Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:15 AM - Re: Jabiru Support for Europa -- was: Firewall Forward-less (MICHAEL PARKIN)
2. 06:29 AM - Re: Jabiru 3300 Engine option (MICHAEL PARKIN)
3. 08:12 AM - Re: Jabiru 3300 Engine option (Jos Okhuijsen)
4. 11:50 AM - Firewall Forward-less List (Fred R. Klein)
5. 11:59 AM - Re: Jabiru 3300 Engine option (MICHAEL PARKIN)
6. 12:29 PM - Re: Jabiru Support for Europa -- was: Firewall Forward-less (Duncan McFadyean)
7. 12:41 PM - Re: Jabiru 3300 Engine option (Duncan McFadyean)
8. 03:07 PM - Jabiru Engine Questions (round 2 of 2) (Bruce)
9. 06:24 PM - Re: Jabiru Engine Questions (round 2 of 2) (Frank Wood)
10. 10:54 PM - Re: Jabiru Engine Questions (round 2 of 2) (DuaneFamly@aol.com)
11. 11:43 PM - Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly Posting] (Matt Dralle)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru Support for Europa -- was: Firewall Forward-less |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "MICHAEL PARKIN" <mikenjulie.parkin@btopenworld.com>
In the ball-park with Rotax, I'd say!
Hmmmm ...... only 24% more fuel per hour!!!
regards,
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Silvester" <info@suncoastjabiru.com>
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Jabiru Support for Europa -- was: Firewall
Forward-less
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Andy Silvester"
<info@suncoastjabiru.com>
>
> Thanks, Duncan. I'm assuming you're referring to UK gallons, so converting
> to US gallons, and taking my initial 22% improvement in consumption with
the
> new needle-and-jet setup, this means the Jabiru would be burning 3.1 UK
GPH
> based on your numbers. In the ball-park with Rotax, I'd say!
>
> Cheers
>
> Andy
>
> Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru 3300 Engine option |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "MICHAEL PARKIN" <mikenjulie.parkin@btopenworld.com>
Hi Andy,
If you are going to use the Europa web site as a market place for your
jabiru engines, can we cut to the bottom line.
How many Europa XS aircraft have flown with the Jabiru 3300 engine that have
not experienced severe cooling problems. I have only heard of 2 in the UK
and during trial flying - both aircraft had difficulty making the take-off
point before they overheated. I accept that this may well be a cowling
issue - but has it yet to be proven successfully?
And yes you are right, I am very satisfied with my Rotax 914.
regards,
Mike.
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru 3300 Engine option |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Jos Okhuijsen" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>
Hi Mike,
Why the agressiveness? I am happy you are happy with your Rotax 914.
For me and many others, we have still to decide which way to go.
So the development of a Jabiru fwf is interesting, if only from a
competition point of view. After all, the price of the Rotax fwf's is
rather high! Let's have a good look at alternatives. What's the situation
on the diesel front btw?
Jos Okhuijsen #600
Message 4
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| Subject: | Firewall Forward-less List |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred R. Klein" <fklein@orcasonline.com>
Hi All,
Here is a list of the FWF-less amongst us which includes only those who
responded to my request. I count only 34 of the 1000 Europas sold to be
engine-less; this was surprising to me, as I had anticipated that more would
have deferred the expense of the FWF kit until they were well along with
their airframe-build. If anyone missed my posting and wishes to be on the
list, feel free to email me off-list and I would be happy to add him/her to
it.
Only one person on the list noted that their FWF kit had been paid for and
yet was undelivered by the old Europa company.
I regret that my lack of anything beyond the most rudimentary computer
skills may mean that this list is not as user-friendly as it could be, but
at least the information is there for anyone who cares to make use of it.
Fred
A194
LIST OF EUROPA BUILDERS
LACKING
FIREWALL FORWARD KIT
as of Sept. 30, 2004
Gary R. Roberts
Kit A187 Europa XS Mono
(with structure in place for conversion
to conventional gear in thefuture)
Wings and flying surfaces done,
Cockpit module installed, TQ tube in
4030 N Paeo De Los Rancheros
Tucson, AZ 85745
GRRoberts3@juno.com
Fred Klein
A194, mono
control surfaces finished; workg on wings
Eastsound, WA, USA
fklein@orcasonline.com
Jack van Heeswijk
394 Trigear
Almost ready except engine and upholstery
(the Netherlands)
jac.vanheeswijk@hetnet.nl
Ross Hyndman
Kit 386, mono XS
not started
PO Box 98
Waihi, NZ
rhyndman@paradise.net.nz
Mike Duane A207, conv. gear
4360 Emily Way,
Redding, California 96001.
XS Conventional Gear
Just about to put the top on but...
DuaneFamly@aol.com
Raimo Toivio
#417, mono
installing flap mechanism into fuselage,
about 940 hrs actual building time completed
37500 Lempaala, Finland
raimo.toivio@rwm.fi
Andrew Jarvis
#599, Motor glider Monowheel..no wings
Prebuilt module not yet bonded in.
Probably going for Rotax 914 w/ feathering prop.
9 Palmers Way, Worthing,
West Sussex, England
ACJARVIS1@aol.com
Jos Okhuijsen
#600 mono, will probably want a 914
+ CS prop in 1 12 year from now
josok@ukolo.fi
Joe Proctor
A-272, Conventional Gear, Glider Wings
Just Starting
12255 SE 36th. Avenue
Milwaukie, Oregon 97222
pjoe2@qwest.net
Dean Seitz
A284 Tri gear high top XS and part NG (new style doors) N284A
Everything is in the fuselage, filling and sanding surfaces, working on
instrument panel wiring, wings ready to close, antennas in and wired.
Im will be needing a FWF kit soon.
Im also missing a starboard wing skin, windows and sleaves for the door
bolts.
2155 Autumn View dr
Orlando FL 32825
daseitz@cfl.rr.com
Alan Stills
A095, Tri-Gear
Currently sanding & filling while waiting for a
Firewall foreward, Planning on rotax 912 S, may change to Jabiru.
23826 N. 65th Dr
Glendale, Ariz. 85310
astills@cox.net
Craig Ellison
A205, mono
Painting, ready to hang the engine
4220 Victor Pt. Rd.
Silverton, OR 97381
craig.ellison2@verizon.net
Bill Bell & Sue Brooks
#465 XS Trigear
About to bond top on.
St Albans, UK
billandsue@billbell.co.uk
Garry Copeland
#513 mono
fuselage join imminent
flying control surfaces and wings complete
Maidenhead, England.
garrett.copeland@btinternet.com
Chris and Sue Beck
A159, mono
Wings/tail mostly complete.
About ready to start the fuse
West Bend, WI.
n9zes@execpc.com
Jim Puglise,
A283, tri gear with both wings.
Just started construction,
CPM installed in canoe, main gear in.
2425 Via Veneto
Punta Gorda, FL 33950
jim@imsmiami.com
Dan Bish
A144 Mono
CM in, Tail planes & pitch done, gear on. Top not on
4061 E Bujia Primera, Tucson, AZ, USA, 85718
N914RB@earthlink.net
Marty Mason
A291 a monowheel, conventional wing XS
also MISSING TAILPLANE & WINGS
1615 Greenwood Drive
Norcross, GA 30093
770-448-6469
770-448-6470 fax
678-427-8826 cell
masonmarty@bellsouth.net
Danny Shepherd
541 tri gear
Gors-Isaf Cottage
St, Asaph Rd
Bodelwyddan
Denbighshire
North Wales
LL18 5UY
danny@gorsisaf.eclipse.co.uk
Stephan Cassel
#556, Mono
Wing attached to fuselage, Flaps and landing gear mounted. About to put
the stearn post and rudder on
Onsumv 39
2625 Faaberg
Norway
cassel@sensewave.com
John Eckel
A230, trigear
cockpit module installed, gear next,
eckel1@comcast.net
Ken Stribling
A-282 XS, Tri Gear
Tail plans complete (Building house first)
Missing cowling and attaching parts, Doors, Windscreens and small parts ???
1250 So M St
Lakeview, Or. 97630
Ken@striblingranch.com
Steven Leisch
A208 monowheel
glider wings 80% complete, fuselage ready (and waiting) for engine
Morgan Hill, CA, USA
flyer208@charter.net
JR (Bob) Gowing
UK Kit 327
flaps working
They are the bits I lack in planning for 912 S (?)
gowingjr@acr.net.au
Vaughn Teegarden
Axxx Mono
close to putting on the top and closing the wings
16326 Bethlehem Road
Bristol, VA 24202
VRTEEGARDEN@peoplepc.com
David Glauser
A071 XS mono
Build is on hold (remodeling house). Expect to need FWF in a year or so.
796 Biscayne Ave.
Camarillo, CA 93010 USA
david.glauser@xpsystems.com
Mike Gamble
#440 Mono XS.
nearly ready for FWF
mp.gamble@virgin.net
Dan Geldermann
A-139, N918DJ (N# reserved)
XS Mono-wheel
912S planned engine
2,020 hours build time to date
3304 Thorngate Dr.
Herndon, VA 20171
djgeldermann@cox.net
Tony Renshaw
Classic Taildragger, module in and working on boat
Jabiru is becoming a more tempting option for fwf.
Sydney Australia
tonyrenshaw@optusnet.com
Jeff Behrnes
A055, TriGear
Filling and sanding, only hooking up flaps,
installing gauges and wiring and nose gear to go on airframe.
Need that FWF kit, preferably a 912S.
11220 Hooper Rd, Baton Rouge, LA 70818, USA
topglock@cox.net
Don Pettey
A188, mono
wings closed up and cockpit module
ready to bond in
806 S. Myers
Oceanside, CA 92054
don-glasstile@cox.net
Dean Wiegand
A259, mono-wheel
starting building in earnest any time now
1901 Madison Ave #110-126
Mankato MN 56001
dwiegand@surewest.net
Doug Lawton
A244 Mono Motor Glider
glider wings completed, starting on the short wings
cockpit module in
139 Quitman Lane
Clarkesville, GA 30523
skyrider2@earthlink.net
Peter Robson writes:
Here at the ends of the earth I have a classic Europa cowl which I
would gladly give to anyone who has "lost" one in the recent shinanigins in
North Yorkshire. It's in pristine condition. The recipient would hve to pay
the transport costs. ( Tony K seems to tour the earth pretty frequently.
Perhaps he could be persuaded to take it in his hand baggage)(!) Take note
the classic is 2'' shorter than the XS. robsonpr@clear.net.nz
Tony Krzyzewski writes:
Actually you can make that two spare sets located here in NZ as I have a
set sitting in my hangar as well. [and no, I won't carry them as baggage
sorry :) ]
Tony
<tonyk@kaon.co.nz>
Vaughn Teegarden writes:
I e'mailed John Wheeler and he felt that they would be shipping FFK's
with-in a month or two. He also stated thet it was Europa 2004's intention
to take care of the U.S. market. I am taking their word on that.
This list (which is probably incomplete) was compiled from responses to the
following email posted on the Europa forum @ europa-list@matronics.com on
9/25/04:
> All,
>
> I would like to compile a list of those builders who lack the Europa
> firewall forward kit. Accordingly, if you would like to appear on such a
> list, kindly email me (off-list) your:
>
> - Name:
> - Kit number noting mono, tri-gear, or conventional:
> - Building status:
> - Address:
>
> I will post the list on this forum in say two weeks.
>
> Fred
> A194
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru 3300 Engine option |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "MICHAEL PARKIN" <mikenjulie.parkin@btopenworld.com>
Hi Jos,
Wasn't meaning to be aggressive , just direct! They always say that you can
take the man out of Yorkshire but you cannot take the Yorkshire out of the
man.
However, I do know that in the past, that several Europa builders and owners
have been castigated both on and off the list for advertising their
products/modifications to other builders. I therefore consider it dual
standards to encourage a component representative to advertise his wares on
this europa owner/operator/builders page. It actually sets a precedent.
What is to stop all the propeller, engine or avionics people bombarding us
with 'junk' mail.
On the subject of engine choice for you and the others still deciding, I
would have thought that you would have been interested in the experience of
those who have trod the path before.
The fact is that there have been cooling problems on 2 Jabiru 3300
installations to my knowledge. Furthermore, propeller resonant frequencies
have also caused problems. Of course these problems are solved if one uses
the 2 bladed wooden sensenich props - of course, at the same time, the
"whisper quiet" part of the Europa sales pitch goes away too.
Some years ago, whilst going through a similar thought process, I did
consider seriously going the Jabiru 3300 route. It is a nice looking piece
of engineering - and as evidenced by Bob Harrison's G-PTAG, it sounds really
great on the ground. The question to ask Bob, is if he could go back a few
years, would he choose the same route!
At about that time, Ivan Shaw asked me what engine I was planning to
install. I explained that I had several options and hadn't really decided.
His advice was quite straightforward. He said, "get a rotax, the aeroplane
was built around it and the combination works great". I took his advice and
have never regretted it.
As you say, it is quite true, the rotax fwf kit is expensive - but you get
what you pay for in my experience.
Much of this is historic and since then there have been some interesting
engine developments, particularly from the US. The problem for UK builders
is that it is a major task to install an engine that is not sponsored by the
Company. I shudder to think how many years one could waste trying to get
approval for such an installation from the PFA. Of course in some countries
you are not shackled in such a way.
kind regards,
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jos Okhuijsen" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Jabiru 3300 Engine option
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jos Okhuijsen" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> Why the agressiveness? I am happy you are happy with your Rotax 914.
> For me and many others, we have still to decide which way to go.
> So the development of a Jabiru fwf is interesting, if only from a
> competition point of view. After all, the price of the Rotax fwf's is
> rather high! Let's have a good look at alternatives. What's the situation
> on the diesel front btw?
>
> Jos Okhuijsen #600
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru Support for Europa -- was: Firewall Forward-less |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
Actually not.
Either way one was burning 60+% more than the other. That's a big ball park
you're in!
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Silvester" <info@suncoastjabiru.com>
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Jabiru Support for Europa -- was: Firewall
Forward-less
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Andy Silvester"
<info@suncoastjabiru.com>
>
> Thanks, Duncan. I'm assuming you're referring to UK gallons, so converting
> to US gallons, and taking my initial 22% improvement in consumption with
the
> new needle-and-jet setup, this means the Jabiru would be burning 3.1 UK
GPH
> based on your numbers. In the ball-park with Rotax, I'd say!
>
> Cheers
>
> Andy
>
> Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc.
> www.suncoastjabiru.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Duncan
> McFadyean
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Jabiru Support for Europa -- was: Firewall
> Forward-less
>
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean"
> <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
>
> Factoid:
> A 3300 Jabiru-Europa flown over a long distance in loose formation with a
> 912s-Europa last year returned close to 4 gph. The Rotax burned 2.5gph.
>
> Duncan McF.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Andy Silvester" <info@suncoastjabiru.com>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Jabiru Support for Europa -- was: Firewall
> Forward-less
>
>
> > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Andy Silvester"
> <info@suncoastjabiru.com>
> >
> > Dale,
> >
> > I'm flying up to Evergreen, AL for this weekend's EAA Southeast Regional
> > Fly-In (SERFI); about 4 hrs each way, so I should have a good picture of
> the
> > fuel burn and performance when I get back. I'll post something suitable
> next
> > week.
> >
> > Andy
> >
> > Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc.
> > www.suncoastjabiru.com
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dale G.
> HetriG
> > Hetrick
> > To: europa-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Jabiru Support for Europa -- was: Firewall
> > Forward-less
> >
> > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Dale G. HetriG Hetrick"
> > <gdale2@juno.com>
> >
> > Andy,
> > When will you be announcing the results of your Carb "needle" tests?
The
> > preliminary results are very interesting!
> > Dale Hetrick
> > (A Jabiru engine user who is very happy with the 3300 engine)
> >
> >
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru 3300 Engine option |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
<<...and as evidenced by Bob Harrison's G-PTAG, it sounds really
great on the ground. ...>>
Sounds great in the air too. But has a small diameter prop to achieve this.
Duncan McF.
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "MICHAEL PARKIN" <mikenjulie.parkin@btopenworld.com>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Jabiru 3300 Engine option
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "MICHAEL PARKIN"
<mikenjulie.parkin@btopenworld.com>
>
> Hi Jos,
>
> Wasn't meaning to be aggressive , just direct! They always say that you
can
> take the man out of Yorkshire but you cannot take the Yorkshire out of the
> man.
> However, I do know that in the past, that several Europa builders and
owners
> have been castigated both on and off the list for advertising their
> products/modifications to other builders. I therefore consider it dual
> standards to encourage a component representative to advertise his wares
on
> this europa owner/operator/builders page. It actually sets a precedent.
> What is to stop all the propeller, engine or avionics people bombarding us
> with 'junk' mail.
> On the subject of engine choice for you and the others still deciding, I
> would have thought that you would have been interested in the experience
of
> those who have trod the path before.
> The fact is that there have been cooling problems on 2 Jabiru 3300
> installations to my knowledge. Furthermore, propeller resonant
frequencies
> have also caused problems. Of course these problems are solved if one
uses
> the 2 bladed wooden sensenich props - of course, at the same time, the
> "whisper quiet" part of the Europa sales pitch goes away too.
> Some years ago, whilst going through a similar thought process, I did
> consider seriously going the Jabiru 3300 route. It is a nice looking
piece
> of engineering - and as evidenced by Bob Harrison's G-PTAG, it sounds
really
> great on the ground. The question to ask Bob, is if he could go back a
few
> years, would he choose the same route!
> At about that time, Ivan Shaw asked me what engine I was planning to
> install. I explained that I had several options and hadn't really
decided.
> His advice was quite straightforward. He said, "get a rotax, the
aeroplane
> was built around it and the combination works great". I took his advice
and
> have never regretted it.
> As you say, it is quite true, the rotax fwf kit is expensive - but you get
> what you pay for in my experience.
>
> Much of this is historic and since then there have been some interesting
> engine developments, particularly from the US. The problem for UK
builders
> is that it is a major task to install an engine that is not sponsored by
the
> Company. I shudder to think how many years one could waste trying to get
> approval for such an installation from the PFA. Of course in some
countries
> you are not shackled in such a way.
>
> kind regards,
>
> Mike
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jos Okhuijsen" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Jabiru 3300 Engine option
>
>
> > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jos Okhuijsen" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>
> >
> > Hi Mike,
> >
> > Why the agressiveness? I am happy you are happy with your Rotax 914.
> > For me and many others, we have still to decide which way to go.
> > So the development of a Jabiru fwf is interesting, if only from a
> > competition point of view. After all, the price of the Rotax fwf's is
> > rather high! Let's have a good look at alternatives. What's the
situation
> > on the diesel front btw?
> >
> > Jos Okhuijsen #600
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Jabiru Engine Questions (round 2 of 2) |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Bruce" <bruce@justbruce.com>
Jabiru Questions (round 2 of 2)
Andy (of Suncoast Jabiru)
-----Thank you for your response to my previous questions.
Europa-list members
----- 1. Thank you for your postings to the europa-list in
response to my Jabiru 3300 questions. I appreciate the
shared dialogue and hearing of your experiences and
opinions.
----- 2. Thank you also for the more than twenty private
e-mails that were sent to me and not to this list. Some of
those e-mails informed me of their own Jabiru 3300
installations, or of Europa/Jabiru installations that they
were aware of. Other e-mails thanked me for bringing up the
topic of alternative powerplants. A few e-mails suggested
additional questions for Andy and Jabiru and I have tried to
include their questions below. Three of these private
e-mails were extremely critical of me posting my first set
of Jabiru questions and suggested that powerplant
discussions should be held on another forum. The writers of
those three personal e-mails are in addition to those
list-members who have publicly posted on the europa-list
their dislike for a vendor supplying information to the
list. I believe information that helps us make the most
important decision we face in the construction of our
Europas is worthy of inclusion in this list regardless of
the source so long as it is based on real-life experiences
that can be confirmed. If Andy starts to annoy us with
special offers or other blatant messages of a commercial
nature, then we can ask him to be quiet and return to his
lurking mode.
My Jabiru 3300 questions for today:
1. Reliability: By popular demand, we would like to hear
your comments about reliability. What statistics have
Jabiru gathered? I'm sure others on the list will respond
with their own experiences and observations. This issue is
of utmost concern for all of us evaluating powerplants, and
perhaps the most difficult thing for you to prove to us.
2. Cowling / appearance: I've searched various Jabiru
factory and dealer websites and have been unable to locate
any Europa cowling photos other than Bob Harrison's one-off
(?) solution. I understand from your recent e-mail comments
that there are two commercially available cowlings -- the
one from the Jabiru factory and another one that you
(Suncoast Jabiru) have produced.
3. Installation: Do you have any photos of a recent
vintage Jab 3300, installed in a Europa XS. (The only
images that are easy to find are Bob Harrison's Classic
Europa utilizing a custom cowling (?) and a custom (?)
engine mount? I'd appreciate seeing a series of photos
taken at different stages of the installation showing
pre-install preparation (fuel line and power feeds etc.),
engine mount only installed, then photos with engine
mounted, then with air baffles mounted and modified as
necessary, then with bottom cowl, and finally with the top
cowl all closed up and ready to go.
4. Serviceability and access: I recall Bob Harrison
commenting somewhere that it was challenging to access the
carburetor and perhaps other components in his Europa
Classic. I think he also speculated that access in a Europa
XS would be even tighter due to the XS's extended foot
wells. (Sorry Bob H. if you are not the one who posted this
observation). I would appreciate hearing comments from Andy
or Jabiru users regarding this concern. I also would like
to see photos that illustrate this issue if it really is a
problem and what you do as a "work-around".
5. Electrical generating capability: From the archives of
the Europa List and the Jabiru List, I have found that many
builders believe that perhaps neither Jabiru nor Rotaxes
have alternators sufficient to power all the strobes, nav
lights, wig-wag recognition lights, avionics, and other toys
that we would like to run. Obviously most Europa's are
flown with the standard Rotax or Jabiru alternators, but is
it feasible to stack a pair of the Jab alternators on the
rear of the 3300 like I believe they do on the Jab 5100 and
does the Europa installation leave you enough room to do so?
Would there be adequate room to mount one of B&C's vacuum
pump alternators on the Jabiru vacuum pad, (and does it
work). Are there belt-driven alternators that can be
sourced and do they fit under the cowl?
6. Prop flange design and prop weight: A Europa-List
member has provided very extensive documentation of the
challenges he faced and the modifications he had to make in
order to utilize his chosen constant speed prop with an
early Jabiru 3300. What is Jabiru's current position on
this matter and have modifications, changes to
specifications or other provisions been made in recent years
that address this issue.
7. Lastly, inquiring minds are anxious for the
fuel-consumption update that you mentioned in an earlier
post. We need adequate and realistic fuel performance
details. Fuel usage in a Europa is a huge issue due to the
small tank size. Fuel capacity is only 18 U.S. gallons but
early Europa marketing materials diffused this issue by
discussing Kim Prout's 2.1 GPH economy-cruise experiences in
his 80 HP 912, and Dennis Vorheee's 200 MPH experiences with
his 914. A review of some of a list-member's postings
indicate Jabiru powered Europas will, based on his
experiences, only have a couple of hours of flight time. I
have saved emails from him reporting 7.08 (converted to U.S.
gallons) GPH at 125K and 6.12G GPH at economy cruise (110K).
(I believe his e-mails stated consumption in Imperial
gallons which I hope I have accurately converted to U.S.
gallons.) At his higher consumption rate, that works out to
only 2 hours and 34 minutes from which you have to subtract
a 30 to 45 minute reserve.
Thanks again for everyone's comments,
Bruce L
XS 142
Tracy, California
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru Engine Questions (round 2 of 2) |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Frank Wood <fswood@shaw.ca>
Hi Bruce,The Europa that Andy is working on is mine.He is at present
completing the instalation of a Grand Rapids EIS system .Within the next
week or so, Florida storms permitting,we will be doing some test runs on the
Jabiru.The plane will then be shipped to Bob Berube at Flightcrafters to do
the actual test flying.To meet the vagarities and vulgarities of Transport
Canada,I am required to have 100hrs befor an imprt license will be
issued.The results during this 100hr period and from Andy,I am prepared to
publish on this forum however I can as of now comment that the co-operation
and interaction between myself and both parties has been excellent.I might
also add that my Europa is using a fixed pitch Prince airscrew that is an
interesting combination.Andy has some excellnt web photos that you may be
interested in viewing if you contact him and you have my permission to
request them.I am open to any comments and suggestions that may be offered.
Frank S Wood.Pincher Creek Alberta fswood@shaw.ca
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce" <bruce@justbruce.com>
Subject: Europa-List: Jabiru Engine Questions (round 2 of 2)
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Bruce" <bruce@justbruce.com>
>
> Jabiru Questions (round 2 of 2)
>
>
> Andy (of Suncoast Jabiru)
> -----Thank you for your response to my previous questions.
>
> Europa-list members
> ----- 1. Thank you for your postings to the europa-list in
> response to my Jabiru 3300 questions. I appreciate the
> shared dialogue and hearing of your experiences and
> opinions.
> ----- 2. Thank you also for the more than twenty private
> e-mails that were sent to me and not to this list. Some of
> those e-mails informed me of their own Jabiru 3300
> installations, or of Europa/Jabiru installations that they
> were aware of. Other e-mails thanked me for bringing up the
> topic of alternative powerplants. A few e-mails suggested
> additional questions for Andy and Jabiru and I have tried to
> include their questions below. Three of these private
> e-mails were extremely critical of me posting my first set
> of Jabiru questions and suggested that powerplant
> discussions should be held on another forum. The writers of
> those three personal e-mails are in addition to those
> list-members who have publicly posted on the europa-list
> their dislike for a vendor supplying information to the
> list. I believe information that helps us make the most
> important decision we face in the construction of our
> Europas is worthy of inclusion in this list regardless of
> the source so long as it is based on real-life experiences
> that can be confirmed. If Andy starts to annoy us with
> special offers or other blatant messages of a commercial
> nature, then we can ask him to be quiet and return to his
> lurking mode.
>
> My Jabiru 3300 questions for today:
>
> 1. Reliability: By popular demand, we would like to hear
> your comments about reliability. What statistics have
> Jabiru gathered? I'm sure others on the list will respond
> with their own experiences and observations. This issue is
> of utmost concern for all of us evaluating powerplants, and
> perhaps the most difficult thing for you to prove to us.
>
> 2. Cowling / appearance: I've searched various Jabiru
> factory and dealer websites and have been unable to locate
> any Europa cowling photos other than Bob Harrison's one-off
> (?) solution. I understand from your recent e-mail comments
> that there are two commercially available cowlings -- the
> one from the Jabiru factory and another one that you
> (Suncoast Jabiru) have produced.
>
> 3. Installation: Do you have any photos of a recent
> vintage Jab 3300, installed in a Europa XS. (The only
> images that are easy to find are Bob Harrison's Classic
> Europa utilizing a custom cowling (?) and a custom (?)
> engine mount? I'd appreciate seeing a series of photos
> taken at different stages of the installation showing
> pre-install preparation (fuel line and power feeds etc.),
> engine mount only installed, then photos with engine
> mounted, then with air baffles mounted and modified as
> necessary, then with bottom cowl, and finally with the top
> cowl all closed up and ready to go.
>
> 4. Serviceability and access: I recall Bob Harrison
> commenting somewhere that it was challenging to access the
> carburetor and perhaps other components in his Europa
> Classic. I think he also speculated that access in a Europa
> XS would be even tighter due to the XS's extended foot
> wells. (Sorry Bob H. if you are not the one who posted this
> observation). I would appreciate hearing comments from Andy
> or Jabiru users regarding this concern. I also would like
> to see photos that illustrate this issue if it really is a
> problem and what you do as a "work-around".
>
> 5. Electrical generating capability: From the archives of
> the Europa List and the Jabiru List, I have found that many
> builders believe that perhaps neither Jabiru nor Rotaxes
> have alternators sufficient to power all the strobes, nav
> lights, wig-wag recognition lights, avionics, and other toys
> that we would like to run. Obviously most Europa's are
> flown with the standard Rotax or Jabiru alternators, but is
> it feasible to stack a pair of the Jab alternators on the
> rear of the 3300 like I believe they do on the Jab 5100 and
> does the Europa installation leave you enough room to do so?
> Would there be adequate room to mount one of B&C's vacuum
> pump alternators on the Jabiru vacuum pad, (and does it
> work). Are there belt-driven alternators that can be
> sourced and do they fit under the cowl?
>
> 6. Prop flange design and prop weight: A Europa-List
> member has provided very extensive documentation of the
> challenges he faced and the modifications he had to make in
> order to utilize his chosen constant speed prop with an
> early Jabiru 3300. What is Jabiru's current position on
> this matter and have modifications, changes to
> specifications or other provisions been made in recent years
> that address this issue.
>
> 7. Lastly, inquiring minds are anxious for the
> fuel-consumption update that you mentioned in an earlier
> post. We need adequate and realistic fuel performance
> details. Fuel usage in a Europa is a huge issue due to the
> small tank size. Fuel capacity is only 18 U.S. gallons but
> early Europa marketing materials diffused this issue by
> discussing Kim Prout's 2.1 GPH economy-cruise experiences in
> his 80 HP 912, and Dennis Vorheee's 200 MPH experiences with
> his 914. A review of some of a list-member's postings
> indicate Jabiru powered Europas will, based on his
> experiences, only have a couple of hours of flight time. I
> have saved emails from him reporting 7.08 (converted to U.S.
> gallons) GPH at 125K and 6.12G GPH at economy cruise (110K).
> (I believe his e-mails stated consumption in Imperial
> gallons which I hope I have accurately converted to U.S.
> gallons.) At his higher consumption rate, that works out to
> only 2 hours and 34 minutes from which you have to subtract
> a 30 to 45 minute reserve.
>
>
> Thanks again for everyone's comments,
>
> Bruce L
> XS 142
> Tracy, California
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru Engine Questions (round 2 of 2) |
--> Europa-List message posted by: DuaneFamly@aol.com
Good morning to all,
I want to thank Bruce for starting and progressing this thread. I believe
that this is called a Forum...a Europa Forum. Since we are all building Europas,
this is the "ideal" place to have a supplier provide us with information "that
we have asked him for". He can give us the sales talk and those that have a
different experience or input can air this for him to deal with in a public
forum. I think this can provide us with real world information instead of just
sales talk.
Now the powerplant for this build is a major portion and one that many of us
are about to undertake. While the Rotax is a quite, well built powerplant with
a good reputation, I think that raising questions about "alternatives" is not
heresy. Let's use this forum for it's intended purpose.
So Bruce, and anyone else with questions and concerns, keep them coming.
Mike Duane
XS A207 Conventional Gear
Redding, California
Needing a FWF kit in the near future.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly Posting] |
DNA: do not archive
--> Europa-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Dear Lister,
Please read over the Europa-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
Europa-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Europa-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Europa-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Europa-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Europa-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Europa-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Europa-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
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- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
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- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
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- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
-------
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