Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:19 AM - Re: Friday 5th November DOTH? Fly-in (Runnymede73@aol.com)
2. 03:22 AM - Re: Sunday 7th November DOTH Peterborough (bryan allsop)
3. 04:18 AM - Re: Sunday 7th November DOTH Peterborough (Duncan McFadyean)
4. 05:28 AM - Is Complex rating needed for a mono with long wings? (Ronald J. Parigoris)
5. 06:02 AM - Re: Is Complex rating needed for a mono with long wings? (Kevin Klinefelter)
6. 07:00 AM - Re: Is Complex rating needed for a mono with long wings? (Paul McAllister)
7. 12:52 PM - What engine for my Europa? (Richard Sementilli)
8. 02:12 PM - Re: What engine for my Europa? (Gilles Thesee)
9. 03:06 PM - Organising, and Avoiding Liability (bryan allsop)
10. 03:10 PM - Re: What engine for my Europa? (Richard Holder)
11. 04:28 PM - Re: What engine for my Europa? (Andy Silvester)
12. 10:40 PM - Re: What engine for my Europa? (Tony Krzyzewski)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Friday 5th November DOTH? Fly-in |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Runnymede73@aol.com
went to le touquet on Friday - weather state 'Blue'
brilliant day - no Europas in sight.
Runnymede73
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Sunday 7th November DOTH Peterborough |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "bryan allsop" <info@blackballclub.fsnet.co.uk>
Wish I could show you my new prop William. Having waited eight days for a
response for my permit to test, I phoned the PFA two days ago to jolly
things up. Today (Saturday), I finally received a response from Francis
Donaldson giving me permission to carry out some very specific tests,
conditional to me moving the CG back to a point where it would be impossible
for to go OOB forwards, even under the most extreme circumstances.
So there! Keep the DOTH's up until I can join you again.
Enviously yours. Bryan Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "William Mills" <combined.merchants@virgin.net>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Sunday 7th November DOTH Peterborough
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "William Mills"
<combined.merchants@virgin.net>
>
> Agreed. Lets say approx. 12 noon on Sunday at Peterborough Conington
(free
> landing in "Pilot")
> Perhaps Bryan will be able to show us his new prop.
> Regards,
> William
> Do not archive
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Friday 5th November DOTH? Fly-in
>
>
> > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean"
> <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
> >
> > Wx for Saturday looks a bit miserable; Sunday would be better.
> >
> > Duncan McF
> > do not archive
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "William Mills" <combined.merchants@virgin.net>
> > To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Friday 5th November DOTH?
> >
> >
> > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "William Mills"
> > <combined.merchants@virgin.net>
> > >
> > > How about Peterborough Conington? The grub is ok and it is fairly
> central
> > > for most. We could do that on Saturday (tomorrow) unless anyone else
> has
> > > any better suggestions.
> > > Regards,
> > > William
> > > Do not archive
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
> > > To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> > > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Friday 5th November DOTH?
> > >
> > >
> > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean"
> > > <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
> > > >
> > > > <<weekend DOTH, ......... so where shall we go?>>
> > > >
> > > > Was going to ask you that!
> > > >
> > > > Anyone got any ideas?
> > > >
> > > > Duncan McF
> > > > do not archive
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Sunday 7th November DOTH Peterborough |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
The PFA are about to make a change to the system that would allow Inspectors
to sign-off those props that have been approved for the particular
application.
Not soon enough for you though. Another reason for me to wait!
Duncan McF
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "bryan allsop" <info@blackballclub.fsnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Sunday 7th November DOTH Peterborough
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "bryan allsop"
<info@blackballclub.fsnet.co.uk>
>
> Wish I could show you my new prop William. Having waited eight days for a
> response for my permit to test, I phoned the PFA two days ago to jolly
> things up. Today (Saturday), I finally received a response from Francis
> Donaldson giving me permission to carry out some very specific tests,
> conditional to me moving the CG back to a point where it would be
impossible
> for to go OOB forwards, even under the most extreme circumstances.
> So there! Keep the DOTH's up until I can join you again.
>
> Enviously yours. Bryan Do not archive
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "William Mills" <combined.merchants@virgin.net>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Sunday 7th November DOTH Peterborough
>
>
> > --> Europa-List message posted by: "William Mills"
> <combined.merchants@virgin.net>
> >
> > Agreed. Lets say approx. 12 noon on Sunday at Peterborough Conington
> (free
> > landing in "Pilot")
> > Perhaps Bryan will be able to show us his new prop.
> > Regards,
> > William
> > Do not archive
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
> > To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Friday 5th November DOTH? Fly-in
> >
> >
> > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean"
> > <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
> > >
> > > Wx for Saturday looks a bit miserable; Sunday would be better.
> > >
> > > Duncan McF
> > > do not archive
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "William Mills" <combined.merchants@virgin.net>
> > > To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> > > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Friday 5th November DOTH?
> > >
> > >
> > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "William Mills"
> > > <combined.merchants@virgin.net>
> > > >
> > > > How about Peterborough Conington? The grub is ok and it is fairly
> > central
> > > > for most. We could do that on Saturday (tomorrow) unless anyone
else
> > has
> > > > any better suggestions.
> > > > Regards,
> > > > William
> > > > Do not archive
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
> > > > To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Friday 5th November DOTH?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean"
> > > > <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
> > > > >
> > > > > <<weekend DOTH, ......... so where shall we go?>>
> > > > >
> > > > > Was going to ask you that!
> > > > >
> > > > > Anyone got any ideas?
> > > > >
> > > > > Duncan McF
> > > > > do not archive
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Is Complex rating needed for a mono with long wings? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Ronald J. Parigoris" <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
To fly a monowheel with short wings, I don't think you need a complex rating since
the flaps are linked to the gear.
With the long wings, they do not have flaps, and the air brakes are not linked.
Does pilot need a complex rating?
Thx.
Ron Parigoris
Message 5
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| Subject: | Is Complex rating needed for a mono with long wings? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Kevin Klinefelter" <kevann@gte.net>
And a tailwheel endorsement?
Kevin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Ronald J.
Parigoris
Subject: Europa-List: Is Complex rating needed for a mono with long wings?
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Ronald J. Parigoris"
<rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
To fly a monowheel with short wings, I don't think you need a complex
rating since
the flaps are linked to the gear.
With the long wings, they do not have flaps, and the air brakes are not
linked.
Does pilot need a complex rating?
Thx.
Ron Parigoris
---
---
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Is Complex rating needed for a mono with long wings? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister@qia.net>
Hi Guys,
Actually this is interesting. If you take a look at FAR 61.31K(ii) part iv
you will find that you don't need things like tail wheel or complex ratings.
What will probably force you to get training & ratings is the insurance
companies.
Paul
> To fly a monowheel with short wings, I don't think you need a complex
rating since
> the flaps are linked to the gear.
>
> With the long wings, they do not have flaps, and the air brakes are not
linked.
>
> Does pilot need a complex rating?
>
> Thx.
> Ron Parigoris
Message 7
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Sat, 06 Nov 2004 12:50:56 -0800 (PST)
| Subject: | What engine for my Europa? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Sementilli <rsementi@gmail.com>
I am down to 3 choices for an engine for my Europa.
1. Rotax 912S
2. Rotax 914
3. Jabiru 3300
I would like to get objective opinions and actual experiences from
anyone about the pro's and cons of each engine.
My first choice is the 914 because of the all around performance but
more than the huge price, I am worried about the complexity of the
engine as it relates to maintenance and overall reliability. I have
spoken to a few mechanics for Rotax but none of them have any
experience with the 914 turbo. They all say to keep it simple and go
with the 912 or the 3300. I agree but I'm willing to stretch that goal
if feel that I could handle the burden of its complexity.
My most probable choice would be the 912S because it seems I can get
great performance (the same or better than the Jabiru 3300) with
relative ease of operation and mainenance, lighter weight, and
comparable price to the Jabiru. I've even found a mechanic that is
near (2 hours away) to my location. However, to the best of my
research, it is still a more complicated engine and drive unit than
the simple low reving Jabiru. It needs pump gas almost always, which
may not be easy to come by during cross country flights.
The Jabiru is the least expensive, most simple design, seems easier to
maintain, and is direct drive. However, it's less proven, heavier and
I can't find any repair facilities in the NY tristate area.
Am I missing any other engine possibilities that could be even a better choice?
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: What engine for my Europa? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Gilles Thesee" <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Richard,
I'm completing a Rotax 914 airplane. We've just started the engine for the
first time last week end. We expect the first flight within the next few
weeks.
The airplane is not a Europa but an MCR 4S four seater.
We have about 200 MCRs flying here in France. They are powered by Rotax 912,
912S and 914 and as far as I know, there are three airplanes with Jabiru
2200, and one with a 3300.
- The common opinion among builders is that the Rotax are VERY reliable and
trouble free, despite a relatively complicated setup. To date I've not heard
about a single reduction gear unit failure, even in the ultralight circles.
- The Rotax are VERY tolerant to thermal abuse.
- The Rotax engines do accept Avgas, but of course need more frequent
maintenance because of the high lead content. We performed our first run up
with Avgas.
- If I had to do it again I would elect the 912S, as the 914 is electrically
dependant and necessitates a particularly well thought electric circuit.
The Jabiru 3300 is an interesting choice but it has some drawbacks :
- To date only a handful of airplanes are flying with this engine. The
flight experience is still building up.
- The direct drive is the main weakness of the Jabirus : the RPM is high and
it is very difficult to design a propeller that is at the same time
efficient AND quiet. To date I've heard of no successful prop. Those that
are quiet are not very efficient, and the few efficient models are overly
noisy due to high tip speed.
- Jabiru doesn't approve constant speed props. The well proven MT models are
out of the question due to too high RPM.
- The performance of the Jabiru powered MCRs is slightly less impressive
than with a Rotax. This is attributed mainly to the smaller and faster
turning prop.
Hope this helps,
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
> I am down to 3 choices for an engine for my Europa.
> 1. Rotax 912S
> 2. Rotax 914
> 3. Jabiru 3300
>
> I would like to get objective opinions and actual experiences from
> anyone about the pro's and cons of each engine.
> My first choice is the 914 because of the all around performance but
> more than the huge price, I am worried about the complexity of the
> engine as it relates to maintenance and overall reliability. I have
> spoken to a few mechanics for Rotax but none of them have any
> experience with the 914 turbo. They all say to keep it simple and go
> with the 912 or the 3300. I agree but I'm willing to stretch that goal
> if feel that I could handle the burden of its complexity.
> My most probable choice would be the 912S because it seems I can get
> great performance (the same or better than the Jabiru 3300) with
> relative ease of operation and mainenance, lighter weight, and
> comparable price to the Jabiru. I've even found a mechanic that is
> near (2 hours away) to my location. However, to the best of my
> research, it is still a more complicated engine and drive unit than
> the simple low reving Jabiru. It needs pump gas almost always, which
> may not be easy to come by during cross country flights.
> The Jabiru is the least expensive, most simple design, seems easier to
> maintain, and is direct drive. However, it's less proven, heavier and
> I can't find any repair facilities in the NY tristate area.
> Am I missing any other engine possibilities that could be even a better
choice?
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Organising, and Avoiding Liability |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "bryan allsop" <info@blackballclub.fsnet.co.uk>
In my capacity as the Events Co-coordinator/Social Secretary for the Europa Club,
I am endeavouring to compile a calendar of fly-outs etc., for next year.
Whilst I never cease to be impressed at the enthusiasm of some members for organising
such events, I do have concerns about the possibility of things going wrong,
and chances of some opportunist relative litigating against the organiser,
or the club.
When I have arranged trips with several people, I have asked them to a-mail me
a disclaimer before joining, and they always seem happy to do it. But is this
enough? What should we be asking for in order to avoid the possibility of nightmarish
legal consequences? Should very member be asked to sign a disclaimer?
What about Passengers? Is it possible to phrase a disclaimer which would be appropriate
on both sides of the Atlantic, and elsewhere throughout the world?
Perhaps some of these things would be of more concern to the Americans, who are
reputed to suffer from ambulance chasers more than most, Where ever we are, I
feel that the problem should be given proper consideration before the event,
not after it. To this end I would value contributions from any legal brains amongst
us. It would be helpful if contributors were to identify which country
they are speaking from.
I would be grateful to have something to put some informed comment to the next
committee meeting in mid December. Any responses, either directly, or through
the forum will be appreciated. Please avoid 'legalspeak'.
Safe flying. Bryan Allsop Events Co-coordinator.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: What engine for my Europa? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder <rholder@avnet.co.uk>
> I am down to 3 choices for an engine for my Europa.
> 1. Rotax 912S
> 2. Rotax 914
> 3. Jabiru 3300
>
> I would like to get objective opinions and actual experiences from
> anyone about the pro's and cons of each engine.
> My first choice is the 914 because of the all around performance but
> more than the huge price, I am worried about the complexity of the
> engine as it relates to maintenance and overall reliability. I have
> spoken to a few mechanics for Rotax but none of them have any
> experience with the 914 turbo. They all say to keep it simple and go
> with the 912 or the 3300. I agree but I'm willing to stretch that goal
> if feel that I could handle the burden of its complexity.
> My most probable choice would be the 912S because it seems I can get
> great performance (the same or better than the Jabiru 3300) with
> relative ease of operation and mainenance, lighter weight, and
> comparable price to the Jabiru. I've even found a mechanic that is
> near (2 hours away) to my location. However, to the best of my
> research, it is still a more complicated engine and drive unit than
> the simple low reving Jabiru. It needs pump gas almost always, which
> may not be easy to come by during cross country flights.
> The Jabiru is the least expensive, most simple design, seems easier to
> maintain, and is direct drive. However, it's less proven, heavier and
> I can't find any repair facilities in the NY tristate area.
> Am I missing any other engine possibilities that could be even a better
> choice?
If you buy a 912S make SURE you buy the heavy duty starter.
Richard
Richard F.W. Holder 01279 842804 (POTS)
Bell House, Bell Lane, 01279 842942 (fax)
Widford, Ware, Herts, 07860 367423 (mobile)
SG12 8SH email : richard.holder@avnet.co.uk
++++++++ Please note new email address ++++++++
Europa Classic Tri-gear : G-OWWW, High Cross
PA-28-181 : Piper Archer : G-JANA, EGSG (Stapleford)
Message 11
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| Subject: | What engine for my Europa? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Andy Silvester" <info@suncoastjabiru.com>
Richard,
OK, you'd expect me to recommend the Jabiru......However, I want to set the
record straight on one or two misconceptions:
1. "Direct drive engines are inferior to gear-driven types". Accepting the
basic premise that a bigger propeller turning slower has greater static
thrust than a fast-turning small prop, for the Europa there is really no
disadvantage from a direct drive engine, from a propeller efficiency
viewpoint. I admit that for me, propeller science and design is best left to
the experts, and we have had a very good working relationship with Sensenich
wood propellers here in Florida, for a few years. Sensenich now supply a
large volume of props to Jabiru owners, for all speed ranges and aircraft
types and they have built - up very valuable experience and designed blade
shapes that really do work excellently with Jabirus. It's an unfortunate
fact that the Jabiru engine often gets rubbished because people put their
Rotax ground adjustable prop on it, change the pitch to get the right static
RPM and then complain that it isn't right (and therefore it must be the
engine). I am very clear to all my customers that propeller choice is very
important, and we now have a load of experience in what to recommend, and
use it to maximum effect.
2. Gilles said that "Jabiru doesn't approve constant speed props". True, but
then they don't specifically "approve" anyone's props other than their own!
Jabiru make propellers for their own aircraft and, again in my experience
it's rare to get great results with a Jabiru prop on another aircraft type,
which is why we work with Sensenich, and occasionally others. I have been
using an Airmaster AP332 CS propeller on our Jabiru J400 demonstrator for
about 2 years, and can report good results, so I need to dispel any myths
that the Airmaster isn't suitable for the Jabiru - it works just fine (no
pun intended).
I accept that there are many more Rotax engines powering Europas than
Jabirus, but the fact that there are fewer Jabirus doesn't mean they are not
a good choice! People tend to go with 'what works' and Europa Management in
UK made no secret of their desire to stay with Rotax for (among others)
commercial reasons. Rotax will give their dealers a bigger margin than we
can; it's a decision we took to keep retail prices competitive. Despite all
this, within the last year / 18 months I have been approached by individual
Europa builders as well as John Hurst, Flightcrafters and Keith Wilson (no
less) to develop our own installation package for the Jabiru 3300 and we're
almost there with it. I won't pre-sell our new cowling until I'm happy with
performance, but very soon we will have this information. I should also make
it clear that Jabiru have offered a Europa Installation package for a few
years and it looks good and performs well. Our own package will differ in
the cowling shape, spinner and modified ram-air cooling ducts only; we have
a different shape to the Jabiru cowl but there's nothing wrong with the
Jabiru offering - many are using it and happy with the results and look. I
know Individual builders like yourself are questioning the relative monopoly
of Rotax, the engine's complexity by comparison and other performance
factors. I remain confident that we will see many more individuals using
Jabiru engines in Europas, mainly because of our growing reputation for
honest service and a reliable no-nonsense product which is easy to operate
and maintain. The Jabiru's 2000-hour TBO at a current overhaul cost of
around $6,000 parts and labor is hard to beat.
I'll be happy to answer more questions.
Andy Silvester
Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc.
www.suncoastjabiru.com
Message 12
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| Subject: | What engine for my Europa? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Tony Krzyzewski" <tonyk@kaon.co.nz>
>>I am down to 3 choices for an engine for my Europa.
>>1. Rotax 912S
>>2. Rotax 914
>>3. Jabiru 3300
Despite the fact that I'm putting a 914 in mine my suggestion would be to use 912S
with a constant speed prop. I've now flow several Europa's and, in my opinion,
the combination of 912S and CS prop combines performance, simplicity, and
price to be the best match for the aircraft for most owners.
Tony
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