---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 11/08/04: 22 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:22 AM - List Fund Raiser - What Listers Are Saying... (Matt Dralle) 2. 03:03 AM - Re: Insurance for aeroplane parts (Raimo Toivio) 3. 05:22 AM - Re: Insurance for aeroplane parts (Gerry Holland) 4. 06:01 AM - Re: Insurance for aeroplane parts (Jim Puglise) 5. 09:46 AM - Re: Where to get a 914 Intercooler? (Shaun Simpkins) 6. 09:46 AM - Re: What engine for my Europa? (Shaun Simpkins) 7. 09:53 AM - Re: What engine for my Europa? (Terry Seaver) 8. 10:28 AM - Re:Brake Oil Seals (Alan Burrows) 9. 10:36 AM - Re: Re: What engine for my Europa? (Gilles Thesee) 10. 10:43 AM - Re: What engine for my Europa? (Richard Sementilli) 11. 11:14 AM - New Spar Pip-pn (Raimo Toivio) 12. 12:08 PM - Re: New Spar Pip-pn (Duncan McFadyean) 13. 12:08 PM - Re: What engine for my Europa? (Duncan McFadyean) 14. 01:41 PM - 912S - cylinder cowl??? (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen) 15. 01:57 PM - Help - I need a ferry pilot in the UK (Peter Rees) 16. 02:23 PM - Re: 912S - cylinder cowl??? (Gilles Thesee) 17. 02:26 PM - Long wings and ratings (Dave Anderson) 18. 03:52 PM - Re: 912S - cylinder cowl??? (JEFF ROBERTS) 19. 05:46 PM - Re: Long wings and ratings (Kevin Klinefelter) 20. 06:27 PM - Re: What engine for my Europa? (KARL HEINDL) 21. 10:42 PM - my first flight (Paul Boulet) 22. 10:43 PM - SV: 912S - cylinder cowl??? (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:22:27 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Europa-List: List Fund Raiser - What Listers Are Saying... --> Europa-List message posted by: Matt Dralle Dear Listers, First, I'd like say *thank you* to everyone that has already made a Contribution to this year's List Fund Raiser! Thank you! If you haven't made your Contribution, won't you show your support for these valuable services today? Since there's no advertising or other forms of direct commercialism on the forums to support the Lists, its solely YOUR GENEROSITY that keeps them running!! Members have been including some very nice comments along with their Contributions this year. Please take a minute to read over some of the thoughts your fellow Listers have expressed regarding the Lists and what they mean to them. What do the Lists mean to you...? http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Admin The amount of information and simple entertainment I derive from the lists you administer is enormous. -Chris R. The [List] digest is the one message in my inbox that I look forward to reading every day. -Brian U. [The Lists] are a major asset for the homebuilder. -Gary K. I use, and enjoy the List all the time. It is a fantastic tool. -Patrick M. [The List] has already paid for itself by answering two questions that I had concerning construction of my [Homebuilt]. -Mike L. [The List] has provided me with very useful information and helpful building tips. -Michael E. Thanks for keeping this text-only and commercial free for all us dial-up users! Your Lists are the best... -Mark P. Great service, I have learned many valuable lessons from others on the [List]... -Malcolm T. ...great List service [for] the many and varied within the aviation community. -David P. ...great service. -Terry B. ...enjoy monitoring the lists. -Ed A. ...I do enjoy the Matrix (List). -Galen H. Thanks for a great listserve! -Gary S. ...GREAT lists...! -Ray M. It is a great service. -Robert K. Invaluable! -Larry M. [The Lists are] the backbone (along with a UK list for Europa) of my building program. -Fergus K. Thanks for supporting aviation in this way. -Reade G. ...wonderful source of info! -Lynn M. [The] List has certainly helped me along the way. -Kevin S. ...excellent list. -Ed A. I enjoy the [the] List, and find it useful. -John G. An indispensable part of my day every day! -Owen B. A great source of help, encouragement and "partners in crime"! -Richard T. Great List. -Ed K. Couldn't have [finished my project] without your site and the help of the guys on the List. -Larry M. ...great service! -Walt S. I enjoy the [the] List everyday. -John B. Thank you for keeping everyone in line :) Its a great list to stay subscribed to. -Janet D. ...the most important resource I have to support my hobby. -Jeff D. Thank you for all the great features. -Brian U. Very valuable resource. -Thomas S. ...great service. -William C. Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft do not archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:03:29 AM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Insurance for aeroplane parts --> Europa-List message posted by: "Raimo Toivio" Yes of course! I have an insurance to cover fire, theft and all kind of accidents. The insurance covers only parts + work shop + tools and it does not cover manhours (too valuable to cover!). The worth of my insurance is so far about 100 000 euros = 120 000 USA dollars = 70 000 english pounds. I pay about 0,5 % a year. If the worst happens, a good insurance is some kind of skinny consolation. Buy an insurance and you never need it, they say. I hope it works. Regards, Raimo M W Toivio OH-XRT #417 OH-CVK OH-BLL 37500 Lempaala Finland tel + 358 3 3753 777 fax + 358 3 3753 100 gsm + 358 40 590 1450 raimo.toivio@rwm.fi www.rwm.fi do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ronald J. Parigoris" Subject: Europa-List: Insurance for aeroplane parts > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Ronald J. Parigoris" > > Any recommendations for insurance on Europa aeroplane parts sitting in a > hangar well > before ready to fly? > > Thx. > Sincerely > Ron Parigoris > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:22:19 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Insurance for aeroplane parts From: Gerry Holland --> Europa-List message posted by: Gerry Holland I have Insurance whilst building. 40,000 Cover whilst in Workshop and it also covers Hull and damage in transit on a Trailer. Price: 260.00 per annum Regards Gerry Europa 384 G-FIZY Trigear with Rotax 912 and Arplast CS Prop. Dynon EFIS, KMD 150, Icom A-200 and SL70 Transponder. PSS AoA Fitted. http://www.g-fizy.com Mobile: +44 7808 402404 WebFax: +44 870 7059985 gnholland@onetel.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:01:19 AM PST US From: "Jim Puglise" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Insurance for aeroplane parts --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jim Puglise" Ron- I am using the regular EAA insurance through Falcon. You can bind it on a phone call, cost is 1% of the insured value. I was concerned because of the number of hurricanes in FL this year. I've never had a claim under it so can't address exactly how good it is. Jim, A283 -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ronald J. Parigoris Subject: Europa-List: Insurance for aeroplane parts --> Europa-List message posted by: "Ronald J. Parigoris" Any recommendations for insurance on Europa aeroplane parts sitting in a hangar well before ready to fly? Thx. Sincerely Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:46:35 AM PST US From: "Shaun Simpkins" Subject: Europa-List: RE: Where to get a 914 Intercooler? --> Europa-List message posted by: "Shaun Simpkins" -----Original Message----- From: Simpkins, Shaun [mailto:Shaun_Simpkins@or.mxim.com] Subject: FW: Message *Not* Posted to Europa-List... -----Original Message----- From: Matronics Email Bounce Service [mailto:bounces@matronics.com] Subject: Message *Not* Posted to Europa-List... -- -- "Poster: "Simpkins, Shaun" " -- "Subject: RE: Where to get a 914 Intercooler?" -- -- The message below was not posted to the Europa-List because the -- poster is not a member of any Email List on the Matronics Email System. -- -- Note that this check can be triggered in some cases where your -- your message's From: address isn't an *exact* match to the email -- address that is subscribed. An example of this might be where -- you are subscribed to a List as: -- -- "joe@internet.com" -- -- but your email message's From: line shows your address as: -- -- "joe@email.internet.com" -- -- While these may be functionally the same email address, there is -- no way for the receiving email system to determine that they are -- in fact actually the same address. -- -- If this has occured to you while posting a message to a List here at -- Matronics, please either change your email application's configuration -- so that your From: line matches the email address you have subscribed -- as, or go to the Subscription Web Site and unsubscribe your old email -- address an subscribe your actual email address. The Matronics Email -- List Subscription Web Page can be found at: -- -- http://www.matronics.com/subscribe -- -- Thank you for your interest in these Email Lists, -- -- Matt Dralle -- Matronics Email List Administrator -- dralle@matronics.com -- -- >------------------- > > > From Shaun_Simpkins@or.mxim.com Mon Nov 8 07:27:54 2004 > Received: from barracuda.matronics.com (barracuda.matronics.com [66.92.24.21]) > by matronics.com (8.11.6/8.11.0/Rbl-Orbs-Dul) with ESMTP id iA8FRsw09064 > X-Barracuda-URL: http://66.92.24.21:8000/cgi-bin/mark.cgi > Received: from mfnex1.maximhq.com (or.mxim.com [204.17.142.6]) > by barracuda.matronics.com (Spam Firewall) with ESMTP id There isn't one that the factory offers. Denis Vories had one custom-made for his Europa by one of the many automobile aftermarket shops in the L.A. area. Vories' vague description of it and pictures of the installation were posted on the now-defunct www.europa-usa.com website. As of 2002 Vories was trying to scare up enough interest in it to get a small production run started. However, he would not release the engineering drawings or specifications because he wanted to recoup the engineering costs. The design of the intercooler is a bit tricky. It requires a very low pressure drop across the heat exchanger, which is not common in most automotive intercoolers. SS ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:46:35 AM PST US From: "Shaun Simpkins" Subject: Europa-List: Re: What engine for my Europa? --> Europa-List message posted by: "Shaun Simpkins" If you are interested in low "observer" noise, one thing to consider is that the 914's turbo removes a lot of energy, and therefore noise, from the engine exhaust. Noise isn't much of a concern in the US - yet - but it's a big deal in Europe and has spawned some interesting designs. I'm thinking of the HB207 Alfa, the prototype of which used a 5-blade CS prop of scimitar shape turning at 1800RPM to reduce observer noise to 57dBA, about the level of normal conversation. The engine was a 110HP 2:1 geared Porsche, which, as you might expect, enjoyed such wide acceptance that it was replaced by a Rotax 912/914. Andy's comments about the Jabiru 3300 installation are very interesting and informative. John Lawton's comments about the quietness of the Jabiru installation are provocative, given the 3000RPM takeoff RPM. Andy, would you happen to have any ideas as to why this is so, and what Jabiru does to address the observer noise issue? SS ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:53:41 AM PST US From: Terry Seaver Subject: Re: Europa-List: What engine for my Europa? --> Europa-List message posted by: Terry Seaver Hi Richard, You didn't say where you do your flying. If you intend flying at altitude like we do around the Sierra Nevadas, you might consider the 914 the best bet. We have a mono-wheel XS with 912S and Airmaster prop. I would seriously consider installing the 914 or Jabiru over the 912S, given our experiences (we have over 400 hours on the plane/engine). Issues I have with the 912S are: 1) It shakes the whole plane when starting and stopping, causing great stress on any number of componants. Our exhaust system is in constant need of repair because of this. An ignition wire probably broke because of this. Standing outside the uncowled engine and watching the extreme travel of the shaken componants can be a real eye opener. It is not unusual to see +2G/0G on the panel mounted accelerometer following a start or stop. I would guess the 912S is worse than the 914 because of its higher compression. I would expect the Jabiru to be much smoother. 2) The 912S is a little anemic at high density altitudes. At 7,000+ feet the plane has difficulty accelerating past 55 knots on take off until the gear/flaps are lifted a little. Climb rate at these altitudes can also be lower than I would like. 3) The mixture becomes rich at altitude, negating the fuel economy advantages of flying at altitude. The 914 is altitude compensating, and I assume the Jabiru has a mixture control (?). 4) Although the Rotax is claimed to have a TBO of 1000 hours or greater it is recommended that the gearbox be removed and sent in for check out every 300-400 hours. There have also been suggestions that idling the 912S down to 1400 rpm can cause damage to the gearbox due to rough idling. We idle our engine at about 1700-1800 rpm, which make the landings a little hotter with the additional idle thrust. just my two cents worth, regards, Terry Seaver A135 / N135TD Richard Sementilli wrote: >--> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Sementilli > >I am down to 3 choices for an engine for my Europa. >1. Rotax 912S >2. Rotax 914 >3. Jabiru 3300 > >I would like to get objective opinions and actual experiences from >anyone about the pro's and cons of each engine. >My first choice is the 914 because of the all around performance but >more than the huge price, I am worried about the complexity of the >engine as it relates to maintenance and overall reliability. I have >spoken to a few mechanics for Rotax but none of them have any >experience with the 914 turbo. They all say to keep it simple and go >with the 912 or the 3300. I agree but I'm willing to stretch that goal >if feel that I could handle the burden of its complexity. >My most probable choice would be the 912S because it seems I can get >great performance (the same or better than the Jabiru 3300) with >relative ease of operation and mainenance, lighter weight, and >comparable price to the Jabiru. I've even found a mechanic that is >near (2 hours away) to my location. However, to the best of my >research, it is still a more complicated engine and drive unit than >the simple low reving Jabiru. It needs pump gas almost always, which >may not be easy to come by during cross country flights. >The Jabiru is the least expensive, most simple design, seems easier to >maintain, and is direct drive. However, it's less proven, heavier and >I can't find any repair facilities in the NY tristate area. >Am I missing any other engine possibilities that could be even a better choice? > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:28:59 AM PST US From: "Alan Burrows" Subject: Europa-List: RE:Brake Oil Seals --> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Burrows" Can anyone help me with finding replacement seals for the parking brake unit on my tri-gear. I was doing an overhaul this weekend and found some of the seals were badly degraded, so as I had the unit in pieces it seemed sensible to replace them all. Also is there a "best way" to refill the system with fluid? I thought the best way was to force brake fluid up through one of the callipers under pressure, thereby pushing the air to the top of the system. This theory falls down however when you notice that there is a hole between the cylinders in the nice shiny piston unit that I thought kept the two brakes on separate systems. So if you fill from one calliper then you will simply force the air down the other as well as up into the master cylinder in the engine bay and it will not be possible to completely purge all the air or am I thinking about this wrongly? Many Thanks Alan ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:36:14 AM PST US From: "Gilles Thesee" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: What engine for my Europa? --> Europa-List message posted by: "Gilles Thesee" > Andy's comments about the Jabiru 3300 installation are very interesting > and informative. John Lawton's comments about the quietness of the Jabiru > installation are provocative, given the 3000RPM takeoff RPM. Andy, would > you happen to have any ideas as to why this is so, and what Jabiru does > to address the observer noise issue? > Here are a few data on the Jabiru 2200 direct from DynAero, the French manufacturer and designer of the MCRs : - They never had any problems with the Jabiru (except one which was covered by warranty) - It is lighter than the 912, which is it's main advantage - It can't really use it's 80 hp due to the high prop RPM (3300 RPM as compared to 2300 for the Rotax) - For the same reasons the observer noise is higher because of the higher tip mach number. - It necessitates a real break in period of 50 h, with mineral oil, adjustments every 5 hours, and much heating. - They have 250 Rotax flying, and only two Jabiru so they don't have much flight experience to date. - They would recommend the Rotax for a private owner and the Jabiru for the flying clubs, who have a Lycoming culture and would keep their familiar landmarks with this "mini Lycoming". Further, flying clubs use the Jabiru powered MCR circa 220 km/h, with a fixed pitch propeller with medium pitch. This setup gives a performance very similar to the familiar Robin DR 400. - DynAero's intentions are to have few Jabiru powered aircraft for the time being, but with high annual flight time (500 h per year) in order to rapidly build experience with the engine. - They have a great faith in this engine. Regards, Gilles Thesee Grenoble, France ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:43:52 AM PST US DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; b=kSyYPx/NvtwnonWRC4/ZRBLTVQshBR4bB/YnGaUhVc/+prqkPH5yUpGRzpMIWhw0jsIDkVrU7nYaaphfvUC12cA/+cf+hEUBc/ypFF+HJP3+9jYXfZGYYrH6nID5G0GpRDZwIvMb3gmYJP8pbdVMleKzr+WZrk+9PwFVfJ2Zxg0Received: by 10.38.15.25 with SMTP id 25mr758431rno; Mon, 08 Nov 2004 10:42:53 -0800 (PST) From: Richard Sementilli Subject: Re: Europa-List: What engine for my Europa? --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Sementilli Thank you for your email. 1. Yes, I've heard about the bumpy starts and stops with the 912S motor. I also heard that the new ones are equipped with a stronger starter motor that powers through the high compression starts, have you heard this? I aslo read another email here on the Europa list that claims wonderful performance even at altitude with the 912S...I'm so confused!!! 2. I intend to fly it mostly on the east coast but I do intend to take it to Lake Tahoe too so I was hoping to get through the mountains with the 912S. I would buy the 914 turbo but I am afraid of the reliability and complexity of the engine. 3. I have never heard about the mixture issue, is that common? 4. Never heard about the gear box wear due to the bumby idle either. Is their any solution to this while still using the 912S? On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 09:53:15 -0800, Terry Seaver wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: Terry Seaver > > Hi Richard, > > You didn't say where you do your flying. If you intend flying at > altitude like we do around the Sierra Nevadas, you might consider the > 914 the best bet. > We have a mono-wheel XS with 912S and Airmaster prop. I would seriously > consider installing the 914 or Jabiru over the 912S, given our > experiences (we have over 400 hours on the plane/engine). > Issues I have with the 912S are: > > 1) It shakes the whole plane when starting and stopping, causing great > stress on any number of componants. Our exhaust system is in constant > need of repair because of this. An ignition wire probably broke because > of this. Standing outside the uncowled engine and watching the extreme > travel of the shaken componants can be a real eye opener. It is not > unusual to see +2G/0G on the panel mounted accelerometer following a > start or stop. I would guess the 912S is worse than the 914 because of > its higher compression. I would expect the Jabiru to be much smoother. > > 2) The 912S is a little anemic at high density altitudes. At 7,000+ > feet the plane has difficulty accelerating past 55 knots on take off > until the gear/flaps are lifted a little. Climb rate at these altitudes > can also be lower than I would like. > > 3) The mixture becomes rich at altitude, negating the fuel economy > advantages of flying at altitude. The 914 is altitude compensating, and > I assume the Jabiru has a mixture control (?). > > 4) Although the Rotax is claimed to have a TBO of 1000 hours or greater > it is recommended that the gearbox be removed and sent in for check out > every 300-400 hours. There have also been suggestions that idling the > 912S down to 1400 rpm can cause damage to the gearbox due to rough > idling. We idle our engine at about 1700-1800 rpm, which make the > landings a little hotter with the additional idle thrust. > > just my two cents worth, > regards, > Terry Seaver > A135 / N135TD > > Richard Sementilli wrote: > > >--> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Sementilli > > > >I am down to 3 choices for an engine for my Europa. > >1. Rotax 912S > >2. Rotax 914 > >3. Jabiru 3300 > > > >I would like to get objective opinions and actual experiences from > >anyone about the pro's and cons of each engine. > >My first choice is the 914 because of the all around performance but > >more than the huge price, I am worried about the complexity of the > >engine as it relates to maintenance and overall reliability. I have > >spoken to a few mechanics for Rotax but none of them have any > >experience with the 914 turbo. They all say to keep it simple and go > >with the 912 or the 3300. I agree but I'm willing to stretch that goal > >if feel that I could handle the burden of its complexity. > >My most probable choice would be the 912S because it seems I can get > >great performance (the same or better than the Jabiru 3300) with > >relative ease of operation and mainenance, lighter weight, and > >comparable price to the Jabiru. I've even found a mechanic that is > >near (2 hours away) to my location. However, to the best of my > >research, it is still a more complicated engine and drive unit than > >the simple low reving Jabiru. It needs pump gas almost always, which > >may not be easy to come by during cross country flights. > >The Jabiru is the least expensive, most simple design, seems easier to > >maintain, and is direct drive. However, it's less proven, heavier and > >I can't find any repair facilities in the NY tristate area. > >Am I missing any other engine possibilities that could be even a better choice? > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:14:58 AM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Europa-List: New Spar Pip-pn --> Europa-List message posted by: "Raimo Toivio" For your information: As you remember my earlier pip-pin disaster, I ordered last Thursday a new pip-pin from www.mcmaster.com and got it today. So it was only four days shipment from the other side of the ball. McMaster-Carr service is exellent. I decided to try part # 93750A720 which is T-Handle Push-Button Quick-Release Pin W/ Lanyard, 1/2" Diameter, 3 1/2" Usable Lenght. Unit Price is 32,32 USA dollars. What I got: It looks exactly like original exept T-handle and lanyard. I think manufacturer is same. The head of the pin is slightly less tapered. All the materials, dimensions and even colours seems to be same. It works just like original do. So far I am happy. Raimo M W Toivio OH-XRT #417 OH-CVK OH-BLL 37500 Lempaala Finland tel + 358 3 3753 777 fax + 358 3 3753 100 gsm + 358 40 590 1450 raimo.toivio@rwm.fi www.rwm.fi ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:08:33 PM PST US From: "Duncan McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: New Spar Pip-pn --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" One pip or two pips? Duncan Mcf. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Europa-List: New Spar Pip-pn > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Raimo Toivio" > > For your information: > > As you remember my earlier pip-pin disaster, > I ordered last Thursday a new pip-pin from > www.mcmaster.com > and got it today. So it was only four days > shipment from the other side of the ball. > McMaster-Carr service is exellent. > > I decided to try part # 93750A720 which is > T-Handle Push-Button Quick-Release Pin > W/ Lanyard, 1/2" Diameter, 3 1/2" Usable > Lenght. > > Unit Price is 32,32 USA dollars. > > What I got: > > It looks exactly like original exept > T-handle and lanyard. I think manufacturer > is same. The head of the pin is slightly less > tapered. All the materials, dimensions and > even colours seems to be same. It works > just like original do. So far I am happy. > > Raimo M W Toivio > > OH-XRT #417 > OH-CVK > OH-BLL > > 37500 Lempaala > Finland > tel + 358 3 3753 777 > fax + 358 3 3753 100 > gsm + 358 40 590 1450 > > raimo.toivio@rwm.fi > www.rwm.fi > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:08:33 PM PST US From: "Duncan McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: What engine for my Europa? --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" The gearbox service interval is the same for both 912 and 912S. So it's not necessarily a function of the high-compression of the "S". In any case, the "S" box is stronger. Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Sementilli" Subject: Re: Europa-List: What engine for my Europa? > --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Sementilli > > Thank you for your email. > 1. Yes, I've heard about the bumpy starts and stops with the 912S > motor. I also heard that the new ones are equipped with a stronger > starter motor that powers through the high compression starts, have > you heard this? I aslo read another email here on the Europa list that > claims wonderful performance even at altitude with the 912S...I'm so > confused!!! > 2. I intend to fly it mostly on the east coast but I do intend to take > it to Lake Tahoe too so I was hoping to get through the mountains with > the 912S. I would buy the 914 turbo but I am afraid of the reliability > and complexity of the engine. > 3. I have never heard about the mixture issue, is that common? > 4. Never heard about the gear box wear due to the bumby idle either. > Is their any solution to this while still using the 912S? > > > On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 09:53:15 -0800, Terry Seaver wrote: > > --> Europa-List message posted by: Terry Seaver > > > > Hi Richard, > > > > You didn't say where you do your flying. If you intend flying at > > altitude like we do around the Sierra Nevadas, you might consider the > > 914 the best bet. > > We have a mono-wheel XS with 912S and Airmaster prop. I would seriously > > consider installing the 914 or Jabiru over the 912S, given our > > experiences (we have over 400 hours on the plane/engine). > > Issues I have with the 912S are: > > > > 1) It shakes the whole plane when starting and stopping, causing great > > stress on any number of componants. Our exhaust system is in constant > > need of repair because of this. An ignition wire probably broke because > > of this. Standing outside the uncowled engine and watching the extreme > > travel of the shaken componants can be a real eye opener. It is not > > unusual to see +2G/0G on the panel mounted accelerometer following a > > start or stop. I would guess the 912S is worse than the 914 because of > > its higher compression. I would expect the Jabiru to be much smoother. > > > > 2) The 912S is a little anemic at high density altitudes. At 7,000+ > > feet the plane has difficulty accelerating past 55 knots on take off > > until the gear/flaps are lifted a little. Climb rate at these altitudes > > can also be lower than I would like. > > > > 3) The mixture becomes rich at altitude, negating the fuel economy > > advantages of flying at altitude. The 914 is altitude compensating, and > > I assume the Jabiru has a mixture control (?). > > > > 4) Although the Rotax is claimed to have a TBO of 1000 hours or greater > > it is recommended that the gearbox be removed and sent in for check out > > every 300-400 hours. There have also been suggestions that idling the > > 912S down to 1400 rpm can cause damage to the gearbox due to rough > > idling. We idle our engine at about 1700-1800 rpm, which make the > > landings a little hotter with the additional idle thrust. > > > > just my two cents worth, > > regards, > > Terry Seaver > > A135 / N135TD > > > > Richard Sementilli wrote: > > > > >--> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Sementilli > > > > > >I am down to 3 choices for an engine for my Europa. > > >1. Rotax 912S > > >2. Rotax 914 > > >3. Jabiru 3300 > > > > > >I would like to get objective opinions and actual experiences from > > >anyone about the pro's and cons of each engine. > > >My first choice is the 914 because of the all around performance but > > >more than the huge price, I am worried about the complexity of the > > >engine as it relates to maintenance and overall reliability. I have > > >spoken to a few mechanics for Rotax but none of them have any > > >experience with the 914 turbo. They all say to keep it simple and go > > >with the 912 or the 3300. I agree but I'm willing to stretch that goal > > >if feel that I could handle the burden of its complexity. > > >My most probable choice would be the 912S because it seems I can get > > >great performance (the same or better than the Jabiru 3300) with > > >relative ease of operation and mainenance, lighter weight, and > > >comparable price to the Jabiru. I've even found a mechanic that is > > >near (2 hours away) to my location. However, to the best of my > > >research, it is still a more complicated engine and drive unit than > > >the simple low reving Jabiru. It needs pump gas almost always, which > > >may not be easy to come by during cross country flights. > > >The Jabiru is the least expensive, most simple design, seems easier to > > >maintain, and is direct drive. However, it's less proven, heavier and > > >I can't find any repair facilities in the NY tristate area. > > >Am I missing any other engine possibilities that could be even a better choice? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:41:10 PM PST US From: "Sidsel & Svein Johnsen" Subject: Europa-List: 912S - cylinder cowl??? --> Europa-List message posted by: "Sidsel & Svein Johnsen" I downloaded Issue 2 of the 912/912S installation manual from the Club's members' section today, to see if it contains any improvements over Issue 1 which came with my Firewall Forward kit in 2001. It does, but it also leaves me quite confused and concerned: On p. 7-3 it says: "The Rotax 912S engine is provided with a glass fibre cowl around the cylinders to ensure that sufficient cooling air reaches them", and then goes on to describe how to make the additional air inlet for this cowl by using a "splash" moulding. My 912S (delivered by Europa in Lakeland in 2001) does NOT have this glass fibre cowl, but the FF kit HAS the splash moulding! The 912S installation instructions from Rotax (came with the engine) does not mention anything regarding the cylinder cowl, and does not show it on any of the engine drawings, either. Can anyone explain this? Do I have an older version of 912S than what Issue 2 of the factory's manual refers to (serial no. 4426924)? Is the cylinder cowl required/recommended? Is it a Rotax part or from Europa? Regards, Svein A225 - now in Norway ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:57:06 PM PST US From: "Peter Rees" Subject: Europa-List: Help - I need a ferry pilot in the UK --> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Rees" Hi Guys Our Europa has finally been converted to a tri gear and will be ready for collection in a couple of days or so. Only problem is, its in Yorkshire and needs to get home to Rochester. I'm not experienced on type and the chances of finding a day with enough VFR wx at this time of year to get from here to Yorkshire, get enough training to be proficient then make the flight home is next to zero. Is there anyone either in the South East or Yorkshire area who would be willing to do me the massive favour of collecting the aeroplane. I would of course arrange for you to get home and compensate you for your time. Failing that, is there anyone in the same areas who may have a tri gear trailer I could borrow from them for a reasonable consideration? Peter ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:23:49 PM PST US From: "Gilles Thesee" Subject: Re: Europa-List: 912S - cylinder cowl??? --> Europa-List message posted by: "Gilles Thesee" > The 912S installation instructions from Rotax (came with the engine) does > not mention anything regarding the cylinder cowl, and does not show it on > any of the engine drawings, either. > > Can anyone explain this? Do I have an older version of 912S than what Issue > 2 of the factory's manual refers to (serial no. 4426924)? Is the cylinder > cowl required/recommended? Is it a Rotax part or from Europa? This "cylinder cowl" is an option from Rotax. You can retrofit it (we did). Regards, Gilles Thesee Grenoble, France ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:26:16 PM PST US From: "Dave Anderson" Subject: Europa-List: Long wings and ratings --> Europa-List message posted by: "Dave Anderson" Long wings glider rating - if you want it to be registered that way with the FAA. Dave A227 Mini U2 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 03:52:04 PM PST US From: JEFF ROBERTS Subject: Re: Europa-List: 912S - cylinder cowl??? --> Europa-List message posted by: JEFF ROBERTS Svein, If I had to do mine al over again I would not have used the splash molding to make the NACA vent on the top. I would have like others brought the intake air up from the bottom NACA inlet that the 914 uses. Some have created a plenum that covers the top of the air box that a 2 inch scat tube can attach too from the lower inlet. The splash molding is unnecessary and if you do want an inlet on the top you can make it easier by simply cutting the opening shape of the inlet but not the forward narrow part. Just push it down about an inch in the back and bid over it from underneath. Thats what flight crafters does. They throw away the splash molding. Which I find amusing as Europa charged me $200 for the thing. I was one of the few that had to receive the FWF parts separate. If you did use the underneath NACA it would allow you to use a bypass valve to draw under the cowl air that could serve as carb heat. A builder in Canada has done this with great results. Hope this helps. Jeff A258 Finished priming all flying services. Stalled now as business is booming. On Nov 8, 2004, at 3:40 PM, Sidsel & Svein Johnsen wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Sidsel & Svein Johnsen" > > > I downloaded Issue 2 of the 912/912S installation manual from the > Club's > members' section today, to see if it contains any improvements over > Issue 1 > which came with my Firewall Forward kit in 2001. It does, but it also > leaves me quite confused and concerned: > > On p. 7-3 it says: "The Rotax 912S engine is provided with a glass > fibre > cowl around the cylinders to ensure that sufficient cooling air reaches > them", and then goes on to describe how to make the additional air > inlet for > this cowl by using a "splash" moulding. My 912S (delivered by Europa > in > Lakeland in 2001) does NOT have this glass fibre cowl, but the FF kit > HAS > the splash moulding! > > The 912S installation instructions from Rotax (came with the engine) > does > not mention anything regarding the cylinder cowl, and does not show it > on > any of the engine drawings, either. > > Can anyone explain this? Do I have an older version of 912S than what > Issue > 2 of the factory's manual refers to (serial no. 4426924)? Is the > cylinder > cowl required/recommended? Is it a Rotax part or from Europa? > > > Regards, > Svein > A225 - now in Norway > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:46:02 PM PST US From: "Kevin Klinefelter" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Long wings and ratings --> Europa-List message posted by: "Kevin Klinefelter" And do you need to also have a "self launch" logbook endorsement ? Kevin -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dave Anderson Subject: Europa-List: Long wings and ratings --> Europa-List message posted by: "Dave Anderson" Long wings glider rating - if you want it to be registered that way with the FAA. Dave A227 Mini U2 --- --- ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:27:42 PM PST US From: "KARL HEINDL" Subject: Re: Europa-List: What engine for my Europa? --> Europa-List message posted by: "KARL HEINDL" Terry, Y ouseem to be badmouthing a perfectly good engine just because you have a problem with yours. Some builders have their 912 S running as smooth as a sewing machine. Mine could be smoother, but then I have not yet done a carb or propeller blade balance. Techniques for smooth startups and shutdowns were discussed in detail recently on this forum. I have no idea about high altitude performance, but one owner claims 914 equivalent performance up to 10,000 feet. The 914 is obviously a better performer at really high altitudes. It should also be kept in mind that early Europa builders did not have the choice of the S model. I have read all the engine discussions and it seems that each type has had reports ranging from awful to wonderful. How is a newcomer supposed to make up his mind ? Karl From: Terry Seaver terrys@cisco.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: What engine for my Europa? -- Europa-List message posted by: Terry Seaver terrys@cisco.com Hi Richard, You didn't say where you do your flying.If you intend flying at altitude like we do around the Sierra Nevadas, you might consider the 914 the best bet. We have a mono-wheel XS with 912S and Airmaster prop.I would seriously consider installing the 914 or Jabiru over the 912S, given our experiences (we have over 400 hours on the plane/engine). Issues I have with the 912S are: 1) It shakes the whole plane when starting and stopping, causing great stress on any number of componants.Our exhaust system is in constant need of repair because of this.An ignition wire probably broke because of this.Standing outside the uncowled engine and watching the extreme travel of the shaken componants can be a real eye opener.It is not unusual to see +2G/0G on the panel mounted accelerometer following a start or stop. I would guess the 912S is worse than the 914 because of its higher compression.I would expect the Jabiru to be much smoother. 2) The 912S is a little anemic at high density altitudes.At 7,000+ feet the plane has difficulty accelerating past 55 knots on take off until the gear/flaps are lifted a little.Climb rate at these altitudes can also be lower than I would like. 3) The mixture becomes rich at altitude, negating the fuel economy advantages of flying at altitude.The 914 is altitude compensating, and I assume the Jabiru has a mixture control (?). 4) Although the Rotax is claimed to have a TBO of 1000 hours or greater it is recommended that the gearbox be removed and sent in for check out every 300-400 hours.There have also been suggestions that idling the 912S down to 1400 rpm can cause damage to the gearbox due to rough idling.We idle our engine at about 1700-1800 rpm, which make the landings a little hotter with the additional idle thrust. just my two cents worth, regards, Terry Seaver A135 / N135TD Richard Sementilli wrote: -- Europa-List message posted by: Richard Sementilli rsementi@gmail.com I am down to 3 choices for an engine for my Europa. 1. Rotax 912S 2. Rotax 914 3. Jabiru 3300 I would like to get objective opinions and actual experiences from anyone about the pro's and cons of each engine. My first choice is the 914 because of the all around performance but more than the huge price, I am worried about the complexity of the engine as it relates to maintenance and overall reliability. I have spoken to a few mechanics for Rotax but none of them have any experience with the 914 turbo. They all say to keep it simple and go with the 912 or the 3300. I agree but I'm willing to stretch that goal iffeel that I could handle the burden of its complexity. My most probable choice would be the 912S because it seems I can get great performance (the same or better than the Jabiru 3300) with relative ease of operation and mainenance, lighter weight, and comparable price to the Jabiru. I've even found a mechanic that is near (2 hours away) to my location. However, to the best of my research, it is still a more complicated engine and drive unit than the simple low reving Jabiru. It needs pump gas almost always, which may not be easy to come by during cross country flights. The Jabiru is the least expensive, most simple design, seems easier to maintain, and is direct drive. However, it's less proven, heavier and I can't find any repair facilities in the NY tristate area. Am I missing any other engine possibilities that could be even a better choice? ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:42:11 PM PST US From: Paul Boulet Subject: Europa-List: my first flight --> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Boulet My dear friends; Well it finally happened...the test pilot of my beautiful airplane project turned the controls over to me and I flew for the first time on Saturday,November 6th. It was a beautiful day at the Mesa, Arizona airport (called Falcon field) with high clouds and a gentle breeze. Temperatures were near perfect at about 73 degrees. The Commemorative Air Force (used to be called the Confederate Air Force- they restore and maintain flying WWII type aircraft) was having a big event in celebration of Veterans day so there were many interesting aircraft flying about the field that day. We took off and climbed out to the East about 3,000 feet above ground level. I practiced learning my new Grand Rapids EIS (which I don't recommend) and also how this airplane would handle. I practiced some aerobatic maneuvers- stalls, spins, aileron rolls, wingovers, and barrel rolls. Apparently the aerobatics loosened some "chaff" that was in the plastic fuel tank. We had taken pains to flush this system out completely but apparently this is almost impossible to do. We had changed the fuel filters just before flight and found little debris in them so thought we had no problem. In any event, the fuel pressure starting fluctuating wildly swinging closer and closer to zero. We turned on a second fuel pump (called a boost pump) to increase fuel pressure through the filters. This helped marginally but the pressure continued to drop. We knew we could not make it back to Falcon field so started looking for an alternative and found one called Williams Gateway airport (an old military base). It was 9 miles away and as we started there we reduced power (to reduce fuel demands on the engine). The plane was running roughly by this time and even quit entirely a couple of times. Fortunately our high airspeed in this wonderful plane caused the prop to windmill a nd re-start by itself almost immediately. We landed with no further incident. A call to our mechanics showed that the fuel filters had not been installed in tandem but had mistakenly been installed to separate gas tanks (a main tank and an auxiliary). While on the ground we switched to the auxiliary tank and the fuel pressure jumped to full without a problem. You might wonder why we didn't do this in the air. The reason is that since the aux tank rarely gets used any sort of debris tends to collect there. Therefore if you're having a problem with pressure, switching tanks may make the situation worse. We prepared to fly back to Falcon Field however another sad event occurred. A pilot with a Piper Super Cub (an old tail dragger style plane from the 1940's but still in production- you may have seen them- they are nearly always painted bright yellow) was carrying a passenger- one of the spectators from the Veterans Day show- and as he took off, he climbed faster than the plane was designed for. The result was a stall/spin into the ground smashing into a military plane called an "Albatross." It killed both pilot and passenger while destroying both aircraft. The airport was closed for the remainder of the day. We called our mechanics again and they brought out a trailer to pick us up. My stomach was a bit sore after all this excitement but as someone once said, "walking a tightrope is living, everything else is just waiting." Thanks for sharing in my thoughts about this wonderful adventure of life we are on, Your friend, Paul Boulet, N914PB, Malibu, California ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:43:18 PM PST US From: "Sidsel & Svein Johnsen" Subject: SV: Europa-List: 912S - cylinder cowl??? --> Europa-List message posted by: "Sidsel & Svein Johnsen" Gilles, Thank you for your quick response: >>This "cylinder cowl" is an option from Rotax. You can retrofit it (we did).<< - Did you retrofit it before first flight, or later because you experienced high cyl. head temperatures? - Is it easy to retrofit? Jeff, - and thanks to you, too, for the recommendation re. the NACA inlet on top, to the air box. Regards, Svein A225 - now in Norway