Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:22 AM - List Fund Raiser - What Listers Are Saying... (Matt Dralle)
2. 03:03 AM - Re: Insurance for aeroplane parts (Raimo Toivio)
3. 05:22 AM - Re: Insurance for aeroplane parts (Gerry Holland)
4. 06:01 AM - Re: Insurance for aeroplane parts (Jim Puglise)
5. 09:46 AM - Re: Where to get a 914 Intercooler? (Shaun Simpkins)
6. 09:46 AM - Re: What engine for my Europa? (Shaun Simpkins)
7. 09:53 AM - Re: What engine for my Europa? (Terry Seaver)
8. 10:28 AM - Re:Brake Oil Seals (Alan Burrows)
9. 10:36 AM - Re: Re: What engine for my Europa? (Gilles Thesee)
10. 10:43 AM - Re: What engine for my Europa? (Richard Sementilli)
11. 11:14 AM - New Spar Pip-pn (Raimo Toivio)
12. 12:08 PM - Re: New Spar Pip-pn (Duncan McFadyean)
13. 12:08 PM - Re: What engine for my Europa? (Duncan McFadyean)
14. 01:41 PM - 912S - cylinder cowl??? (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen)
15. 01:57 PM - Help - I need a ferry pilot in the UK (Peter Rees)
16. 02:23 PM - Re: 912S - cylinder cowl??? (Gilles Thesee)
17. 02:26 PM - Long wings and ratings (Dave Anderson)
18. 03:52 PM - Re: 912S - cylinder cowl??? (JEFF ROBERTS)
19. 05:46 PM - Re: Long wings and ratings (Kevin Klinefelter)
20. 06:27 PM - Re: What engine for my Europa? (KARL HEINDL)
21. 10:42 PM - my first flight (Paul Boulet)
22. 10:43 PM - SV: 912S - cylinder cowl??? (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen)
Message 1
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| Subject: | List Fund Raiser - What Listers Are Saying... |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Dear Listers,
First, I'd like say *thank you* to everyone that has already made a
Contribution to this year's List Fund Raiser! Thank you! If you haven't
made your Contribution, won't you show your support for these valuable
services today? Since there's no advertising or other forms of direct
commercialism on the forums to support the Lists, its solely YOUR
GENEROSITY that keeps them running!!
Members have been including some very nice comments along with their
Contributions this year. Please take a minute to read over some of the
thoughts your fellow Listers have expressed regarding the Lists and what
they mean to them. What do the Lists mean to you...?
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Admin
The amount of information and simple entertainment I derive from the lists
you administer is enormous.
-Chris R.
The [List] digest is the one message in my inbox that I look forward to
reading every day.
-Brian U.
[The Lists] are a major asset for the homebuilder.
-Gary K.
I use, and enjoy the List all the time. It is a fantastic tool.
-Patrick M.
[The List] has already paid for itself by answering two questions that I
had concerning construction of my [Homebuilt].
-Mike L.
[The List] has provided me with very useful information and helpful
building tips.
-Michael E.
Thanks for keeping this text-only and commercial free for all us dial-up
users! Your Lists are the best...
-Mark P.
Great service, I have learned many valuable lessons from others on the
[List]...
-Malcolm T.
...great List service [for] the many and varied within the aviation community.
-David P.
...great service.
-Terry B.
...enjoy monitoring the lists.
-Ed A.
...I do enjoy the Matrix (List).
-Galen H.
Thanks for a great listserve!
-Gary S.
...GREAT lists...!
-Ray M.
It is a great service.
-Robert K.
Invaluable!
-Larry M.
[The Lists are] the backbone (along with a UK list for Europa) of my
building program.
-Fergus K.
Thanks for supporting aviation in this way.
-Reade G.
...wonderful source of info!
-Lynn M.
[The] List has certainly helped me along the way.
-Kevin S.
...excellent list.
-Ed A.
I enjoy the [the] List, and find it useful.
-John G.
An indispensable part of my day every day!
-Owen B.
A great source of help, encouragement and "partners in crime"!
-Richard T.
Great List.
-Ed K.
Couldn't have [finished my project] without your site and the help of the
guys on the List.
-Larry M.
...great service!
-Walt S.
I enjoy the [the] List everyday.
-John B.
Thank you for keeping everyone in line :) Its a great list to stay
subscribed to.
-Janet D.
...the most important resource I have to support my hobby.
-Jeff D.
Thank you for all the great features.
-Brian U.
Very valuable resource.
-Thomas S.
...great service.
-William C.
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
do not archive
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Insurance for aeroplane parts |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi>
Yes of course!
I have an insurance to cover fire,
theft and all kind of accidents.
The insurance covers only parts
+ work shop + tools and it
does not cover manhours
(too valuable to cover!).
The worth of my insurance
is so far about 100 000 euros
= 120 000 USA dollars
= 70 000 english pounds.
I pay about 0,5 % a year.
If the worst happens,
a good insurance is some
kind of skinny consolation.
Buy an insurance and you never
need it, they say. I hope it works.
Regards,
Raimo M W Toivio
OH-XRT #417
OH-CVK
OH-BLL
37500 Lempaala
Finland
tel + 358 3 3753 777
fax + 358 3 3753 100
gsm + 358 40 590 1450
raimo.toivio@rwm.fi
www.rwm.fi
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ronald J. Parigoris" <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Subject: Europa-List: Insurance for aeroplane parts
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Ronald J. Parigoris" <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
>
> Any recommendations for insurance on Europa aeroplane parts sitting in a
> hangar well
> before ready to fly?
>
> Thx.
> Sincerely
> Ron Parigoris
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Insurance for aeroplane parts |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Gerry Holland <gnholland@onetel.com>
I have Insurance whilst building.
40,000 Cover whilst in Workshop and it also covers Hull and damage in
transit on a Trailer.
Price: 260.00 per annum
Regards
Gerry
Europa 384 G-FIZY
Trigear with Rotax 912 and Arplast CS Prop.
Dynon EFIS, KMD 150, Icom A-200 and SL70 Transponder.
PSS AoA Fitted.
http://www.g-fizy.com
Mobile: +44 7808 402404
WebFax: +44 870 7059985
gnholland@onetel.com
Message 4
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| Subject: | Insurance for aeroplane parts |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Jim Puglise" <jimpuglise@comcast.net>
Ron-
I am using the regular EAA insurance through Falcon. You can bind it on a
phone call, cost is 1% of the insured value. I was concerned because of the
number of hurricanes in FL this year. I've never had a claim under it so
can't address exactly how good it is.
Jim, A283
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ronald J.
Parigoris
Subject: Europa-List: Insurance for aeroplane parts
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Ronald J. Parigoris"
<rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Any recommendations for insurance on Europa aeroplane parts sitting in a
hangar well
before ready to fly?
Thx.
Sincerely
Ron Parigoris
Message 5
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| Subject: | RE: Where to get a 914 Intercooler? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Shaun Simpkins" <shauns@hevanet.com>
-----Original Message-----
From: Simpkins, Shaun [mailto:Shaun_Simpkins@or.mxim.com]
Subject: FW: Message *Not* Posted to Europa-List...
-----Original Message-----
From: Matronics Email Bounce Service [mailto:bounces@matronics.com]
Subject: Message *Not* Posted to Europa-List...
--
-- "Poster: "Simpkins, Shaun" <Shaun_Simpkins@or.mxim.com>"
-- "Subject: RE: Where to get a 914 Intercooler?"
--
-- The message below was not posted to the Europa-List because the
-- poster is not a member of any Email List on the Matronics Email System.
--
-- Note that this check can be triggered in some cases where your
-- your message's From: address isn't an *exact* match to the email
-- address that is subscribed. An example of this might be where
-- you are subscribed to a List as:
--
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--
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--
-- While these may be functionally the same email address, there is
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-- If this has occured to you while posting a message to a List here at
-- Matronics, please either change your email application's configuration
-- so that your From: line matches the email address you have subscribed
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-- address an subscribe your actual email address. The Matronics Email
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-- Thank you for your interest in these Email Lists,
--
-- Matt Dralle
-- Matronics Email List Administrator
-- dralle@matronics.com
--
--
>-------------------
>
>
> From Shaun_Simpkins@or.mxim.com Mon Nov 8 07:27:54 2004
> Received: from barracuda.matronics.com (barracuda.matronics.com
[66.92.24.21])
> by matronics.com (8.11.6/8.11.0/Rbl-Orbs-Dul) with ESMTP id
iA8FRsw09064
> X-Barracuda-URL: http://66.92.24.21:8000/cgi-bin/mark.cgi
> Received: from mfnex1.maximhq.com (or.mxim.com [204.17.142.6])
> by barracuda.matronics.com (Spam Firewall) with ESMTP id
There isn't one that the factory offers.
Denis Vories had one custom-made for his Europa by one of the many
automobile aftermarket shops in the L.A. area. Vories' vague description of
it and
pictures of the installation were posted on the now-defunct
www.europa-usa.com website.
As of 2002 Vories was trying to scare up enough interest in it to get a
small
production run started.
However, he would not release the engineering drawings or specifications
because he wanted to recoup the engineering costs.
The design of the intercooler is a bit tricky. It requires a very low
pressure drop across the heat exchanger, which is not common in most
automotive
intercoolers.
SS
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: What engine for my Europa? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Shaun Simpkins" <shauns@hevanet.com>
If you are interested in low "observer" noise, one thing to consider is
that the 914's turbo removes a lot of energy, and therefore noise, from
the engine exhaust. Noise isn't much of a concern in the US - yet - but
it's a big deal in Europe and has spawned some interesting designs.
I'm thinking of the HB207 Alfa, the prototype of which used a 5-blade CS
prop of scimitar shape turning at 1800RPM to reduce observer noise to
57dBA, about the level of normal conversation. The engine was a 110HP
2:1 geared Porsche, which, as you might expect, enjoyed such wide
acceptance that it was replaced by a Rotax 912/914.
Andy's comments about the Jabiru 3300 installation are very interesting
and informative. John Lawton's comments about the quietness of the Jabiru
installation are provocative, given the 3000RPM takeoff RPM. Andy, would
you happen to have any ideas as to why this is so, and what Jabiru does
to address the observer noise issue?
SS
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: What engine for my Europa? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Terry Seaver <terrys@cisco.com>
Hi Richard,
You didn't say where you do your flying. If you intend flying at
altitude like we do around the Sierra Nevadas, you might consider the
914 the best bet.
We have a mono-wheel XS with 912S and Airmaster prop. I would seriously
consider installing the 914 or Jabiru over the 912S, given our
experiences (we have over 400 hours on the plane/engine).
Issues I have with the 912S are:
1) It shakes the whole plane when starting and stopping, causing great
stress on any number of componants. Our exhaust system is in constant
need of repair because of this. An ignition wire probably broke because
of this. Standing outside the uncowled engine and watching the extreme
travel of the shaken componants can be a real eye opener. It is not
unusual to see +2G/0G on the panel mounted accelerometer following a
start or stop. I would guess the 912S is worse than the 914 because of
its higher compression. I would expect the Jabiru to be much smoother.
2) The 912S is a little anemic at high density altitudes. At 7,000+
feet the plane has difficulty accelerating past 55 knots on take off
until the gear/flaps are lifted a little. Climb rate at these altitudes
can also be lower than I would like.
3) The mixture becomes rich at altitude, negating the fuel economy
advantages of flying at altitude. The 914 is altitude compensating, and
I assume the Jabiru has a mixture control (?).
4) Although the Rotax is claimed to have a TBO of 1000 hours or greater
it is recommended that the gearbox be removed and sent in for check out
every 300-400 hours. There have also been suggestions that idling the
912S down to 1400 rpm can cause damage to the gearbox due to rough
idling. We idle our engine at about 1700-1800 rpm, which make the
landings a little hotter with the additional idle thrust.
just my two cents worth,
regards,
Terry Seaver
A135 / N135TD
Richard Sementilli wrote:
>--> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Sementilli <rsementi@gmail.com>
>
>I am down to 3 choices for an engine for my Europa.
>1. Rotax 912S
>2. Rotax 914
>3. Jabiru 3300
>
>I would like to get objective opinions and actual experiences from
>anyone about the pro's and cons of each engine.
>My first choice is the 914 because of the all around performance but
>more than the huge price, I am worried about the complexity of the
>engine as it relates to maintenance and overall reliability. I have
>spoken to a few mechanics for Rotax but none of them have any
>experience with the 914 turbo. They all say to keep it simple and go
>with the 912 or the 3300. I agree but I'm willing to stretch that goal
>if feel that I could handle the burden of its complexity.
>My most probable choice would be the 912S because it seems I can get
>great performance (the same or better than the Jabiru 3300) with
>relative ease of operation and mainenance, lighter weight, and
>comparable price to the Jabiru. I've even found a mechanic that is
>near (2 hours away) to my location. However, to the best of my
>research, it is still a more complicated engine and drive unit than
>the simple low reving Jabiru. It needs pump gas almost always, which
>may not be easy to come by during cross country flights.
>The Jabiru is the least expensive, most simple design, seems easier to
>maintain, and is direct drive. However, it's less proven, heavier and
>I can't find any repair facilities in the NY tristate area.
>Am I missing any other engine possibilities that could be even a better choice?
>
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | RE:Brake Oil Seals |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Burrows" <alan@kestrel-insurance.com>
Can anyone help me with finding replacement seals for the parking brake
unit on my tri-gear. I was doing an overhaul this weekend and found some
of the seals were badly degraded, so as I had the unit in pieces it
seemed sensible to replace them all. Also is there a "best way" to
refill the system with fluid?
I thought the best way was to force brake fluid up through one of the
callipers under pressure, thereby pushing the air to the top of the
system. This theory falls down however when you notice that there is a
hole between the cylinders in the nice shiny piston unit that I thought
kept the two brakes on separate systems. So if you fill from one
calliper then you will simply force the air down the other as well as up
into the master cylinder in the engine bay and it will not be possible
to completely purge all the air or am I thinking about this wrongly?
Many Thanks
Alan
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: What engine for my Europa? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Gilles Thesee" <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
> Andy's comments about the Jabiru 3300 installation are very interesting
> and informative. John Lawton's comments about the quietness of the Jabiru
> installation are provocative, given the 3000RPM takeoff RPM. Andy, would
> you happen to have any ideas as to why this is so, and what Jabiru does
> to address the observer noise issue?
>
Here are a few data on the Jabiru 2200 direct from DynAero, the French
manufacturer and designer of the MCRs :
- They never had any problems with the Jabiru (except one which was covered
by warranty)
- It is lighter than the 912, which is it's main advantage
- It can't really use it's 80 hp due to the high prop RPM (3300 RPM as
compared to 2300 for the Rotax)
- For the same reasons the observer noise is higher because of the higher
tip mach number.
- It necessitates a real break in period of 50 h, with mineral oil,
adjustments every 5 hours, and much heating.
- They have 250 Rotax flying, and only two Jabiru so they don't have much
flight experience to date.
- They would recommend the Rotax for a private owner and the Jabiru for the
flying clubs, who have a Lycoming culture and would keep their familiar
landmarks with this "mini Lycoming".
Further, flying clubs use the Jabiru powered MCR circa 220 km/h, with a
fixed pitch propeller with medium pitch. This setup gives a performance very
similar to the familiar Robin DR 400.
- DynAero's intentions are to have few Jabiru powered aircraft for the time
being, but with high annual flight time (500 h per year) in order to rapidly
build experience with the engine.
- They have a great faith in this engine.
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
Message 10
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Mon, 08 Nov 2004 10:42:53 -0800 (PST)
| Subject: | Re: What engine for my Europa? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Sementilli <rsementi@gmail.com>
Thank you for your email.
1. Yes, I've heard about the bumpy starts and stops with the 912S
motor. I also heard that the new ones are equipped with a stronger
starter motor that powers through the high compression starts, have
you heard this? I aslo read another email here on the Europa list that
claims wonderful performance even at altitude with the 912S...I'm so
confused!!!
2. I intend to fly it mostly on the east coast but I do intend to take
it to Lake Tahoe too so I was hoping to get through the mountains with
the 912S. I would buy the 914 turbo but I am afraid of the reliability
and complexity of the engine.
3. I have never heard about the mixture issue, is that common?
4. Never heard about the gear box wear due to the bumby idle either.
Is their any solution to this while still using the 912S?
On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 09:53:15 -0800, Terry Seaver <terrys@cisco.com> wrote:
> --> Europa-List message posted by: Terry Seaver <terrys@cisco.com>
>
> Hi Richard,
>
> You didn't say where you do your flying. If you intend flying at
> altitude like we do around the Sierra Nevadas, you might consider the
> 914 the best bet.
> We have a mono-wheel XS with 912S and Airmaster prop. I would seriously
> consider installing the 914 or Jabiru over the 912S, given our
> experiences (we have over 400 hours on the plane/engine).
> Issues I have with the 912S are:
>
> 1) It shakes the whole plane when starting and stopping, causing great
> stress on any number of componants. Our exhaust system is in constant
> need of repair because of this. An ignition wire probably broke because
> of this. Standing outside the uncowled engine and watching the extreme
> travel of the shaken componants can be a real eye opener. It is not
> unusual to see +2G/0G on the panel mounted accelerometer following a
> start or stop. I would guess the 912S is worse than the 914 because of
> its higher compression. I would expect the Jabiru to be much smoother.
>
> 2) The 912S is a little anemic at high density altitudes. At 7,000+
> feet the plane has difficulty accelerating past 55 knots on take off
> until the gear/flaps are lifted a little. Climb rate at these altitudes
> can also be lower than I would like.
>
> 3) The mixture becomes rich at altitude, negating the fuel economy
> advantages of flying at altitude. The 914 is altitude compensating, and
> I assume the Jabiru has a mixture control (?).
>
> 4) Although the Rotax is claimed to have a TBO of 1000 hours or greater
> it is recommended that the gearbox be removed and sent in for check out
> every 300-400 hours. There have also been suggestions that idling the
> 912S down to 1400 rpm can cause damage to the gearbox due to rough
> idling. We idle our engine at about 1700-1800 rpm, which make the
> landings a little hotter with the additional idle thrust.
>
> just my two cents worth,
> regards,
> Terry Seaver
> A135 / N135TD
>
> Richard Sementilli wrote:
>
> >--> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Sementilli <rsementi@gmail.com>
> >
> >I am down to 3 choices for an engine for my Europa.
> >1. Rotax 912S
> >2. Rotax 914
> >3. Jabiru 3300
> >
> >I would like to get objective opinions and actual experiences from
> >anyone about the pro's and cons of each engine.
> >My first choice is the 914 because of the all around performance but
> >more than the huge price, I am worried about the complexity of the
> >engine as it relates to maintenance and overall reliability. I have
> >spoken to a few mechanics for Rotax but none of them have any
> >experience with the 914 turbo. They all say to keep it simple and go
> >with the 912 or the 3300. I agree but I'm willing to stretch that goal
> >if feel that I could handle the burden of its complexity.
> >My most probable choice would be the 912S because it seems I can get
> >great performance (the same or better than the Jabiru 3300) with
> >relative ease of operation and mainenance, lighter weight, and
> >comparable price to the Jabiru. I've even found a mechanic that is
> >near (2 hours away) to my location. However, to the best of my
> >research, it is still a more complicated engine and drive unit than
> >the simple low reving Jabiru. It needs pump gas almost always, which
> >may not be easy to come by during cross country flights.
> >The Jabiru is the least expensive, most simple design, seems easier to
> >maintain, and is direct drive. However, it's less proven, heavier and
> >I can't find any repair facilities in the NY tristate area.
> >Am I missing any other engine possibilities that could be even a better choice?
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
Message 11
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi>
For your information:
As you remember my earlier pip-pin disaster,
I ordered last Thursday a new pip-pin from
www.mcmaster.com
and got it today. So it was only four days
shipment from the other side of the ball.
McMaster-Carr service is exellent.
I decided to try part # 93750A720 which is
T-Handle Push-Button Quick-Release Pin
W/ Lanyard, 1/2" Diameter, 3 1/2" Usable
Lenght.
Unit Price is 32,32 USA dollars.
What I got:
It looks exactly like original exept
T-handle and lanyard. I think manufacturer
is same. The head of the pin is slightly less
tapered. All the materials, dimensions and
even colours seems to be same. It works
just like original do. So far I am happy.
Raimo M W Toivio
OH-XRT #417
OH-CVK
OH-BLL
37500 Lempaala
Finland
tel + 358 3 3753 777
fax + 358 3 3753 100
gsm + 358 40 590 1450
raimo.toivio@rwm.fi
www.rwm.fi
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: New Spar Pip-pn |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
One pip or two pips?
Duncan Mcf.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi>
Subject: Europa-List: New Spar Pip-pn
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio@rwm.fi>
>
> For your information:
>
> As you remember my earlier pip-pin disaster,
> I ordered last Thursday a new pip-pin from
> www.mcmaster.com
> and got it today. So it was only four days
> shipment from the other side of the ball.
> McMaster-Carr service is exellent.
>
> I decided to try part # 93750A720 which is
> T-Handle Push-Button Quick-Release Pin
> W/ Lanyard, 1/2" Diameter, 3 1/2" Usable
> Lenght.
>
> Unit Price is 32,32 USA dollars.
>
> What I got:
>
> It looks exactly like original exept
> T-handle and lanyard. I think manufacturer
> is same. The head of the pin is slightly less
> tapered. All the materials, dimensions and
> even colours seems to be same. It works
> just like original do. So far I am happy.
>
> Raimo M W Toivio
>
> OH-XRT #417
> OH-CVK
> OH-BLL
>
> 37500 Lempaala
> Finland
> tel + 358 3 3753 777
> fax + 358 3 3753 100
> gsm + 358 40 590 1450
>
> raimo.toivio@rwm.fi
> www.rwm.fi
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: What engine for my Europa? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
The gearbox service interval is the same for both 912 and 912S. So it's not
necessarily a function of the high-compression of the "S". In any case, the
"S" box is stronger.
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Sementilli" <rsementi@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: What engine for my Europa?
> --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Sementilli <rsementi@gmail.com>
>
> Thank you for your email.
> 1. Yes, I've heard about the bumpy starts and stops with the 912S
> motor. I also heard that the new ones are equipped with a stronger
> starter motor that powers through the high compression starts, have
> you heard this? I aslo read another email here on the Europa list that
> claims wonderful performance even at altitude with the 912S...I'm so
> confused!!!
> 2. I intend to fly it mostly on the east coast but I do intend to take
> it to Lake Tahoe too so I was hoping to get through the mountains with
> the 912S. I would buy the 914 turbo but I am afraid of the reliability
> and complexity of the engine.
> 3. I have never heard about the mixture issue, is that common?
> 4. Never heard about the gear box wear due to the bumby idle either.
> Is their any solution to this while still using the 912S?
>
>
> On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 09:53:15 -0800, Terry Seaver <terrys@cisco.com> wrote:
> > --> Europa-List message posted by: Terry Seaver <terrys@cisco.com>
> >
> > Hi Richard,
> >
> > You didn't say where you do your flying. If you intend flying at
> > altitude like we do around the Sierra Nevadas, you might consider the
> > 914 the best bet.
> > We have a mono-wheel XS with 912S and Airmaster prop. I would seriously
> > consider installing the 914 or Jabiru over the 912S, given our
> > experiences (we have over 400 hours on the plane/engine).
> > Issues I have with the 912S are:
> >
> > 1) It shakes the whole plane when starting and stopping, causing great
> > stress on any number of componants. Our exhaust system is in constant
> > need of repair because of this. An ignition wire probably broke because
> > of this. Standing outside the uncowled engine and watching the extreme
> > travel of the shaken componants can be a real eye opener. It is not
> > unusual to see +2G/0G on the panel mounted accelerometer following a
> > start or stop. I would guess the 912S is worse than the 914 because of
> > its higher compression. I would expect the Jabiru to be much smoother.
> >
> > 2) The 912S is a little anemic at high density altitudes. At 7,000+
> > feet the plane has difficulty accelerating past 55 knots on take off
> > until the gear/flaps are lifted a little. Climb rate at these altitudes
> > can also be lower than I would like.
> >
> > 3) The mixture becomes rich at altitude, negating the fuel economy
> > advantages of flying at altitude. The 914 is altitude compensating, and
> > I assume the Jabiru has a mixture control (?).
> >
> > 4) Although the Rotax is claimed to have a TBO of 1000 hours or greater
> > it is recommended that the gearbox be removed and sent in for check out
> > every 300-400 hours. There have also been suggestions that idling the
> > 912S down to 1400 rpm can cause damage to the gearbox due to rough
> > idling. We idle our engine at about 1700-1800 rpm, which make the
> > landings a little hotter with the additional idle thrust.
> >
> > just my two cents worth,
> > regards,
> > Terry Seaver
> > A135 / N135TD
> >
> > Richard Sementilli wrote:
> >
> > >--> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Sementilli
<rsementi@gmail.com>
> > >
> > >I am down to 3 choices for an engine for my Europa.
> > >1. Rotax 912S
> > >2. Rotax 914
> > >3. Jabiru 3300
> > >
> > >I would like to get objective opinions and actual experiences from
> > >anyone about the pro's and cons of each engine.
> > >My first choice is the 914 because of the all around performance but
> > >more than the huge price, I am worried about the complexity of the
> > >engine as it relates to maintenance and overall reliability. I have
> > >spoken to a few mechanics for Rotax but none of them have any
> > >experience with the 914 turbo. They all say to keep it simple and go
> > >with the 912 or the 3300. I agree but I'm willing to stretch that goal
> > >if feel that I could handle the burden of its complexity.
> > >My most probable choice would be the 912S because it seems I can get
> > >great performance (the same or better than the Jabiru 3300) with
> > >relative ease of operation and mainenance, lighter weight, and
> > >comparable price to the Jabiru. I've even found a mechanic that is
> > >near (2 hours away) to my location. However, to the best of my
> > >research, it is still a more complicated engine and drive unit than
> > >the simple low reving Jabiru. It needs pump gas almost always, which
> > >may not be easy to come by during cross country flights.
> > >The Jabiru is the least expensive, most simple design, seems easier to
> > >maintain, and is direct drive. However, it's less proven, heavier and
> > >I can't find any repair facilities in the NY tristate area.
> > >Am I missing any other engine possibilities that could be even a better
choice?
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | 912S - cylinder cowl??? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Sidsel & Svein Johnsen" <sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no>
I downloaded Issue 2 of the 912/912S installation manual from the Club's
members' section today, to see if it contains any improvements over Issue 1
which came with my Firewall Forward kit in 2001. It does, but it also
leaves me quite confused and concerned:
On p. 7-3 it says: "The Rotax 912S engine is provided with a glass fibre
cowl around the cylinders to ensure that sufficient cooling air reaches
them", and then goes on to describe how to make the additional air inlet for
this cowl by using a "splash" moulding. My 912S (delivered by Europa in
Lakeland in 2001) does NOT have this glass fibre cowl, but the FF kit HAS
the splash moulding!
The 912S installation instructions from Rotax (came with the engine) does
not mention anything regarding the cylinder cowl, and does not show it on
any of the engine drawings, either.
Can anyone explain this? Do I have an older version of 912S than what Issue
2 of the factory's manual refers to (serial no. 4426924)? Is the cylinder
cowl required/recommended? Is it a Rotax part or from Europa?
Regards,
Svein
A225 - now in Norway
Message 15
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| Subject: | Help - I need a ferry pilot in the UK |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Rees" <peter.rees05@ntlworld.com>
Hi Guys
Our Europa has finally been converted to a tri gear and will be ready for collection
in a couple of days or so. Only problem is, its in Yorkshire and needs to
get home to Rochester.
I'm not experienced on type and the chances of finding a day with enough VFR wx
at this time of year to get from here to Yorkshire, get enough training to be
proficient then make the flight home is next to zero.
Is there anyone either in the South East or Yorkshire area who would be willing
to do me the massive favour of collecting the aeroplane. I would of course arrange
for you to get home and compensate you for your time.
Failing that, is there anyone in the same areas who may have a tri gear trailer
I could borrow from them for a reasonable consideration?
Peter
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: 912S - cylinder cowl??? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Gilles Thesee" <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
> The 912S installation instructions from Rotax (came with the engine) does
> not mention anything regarding the cylinder cowl, and does not show it on
> any of the engine drawings, either.
>
> Can anyone explain this? Do I have an older version of 912S than what
Issue
> 2 of the factory's manual refers to (serial no. 4426924)? Is the cylinder
> cowl required/recommended? Is it a Rotax part or from Europa?
This "cylinder cowl" is an option from Rotax. You can retrofit it (we did).
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
Message 17
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| Subject: | Long wings and ratings |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Dave Anderson" <dja767@charter.net>
Long wings glider rating - if you want it to be registered that way with the FAA.
Dave
A227
Mini U2
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: 912S - cylinder cowl??? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: JEFF ROBERTS <jeff@rmmm.net>
Svein,
If I had to do mine al over again I would not have used the splash
molding to make the NACA vent on the top. I would have like others
brought the intake air up from the bottom NACA inlet that the 914 uses.
Some have created a plenum that covers the top of the air box that a 2
inch scat tube can attach too from the lower inlet. The splash molding
is unnecessary and if you do want an inlet on the top you can make it
easier by simply cutting the opening shape of the inlet but not the
forward narrow part. Just push it down about an inch in the back and
bid over it from underneath. Thats what flight crafters does. They
throw away the splash molding. Which I find amusing as Europa charged
me $200 for the thing. I was one of the few that had to receive the FWF
parts separate. If you did use the underneath NACA it would allow you
to use a bypass valve to draw under the cowl air that could serve as
carb heat. A builder in Canada has done this with great results. Hope
this helps.
Jeff
A258
Finished priming all flying services. Stalled now as business is
booming.
On Nov 8, 2004, at 3:40 PM, Sidsel & Svein Johnsen wrote:
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Sidsel & Svein Johnsen"
> <sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no>
>
> I downloaded Issue 2 of the 912/912S installation manual from the
> Club's
> members' section today, to see if it contains any improvements over
> Issue 1
> which came with my Firewall Forward kit in 2001. It does, but it also
> leaves me quite confused and concerned:
>
> On p. 7-3 it says: "The Rotax 912S engine is provided with a glass
> fibre
> cowl around the cylinders to ensure that sufficient cooling air reaches
> them", and then goes on to describe how to make the additional air
> inlet for
> this cowl by using a "splash" moulding. My 912S (delivered by Europa
> in
> Lakeland in 2001) does NOT have this glass fibre cowl, but the FF kit
> HAS
> the splash moulding!
>
> The 912S installation instructions from Rotax (came with the engine)
> does
> not mention anything regarding the cylinder cowl, and does not show it
> on
> any of the engine drawings, either.
>
> Can anyone explain this? Do I have an older version of 912S than what
> Issue
> 2 of the factory's manual refers to (serial no. 4426924)? Is the
> cylinder
> cowl required/recommended? Is it a Rotax part or from Europa?
>
>
> Regards,
> Svein
> A225 - now in Norway
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Long wings and ratings |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Kevin Klinefelter" <kevann@gte.net>
And do you need to also have a "self launch" logbook endorsement ?
Kevin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dave Anderson
Subject: Europa-List: Long wings and ratings
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Dave Anderson" <dja767@charter.net>
Long wings glider rating - if you want it to be registered that way with
the FAA.
Dave
A227
Mini U2
---
---
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: What engine for my Europa? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "KARL HEINDL" <kheindl@msn.com>
Terry,
Y ouseem to be badmouthing a perfectly good engine just because you have a problem
with yours. Some builders have their 912 S running as smooth as a sewing machine.
Mine could be smoother, but then I have not yet done a carb or propeller
blade balance. Techniques for smooth startups and shutdowns were discussed
in detail recently on this forum. I have no idea about high altitude performance,
but one owner claims 914 equivalent performance up to 10,000 feet. The 914
is obviously a better performer at really high altitudes. It should also be kept
in mind that early Europa builders did not have the choice of the S model.
I have read all the engine discussions and it seems that each type has had reports
ranging from awful to wonderful. How is a newcomer supposed to make up his
mind ?
Karl
From: Terry Seaver terrys@cisco.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: What engine for my Europa?
-- Europa-List message posted by: Terry Seaver terrys@cisco.com
Hi Richard,
You didn't say where you do your flying.If you intend flying at
altitude like we do around the Sierra Nevadas, you might consider the
914 the best bet.
We have a mono-wheel XS with 912S and Airmaster prop.I would seriously
consider installing the 914 or Jabiru over the 912S, given our
experiences (we have over 400 hours on the plane/engine).
Issues I have with the 912S are:
1) It shakes the whole plane when starting and stopping, causing great
stress on any number of componants.Our exhaust system is in constant
need of repair because of this.An ignition wire probably broke because
of this.Standing outside the uncowled engine and watching the extreme
travel of the shaken componants can be a real eye opener.It is not
unusual to see +2G/0G on the panel mounted accelerometer following a
start or stop. I would guess the 912S is worse than the 914 because of
its higher compression.I would expect the Jabiru to be much smoother.
2) The 912S is a little anemic at high density altitudes.At 7,000+
feet the plane has difficulty accelerating past 55 knots on take off
until the gear/flaps are lifted a little.Climb rate at these altitudes
can also be lower than I would like.
3) The mixture becomes rich at altitude, negating the fuel economy
advantages of flying at altitude.The 914 is altitude compensating, and
I assume the Jabiru has a mixture control (?).
4) Although the Rotax is claimed to have a TBO of 1000 hours or greater
it is recommended that the gearbox be removed and sent in for check out
every 300-400 hours.There have also been suggestions that idling the
912S down to 1400 rpm can cause damage to the gearbox due to rough
idling.We idle our engine at about 1700-1800 rpm, which make the
landings a little hotter with the additional idle thrust.
just my two cents worth,
regards,
Terry Seaver
A135 / N135TD
Richard Sementilli wrote:
-- Europa-List message posted by: Richard Sementilli rsementi@gmail.com
I am down to 3 choices for an engine for my Europa.
1. Rotax 912S
2. Rotax 914
3. Jabiru 3300
I would like to get objective opinions and actual experiences from
anyone about the pro's and cons of each engine.
My first choice is the 914 because of the all around performance but
more than the huge price, I am worried about the complexity of the
engine as it relates to maintenance and overall reliability. I have
spoken to a few mechanics for Rotax but none of them have any
experience with the 914 turbo. They all say to keep it simple and go
with the 912 or the 3300. I agree but I'm willing to stretch that goal
iffeel that I could handle the burden of its complexity.
My most probable choice would be the 912S because it seems I can get
great performance (the same or better than the Jabiru 3300) with
relative ease of operation and mainenance, lighter weight, and
comparable price to the Jabiru. I've even found a mechanic that is
near (2 hours away) to my location. However, to the best of my
research, it is still a more complicated engine and drive unit than
the simple low reving Jabiru. It needs pump gas almost always, which
may not be easy to come by during cross country flights.
The Jabiru is the least expensive, most simple design, seems easier to
maintain, and is direct drive. However, it's less proven, heavier and
I can't find any repair facilities in the NY tristate area.
Am I missing any other engine possibilities that could be even a better choice?
Message 21
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--> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Boulet <possibletodo@yahoo.com>
My dear friends;
Well it finally happened...the test pilot of my beautiful airplane project turned
the controls over to me and I flew for the first time on Saturday,November
6th.
It was a beautiful day at the Mesa, Arizona airport (called Falcon field) with
high clouds and a gentle breeze. Temperatures were near perfect at about 73
degrees. The Commemorative Air Force (used to be called the Confederate Air Force-
they restore and maintain flying WWII type aircraft) was having a big
event in celebration of Veterans day so there were many interesting aircraft flying
about the field that day.
We took off and climbed out to the East about 3,000 feet above ground level. I
practiced learning my new Grand Rapids EIS (which I don't recommend) and also
how this airplane would handle. I practiced some aerobatic maneuvers- stalls,
spins, aileron rolls, wingovers, and barrel rolls.
Apparently the aerobatics loosened some "chaff" that was in the plastic fuel tank.
We had taken pains to flush this system out completely but apparently this
is almost impossible to do. We had changed the fuel filters just before flight
and found little debris in them so thought we had no problem. In any event,
the fuel pressure starting fluctuating wildly swinging closer and closer to
zero. We turned on a second fuel pump (called a boost pump) to increase fuel
pressure through the filters. This helped marginally but the pressure continued
to drop. We knew we could not make it back to Falcon field so started looking
for an alternative and found one called Williams Gateway airport (an old
military base). It was 9 miles away and as we started there we reduced power
(to reduce fuel demands on the engine). The plane was running roughly by this
time and even quit entirely a couple of times. Fortunately our high airspeed
in this wonderful plane caused the prop to windmill a
nd
re-start by itself almost immediately. We landed with no further incident.
A call to our mechanics showed that the fuel filters had not been installed in
tandem but had mistakenly been installed to separate gas tanks (a main tank and
an auxiliary). While on the ground we switched to the auxiliary tank and the
fuel pressure jumped to full without a problem. You might wonder why we didn't
do this in the air. The reason is that since the aux tank rarely gets used
any sort of debris tends to collect there. Therefore if you're having a problem
with pressure, switching tanks may make the situation worse.
We prepared to fly back to Falcon Field however another sad event occurred. A
pilot with a Piper Super Cub (an old tail dragger style plane from the 1940's
but still in production- you may have seen them- they are nearly always painted
bright yellow) was carrying a passenger- one of the spectators from the Veterans
Day show- and as he took off, he climbed faster than the plane was designed
for. The result was a stall/spin into the ground smashing into a
military plane called an "Albatross." It killed both pilot and passenger while
destroying both aircraft. The airport was closed for the remainder of the day.
We called our mechanics again and they brought out a trailer to pick us up.
My stomach was a bit sore after all this excitement but as someone once said, "walking
a tightrope is living, everything else is just waiting."
Thanks for sharing in my thoughts about this wonderful adventure of life we are
on,
Your friend,
Paul Boulet, N914PB, Malibu, California
Message 22
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| Subject: | 912S - cylinder cowl??? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Sidsel & Svein Johnsen" <sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no>
Gilles,
Thank you for your quick response:
>>This "cylinder cowl" is an option from Rotax. You can retrofit it (we
did).<<
- Did you retrofit it before first flight, or later because you experienced
high cyl. head temperatures?
- Is it easy to retrofit?
Jeff,
- and thanks to you, too, for the recommendation re. the NACA inlet on top,
to the air box.
Regards,
Svein
A225 - now in Norway
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