---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 11/10/04: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:26 AM - kit still for sale (Runnymede73@aol.com) 2. 05:48 AM - Re: Europa provided adjustable NACA cabin vents (EuropaXSA276@aol.com) 3. 09:26 AM - Re: Europa provided adjustable NACA cabin vents (Aircraft Spruce) 4. 12:22 PM - Fw: Europa Aircraft 2004 Service (Jac van Heeswijk) 5. 12:26 PM - Re: Europa provided adjustable NACA cabin vents (RoddyEuropa@aol.com) 6. 01:45 PM - Re: New Spar Pip-pn (Raimo Toivio) 7. 02:35 PM - Re: What engine for my Europa? (bryan allsop) 8. 04:29 PM - Mono Master Cylinder Cost (Tony Renshaw) 9. 05:52 PM - Re: What engine for my Europa? (Richard Sementilli) 10. 06:31 PM - Re: What engine for my Europa? (Tony Krzyzewski) 11. 07:19 PM - Re: Re: What engine for my Europa? (Andy Silvester) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:26:42 AM PST US From: Runnymede73@aol.com Subject: Europa-List: kit still for sale --> Europa-List message posted by: Runnymede73@aol.com Due to other commitments I have need to sell my XS monowheel Kit. All the flying surfaces have been professionally built but not filled. The wings are complete but not covered and the cockpit module is finished but not Reduxed in to the 'canoe' lower fuselage. The windscreen and panels are clear for safety reasons. Some work has been carried out to alter the kit to a so called 'taildragger' but this is minimal and can easily be reversed. Full inventory. No engine. Over =A318,000 invested + professional fees. Make an offer. The new factory kits will soon be more expensive. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:48:04 AM PST US From: EuropaXSA276@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa provided adjustable NACA cabin vents --> Europa-List message posted by: EuropaXSA276@aol.com Hi Steve: The NACA vent supplied by Europe have been discontinued. These were one of a handful of parts the were backorder on my original shipment. I can tell you the consensus is the they are pretty much garbage. In fact many builders have offered to send me their vents gratis! Usually a very bad sign... My understanding is that Spruce has these vents if you are dead set at repair and not replacement. Best to buy a few. They break often. Tailwinds Brian S A276 Tri Gear. Texas See my build photos at: http://forum.okhuijsen.org/BrianS ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:26:51 AM PST US DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=HYq5jV1g2ZkzxjGPfrLZMK42WcKgySn689+8o+C2EzH5qrlBaQUNBQ+urfEVxL/ZLHXAKj5CBU7gqNdhIkG1Zd/kA64q+ZfYSr1PzDsg2ke5847St/fmWvvg4JxOq2GAOuZQpOia8/AWCMM1d796zfgp2pplLu2MZlEhJeNqcAs= ; From: Aircraft Spruce Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa provided adjustable NACA cabin vents --> Europa-List message posted by: Aircraft Spruce Part numbers from Aircraft Spruce. These are similar to the old 01-30500 which are now no longer available. 05-01445 NACA AIR INLET SCOOP ABS $56.70 Black 05-01446 NACA AIR INLET KIT LEXAN $89.95 Clear 05-00774 NACA AIR INLET SCOOP FIBERLGLS $53.75 White Page 185 of the 2004-2005 catalog. You can call 877-477-7823 for further info. Regards, Renee Gelinas Michael Grass wrote: --> Europa-List message posted by: "Michael Grass" Hi Steve try page 183 P/N 01-30500 $22.95 Adjustable NACA Air Scoop from the 2003-2004 catalog. Michael Grass A266 Trigear Detroit, MI CM bonded in Working (again) on the tailplane Wings not started yet ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Crimm" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa provided adjustable NACA cabin vents > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Steve Crimm" > > Having searched Aircraft Spruce's web site and print catalog I haven't seen > a NACA vent that is adjustable. If someone knows the part number that might > help. The last thing I want to do is replace the vent. Coming to think of > it, it probably won't happen... > > Anyone ever repaired them? > > Steve > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tony Krzyzewski > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa provided adjustable NACA cabin vents > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Tony Krzyzewski" > > > >>> I'm fairly sure that Aircraft Spruce sells this exact vent. > > They do... And they break just as easily! > > Tony > > > advertising on the Matronics Forums. > > --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:22:55 PM PST US From: "Jac van Heeswijk" Subject: Fw: Europa-List: Europa Aircraft 2004 Service --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jac van Heeswijk" The way the three gentlemen in Kirkbymoorside are acting gives me a good feeling with respect to the future of Europa(04). Some weeks ago I called with John and I ordered a complete firewall forward kit plus a complete speed kit, to be collected after three weeks. Yesterday was the day. They gave me an absolute cordial welcome there and today I returned back in the Netherlands with everything flawless aboard. Good work John, Andy, Roger! And a special thank you to Andy for the extensive and practical advise he gave me in the meantime on all my technical questions. I really felt back home again there, like in the earlier days (the VERY earlier days I mean!). Jack van Heeswijk, 394 tri (Engine and upholstery still to do, hope to fly next summer). (And also considering myself a satisfied customer, they really do good work!) ----- Original Message ----- From: "N55XS" Subject: Europa-List: Europa Aircraft 2004 Service > --> Europa-List message posted by: N55XS > > Just wanted to share my experience. Just recently, I contacted John > Wheeler at Europa to order a few parts. John was quick to respond to my > inquiries, providing availability and pricing, including shipping > costs. I ordered a few of the lighter parts and had them shipped > airmail, to the USA. They arrived in just over a week. I've got to > hand it to the new company. They're doing everything they can to make > it a going concern, again. > > My genuine thanks to John and the new Europa staff for all their > efforts. Consider me a satisfied customer... > > -- > Jeff - A055 > Builders Log: http://www.N55XS.com > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:26:47 PM PST US From: RoddyEuropa@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa provided adjustable NACA cabin vents --> Europa-List message posted by: RoddyEuropa@aol.com I repaired mine, and the repair has held good. Take one of the large, load spreading washers, and countersink the hole with a large drill bit. Then put a countersunk machine screw (3/16 or 5 mm) though the washer and weld the two together - so you end up with a machine screw with a huge flat head. Grind the head flat if needed. Screw it into the plastic opening knob - it will cut its own thread. Get an adhesive pad - the type designed to stick a rear view mirror onto a car windscreen, and stick it to the the washer. And then re-assemble vent, and turn the knob until the vent is closed. The washer will stick to the vent, and you now have the same mechanism as before, but with a steel shaft. Probably harder to explain than to do! Roddy Kesterton #220 In a message dated 09/11/2004 23:50:35 GMT Standard Time, steve.crimm@stephenscott.com writes: --> Europa-List message posted by: "Steve Crimm" Flight, In the XS that I recently purchased it has NACA vents, on each side of the cabin for fresh air, that were provided by Europa with the kit. These vents have an adjustment screw that allows for the opening and closing of a little flap for the vent. Well here is the problem, one of the adjustment parts, the screw shaft, is broken so it is either wide open or closed by stuffing something against the flap to hold it closed. Has anyone in out worldwide family had this same problem? And has anyone, who is really creative, been able to repair this type of vent issue? And does anyone know who the manufacture of the adjustable vent might be? Thanks, Steve Crimm N15JN A058 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:45:02 PM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: New Spar Pip-pn --> Europa-List message posted by: "Raimo Toivio" Duncan, Sorry, my missunderstanding! Of course my MacMaster pip-pin has two pips! Just like Fred wrote. Raimo ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred R. Klein" Subject: Re: Europa-List: New Spar Pip-pn > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred R. Klein" > > > >> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" > >> > >> > >> One pip or two pips? > >> > >> Duncan Mcf. > > Duncan, > > A couple of months ago when we all had at this issue, in my checking of the > McMaster catalogue showed me that each pin had 2 pips...i.e., 2 pips > opposite oneanother. FYI, McMaster also sells a line of heavier duty pins > which have 2 rows of 2 pips each. > > Fred > A194 > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:35:09 PM PST US From: "bryan allsop" Subject: Re: Europa-List: What engine for my Europa? --> Europa-List message posted by: "bryan allsop" Richard, The 912s is a good match for the Europa. With a well balanced prop and the tiniest bit of management, it runs nicely, and starts and stops without fuss. Unless you want to fly above 7000 feet a lot, why add the extra cost, weight, and complexity to a beautifull combination? A wobbly prop will add 20 pound weight, two or three thousand pounds cash, an extra log book etc., but will give you more performance than you will ever really need for a Mono with the average grass strip. Hope this helps. Cheers Bryan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Sementilli" Subject: Re: Europa-List: What engine for my Europa? > --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Sementilli > > So then, Karl, where can I find the information about how to make the > 912S run as smooth as a sewing machine? > > As a newcomer, I am still confused but overall, I have been getting > more positive feedback vs. negative feedback. Plus, I asked for > objective observations and actual experience with the 912S. I think > Terry is simply stating his experiences. Hopefully we'll all learn how > to get the engine to run smoother than he is experiencing. > > Does anyone out there have any suggestions or solutions to the rough > start/stop and idle of the 912 S? > > Thanks to all, > Richard > > > On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 02:26:04 +0000, KARL HEINDL wrote: > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "KARL HEINDL" > > > > Terry, > > > > Y ouseem to be badmouthing a perfectly good engine just because you have a problem with yours. Some builders have their 912 S running as smooth as a sewing machine. Mine could be smoother, but then I have not yet done a carb or propeller blade balance. Techniques for smooth startups and shutdowns were discussed in detail recently on this forum. I have no idea about high altitude performance, but one owner claims 914 equivalent performance up to 10,000 feet. The 914 is obviously a better performer at really high altitudes. It should also be kept in mind that early Europa builders did not have the choice of the S model. > > > > I have read all the engine discussions and it seems that each type has had reports ranging from awful to wonderful. How is a newcomer supposed to make up his mind ? > > > > Karl > > > > From: Terry Seaver terrys@cisco.com > > To: europa-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Re: Europa-List: What engine for my Europa? > > Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 09:53:15 -0800 > > > > -- Europa-List message posted by: Terry Seaver terrys@cisco.com > > > > > > > > Hi Richard, > > > > You didn't say where you do your flying.If you intend flying at > > altitude like we do around the Sierra Nevadas, you might consider the > > 914 the best bet. > > We have a mono-wheel XS with 912S and Airmaster prop.I would seriously > > consider installing the 914 or Jabiru over the 912S, given our > > experiences (we have over 400 hours on the plane/engine). > > Issues I have with the 912S are: > > > > 1) It shakes the whole plane when starting and stopping, causing great > > stress on any number of componants.Our exhaust system is in constant > > need of repair because of this.An ignition wire probably broke because > > of this.Standing outside the uncowled engine and watching the extreme > > travel of the shaken componants can be a real eye opener.It is not > > unusual to see +2G/0G on the panel mounted accelerometer following a > > start or stop. I would guess the 912S is worse than the 914 because of > > its higher compression.I would expect the Jabiru to be much smoother. > > > > 2) The 912S is a little anemic at high density altitudes.At 7,000+ > > feet the plane has difficulty accelerating past 55 knots on take off > > until the gear/flaps are lifted a little.Climb rate at these altitudes > > can also be lower than I would like. > > > > 3) The mixture becomes rich at altitude, negating the fuel economy > > advantages of flying at altitude.The 914 is altitude compensating, and > > I assume the Jabiru has a mixture control (?). > > > > 4) Although the Rotax is claimed to have a TBO of 1000 hours or greater > > it is recommended that the gearbox be removed and sent in for check out > > every 300-400 hours.There have also been suggestions that idling the > > 912S down to 1400 rpm can cause damage to the gearbox due to rough > > idling.We idle our engine at about 1700-1800 rpm, which make the > > landings a little hotter with the additional idle thrust. > > > > just my two cents worth, > > regards, > > Terry Seaver > > A135 / N135TD > > > > Richard Sementilli wrote: > > > > -- Europa-List message posted by: Richard Sementilli rsementi@gmail.com > > > > I am down to 3 choices for an engine for my Europa. > > 1. Rotax 912S > > 2. Rotax 914 > > 3. Jabiru 3300 > > > > I would like to get objective opinions and actual experiences from > > anyone about the pro's and cons of each engine. > > My first choice is the 914 because of the all around performance but > > more than the huge price, I am worried about the complexity of the > > engine as it relates to maintenance and overall reliability. I have > > spoken to a few mechanics for Rotax but none of them have any > > experience with the 914 turbo. They all say to keep it simple and go > > with the 912 or the 3300. I agree but I'm willing to stretch that goal > > iffeel that I could handle the burden of its complexity. > > > > > > My most probable choice would be the 912S because it seems I can get > > great performance (the same or better than the Jabiru 3300) with > > relative ease of operation and mainenance, lighter weight, and > > comparable price to the Jabiru. I've even found a mechanic that is > > near (2 hours away) to my location. However, to the best of my > > research, it is still a more complicated engine and drive unit than > > the simple low reving Jabiru. It needs pump gas almost always, which > > may not be easy to come by during cross country flights. > > The Jabiru is the least expensive, most simple design, seems easier to > > maintain, and is direct drive. However, it's less proven, heavier and > > I can't find any repair facilities in the NY tristate area. > > Am I missing any other engine possibilities that could be even a better choice? > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:29:50 PM PST US From: Tony Renshaw Subject: Europa-List: Mono Master Cylinder Cost --> Europa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw Gidday, I have a friend wanting to purchase my master cylinder and I am wondering if anyone knows how much they are worth, or who manufactures them please??? Reg Tony Renshaw Sydney Australia Classic 236 B.B. Taildragger Currently working on Rudder Pedals, In but tight so more work to go on them. Tail, Wings, Ailerons, Flaps Complete and Connected Lower Fuse in Jig, Tail Torque Tube installed with temporary timber dowels. Mass Balance assembly installed and deflections sorted Roof Panel between doors completed. Photos at: http://forum.okhuijsen.org/TonyR Intended Engine: 912S CS prop (model undecided) Instrumentation: Garmin 296 Colour GPS beneath an electronic Artificial Horizon, one that I can trust for short periods IMC, to get out of a sticky situation ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:52:55 PM PST US DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; b=BFpnTQ77r2siJONHjPsMAlLbsuiDTlQb5rk8e/XtUs4jk78pyuJP+zAFwTdh65U78ckHB2mWSS8hMb7K1Ic3+6gGz0e4ODU6I+yk3DymYvL/a5aIw2UlZt2E3IPrclVsrPhd9A9o6nSyZbiqpSUTrQCE7xHgBjQLKMqgpMSErPQReceived: by 10.38.82.80 with SMTP id f80mr491415rnb; Wed, 10 Nov 2004 17:52:15 -0800 (PST) From: Richard Sementilli Subject: Re: Europa-List: What engine for my Europa? --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Sementilli whats a wobbly prop? On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 22:34:47 -0000, bryan allsop wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: "bryan allsop" > > Richard, > > The 912s is a good match for the Europa. With a well balanced prop and the > tiniest bit of management, it runs nicely, and starts and stops without > fuss. Unless you want to fly above 7000 feet a lot, why add the extra cost, > weight, and complexity to a beautifull combination? > A wobbly prop will add 20 pound weight, two or three thousand pounds cash, > an extra log book etc., but will give you more performance than you will > ever really need for a Mono with the average grass strip. > > Hope this helps. Cheers Bryan > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Richard Sementilli" > To: > Subject: Re: Europa-List: What engine for my Europa? > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Sementilli > > > > So then, Karl, where can I find the information about how to make the > > 912S run as smooth as a sewing machine? > > > > As a newcomer, I am still confused but overall, I have been getting > > more positive feedback vs. negative feedback. Plus, I asked for > > objective observations and actual experience with the 912S. I think > > Terry is simply stating his experiences. Hopefully we'll all learn how > > to get the engine to run smoother than he is experiencing. > > > > Does anyone out there have any suggestions or solutions to the rough > > start/stop and idle of the 912 S? > > > > Thanks to all, > > Richard > > > > > > On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 02:26:04 +0000, KARL HEINDL wrote: > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "KARL HEINDL" > > > > > > Terry, > > > > > > Y ouseem to be badmouthing a perfectly good engine just because you have > a problem with yours. Some builders have their 912 S running as smooth as a > sewing machine. Mine could be smoother, but then I have not yet done a carb > or propeller blade balance. Techniques for smooth startups and shutdowns > were discussed in detail recently on this forum. I have no idea about high > altitude performance, but one owner claims 914 equivalent performance up to > 10,000 feet. The 914 is obviously a better performer at really high > altitudes. It should also be kept in mind that early Europa builders did not > have the choice of the S model. > > > > > > I have read all the engine discussions and it seems that each type has > had reports ranging from awful to wonderful. How is a newcomer supposed to > make up his mind ? > > > > > > Karl > > > > > > From: Terry Seaver terrys@cisco.com > > > To: europa-list@matronics.com > > > Subject: Re: Europa-List: What engine for my Europa? > > > Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 09:53:15 -0800 > > > > > > -- Europa-List message posted by: Terry Seaver terrys@cisco.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Richard, > > > > > > You didn't say where you do your flying.If you intend flying at > > > altitude like we do around the Sierra Nevadas, you might consider the > > > 914 the best bet. > > > We have a mono-wheel XS with 912S and Airmaster prop.I would seriously > > > consider installing the 914 or Jabiru over the 912S, given our > > > experiences (we have over 400 hours on the plane/engine). > > > Issues I have with the 912S are: > > > > > > 1) It shakes the whole plane when starting and stopping, causing great > > > stress on any number of componants.Our exhaust system is in constant > > > need of repair because of this.An ignition wire probably broke because > > > of this.Standing outside the uncowled engine and watching the extreme > > > travel of the shaken componants can be a real eye opener.It is not > > > unusual to see +2G/0G on the panel mounted accelerometer following a > > > start or stop. I would guess the 912S is worse than the 914 because of > > > its higher compression.I would expect the Jabiru to be much smoother. > > > > > > 2) The 912S is a little anemic at high density altitudes.At 7,000+ > > > feet the plane has difficulty accelerating past 55 knots on take off > > > until the gear/flaps are lifted a little.Climb rate at these altitudes > > > can also be lower than I would like. > > > > > > 3) The mixture becomes rich at altitude, negating the fuel economy > > > advantages of flying at altitude.The 914 is altitude compensating, and > > > I assume the Jabiru has a mixture control (?). > > > > > > 4) Although the Rotax is claimed to have a TBO of 1000 hours or greater > > > it is recommended that the gearbox be removed and sent in for check out > > > every 300-400 hours.There have also been suggestions that idling the > > > 912S down to 1400 rpm can cause damage to the gearbox due to rough > > > idling.We idle our engine at about 1700-1800 rpm, which make the > > > landings a little hotter with the additional idle thrust. > > > > > > just my two cents worth, > > > regards, > > > Terry Seaver > > > A135 / N135TD > > > > > > Richard Sementilli wrote: > > > > > > -- Europa-List message posted by: Richard Sementilli rsementi@gmail.com > > > > > > I am down to 3 choices for an engine for my Europa. > > > 1. Rotax 912S > > > 2. Rotax 914 > > > 3. Jabiru 3300 > > > > > > I would like to get objective opinions and actual experiences from > > > anyone about the pro's and cons of each engine. > > > My first choice is the 914 because of the all around performance but > > > more than the huge price, I am worried about the complexity of the > > > engine as it relates to maintenance and overall reliability. I have > > > spoken to a few mechanics for Rotax but none of them have any > > > experience with the 914 turbo. They all say to keep it simple and go > > > with the 912 or the 3300. I agree but I'm willing to stretch that goal > > > iffeel that I could handle the burden of its complexity. > > > > > > > > > > > My most probable choice would be the 912S because it seems I can get > > > great performance (the same or better than the Jabiru 3300) with > > > relative ease of operation and mainenance, lighter weight, and > > > comparable price to the Jabiru. I've even found a mechanic that is > > > near (2 hours away) to my location. However, to the best of my > > > research, it is still a more complicated engine and drive unit than > > > the simple low reving Jabiru. It needs pump gas almost always, which > > > may not be easy to come by during cross country flights. > > > The Jabiru is the least expensive, most simple design, seems easier to > > > maintain, and is direct drive. However, it's less proven, heavier and > > > I can't find any repair facilities in the NY tristate area. > > > Am I missing any other engine possibilities that could be even a better > choice? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:31:08 PM PST US Subject: RE: Europa-List: What engine for my Europa? From: "Tony Krzyzewski" --> Europa-List message posted by: "Tony Krzyzewski" >> whats a wobbly prop? Constant Speed (or variable pitch) prop. It's lovely thing, - about as useful as a gearbox on a car. Tony ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:19:29 PM PST US From: "Andy Silvester" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: What engine for my Europa? --> Europa-List message posted by: "Andy Silvester" Gilles and others, Thanks for the feedback. As for perceived noise levels for the Jabiru engine, I can't really offer an explanation as to why it's so quiet! I think you are expecting the PROPELLER to be noisy due to tip speed at the higher (than Rotax) peak-rpm speed. Again, with the right prop, this is not an issue. Jabiru make props at 60" diameter, and admittedly without personally doing the calcs, the tip speed is around 0.75 mach (ok, prove me wrong!). In any event, a noisy Jabiru engine is rare, and ALWAYS is due to the propeller selection and it's interference with the airframe, as in the case of pushers. We have (as John says) a quiet propeller in the warp drive / Airmaster combination. Those fitting Warp Drive props to pusher installations (Titan, etc), get much more propeller noise. With Jabiru's standard wood prop on their aircraft, a level of 62dB(A) is easily achieved when measuring a 1000' flypast at full throttle, measured on the ground. This meets the German standards for aircraft noise which are, I believe, pretty stringent. To summarise, there is no 'generic' issue with propeller rpm and noise on the Jabiru engine - it's all about the installation. I'll also try to clarify your points about break-in and maintenance. The Jabiru has a simple valve-gear, with tappet / valve clearance adjustment needed at 50-hour intervals. However, with a new engine it is important to check these adjustments more frequently in the early stages of operation. We recommend checks at 5, 10, 15 and 25 hours, then 50, and at 50-hour intervals. Doing these checks tells owners many important things about their engine's break-in phase: poor cooling shows-up inside the valve chambers as burned oil deposits, the lack of oil in the valve gear would indicate a supply problem, the 'movement' of head torque values over a period indicates head overheating, and similarly valve clearances changing over a period of time can indicate heating issues. Admittedly, such signs were somewhat more common in earlier engines (over 4 years ago), but nowadays it is certainly the exception to witness these tell-tale signs at any stage in the engine's life. Nevertheless, we still feel it is important to do the checks, and the confidence gained in a well-running engine that has started its life in good health is very important. The adjustments can all be completed in less than half an hour, and I have never heard of owners complaining about the process. It's seen as a more of a health-check than a maintenance chore. I hope to have answered the points raised. Andy Silvester Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc. 2003 Mainsail Drive Naples, FL 34114 Tel: (239) 394 6800 Fax: (239) 394 0726 www.suncoastjabiru.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: What engine for my Europa? --> Europa-List message posted by: "Gilles Thesee" > Andy's comments about the Jabiru 3300 installation are very interesting > and informative. John Lawton's comments about the quietness of the Jabiru > installation are provocative, given the 3000RPM takeoff RPM. Andy, would > you happen to have any ideas as to why this is so, and what Jabiru does > to address the observer noise issue? > Here are a few data on the Jabiru 2200 direct from DynAero, the French manufacturer and designer of the MCRs : - They never had any problems with the Jabiru (except one which was covered by warranty) - It is lighter than the 912, which is it's main advantage - It can't really use it's 80 hp due to the high prop RPM (3300 RPM as compared to 2300 for the Rotax) - For the same reasons the observer noise is higher because of the higher tip mach number. - It necessitates a real break in period of 50 h, with mineral oil, adjustments every 5 hours, and much heating. - They have 250 Rotax flying, and only two Jabiru so they don't have much flight experience to date. - They would recommend the Rotax for a private owner and the Jabiru for the flying clubs, who have a Lycoming culture and would keep their familiar landmarks with this "mini Lycoming". Further, flying clubs use the Jabiru powered MCR circa 220 km/h, with a fixed pitch propeller with medium pitch. This setup gives a performance very similar to the familiar Robin DR 400. - DynAero's intentions are to have few Jabiru powered aircraft for the time being, but with high annual flight time (500 h per year) in order to rapidly build experience with the engine. - They have a great faith in this engine. Regards, Gilles Thesee Grenoble, France