone a kit at their expense.
After your comments Tony, if I were running Europa 2004, I would rip up your
file [ if indeed it still exists, after the reciever has been in] and tell you
to Foxtrot Oscar. Perhaps you should do the honourable thing and sell your
Europa and go build something else ? [ or if your conscience is troubling you,
give your Europa to someone who lost out ?]
Putting this sort of pressure on the team, is a sure fire way to screw things
up. I feel for those of you out there who have lost large amounts of money. I
have ten years of my life invested in Europa, I hope to be involved with both
' 2004 and the builders alike, for years to come. [ I have set up on my own,
but that is a different story]
Get real, or get lost !
Nev,
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Europa-List Digest: 58 Msgs - 09/23/04 |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton <graham@gflight.f9.co.uk>
At 23:56 23/09/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>EMIL Administrators Report
>
>--> Europa-List message posted by: Ctogs@aol.com
>
>Do the administrators know where the circa 1.3 mil owed went and whether
>they were trading whilst insolvent ? Roger
The ex financial director wrote a report to Kwislon at least 18 months ago
informing him he was at that point insolvent. Said director then resigned
and advised other directors to do the same. Copies still exist I'm told.
Graham
Message 26
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| Subject: | Europas for sale |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Robert Berube" <bberube@tampabay.rr.com>
Hi Craig,
I wish we had FWF kits as we need a couple ourselves. We should have on of
the latest Jabiru FWF installed on a tri-gear very soon and will put 100 hrs
of test time on it. It is a neat engine and perhaps is a viable option. We
have installed two others but they are not flying yet.
Regards,
Bob Berube
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Ellison
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europas for sale
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Craig Ellison"
<craig.ellison2@verizon.net>
Hi Bob,
I would be interested in a FWF kit it you had one available. I have my
engine(914) be never received the cowlings and rest of the kit.
craig ellison
A205
silverton, OR
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Berube" <bberube@tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: Europa-List: Europas for sale
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Robert Berube"
<bberube@tampabay.rr.com>
>
> It may be of interest to potential Europa Builders that Flight Crafters
does
> have several kits available from unstarted to completed aircraft. These
> aircraft offer a great value to future owners with substantially reduced
> pricing. We would be happy to assist in packing and shipping to any
> country.
>
>
> Contact us offline for information.
>
>
> All the best to everyone,
>
>
> Bob Berube
>
> Flight Crafters
>
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Europas for sale |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Craig Ellison" <craig.ellison2@verizon.net>
Bob,
Thanks anyway, I would be interested in the Jabiru had I not received my
Rotax. I will be interested in how that engine works out.
craig
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Berube" <bberube@tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europas for sale
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Robert Berube"
<bberube@tampabay.rr.com>
>
> Hi Craig,
> I wish we had FWF kits as we need a couple ourselves. We should have on
of
> the latest Jabiru FWF installed on a tri-gear very soon and will put 100
hrs
> of test time on it. It is a neat engine and perhaps is a viable option.
We
> have installed two others but they are not flying yet.
>
> Regards,
> Bob Berube
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Ellison
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europas for sale
>
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Craig Ellison"
> <craig.ellison2@verizon.net>
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> I would be interested in a FWF kit it you had one available. I have my
> engine(914) be never received the cowlings and rest of the kit.
>
> craig ellison
> A205
> silverton, OR
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert Berube" <bberube@tampabay.rr.com>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Europa-List: Europas for sale
>
>
> > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Robert Berube"
> <bberube@tampabay.rr.com>
> >
> > It may be of interest to potential Europa Builders that Flight Crafters
> does
> > have several kits available from unstarted to completed aircraft. These
> > aircraft offer a great value to future owners with substantially reduced
> > pricing. We would be happy to assist in packing and shipping to any
> > country.
> >
> >
> > Contact us offline for information.
> >
> >
> > All the best to everyone,
> >
> >
> > Bob Berube
> >
> > Flight Crafters
> >
> >
>
>
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