---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 11/20/04: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:36 AM - Re: Brake trouble (Richard Holder) 2. 03:51 AM - Re: Europa-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 11/19/04 (Graham Singleton) 3. 04:37 AM - Bonding CS14 Brackets to Fuselage sides (Graham Singleton) 4. 04:59 AM - Fuel filter isolation; question for UK builders (Dave Cope) 5. 07:20 AM - Re: Re: Europa-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 11/19/04 (Paul Boulet) 6. 09:16 AM - Re: Fuel filter isolation; question for UK builders (M.J. Gregory) 7. 12:05 PM - Re: Fuel filter isolation; question for UK builders (Brian Davies) 8. 12:10 PM - [PLEASE READ] More What Listers Are Saying... (Matt Dralle) 9. 01:46 PM - Fitting Cowl (Dean Seitz) 10. 02:48 PM - Re: Fuel filter isolation; question for UK builders (Roger Anderson) 11. 03:17 PM - Re: Fitting Cowl (Paul McAllister) 12. 04:46 PM - Re: Fitting Cowl () 13. 06:53 PM - Re: Fitting Cowl (SPurpura@aol.com) 14. 07:09 PM - Re: Re:Paint opinion (Fergus Kyle) 15. 07:13 PM - articulated sticks (Robert T. Stone) 16. 07:45 PM - Re: Fitting Cowl (Kevin Klinefelter) 17. 09:43 PM - Re: Fitting Cowl (JEFF ROBERTS) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:36:13 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Brake trouble From: Richard Holder --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder >> I have decided to go Automotive - thanks to the help of Ivor Phillips of >> this List. I had already messed up (testing) my master cylinder seals with >> ATF so he provided me with new seals for the master cylinder, the callipers >> and the Matco parking brake valve all to work with Automotive brake fluid - >> I will be using DOT 5.1 >> I will increase the power of the internal spring a little by putting in a >> flattened spring washer (maybe 1.5 mm thick) into each bore before the >> spring ( which is followed by the piston ... Etc. I will be sure that the >> spring washer is nice and clean ! >> >> Richard >> >> >> >> > Richard, > > Do you have specifications for the seals that you used? Or better yet, > manufacturer and part numbers? Thanks, Jeff Sorry I don't. As I said Ivor sent me a set of seals. He is on the list but his direct email address is "ivor.phillips" And I haven't used them yet ! Contact him direct for lots of helpful advice. He is in London but I don't see the Atlantic as a barrier for seals ! Richard Richard F.W. Holder 01279 842804 (POTS) Bell House, Bell Lane, 01279 842942 (fax) Widford, Ware, Herts, 07860 367423 (mobile) SG12 8SH email : rholder@avnet.co.uk Europa Classic Tri-gear : G-OWWW, High Cross PA-28-181 : Piper Archer : G-JANA, EGSG (Stapleford) ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:51:17 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 11/19/04 --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton At 23:56 19/11/2004 -0800, you wrote: >my trip to Australia > >--> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Boulet > >Hi All; >are there are builders/flyers in Australia? I'll be >in Sydney November 28 for a few days, then renting a >car driving up to Brisbane and eventually to Cairnes. >It'll be me and my two buddies....would love to hook >up with a fellow Europaphile and swap stories and >maybe a beer Paul yes there are. Tony Renshaw, Mal McClure, Kingsley Hurst, Lance Sandford, several in Melbourne and a couple in Perth that I know of. When you get to Cairns you should make a point of going on the Ocean Pacific big (very ) sailing catamaran and diving on the Gt Barrier Reef. Fantastic experience. If you don't scuba get some pool training first then go do it! Aussie people are just as hospitable as Californians. Graham ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:37:55 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Europa-List: Bonding CS14 Brackets to Fuselage sides --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton At 23:56 19/11/2004 -0800, you wrote: >--> Europa-List message posted by: NevEyre@aol.com > >Hi John, >All is well in deepest Yorkshire [ apart from the bl**dy Yorkshiremen !] >Aeropoxy is fine over fibreglass / wood / steel. It works well over Alloy, >just my personal preference to put Redux over alloy. >Cheers, >Nev. Nev Alodine gives very good bonding, it etches the surface so the epoxy (Redux is an epoxy with ground elastomer for crack stopping,I know you already know that btw) can get into the surface microscopically Alodining needs to be done with proper chemical cleanliness, start with the Boeing water test, a drop of water on the surface should spread out flat, not form a droplet. Then heat the part in hot water before dipping in the alodine for a couple of minutes. Graham ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:59:23 AM PST US From: "Dave Cope" Subject: Europa-List: Fuel filter isolation; question for UK builders --> Europa-List message posted by: "Dave Cope" Doe anyone have a PFA approved mod which has isolation valves either side of the fuel filters, and are prepared to share the details with me? I don't relish the prospect of having to drain the tank in order to service the filters. Thanks in advance for any suggestions, Dave Cope #340 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:20:47 AM PST US DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=K/8AM7XkxUrt9Lp1jB4xi/yJYbNtqNVdZ13eiX11ix1ZjzV1N7d3WWI/HH3WbMt1q4U68KUTsQk6vMtGsPvrx5R5XnIrPtFQwue4L6QzdQ4do8U+IvcIaq8RiLz81Z7UHzXq0LA+f/O3LEXXCJHgvkvcdiisv9PxK17sGqI21Pg= ; From: Paul Boulet Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 11/19/04 --> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Boulet Thanks Graham...yes I'm certified diver and very much looking forward to this adventure! I hear the Aussie women are beautiful too (duh)! Paul Graham Singleton wrote: --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton At 23:56 19/11/2004 -0800, you wrote: >my trip to Australia > >--> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Boulet > >Hi All; >are there are builders/flyers in Australia? I'll be >in Sydney November 28 for a few days, then renting a >car driving up to Brisbane and eventually to Cairnes. >It'll be me and my two buddies....would love to hook >up with a fellow Europaphile and swap stories and >maybe a beer Paul yes there are. Tony Renshaw, Mal McClure, Kingsley Hurst, Lance Sandford, several in Melbourne and a couple in Perth that I know of. When you get to Cairns you should make a point of going on the Ocean Pacific big (very ) sailing catamaran and diving on the Gt Barrier Reef. Fantastic experience. If you don't scuba get some pool training first then go do it! Aussie people are just as hospitable as Californians. Graham ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:16:10 AM PST US From: "M.J. Gregory" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel filter isolation; question for UK builders --> Europa-List message posted by: "M.J. Gregory" The normal solution is to use hose clamps, unless you've got rigid pipes. Mike Doe anyone have a PFA approved mod which has isolation valves either side of the fuel filters, and are prepared to share the details with me? I don't relish the prospect of having to drain the tank in order to service the filters. Thanks in advance for any suggestions, Dave Cope #340 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:05:07 PM PST US From: "Brian Davies" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel filter isolation; question for UK builders --> Europa-List message posted by: "Brian Davies" Dave, I have installed isolation valves on the tank side of each filter. I e mailed Francis Donaldson asking if a mod had already been approved for this and he did not answer the question but suggested the Europa Club prepare a club mod if this was something that a number of people wanted to do. I have not taken any action on this yet. Brian Davies kit 454- XS Mono, still being painted. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Cope" Subject: Europa-List: Fuel filter isolation; question for UK builders > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Dave Cope" > > Doe anyone have a PFA approved mod which has isolation valves either side of the fuel filters, and are prepared to share the details with me? > I don't relish the prospect of having to drain the tank in order to service the filters. > Thanks in advance for any suggestions, > Dave Cope > #340 > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:10:13 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Europa-List: [PLEASE READ] More What Listers Are Saying... --> Europa-List message posted by: Matt Dralle Dear Listers, We are nearing the end of this year's List Fund Raiser and I wanted to share a few more of the really nice things members have been saying about what the Lists mean to them. Please take a minute to read over a few of the wonderful comments below and feel free to make a Contribution to support your lists as well. There are some nifty gifts to be had this year too, so hurry and sign up for your's today!! The List Contribution Web Site can be found at: http://www.matronics.com/contribution I want to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution already this year! It is your generosity that keeps these Lists up and running. THANK YOU! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ----------- Lot's More of "What Listers Are Saying" ------------ Flexible, easy to use, fast, technically superior, and absolutely SPAM-free. Incredible! -Terry W. This list has saved me many days/months of searching and learning for the best for my home building experience. -John F. ...the information available on the lists are a real help to me. -Roger O. Just finished flying off my 40-hours on the Zenith 601HDS with Stratus engine. Couldn't have done it without your site and the help of the guys on the List. -Larry M. It is a great service. -Robert K. [The] List is a great asset to me... -David M. The YAK list has been a great resource to me. -Walt Murphy An ongoing valuable resource, as usual. -Dennis N. Your's is a great service! -John J. The List was the most useful help building. -Lothar K. Excellent source of information. -Tony C. ...it's a great forum. -Lar ...tremendous resource. -Robert S. ...great service. -Johann J. In addition to being a valuable technical resource, the List is doubly worthwhile for the support and encouragement from other builders. -Al H. ...great tool. -Mark S. ...great service. -Peter T. ...couldn't have even contemplated doing this without the help of the List. -John L. I find a lot of useful info on the List... -Frank C. Many thanks for providing this commercial free service. -Fred K. ...excellent web site. -Ross H. Your list represents a daily activity for me, and I would miss it, if it were not available, just as you have presented it. -George R. The information that I have gleaned from the lists has saved me many hours of head scratching, and many thousands of dollars. -Kevin H. ...really like your site especially the archives. -Don W. You could say the List "changed my life," since that's what caused Monument Valley to happen and that certainly is a high point. -Dave P. ...awesome service! -Grant K. Your labor is 1st Class!!! -William C. ...great resource! -Sam B. This is a truly amazing list service. -Terry W. Another year of great service from the list. -Pat H. It's really a big help. -Clay K. [The] lists [are] very helpful. -Richard C. Great service, great work. -Dwight F. The List is fun and informative... -Jack H. ...great list. -Dennis E. I have learned a lot from [the List]. -Joel G. I especially appreciate keeping unwanted advertisers out!!!! -Lothar K. Invaluable! -Larry M. Great list. -Lothar K. ...I have made many good friends along the way. -Kevin H. ...you have provided a good service for those who wish to help others. -Jack H. Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft do not archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:46:43 PM PST US From: "Dean Seitz" Subject: Europa-List: Fitting Cowl --> Europa-List message posted by: "Dean Seitz" A question for the XS builders with a 914 turbo. I am just starting to fit the cowl. The instructions say to set the front flat of the cowl 1 inch back from the face of the engine hub. When set at 1 inch the starboard exhaust pipe is against the front of the cowl at the bottom of the round intake hole. Is this correct and I need to modify the cowl or did I do something wrong somewhere? Dean Seitz A284 N284A ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:48:47 PM PST US From: "Roger Anderson" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel filter isolation; question for UK builders --> Europa-List message posted by: "Roger Anderson" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Cope" Subject: Europa-List: Fuel filter isolation; question for UK builders > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Dave Cope" > > Doe anyone have a PFA approved mod which has isolation valves either side of the fuel filters, and are prepared to share the details with me? > I don't relish the prospect of having to drain the tank in order to service the filters. > Thanks in advance for any suggestions, > Dave Cope Dave, I submitted a mod. application to introduce Skydrive fuel cocks between both fuel tank outlets and the fuel filters on the 22nd September 2000. (Selecting 'off' on the fuel tap then isolates the filters) This was approved by a letter from Francis Donaldson dated the 20th October 2000, but for some reason it was not assigned a mod. number. The approval was granted subject to the fuel cocks being securely wire locked 'on' except during work on the filters, a fuel flow test and photographs showing the lie of the pipe runs. I drilled the tap handles and reduxed small metal brackets to the floor under the seats adjacent to the cocks to facilitate the wire locking. I have a fuel pressure gauge and was able to quote fuel pressure at max. rpm before and after the mod. in lieu of the flow test. Short lengths of rubber tube slit lengthways holds the taps (and the filters) off the inner skin to prevent drumming. I find it is very much more satisfactory than clamping the hoses with mole grips, and does no damage to the pipes. It also facilitates cleaning the filters if necessary away from home. Roger G-BXTD ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:17:41 PM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fitting Cowl --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" Dean, I had to modify my cowl. This is not an uncommon problem, however it is a lot of messing around , best avoided if possible. Paul N378PJ ~ 140 hours and still grinning ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dean Seitz" Subject: Europa-List: Fitting Cowl > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Dean Seitz" > > A question for the XS builders with a 914 turbo. I am just starting to fit > the cowl. The instructions say to set the front flat of the cowl 1 inch back > from the face of the engine hub. When set at 1 inch the starboard exhaust > pipe is against the front of the cowl at the bottom of the round intake > hole. Is this correct and I need to modify the cowl or did I do something > wrong somewhere? > > Dean Seitz > A284 N284A > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:46:50 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fitting Cowl --> Europa-List message posted by: I had about a quarter inch clearance and after a year or so built up the area over the spot and cut out a bit on the back side of the spot(where it is close). Seems ok and not noticeable. I sat the front edge of the cowl back about 3/4 inch. Ken Carpenter A123 N 9XS ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dean Seitz" Subject: Europa-List: Fitting Cowl > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Dean Seitz" > > A question for the XS builders with a 914 turbo. I am just starting to fit > the cowl. The instructions say to set the front flat of the cowl 1 inch > back > from the face of the engine hub. When set at 1 inch the starboard exhaust > pipe is against the front of the cowl at the bottom of the round intake > hole. Is this correct and I need to modify the cowl or did I do something > wrong somewhere? > > Dean Seitz > A284 N284A > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:53:03 PM PST US From: SPurpura@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fitting Cowl --> Europa-List message posted by: SPurpura@aol.com You should have at least a half inch clearance or more (vibration & heat),you don't want the header to contact the cowl at any point. Sam N77EU with a 914 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:09:46 PM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re:Paint opinion --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" Fred, I am going over the emails I received in advance and the following is your reply to some of my stupid questions. If I didn't say so, I do now - thanks for having taken the trouble to reply in such detail. It's much appreciated as I begin the season's mutterings over the finish I hope for. Still lots to do, but enjoy the help! Thanks again, Ferg ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Fillinger" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re:Paint opinion | --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" | | Fergus Kyle wrote: | | > I appreciate your advice in this topic, but am having | trouble | > with sentence structure..... may I infer that the two methods of | adhesion in | > the products under consideration are (a) Tooth adhesion and (b) | Chemical | > adhesion? | | All I meant was there will always be tooth adhesion, but two-part | epoxy primers are generally impervious to paint solvents. You can | test anything with the thinner to be used in the primer or topocoat, | if applied directly. How you can test adhesion of anything to a | waterborne coating like Smooth Prime, I dunno; is a test shoot that | lasts a year OK? | | I did a sand-and-paint down to a solvent 2-part epoxy primer that was | only a couple years old, and then Imron topcoat. Still good after 19 | years in the sun. But another time I used the same primer and shot | another poly, but the next day. Now the primer mfr said if you do | that, abrade it with Kraft paper. Huh? Well, I figured do what they | say, so I bought actual Kraft paper and sort of abraded it, I guess. | The topcoat mfr doesn't say it's OK to use this primer either, but | that poly is still good today. | | I didn't find out until recently that this primer I still use on metal | stuff (re adhesion) needs days of cure before you can wet sand it, | though it's no longer tacky overnight. If you wet-sand it too soon, | it balls up in the paper; it may be the phenomenon where epoxy can | draw in water by osmosis not absorption. Dry Kraft paper must break | the surface tension if still soft enough, which is the minimum | required for topcoating. | | I've also never had trouble with any poly or acrylic, over common | spray-can primer on small plastic fairings. No sense to me in mixing | gun-clogging epoxy for small parts which don't need the advantages of | that paint. | | > I plan on leaving the spray work to a professional | (commercial) | > painter .......and how do I voice my question to the provider? | | I recall a sign posted in an auto repair shop, "Watching - | Free....Questions - $10....Suggestions - Forbidden." | | Reg, | Fred F. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:13:05 PM PST US From: "Robert T. Stone" Subject: Europa-List: articulated sticks --> Europa-List message posted by: "Robert T. Stone" Europa N7854M is flying again! I have purchased the classic from George Adrian and am now flying off the 40 hours the FAA requires from Watsonville California, after which I will move the plane's base to Palo Alto, CA. (at 21.2 hours aso fo today.) Since I am relatively short, the standard straight sticks are a bit "out there" for me, and I would like to install the articulated control sticks. Any suggestions as to how to obtain them - or is the factory shipping parts again. I am also considering installing a contant speed prop, and would like any comments regarding both the Airmaster and the Ivoprop on the Jabiru 3300. (the Ivoprop costs less than half the Airmaster, but Airmaster has a complete kit for the Europa with a Jabiru 3300. Robert T. Stone, Ph.D., CTO MedTech Development, LLC 5150 El Camino Real Bldg E, Suite 30 Los Altos, CA 94022 650-962-1720 (Office) 650-962-8635(fax) 408-393-5386 (mobile) ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:45:14 PM PST US From: "Kevin Klinefelter" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fitting Cowl --> Europa-List message posted by: "Kevin Klinefelter" Below is a message I saved from Andy. One thing to keep in mind is that if you move the cowl forward in an effort to provide clearance to the exhaust you will decrease the clearance between cowl and spinner Kevin, A211 914/airmaster...painting I should point out that the Engine Installation Manual has an error in the cowling to spinner clearance dimension. The dimension that the front face of the cowling should be behind the front of the prop flange is 25mm (1"), not 5mm as stated. Apologies for the misleading information. Best Regards Andy Draper -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dean Seitz Subject: Europa-List: Fitting Cowl --> Europa-List message posted by: "Dean Seitz" A question for the XS builders with a 914 turbo. I am just starting to fit the cowl. The instructions say to set the front flat of the cowl 1 inch back from the face of the engine hub. When set at 1 inch the starboard exhaust pipe is against the front of the cowl at the bottom of the round intake hole. Is this correct and I need to modify the cowl or did I do something wrong somewhere? Dean Seitz A284 N284A --- --- ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:43:54 PM PST US From: JEFF ROBERTS Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fitting Cowl --> Europa-List message posted by: JEFF ROBERTS On Nov 20, 2004, at 9:49 PM, Kevin Klinefelter wrote: Kevin, The following is the way to go and I recovered it from Nev, after I was far along via the manual and had made many mistakes. Take 2 or 3 inch 2 sided masking tape and tape it around the recess where the cowl is to fit the fuselage. Let it extend 2 inches from the edge of the joggle aft. Fit out your prop & spinner first. Making sure the spinner is balanced & true. Place the lower cowl up under then the upper cowl and cleco them together to fit. Now adjust for perfect spinner clearance and match. Remember 3/4 to 1 inch of clearance between the cowl & spinner. Having it held in place, trace with a marker the back of the cowl around the fuselage on the tape. Now remove the cowl and re assemble top to bottom off of the fuselage. The traced line should be on the tape just aft of the joggle that the cowl is meant to fit into. Now draw a line following the joggle all the way around. Carefully remove the tape not to rip it, and place it on the inner aft edge of the cowl and match up the aft traced line as it was when the cowl was in place on the fuselage. You now can cut the cowl to fit in one try by following the joggle line on the tape that you traced. This sounds harder than it is and saves you countless hours placing the cowl on and off and like me even having to repair the front to match the spinner. I have a 912-S not the 914 but fitting the cowl Neville's way would have saved me weeks, or in my part time case, months of work. This is one of those things that really irritated me about the old Europa company. The best ways of doing things we're always kept in a secret in vault and we're never disclosed until many had pushed on the wrong way. Then one day the quick and right way would surface far after it was too late for some of us. It sounds like the new europa boys are on the right track. If you are listening... FIX THE MANUAL! Your builders deserve the experience of those people that have built lots of Europas. Neville, Bob, etc. Pay them, consult with them and fix the manual. Jeff A258 Seeing blue sky at the end of the tunnel. > A question for the XS builders with a 914 turbo. I am just starting to > fit > the cowl. The instructions say to set the front flat of the cowl 1 > inch back > from the face of the engine hub. When set at 1 inch the starboard > exhaust > pipe is against the front of the cowl at the bottom of the round intake > hole. Is this correct and I need to modify the cowl or did I do > something > wrong somewhere? > > Dean Seitz > A284 N284A > > > --- > > --- > >