---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 01/13/05: 20 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:47 AM - Re: Europa-List Digest: 30 Msgs - 01/12/05 (Graham Singleton) 2. 03:06 AM - Exhaust pipe flanges - 912S (Graham Singleton) 3. 03:47 AM - Re: Re: Europa-List Digest: 30 Msgs - 01/12/05 (Richard Iddon) 4. 03:47 AM - Re: Exhaust pipe flanges - 912S (Richard Iddon) 5. 06:00 AM - Re: Squeezing solid rivets (EuropaXSA276@aol.com) 6. 07:26 AM - Re: Squeezing solid rivets (Fred Fillinger) 7. 09:41 AM - Re: Squeezing solid rivets (Andrew Sarangan) 8. 09:42 AM - Re: Squeezing solid rivets (David Joyce) 9. 10:20 AM - Re: Squeezing solid rivets (Fred Fillinger) 10. 11:07 AM - Tri Gear Conversion (Willyoso) 11. 11:49 AM - Rudder deflection (Garry Copeland) 12. 11:53 AM - Re: Autopilot Advice (simon miles) 13. 12:43 PM - Pads for CS15 (David Simenauer) 14. 01:03 PM - Re: Exhaust pipe flanges - 912S (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen) 15. 02:00 PM - Re: Pads for CS15 (R.C.Harrison) 16. 05:35 PM - Re: Squeezing solid rivets (RK Hallett III) 17. 05:59 PM - Re: Squeezing solid rivets (SPurpura@aol.com) 18. 06:33 PM - Re: Pads for CS15 (Paul McAllister) 19. 06:34 PM - Re: Pads for CS15 (SteveD) 20. 09:00 PM - Re: Pads for CS15 (Kingsley Hurst) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:47:49 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List Digest: 30 Msgs - 01/12/05 --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton At 23:56 12/01/2005 -0800, you wrote: >Has anyone got any better solution than the standard plastic pipes used >on the Trigear finger brakes. I am thinking of using copper is that the >best option or is there something better? >Many Thanks > >Alan Alan don't think I'd recommend copper, or copper alloy. They tend to fatigue and break with vibration. I still prefer the hard nylon. Incidentally it is possible to use AN fittings and flared joints with nylon. Just warm it a little, (don't melt it) The other alternative would be stainless braided teflon, as supplied for motor bikes and race cars. That's probably the best. Graham -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:06:03 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Europa-List: Exhaust pipe flanges - 912S --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton At 23:56 12/01/2005 -0800, you wrote: >Although it seems unlikely the nuts can work loose. In the first year I >had one manifold (the front stbd) come loose enough to allow sooting of >the head due to gases escaping. I know that I am not the only case >and have checked the nuts regularly since. One thought is, if there is >enough thread available, lock >the nut with an extra half nut. > >Nigel Charles Nigel I have heard of several cases like this, particularly in the early days. Maybe related to the old exhaust manufacturer. Kim Prout sorted the problem with some special locking nuts onto studs. (I don't nave the details) The nuts have a locking tab held in place with a circlip. He bought them local to Ontario in the LA area. I wish Kim contributed to this list, he has a lot of useful experience to share . Graham -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:47:53 AM PST US From: "Richard Iddon" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List Digest: 30 Msgs - 01/12/05 --> Europa-List message posted by: "Richard Iddon" As an aside, can anyone tell me where I can buy new olives for the fittings on the hard nylon brake pipe? Europa can only supply them as part of a complete fitting. Richard Iddon G-RIXS -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham Singleton Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List Digest: 30 Msgs - 01/12/05 --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton At 23:56 12/01/2005 -0800, you wrote: >Has anyone got any better solution than the standard plastic pipes used >on the Trigear finger brakes. I am thinking of using copper is that the >best option or is there something better? >Many Thanks > >Alan Alan don't think I'd recommend copper, or copper alloy. They tend to fatigue and break with vibration. I still prefer the hard nylon. Incidentally it is possible to use AN fittings and flared joints with nylon. Just warm it a little, (don't melt it) The other alternative would be stainless braided teflon, as supplied for motor bikes and race cars. That's probably the best. Graham ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:47:53 AM PST US From: "Richard Iddon" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Exhaust pipe flanges - 912S --> Europa-List message posted by: "Richard Iddon" Funny, I had sooting in the exact same place. I thought that the exhaust just didn't fit very well into the silencer so I lapped it in a bit with grinding paste. Seems to have stopped sooting now. I will also check the tightness of the nuts. Richard Iddon G-RIXS -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham Singleton Subject: Europa-List: Exhaust pipe flanges - 912S --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton At 23:56 12/01/2005 -0800, you wrote: >Although it seems unlikely the nuts can work loose. In the first year I >had one manifold (the front stbd) come loose enough to allow sooting of >the head due to gases escaping. I know that I am not the only case >and have checked the nuts regularly since. One thought is, if there is >enough thread available, lock >the nut with an extra half nut. > >Nigel Charles ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:00:29 AM PST US From: EuropaXSA276@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Squeezing solid rivets --> Europa-List message posted by: EuropaXSA276@aol.com Hello Andrew I tried to use a vise to squeeze the aileron cam rivets. Some have used a punch, hammer and anvil. I did not like the results of the vise method. In the end I wound up buying new cam and bearing parts from Europa AND the $130.00 rivet squeezer from Spruce and starting over. As I remember the updated manual states that there is a type of pop rivet that is acceptable for this application. All the manual updates are on the Europa Owners site. Perhaps you can find the fastener number there and order from Spruce. Anyone know the fastener number for these pop rivets? Brian Skelly Texas Europa # A276 TriGear See My build photos at: http://www.europaowners.org/BrianS ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:26:00 AM PST US From: "Fred Fillinger" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Squeezing solid rivets --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" > Andrew Sarangan wrote: > > Is there a way to squeeze these rivets without > buying a rivet squeezer? I just substituted the softer AN rivets, because I couldn't see where the control forces demand the hard rivet. The enables use of a air chisel from like Harbor Freight Tools, maybe $15, using lower pressure regulated air. Bought the dimpled round-head rivet tool on a trip to Oshkosh for a couple $$, or you could file & grind one up from the set of chisels that comes with it. One good thing about cheap tools is the steel can be rather soft. Just in case I'm wrong on strength needed, especially where there's only 2 of them at a rod end, I assembled them with the green structural glue. Reg, Fred F. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:41:45 AM PST US From: Andrew Sarangan Subject: Re: Europa-List: Squeezing solid rivets --> Europa-List message posted by: Andrew Sarangan Wow! Thanks for that pointer. I checked the manual updates in europaowners.org, and found that it does mention a substitute pop rivet. Great. But I am worried now how many such updates I may have missed. Shouldn't Europa be distributing these updates to all builders? I am wondering how Steve got these updates in the first place. --- EuropaXSA276@aol.com wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: EuropaXSA276@aol.com > > Hello Andrew > I tried to use a vise to squeeze the aileron cam rivets. Some have > used a > punch, hammer and anvil. I did not like the results of the vise > method. In the > end I wound up buying new cam and bearing parts from Europa AND the > $130.00 > rivet squeezer from Spruce and starting over. > > As I remember the updated manual states that there is a type of pop > rivet > that is acceptable for this application. > > All the manual updates are on the Europa Owners site. Perhaps you can > find > the fastener number there and order from Spruce. > > Anyone know the fastener number for these pop rivets? > > > Brian Skelly > Texas > Europa # A276 TriGear > See My build photos at: > http://www.europaowners.org/BrianS > > > > > > > > > ===== Andrew Sarangan http://www.geocities.com/asarangan ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:42:43 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Squeezing solid rivets --> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" Fred, I guess the strength relates to the PFA requirement that if anything jams the aileron or other control surface you should not be able to break the control run with any force you could realistically apply to the stick. I found it worked well for me to do initial squeezing in a large vice and then finish off with a hammer and a concave mini anvil on the other end. Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Fillinger" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Squeezing solid rivets > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" > > I just substituted the softer AN rivets, because I couldn't see where > the control forces demand the hard rivet. The enables use of a air > chisel from like Harbor Freight Tools, maybe $15, using lower pressure > regulated air. Bought the dimpled round-head rivet tool on a trip to > Oshkosh for a couple $$, or you could file & grind one up from the set > of chisels that comes with it. One good thing about cheap tools is > the steel can be rather soft. Just in case I'm wrong on strength > needed, especially where there's only 2 of them at a rod end, I > assembled them with the green structural glue. > > Reg, > Fred F. > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:20:21 AM PST US From: "Fred Fillinger" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Squeezing solid rivets --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" > Fred, > I guess the strength relates to the PFA requirement that if > anything jams the aileron or other control surface you should not be able to > break the control run with any force you could realistically apply to the > stick. > I found it worked well for me to do initial squeezing in a large > vice and then finish off with a hammer and a concave mini anvil on the other > end. Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ Can't quibble with that at all, but it's also true that on a rod end, the force on the rivet is all shear, no tension. So how "1-1/2 times D" pretty the shop head comes out shouldn't matter, as long as she can't....fall out! Reg, Fred F. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:07:05 AM PST US From: "Willyoso" Subject: Europa-List: Tri Gear Conversion --> Europa-List message posted by: "Willyoso" Hello All, I am new to this list and would like to correspond with any who have converted the mono wheel to tri-gear to qualify under the new Sport Pilot rules. Would also be interested in any that have used the motor glider classification to overcome being "medically challenged" If you wish to respond off-list I can be reached at willyoso@quixnet.net Thanks, Willy Wilcken Mesa, AZ ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:49:42 AM PST US From: "Garry Copeland" Subject: Europa-List: Rudder deflection --> Europa-List message posted by: "Garry Copeland" Dave, Jeff, Ferg, Thanks for the advice. I am creeping up on it 2mm at a time. Not quite there yet, but I'd rather have a few bites at getting the gap right than having a bigger than necessary gap. I have belatedly learned the 'measure thrice, cut once' lesson. Garry ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:53:22 AM PST US From: "simon miles" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Autopilot Advice --> Europa-List message posted by: "simon miles" For me, the real advantage of the autopilot with it's own gyro is that when the donkey stops I can rely on it to keep me the right way up without exercising my 'needle and ball' skills (hah!) while descending through cloud with no vacuum instruments - should I find myself in that situation. In such stressful circumstances that facility would be a godsend... Simon Miles, Builder #508 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Fillinger" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Autopilot Advice > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" > >> --> Europa-List message posted by: > >> I particularly like the 'get me out of IMC' button - just press and >> hold for 3 seconds - Autopilot comes on, turns you through 180 > degrees.... > > I don't wish to start a debate over the concept of....if you need an > autopilot to 180 out of IMC...and arguable wisdom of periodic dual > instruction in that regard. :-) > > IMO, the issue is how well the thing will do the job in turbulence, as > an instrument-rated pilot knows any +/- excursions from what you want > it to do don't mean anything. There's conditions where turning the > aircraft as per ATC or the approach plate is easier to do manually, > since there's simply less thinking to do in the instrument scan. But > for a VFR-only pilot, those excursions might be disconcerting, the > first of a chain of events potentially leading to a "problem." > > With such a feature, I think it would be good to thoroughly and > periodically test it in turbulence, to get used to what the panel > instruments will be doing, so as to better monitor how well the > autopilot is bailing you out. Just like an IR pilot would do, with > that box optionally doing what the subconscious brain has been trained > to do. > > Reg, > Fred F. > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:43:53 PM PST US From: "David Simenauer" Subject: Europa-List: Pads for CS15 --> Europa-List message posted by: "David Simenauer" The diagram in my manual shows a phenolic pad on the face of the CS15 quick connect bellcrank for the ailerons. However nowhere can I find in my manual any instructions for attaching this pad or even a part number. I have found a piece of Tufnol, part number euro8 that is 83mm x 75mm x 1mm thick. This seems like the pad. Is this indeed the pad and should I attach it to the CS15 with a bit of Araldite. Thanks, Dave Simenauer A101 Trigear ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:03:23 PM PST US From: "Sidsel & Svein Johnsen" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Exhaust pipe flanges - 912S --> Europa-List message posted by: "Sidsel & Svein Johnsen" > --> Europa-List message posted by: "nigel charles" > The latest nuts are slightly > different (copper coloured for identification purposes) so might stay > put better. One thought is, if there is enough thread available, lock > the nut with an extra half nut. > > Nigel Charles > > Hello, Nigel, Thank you very much for the feedback. This point certainly needs to be checked regularly. I actually have the copper coloured nuts, which have a self-locking feature that is simple to "re-condition" if it has worked loose during a few "on and offs" of the nuts: Just press the nut (or knock it with a hammer) to close the gap cut at the small diameter end (those having these nuts will immediately understand what I mean!). On my installation, there are unfortunately not enough threads for an extra nut. What I did, though, was to give the flanges a small negative pre-bend, so that I could tighten the nuts a little more when bending the flanges back to flat. I find it odd that these flanges are made so soft - cannot see any reason why the part around the fat part of the pipe is not made wider, it would not have intereferred with anything. There is an interesting feature, however, on the flange welded to the pipe end, onto which the loose flange in focus presses: The contact surface of that other flange is slightly bevelled, which (I think) ensures positive contact all around even when the loose flange bends some. As any pressure on the loose flange by the nuts being tightened will, by definition, introduce bend in the flange, perhaps this the clever way that the manufactur has solved this issue. I have also followed Rotax' recommendation to prevent vibration of the springs between down pipes and muffler by locking wires between the springs, around the half-circumference each side of the pipes. Regards, Svein A225 XS Trigear - now in Norway ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:00:21 PM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Pads for CS15 --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" Hi! David. Looks like you have the right perception of the use for the 1mm thick tufnol, except you may need it to be slightly thicker to take up operational slack in the connection. If that's the case then you will need two layers of the tufnol and then sand it back to the right thickness. Similarly you may need to cut back even the single thickness to achieve close coupling without stress or backlash. Use the green redux mixed thinly with flox to bond it to the connectors but be sure to make it flat with a straight edge when bonding. (always presuming that you have enough!) Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG Robt.C.Harrison -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Simenauer Subject: Europa-List: Pads for CS15 --> Europa-List message posted by: "David Simenauer" The diagram in my manual shows a phenolic pad on the face of the CS15 quick connect bellcrank for the ailerons. However nowhere can I find in my manual any instructions for attaching this pad or even a part number. I have found a piece of Tufnol, part number euro8 that is 83mm x 75mm x 1mm thick. This seems like the pad. Is this indeed the pad and should I attach it to the CS15 with a bit of Araldite. Thanks, Dave Simenauer A101 Trigear ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:35:00 PM PST US From: RK Hallett III Subject: Re: Europa-List: Squeezing solid rivets --> Europa-List message posted by: RK Hallett III Andrew, If it is an option, you could check with your local EAA chapter. They frequently have tools to loan. Just a thought. Ralph RK Hallett III MG Reno,NV Andrew Sarangan wrote: >--> Europa-List message posted by: Andrew Sarangan > > >Is there a way to squeeze these rivets without buying a rivet squeezer? >A bench vice, perhaps? A rivet squeezer runs for about $130 which seems >hardly worth it considering the small number of rivets, and I don't >know anyone who owns one of these to borrow from. Having gotten used to >the pop rivets, I was surprised to find these rivets in the kit. Any >advice is appreciated. > > >===== >Andrew Sarangan >http://www.geocities.com/asarangan > > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:59:02 PM PST US From: SPurpura@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Squeezing solid rivets --> Europa-List message posted by: SPurpura@aol.com TRY USING A RIVET SET, AVAIL. THRU MC MASTER CARR SAM N77EU ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:33:12 PM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Pads for CS15 --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" Dave, I can't recall the correct bit of tufnol, but I'd like to share with you how I went about it. I put the wings on and then got a block of tufnol and slowly reduced its thickness until it was a snug fit between the spar and the CS15 bracket. I then removed the wings, roughed up the aluminum and bonded it in with redux. Now when I install the wings they are held precisely at the right height for the spar pins. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Simenauer" Subject: Europa-List: Pads for CS15 > --> Europa-List message posted by: "David Simenauer" > > The diagram in my manual shows a phenolic pad on the face of the CS15 quick connect bellcrank for the ailerons. However nowhere can I find in my manual any instructions for attaching this pad or even a part number. I have found a piece of Tufnol, part number euro8 that is 83mm x 75mm x 1mm thick. This seems like the pad. Is this indeed the pad and should I attach it to the CS15 with a bit of Araldite. > > Thanks, > Dave Simenauer > > A101 Trigear ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:34:04 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: RE: Pads for CS15 From: "SteveD" 2.60 REPLY_TO_EMPTY Reply-To: is empty --> Europa-List message posted by: "SteveD" Hi Dave, Just finished this job last week. My starboard connection had a large gap and the port a small gap. First I tried having the ailerons in neutral, moving the stick until the bottom of CS15 just touched W16, measured the gap, cut the measurement in half, and made a shim. For reasons known only to Stephen Hawking, this did not work in our universe. I then used 3/4 inch wide shims, slid them in between CS15 and W16, until the contact with full deflection in both directions was perfect. Pulled the shim pack out, CS15 out, and put calipers to them. I then made three small "buttons" of the correct size shim, (shim thickness - phenolic pad) buttered the CS15 with redux and flox, pushed the "buttons" in the mix, dropped the phenolic pad on, clamped them with C clamps, and cleaned the ooze away. Then I checked the thickness and evenness with the calipers again and left to setup. I'm very happy with the results, ailerons move like silk with direct contact the whole way. When you take your measurements, make sure you have all your pins in place. It makes a difference. Chat Later Steved ---------------- Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/ ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:00:49 PM PST US From: "Kingsley Hurst" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Pads for CS15 --> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" Dave, The pad you have identified is correct but you will have to split it into two 83mm X 38mm pieces so that you have a piece for each quick connect mechanism. You must use Redux (Araldite 420) to bond them to the angle pieces after scuffing the mating surfaces. Don't use 5 min Araldite. A most important part of doing this job is to first ensure that the two bolts on which the quick connects pivot on the wing spars, line up PERFECTLY with those on the aluminium brackets. Check this by making up a neat fitting sleeve of appropriate length to slide from one bolt to the other when the wings are rigged. Access is possible with long nosed pliers through the gap along the top of the wing at this stage adjacent to the spar. The spacer used on the bolt of one spar adjacent to the rigging cup is a suitable sleeve. If the alignment is not correct, enlarge the hole in the spar slightly to give the bolt in the spar a bit of free movement. Once you are able to slide the sleeve from one bolt to the other with no force, remove the wing in question and repot the bolt in the spar with some redux. Put the wing back on and with the sleeve half way over both bolts to maintain alignment and ensuring the wing spar bolt is fully home, allow the redux to cure. (preferably overnight). Now that you have achieved perfect alignment of the bolts, the rest is easy. The shims can be bonded on their angle pieces away from the aircraft. Using the longest AN4 bolt you have, make up the quick connect assembly on this one bolt. You will then see the gap between the two surfaces which has to be filled with the piece of tufnol you originally asked about. You will find this gap is slightly wider than the tufnol and the difference is made up with a Redux (Araldite 420) and Flox mixture. By holding the bolt in a vice, this bonding procedure can be done easily with this set-up. When I did it, I ensured that the angle piece onto which the tufnol is being bonded, was the upper piece (all oriented horizontally) so that gravity helped to hold the tufnol against the other angle piece underneath. To further ensure there will be no residual gap, place a small piece of sponge rubber in the middle of the bonding area (never to be seen again) and this will expand pushing the tufnol firmly against the other mating piece while the redux cures. When you rig the wings again, you will have perfectly matching quick connects but ensure you get the pivot bolts aligned perfectly first, this is imperative. Hope this all makes sense and sorry it is so long. . . . seems to be a problem I have ! Regards Kingsley Hurst Mono Classic 281 in Oz.