---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 01/17/05: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:39 AM - Re: First flight G-CDBX (R.C.Harrison) 2. 03:24 AM - Re: lock knutts (Growzone) 3. 05:17 AM - Re: Carb balancing - Differential presure gauage ? (Roger Anderson) 4. 06:53 AM - Re: Carb balancing - Differential presure gauage ? (Carl Pattinson) 5. 07:06 AM - ANR Headsets For Sale (Carl Pattinson) 6. 07:30 AM - credit card refund of europe kit deposit (europa@brownfamily.org.uk) 7. 08:30 AM - Re: First flight G-CDBX (N55XS) 8. 10:20 AM - Re: Props (Dave_Miller@avivacanada.com) 9. 11:05 AM - Re: First flight G-CDBX (Gerry Holland) 10. 12:40 PM - Re: First flight G-CDBX (Tony Bale) 11. 12:40 PM - G-CCUL Flight Test Latest (Tony Bale) 12. 02:59 PM - Re: Carb balancing - Differential presure gauage ? (Duncan McFadyean) 13. 03:15 PM - Re: G-CCUL Flight Test Latest (rlborger) 14. 03:29 PM - Re: G-CCUL Flight Test Latest (Carl Pattinson) 15. 05:05 PM - Re: Carb balancing - Differential presure gauage ? (Steve Crimm) 16. 05:08 PM - Re: G-CCUL Flight Test Latest (Duncan McFadyean) 17. 05:23 PM - lock nuts (Graham Higgins) 18. 06:49 PM - Re: lock nuts (Cliff Shaw) 19. 06:53 PM - Re:- Lock Knutts !! (Edward Gladstone) 20. 08:49 PM - Re: lock nuts (Dww0708@aol.com) 21. 09:11 PM - Re: Re: europa parts wanted (WEC) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:39:57 AM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: First flight G-CDBX --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" Congratulations Robert! Not another Bob ? We should have suffix numbers or letters included, perhaps. Nice write up about your final preps for the trial flight what about how long, how many hours it took what engine, xs or MKI and Kit Number, Mono or trike, please? Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa 337 MKI/Jabiru 3300 Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Marston Subject: Europa-List: First flight G-CDBX ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:24:29 AM PST US From: "Growzone" Subject: Re: Europa-List: lock knutts --> Europa-List message posted by: "Growzone" > Kingsley > you spotted the fact that lock nut load is less but the load on the outer > nut is increased by the lock nut. Having lock nut on top would load it up > too much > Graham Got that thank you Graham. Are you also able to explain why the outer nut should be held while the inner is backed off to effect the lock rather than the other way around ? I've now got a theory but I wouldn't bet on it. While I'm at it Graham, are two swages on a cable thimble any stronger than one ? Tests I have seen carried out have broken the cable rather than pulling through the swage so I can't help but wonder about the point of having two. Thanks again ole mate. Kingsley ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:17:58 AM PST US From: "Roger Anderson" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Carb balancing - Differential presure gauage ? --> Europa-List message posted by: "Roger Anderson" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul McAllister" > I was wondering if this could be done with a single gauge that has a center zero and maybe 5 ~ 10 psi either side. I haven't tired to locate such a gauge but I shouldn't think it would be too hard to find one. Paul, I balance my carbs from time to time using a home made water manometer. It comprises a length of tubing (that was originally supplied for the instruments) into which I put about a metre of water. I disconnect the balance tube between the manifolds and connect the tube between the open ends. I attach the tube to a solid support alongside the aircraft and visible from the cockpit such that there is at least a metre of empty tube each side above the water level. I then run the engine and adjust the cable lengths to achieve the best compromise of balance throughout the range. If the imbalance is such that the water gets sucked/blown out you get a puff of steam from the exhaust and have to start again - possibly with a longer tube! It is interesting to note that rapid movements of the throttle always cause an initial imbalance but that this rapidly subsides - a good reason for being gentle with the throttle. Roger (G-BXTD) ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:53:46 AM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Carb balancing - Differential presure gauage ? --> Europa-List message posted by: "Carl Pattinson" Cheap carb balancing kit. Firstly, I believe the Europa club has a Skydrive carb balancer which can be loaned out. Its a more sophisticated version of what I am about to describe. If you prefer to make your own see below. I made mine from a pair of Gunsons car tuning gauges (think they are called Hi Gauge) purchased from Halfords (about 15 each from memory). You need a restrictor to iron out the oscillations for which I used a couple of fish tank air regulators (50p each probably) and a length of instrument tubing (PVC) Remove the balance tube between the inlet manifolds and connect a guage to each one. Its a good idea to fit a balance pipe between the guages to check that they are reading the same initially, but must be removed or shut off when balancing the carbs. If anyone would like a photo, email me at carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Anderson" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Carb balancing - Differential presure gauage ? > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Roger Anderson" > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul McAllister" >> I was wondering if this could be done with a single gauge that has a > center zero and maybe 5 ~ 10 psi either side. I haven't tired to locate > such a gauge but I shouldn't think it would be too hard to find one. > > Paul, > I balance my carbs from time to time using a home made water manometer. > It comprises a length of tubing (that was originally supplied for the > instruments) into which I put about a metre of water. I disconnect the > balance tube between the manifolds and connect the tube between the open > ends. I attach the tube to a solid support alongside the aircraft and > visible from the cockpit such that there is at least a metre of empty > tube > each side above the water level. I then run the engine and adjust the > cable > lengths to achieve the best compromise of balance throughout the range. > If the imbalance is such that the water gets sucked/blown out you get a > puff of steam from the exhaust and have to start again - possibly with a > longer tube! > It is interesting to note that rapid movements of the throttle always > cause an initial imbalance but that this rapidly subsides - a good reason > for being gentle with the throttle. > Roger (G-BXTD) > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:06:12 AM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Europa-List: ANR Headsets For Sale --> Europa-List message posted by: "Carl Pattinson" I am currently selling my old Skyforce headset on Ebay as I was given a new one for Christmas. There are actually two for sale, (though only one advertised). Both in good condition. Physically they are similar to Dave Clark/ Avcomm headsets. The ANR is very effective though not as comfortable as the new one (Sennheiser HMEC 300). If you are looking for a cheap pair of ANR headsets then you might consider bidding for these. The URL is http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item5551351310&ssPageNameADME:B:LC:UK:1 Carl Pattinson G-LABS ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:30:39 AM PST US From: europa@brownfamily.org.uk Subject: Europa-List: credit card refund of europe kit deposit --> Europa-List message posted by: europa@brownfamily.org.uk Hi Folks, just a quick note for anyone who paid a deposit to EMIL using their credit card - my card issuer just refunded me the complete amount. They took plenty of time, and I didn't feel confident given that the transaction was back in June 2003 but in the end they came good. I mention all this since there may be others who have not yet tried this route. cheers Andy ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:30:03 AM PST US From: N55XS Subject: Re: Europa-List: First flight G-CDBX --> Europa-List message posted by: N55XS Robert, congratulations on this landmark occasion. It is wonderful to hear about another Eupopa taking to the sky. First flight for N55XS is, hopefully, only a few months away. I hope that it goes as well as yours has. Again, congratulations... Jeff A055 Tri-Gear Ready for paint and FWF... Robert Marston wrote: >--> Europa-List message posted by: "Robert Marston" > >Im delighted to announce the first flight of G-CDBX, which took place at >14.05 today at Shenstone airfield in the very capable hands of Lyndon Thorne >(Taff). > >The day started with the weather not looking good enough to fly, there was a >crosswind and it was gusting quite badly. >We checked the plane out this morning and Taff then decided to do some >fast taxiing down the runway. From the moment he got in and started >taxiing it was clear that he could make it perform like I never could, even >though he had never been in it before. The fast taxiing consisted of 2 >runs up and down the runway, during which the airspeed indicator touched 40 >knots. It seemed to perform fine so it was back to the hangar. Next was >a full power check for two minutes, with 2 people on each wing holding it >back. Again, no problems. >Then the top cowling was removed, and the engine checked for loose bits and >leaks. > >The weather was still not looking good so lunch was started. >At about 14.00 Taff said he was going to perform some more fast taxiing, >and that she might fly. The hint as enough, I thought I knew him well >enough to know she was going. I watched him walk to the plane, climb in, >and close the canopy, thats when it began to dawn on me that she might just >be going flying. I quickly spread the word to my wife, children and >friends. By now Taff was already taxiing out to the runway. >We watched as he went to the end of the runway, did a 180-degree turn and >stopped. By now there was a crowd of 15 of more expectant observers. Taff >waited at the end of the runway, we heard the engine run up, mag. checks and >so on. Taff had waited too long, this was no fast taxi check, this was the >real thing. >The wiggle of the tail showed the power had come on, full power and he meant >business as it accelerated down the runway. After 150m there was daylight >beneath the wheels. She hugged the ground for a while gaining airspeed >before climbing effortlessly into the air. He told me later that because of >the gusty conditions he wanted to accelerate to about 75knts for the climb >out. The climb looked good. At what looked like 500ft I heard the engine >throttle back slightly as Taff told me he would. So far everything looked >fine and I was more than relieved. >After 5 minutes or so, Taff was on the hand held radio saying he was going >to 'fly an approach and overshoot'. There was clearly a crosswind as he >crabbed in, but the plane looked great. The sight of G-CDBX as Taff flew >past at 20 ft down the runway was definitely the best. This was when I >knew she really did fly. >There followed another circuit, and then the landing. The approach looked >good, even thought the wind didnt. The round out at 6 inches above the >ground was followed by the smoothest of landings. Some people, Taff, >amongst others seem to produce a perfect landing in less than favourable >conditions and I struggle to produce an acceptable landing in perfect >conditions. >This was just another day for Taff but clearly one I will not forget. >Im sure the next few weeks and indeed my first flight in G_CDBX will be >equally satisfying. >My thanks to everyone who has helped me in this project. > >Robert Marston > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:20:59 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Props From: Dave_Miller@avivacanada.com 01/17/2005 12:32:23 PM, Serialize complete at 01/17/2005 12:32:23 PM --> Europa-List message posted by: Dave_Miller@avivacanada.com I cannot comment on the performance, and I doubt that I will ever get to 18,000', but I have fitted an SR 2000 to my 912S trigear. Should be flying this year if I get myself moving. I think that I am not that far away from your part of the world ( I'm in London, Ont) if you want to take a look sometime. Dave, A061 Do not archive "Jim Butcher" Sent by: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com 01/16/05 11:47 AM Please respond to europa-list To: "europalist" cc: Subject: Europa-List: Props --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jim Butcher" Does anyone have any information on the Kremen / Woodcomp SR2000 SR3000 performance compared to the AirMaster? I understand the SR3000 will be full feather so it works for the glider. Does the SR2000 do a better job at higher altitudes (say 18000 ft) than the Airmaster where the blades apparently don't have quite enough area? Also, anyone getting responses from Martin at Airmaster? Airmaster is starting to be quiet like EMIL did at the end. Jim Butcher A185 N241BW Finishing electrical, engine to go, paint done. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:05:11 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: First flight G-CDBX From: Gerry Holland --> Europa-List message posted by: Gerry Holland Robert Hi! Congratulations on your first flight! Your summary of the events of the day was very useful. I'm hopeful I'll join you later this year. Hope weather improves and that initial 5 hours is quickly flown off. Kind Regards Gerry Europa 384 G-FIZY Trigear with Rotax 912 and Arplast CS Prop. Dynon EFIS, KMD 150, Icom A-200 and SL70 Transponder. PSS AoA Fitted. http://www.g-fizy.com Mobile: +44 7808 402404 WebFax: +44 870 7059985 gnholland@onetel.com ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:40:34 PM PST US From: "Tony Bale" Subject: Re: Europa-List: First flight G-CDBX --> Europa-List message posted by: "Tony Bale" Congrats on the first flight of your bird - great feeling isn't it ? Hope the test programme is completed quickly, without any problems and all is signed off ready to go soon. Tony Bale XS 336 G-CCUL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Marston" Subject: Europa-List: First flight G-CDBX > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Robert Marston" > > Im delighted to announce the first flight of G-CDBX, which took place at > 14.05 today at Shenstone airfield in the very capable hands of Lyndon Thorne > (Taff). > > The day started with the weather not looking good enough to fly, there was a > crosswind and it was gusting quite badly. > We checked the plane out this morning and Taff then decided to do some > fast taxiing down the runway. From the moment he got in and started > taxiing it was clear that he could make it perform like I never could, even > though he had never been in it before. The fast taxiing consisted of 2 > runs up and down the runway, during which the airspeed indicator touched 40 > knots. It seemed to perform fine so it was back to the hangar. Next was > a full power check for two minutes, with 2 people on each wing holding it > back. Again, no problems. > Then the top cowling was removed, and the engine checked for loose bits and > leaks. > > The weather was still not looking good so lunch was started. > At about 14.00 Taff said he was going to perform some more fast taxiing, > and that she might fly. The hint as enough, I thought I knew him well > enough to know she was going. I watched him walk to the plane, climb in, > and close the canopy, thats when it began to dawn on me that she might just > be going flying. I quickly spread the word to my wife, children and > friends. By now Taff was already taxiing out to the runway. > We watched as he went to the end of the runway, did a 180-degree turn and > stopped. By now there was a crowd of 15 of more expectant observers. Taff > waited at the end of the runway, we heard the engine run up, mag. checks and > so on. Taff had waited too long, this was no fast taxi check, this was the > real thing. > The wiggle of the tail showed the power had come on, full power and he meant > business as it accelerated down the runway. After 150m there was daylight > beneath the wheels. She hugged the ground for a while gaining airspeed > before climbing effortlessly into the air. He told me later that because of > the gusty conditions he wanted to accelerate to about 75knts for the climb > out. The climb looked good. At what looked like 500ft I heard the engine > throttle back slightly as Taff told me he would. So far everything looked > fine and I was more than relieved. > After 5 minutes or so, Taff was on the hand held radio saying he was going > to 'fly an approach and overshoot'. There was clearly a crosswind as he > crabbed in, but the plane looked great. The sight of G-CDBX as Taff flew > past at 20 ft down the runway was definitely the best. This was when I > knew she really did fly. > There followed another circuit, and then the landing. The approach looked > good, even thought the wind didnt. The round out at 6 inches above the > ground was followed by the smoothest of landings. Some people, Taff, > amongst others seem to produce a perfect landing in less than favourable > conditions and I struggle to produce an acceptable landing in perfect > conditions. > This was just another day for Taff but clearly one I will not forget. > Im sure the next few weeks and indeed my first flight in G_CDBX will be > equally satisfying. > My thanks to everyone who has helped me in this project. > > Robert Marston > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:40:37 PM PST US From: "Tony Bale" Subject: Europa-List: G-CCUL Flight Test Latest --> Europa-List message posted by: "Tony Bale" Well folks, the last flight was completed by the test pilot yesterday with the 2 hour endurance and 8 circuits to get the landings in. The test pilot advised us of a bit of rough running halfway through the flight, but he was pretty sure it was carb ice, conditions were perfect for it in our neck of the woods. This brought the total flying time to about 5 1/4 hours all in. We are looking forward to receiving the lengthy report Paul is putting together with all the graphs and calcs to prove she pretty much does as she should, now it's down to the PFA for the permit issue. We don't run the Skydrive water manifold heater kit, what are the feelings in the community about it ? All the best Tony. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:59:44 PM PST US From: "Duncan McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Carb balancing - Differential presure gauage ? --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" For what you're looking for, go to: http://www.calamander.co.uk/twinmax/twinmaxmk2.htm which is a differential gauge that looks at both carbs simultaneously. Made in France and a bit expensive. I've no idea how well it works. Personally I've used a manometer that has a stainless steel rod in each arm, instead of mercury. Much safer, but doesn't work as well, is sensitive to dust making the rods stick slightly and needs to be held accurately upright. Details at http://www.carbtune.com/ But it was cheap! Quirks of the engine seem to preclude being able to balance the carbs across the rev. range; another compromise needed. However, if tickover speed is to be low enough to land into short strips, the balance needs to be good at idle speed. I've got no further with finding out what it is that causes the variation of balance; it may be tolerances in the pressed steel throttle arm and the way it is tightened on to the throttle spindle; I'll explain further if you haven't nodded off at this point. Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: Europa-List: Carb balancing - Differential presure gauage ? > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" > > Hi All, > > I was pondering this exercise over the weekend. I have the gauges supplied by Lockwood and I assume that this is what is recommended by Rotax. They don't work that great and several people have been having more success with manifold gauges from twin engine aircraft that have 2 needles sitting on top of each other. > > I was wondering if this could be done with a single gauge that has a center zero and maybe 5 ~ 10 psi either side. I haven't tired to locate such a gauge but I shouldn't think it would be too hard to find one. > > Anyone have any thought on the practicality of this idea. > > Paul > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:15:04 PM PST US From: rlborger Subject: Europa-List: RE: G-CCUL Flight Test Latest --> Europa-List message posted by: rlborger Tony, Thanks for the update. Be sure to post the flight test results as encouragement for the rest of us out here who are trying to make the list of the grinning flyers. You might consider posting the report on the europa owners ( http://www.europaowners.org ) site where you could include the graphs and charts as well. Have some great flying time in your new magic carpet, Bob Borger Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, 914, Airmaster C/S http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL (75%) Work on hold while I accumulate $$ to purchase the plexi, prop and other parts that I'll never get from EMIL or E(04). Meanwhile, working on Instrument, Commercial, CFI & CFII ratings for potential career change. 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208 Home: 940-497-2123 Cel: 817-992-1117 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:29:32 PM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Re: Europa-List: G-CCUL Flight Test Latest --> Europa-List message posted by: "Carl Pattinson" > We don't run the Skydrive water manifold heater kit, what are the feelings > in the community about it ? but he was pretty sure it was carb ice, Think you answered your own question. Can you really run the risk of carb icing for the sake of 200. Not a lot to pay for peace of mind. I am considering the ST option (electrically heated) as these are easier to retrofit (see latest PFA magazine) . To be fair we have never experienced what could be described as carb icing (2 years flying) but it dosent mean there wont be a first time. Carl G-LABS (classic Europa) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Bale" Subject: Europa-List: G-CCUL Flight Test Latest > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Tony Bale" > > Well folks, the last flight was completed by the test pilot yesterday with > the 2 hour endurance and 8 circuits to get the landings in. > The test pilot advised us of a bit of rough running halfway through the > flight, but he was pretty sure it was carb ice, conditions were perfect > for it in our neck of the woods. > > This brought the total flying time to about 5 1/4 hours all in. > > We are looking forward to receiving the lengthy report Paul is putting > together with all the graphs and calcs to prove she pretty much does as > she should, now it's down to the PFA for the permit issue. > > We don't run the Skydrive water manifold heater kit, what are the feelings > in the community about it ? > > All the best > > Tony. > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:05:03 PM PST US From: "Steve Crimm" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Carb balancing - Differential presure gauage ? --> Europa-List message posted by: "Steve Crimm" Here is a US vendor for the TwinMax http://www.adventuremotogear.com/ $89.95 plus $5.75 S&H Steve Crimm A058 N15JN -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Duncan McFadyean Subject: Re: Europa-List: Carb balancing - Differential presure gauage ? --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" --> For what you're looking for, go to: http://www.calamander.co.uk/twinmax/twinmaxmk2.htm which is a differential gauge that looks at both carbs simultaneously. Made in France and a bit expensive. I've no idea how well it works. Personally I've used a manometer that has a stainless steel rod in each arm, instead of mercury. Much safer, but doesn't work as well, is sensitive to dust making the rods stick slightly and needs to be held accurately upright. Details at http://www.carbtune.com/ But it was cheap! Quirks of the engine seem to preclude being able to balance the carbs across the rev. range; another compromise needed. However, if tickover speed is to be low enough to land into short strips, the balance needs to be good at idle speed. I've got no further with finding out what it is that causes the variation of balance; it may be tolerances in the pressed steel throttle arm and the way it is tightened on to the throttle spindle; I'll explain further if you haven't nodded off at this point. Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: Europa-List: Carb balancing - Differential presure gauage ? > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" > > Hi All, > > I was pondering this exercise over the weekend. I have the gauges supplied by Lockwood and I assume that this is what is recommended by Rotax. They don't work that great and several people have been having more success with manifold gauges from twin engine aircraft that have 2 needles sitting on top of each other. > > I was wondering if this could be done with a single gauge that has a center zero and maybe 5 ~ 10 psi either side. I haven't tired to locate such a gauge but I shouldn't think it would be too hard to find one. > > Anyone have any thought on the practicality of this idea. > > Paul > > advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:08:32 PM PST US From: "Duncan McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: G-CCUL Flight Test Latest --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" You'll need to fit two of these, which will take half of the output of the alternator! Duncan McF ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Re: Europa-List: G-CCUL Flight Test Latest > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Carl Pattinson" > > > We don't run the Skydrive water manifold heater kit, what are the feelings > > in the community about it ? > > but he was pretty sure it was carb ice, > > Think you answered your own question. Can you really run the risk of carb > icing for the sake of 200. Not a lot to pay for peace of mind. > > I am considering the ST option (electrically heated) as these are easier to > retrofit (see latest PFA magazine) . To be fair we have never experienced > what could be described as carb icing (2 years flying) but it dosent mean > there wont be a first time. > > Carl > G-LABS (classic Europa) > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tony Bale" > To: > Subject: Europa-List: G-CCUL Flight Test Latest > > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Tony Bale" > > > > Well folks, the last flight was completed by the test pilot yesterday with > > the 2 hour endurance and 8 circuits to get the landings in. > > The test pilot advised us of a bit of rough running halfway through the > > flight, but he was pretty sure it was carb ice, conditions were perfect > > for it in our neck of the woods. > > > > This brought the total flying time to about 5 1/4 hours all in. > > > > We are looking forward to receiving the lengthy report Paul is putting > > together with all the graphs and calcs to prove she pretty much does as > > she should, now it's down to the PFA for the permit issue. > > > > We don't run the Skydrive water manifold heater kit, what are the feelings > > in the community about it ? > > > > All the best > > > > Tony. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:23:26 PM PST US From: "Graham Higgins" Subject: Europa-List: lock nuts --> Europa-List message posted by: "Graham Higgins" From a different feeble non-engineering mind in OZ, but affected by the same weather and living life upside down, it eludes me as to how placing the half nut on the bolt first, at the required torque, REDUCES the load on the half nut. It seems to me that the same load borne by half the thread surface area means twice the load on those threads. Of the two methods discussed, it seems to me that neither method is completely satisfactory. The difficulty in both methods is allowing for the change in torque on the article being held by the first nut, by the addition of the second nut. If the first nut is correctly torqued, then addition of a second nut , regardless of whether full or half size,will increase that torque, if the first is kept stationary. If the second nut is tightened to some suitable torque, then the first is backed off to the same torque, that should produce the required torque on the article, but I admit in practice this is more art than science. Please educate me. Graham Higgins in OZ, (non flying, but feeling well enough to start planning repairs to my pranged Mono.) ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:49:08 PM PST US From: "Cliff Shaw" Subject: Re: Europa-List: lock nuts --> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" If the first nut is correctly torqued, then addition of a > second nut , regardless of whether full or half size,will increase that > torque, if the first is kept stationary. If the second nut is tightened to > some suitable torque, then the first is backed off to the same torque, > that > should produce the required torque on the article, but I admit in practice > this is more art than science. > Please educate me. Graham Higgins in OZ, > (non flying, but feeling well enough > to start planning repairs to my pranged Mono.) (I jsut can't stay out of this one) Get well fast Graham !!!! There are always two "right" ways to do something. In the school I came from the nuts wer to bup on the other way around. Because; The first nut is sized and torked for the load. It is doing the work. The second nust is added to "jam" the first nut to keep it in place. The jaming load is no where near the required load of the firt nut. Just another opinion ! Cliff Shaw 1041 Euclid ave. Edmonds, WA 98020 425 776 5555 http://www.europaowners.org/WileE ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:53:53 PM PST US From: Edward Gladstone Subject: Europa-List: Re:- Lock Knutts !! --> Europa-List message posted by: Edward Gladstone Message text written by INTERNET:europa-list@matronics.com > Ted, Would really appreciate an explanation of the reasoning behind this please. An intellectually handicapped mind would like to know ! With the half nut on first, I can see that the load on its threads are likely to be less but I can't even hazzard a guess as to why it matters which nut is held firm while the other is locked up. Regards Kingsley < Hi Kingsley, If you consider a section through the axis of the nut an bolt and greatly enlarge the zigzag line formed by cutting through the thread at the interface between the nut and bolt, you will see that, when the nut is tightened, the pressure will be on the sloping face of the thread towards the bolt head - - lets call this the "zig" and there will be a gap on the rear facing slope of the thread due to the clearance between nut & bolt - - lets call this the "zag". If the full size nut is put on first and tightened to the specified torque and then the half size nut is put on and tightened, to try and lock it, it will tend to push the full nut forward thereby reducing its pressure on the bolts zig face and could eventually force it so far forward that it reduces the pressure to zero and may even produce a gap on the zig face AND zag face. The full bolt is then floating free and is acting as nothing more than a washer !! In doing so you will invariably have had to apply greater torque. The full tension in the bolt is then being taken by the half nut - - which it was not designed to carry and could eventually strip its threads. There will also be a gap on the zag face which will allow the nut to slacken with any vibration. If the half nut is put on first and tightened to the correct torque and then the full nut is put on and tightened to the correct torque, both nuts then have pressure on the zig face, If the full nut is then held stationary (to maintain the correct torque and tension in the bolt) and the half nut is backed off (slackened) sufficiently for its pressure to be removed from the zig face and transferred to the zag face it will then be jammed against the full nut. The full nut will be holding its full designed load and be locked by the half nut - - - - just like when you put two nuts on a threaded rod and tighten one against the other. There is pressure on the zig face of the full nut and pressure on the zag face of the half nut thus there is no slackness and vibration will not loosen them. The newsreels of the Potters Bar rail crash in England a few years ago - - which was caused by the bolts becoming loose on the points - - - showed a close up of the offending points and I noticed that the remaining bolts were locked with half nuts on the wrong way round. I pointed this out to the investigating team and they stated that they would consider this during their investigation. It is difficult to explain in words and if it is still not clear and you, or anyone else, would like further details I can send you the detailed drawings that I sent to the Potters Bar Investigation Team. Regards Ted ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:49:04 PM PST US From: Dww0708@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: lock nuts --> Europa-List message posted by: Dww0708@aol.com ON RADIAL ENGINES THE CYLINDER HOLD DOWN PALNUTS GO ON LAST. I LIKE TO PAINT WITNESS STRIPES ON STUFF THAT I REALY WONDER ABOUT. LOVE READING THE PERSPECTIVES , DAVID ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:11:29 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: RE: europa parts wanted From: "WEC" 2.60 REPLY_TO_EMPTY Reply-To: is empty --> Europa-List message posted by: "WEC" I have the LG02A here in my hot little hand. It is waiting for a "ship to" address so it can be in your hanbds. ---------------- This Email contains Photos or Attachments located at the following link: http://www.europaowners.org/viewtopic.php?p=4524#4524 ---------------- Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/