Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:19 AM - Re: Re:- Lock Knutts !! (MICHAEL PARKIN)
2. 12:45 AM - Re: lock nuts (R.C.Harrison)
3. 01:12 AM - Re: Carb balancing - Differential presure gauage ? (Richard Holder)
4. 03:28 AM - Re: europa parts wanted (SteveD)
5. 05:26 AM - Re: Carb balancing - Differential presure gauage ? (Carl Pattinson)
6. 05:28 AM - Photo of my carb balancer. (Carl Pattinson)
7. 05:38 AM - Re: G-CCUL Flight Test Latest (Carl Pattinson)
8. 06:27 PM - Re: Re:- Lock Knutts !! (Kingsley Hurst)
9. 08:57 PM - Re: credit card refund of europe kit deposit (Lee Boon Leong)
10. 10:57 PM - lock nuts (Graham Higgins)
11. 11:23 PM - Fw: lock nuts (Graham Higgins)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re:- Lock Knutts !! |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "MICHAEL PARKIN" <mikenjulie.parkin@btopenworld.com>
Ted,
Eureka - I now understand.
An excellent explanation - thanks.
regards,
MP
----- Original Message -----
From: "Edward Gladstone" <Ted_Gladstone@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: Europa-List: Re:- Lock Knutts !!
>
> It is difficult to explain in words and if it is still not clear and you,
> or anyone else, would like further details I can send you the detailed
> drawings that I sent to the Potters Bar Investigation Team.
>
>
> Regards
>
> Ted
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 2
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Hi! Cliff.
Sorry mate! Ted is quite correct and text books will confirm his
statements so you have upside down thinking also I can't accept that
there is ALWAYS two right ways of doing things, I can think of many that
don't have such.
However you should ask Ted ....what if the required torque and load is
greater than the thread of the half nut will allow in the first place?
He'll probably say put a full nut on and follow it down with another
full nut?
BTW I always understood from text books that the locking action was
produced by the threads of the two nuts producing a wedge effect on the
bolt threads with forces now acting on both the zig and zag faces
therefore preventing either nut moving since the combined loads on each
of the threads would be greater than the force needed to undo either
separately?
IMHO this is what a "STIFF NUT" does in that it is a slightly deformed
thread and is therefore applied to foreface and backface of the bolt
thread making the same wedge application producing excess friction but
in one nut.
Get your minds round that then!
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI /Jabiru 3300
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cliff Shaw
Subject: Re: Europa-List: lock nuts
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" <flyinggpa@comcast.net>
If the first nut is correctly torqued, then addition of a
> second nut , regardless of whether full or half size,will increase
that
> torque, if the first is kept stationary. If the second nut is
tightened to
> some suitable torque, then the first is backed off to the same torque,
> that
> should produce the required torque on the article, but I admit in
practice
> this is more art than science.
> Please educate me. Graham Higgins in OZ,
> (non flying, but feeling well
enough
> to start planning repairs to my pranged Mono.)
(I jsut can't stay out of this one) Get well fast Graham !!!!
There are always two "right" ways to do something. In the school I came
from the nuts wer to bup on the other way around. Because; The first
nut
is sized and torked for the load. It is doing the work. The second nust
is
added to "jam" the first nut to keep it in place. The jaming load is no
where near the required load of the firt nut.
Just another opinion !
Cliff Shaw
1041 Euclid ave.
Edmonds, WA 98020
425 776 5555
http://www.europaowners.org/WileE
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Carb balancing - Differential presure gauage ? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder <rholder@avnet.co.uk>
> Quirks of the engine seem to preclude being able to balance the carbs
> across the rev. range; another compromise needed. However, if tickover speed
> is to be low enough to land into short strips, the balance needs to be good
> at idle speed.
Duncan, I would disagree with this.
An engine runs at cruise power almost all the time. So the speed at which
you want the best balance is cruise speed - 5000 rpm.
With a car it is possible to balance at tick-over (idle to US folks) and at
a specific rev count, as there is usually a flexible bit in the linkages.
On the Rotax the idle is defined exactly by the position of the throttle
cables (as they are tight at idle) and so a balance at 5000 defines the
balance everywhere else.
> I've got no further with finding out what it is that causes the variation of
> balance; it may be tolerances in the pressed steel throttle arm and the way
> it is tightened on to the throttle spindle; I'll explain further if you
> haven't nodded off at this point.
I think the variation from day to day is caused by the movement of the
throttle cable within the outer cable as it goes round the circuituitous
route required. Somehow a shorter and straighter route is required. Or a
single cable connected to a linkage across the engine. Unfortunately the
carbs are offset and so a cross linkage would be difficult to do.
It is a shame that Rotax didn't put on a single bigger carb with a central
location like "Lycoming". No carb balance problems then !
On the other matter discussed this morning - carb ice :
I have occasionally (normally after 40 minutes or more) had small hiccups in
the running of my 912S. It also happens when reducing power for the descent.
My (totally unproven) theory is that this is small amounts of ice forming in
the carb, then it breaks off and the engine coughs, spits out steam and then
continues. Although it is not nice I have ignored it to date. It has however
been cold recently so I fitted a temp probe to the outside of the carb body
(blutak !). It went below freezing at one point and so I decided to act. The
SkyDrive kit is now on - I am waiting for the PFA sign-off inspection
(hopefully) tomorrow.
This seems to be an XS firewall forward thing. (More totally unproven
arguments follow). With the classic fwf the radiators are at the front of
the cowling. This probably generates enough hot air to keep the carbs warm.
In the XS fwf a good chunk of this heat just passes along the cooling duct
underneath the engine, leaving the carbs colder.
Thus in winter the Classic is a better arrangement in respect of carb icing,
and in summer the XS provides better cooling !
So I will be trying my carb heater kit soon, and I hope the annoying slight
misfire will be eradicated. If not it will have been another 200 thrown
away on this plane :-(
Richard
Richard F.W. Holder 01279 842804 (POTS)
Bell House, Bell Lane, 01279 842942 (fax)
Widford, Ware, Herts, 07860 367423 (mobile)
SG12 8SH email : richard.holder@avnet.co.uk
++++++++ Please note new email address ++++++++
Europa Classic Tri-gear : G-OWWW, High Cross
PA-28-181 : Piper Archer : G-JANA, EGSG (Stapleford)
Message 4
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Subject: | RE: europa parts wanted |
2.60 REPLY_TO_EMPTY Reply-To: is empty
--> Europa-List message posted by: "SteveD" <Post2Forum@comcast.net>
Good deal! I'll send $ and address today.....
Thanks Cliff,
Steved
----------------
Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Carb balancing - Differential presure gauage ? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Carl Pattinson" <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
As we understand it this is basically correct.
Balance the engine at the operational RPM 4000-5000RPM. At this speed the
carbs should be feeding off the needle jets (as opposed to the main jets
which come into play at full throttle).
This usually leaves the carbs slightly out of balance at idle but any rough
running can be corrected using the mixture screws. The problem is adjusting
these while the engine is running. I have manufactured a tool that enables
me to connect a small socket spanner to the adjusting hex and turn the screw
without having to disconnect the carbs or remove the lower cowling.
Carl
G-LABS
From: "Richard Holder" <rholder@avnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Carb balancing - Differential presure gauage ?
> --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder <rholder@avnet.co.uk>
>
>> Quirks of the engine seem to preclude being able to balance the carbs
>> across the rev. range; another compromise needed. However, if tickover
>> speed
>> is to be low enough to land into short strips, the balance needs to be
>> good
>> at idle speed.
>
> Duncan, I would disagree with this.
>
> An engine runs at cruise power almost all the time. So the speed at which
> you want the best balance is cruise speed - 5000 rpm.
>
> With a car it is possible to balance at tick-over (idle to US folks) and
> at
> a specific rev count, as there is usually a flexible bit in the linkages.
>
> On the Rotax the idle is defined exactly by the position of the throttle
> cables (as they are tight at idle) and so a balance at 5000 defines the
> balance everywhere else.
>
>> I've got no further with finding out what it is that causes the variation
>> of
>> balance; it may be tolerances in the pressed steel throttle arm and the
>> way
>> it is tightened on to the throttle spindle; I'll explain further if you
>> haven't nodded off at this point.
>
> I think the variation from day to day is caused by the movement of the
> throttle cable within the outer cable as it goes round the circuituitous
> route required. Somehow a shorter and straighter route is required. Or a
> single cable connected to a linkage across the engine. Unfortunately the
> carbs are offset and so a cross linkage would be difficult to do.
>
> It is a shame that Rotax didn't put on a single bigger carb with a central
> location like "Lycoming". No carb balance problems then !
>
> On the other matter discussed this morning - carb ice :
>
> I have occasionally (normally after 40 minutes or more) had small hiccups
> in
> the running of my 912S. It also happens when reducing power for the
> descent.
> My (totally unproven) theory is that this is small amounts of ice forming
> in
> the carb, then it breaks off and the engine coughs, spits out steam and
> then
> continues. Although it is not nice I have ignored it to date. It has
> however
> been cold recently so I fitted a temp probe to the outside of the carb
> body
> (blutak !). It went below freezing at one point and so I decided to act.
> The
> SkyDrive kit is now on - I am waiting for the PFA sign-off inspection
> (hopefully) tomorrow.
>
> This seems to be an XS firewall forward thing. (More totally unproven
> arguments follow). With the classic fwf the radiators are at the front of
> the cowling. This probably generates enough hot air to keep the carbs
> warm.
> In the XS fwf a good chunk of this heat just passes along the cooling duct
> underneath the engine, leaving the carbs colder.
>
> Thus in winter the Classic is a better arrangement in respect of carb
> icing,
> and in summer the XS provides better cooling !
>
> So I will be trying my carb heater kit soon, and I hope the annoying
> slight
> misfire will be eradicated. If not it will have been another 200 thrown
> away on this plane :-(
>
> Richard
> Richard F.W. Holder 01279 842804 (POTS)
> Bell House, Bell Lane, 01279 842942 (fax)
> Widford, Ware, Herts, 07860 367423 (mobile)
> SG12 8SH email : richard.holder@avnet.co.uk
> ++++++++ Please note new email address ++++++++
> Europa Classic Tri-gear : G-OWWW, High Cross
> PA-28-181 : Piper Archer : G-JANA, EGSG (Stapleford)
>
>
>
Message 6
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Subject: | Photo of my carb balancer. |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Carl Pattinson" <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
At present this is out on loan to a friend. I should have it back this weekend
and I will take the appropriate photos and mail them to all concerned.
Sorry for the delay.
I will also include a photo of my idle adjuster tool.
Regards,
Carl
G-LABS
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: G-CCUL Flight Test Latest |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Carl Pattinson" <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
You are absolutely right Duncan, but in our case we dont have very much
power going elsewhere. Strobes and AH.
Just cant be bothered to drain the cooling system and all that.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: G-CCUL Flight Test Latest
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean"
> <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
>
> You'll need to fit two of these, which will take half of the output of the
> alternator!
>
> Duncan McF
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: G-CCUL Flight Test Latest
>
>
>> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Carl Pattinson"
> <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
>>
>> > We don't run the Skydrive water manifold heater kit, what are the
> feelings
>> > in the community about it ?
>>
>> but he was pretty sure it was carb ice,
>>
>> Think you answered your own question. Can you really run the risk of
>> carb
>> icing for the sake of 200. Not a lot to pay for peace of mind.
>>
>> I am considering the ST option (electrically heated) as these are easier
> to
>> retrofit (see latest PFA magazine) . To be fair we have never experienced
>> what could be described as carb icing (2 years flying) but it dosent mean
>> there wont be a first time.
>>
>> Carl
>> G-LABS (classic Europa)
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Tony Bale" <tony.bale@virgin.net>
>> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
>> Subject: Europa-List: G-CCUL Flight Test Latest
>>
>>
>> > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Tony Bale" <tony.bale@virgin.net>
>> >
>> > Well folks, the last flight was completed by the test pilot yesterday
> with
>> > the 2 hour endurance and 8 circuits to get the landings in.
>> > The test pilot advised us of a bit of rough running halfway through the
>> > flight, but he was pretty sure it was carb ice, conditions were perfect
>> > for it in our neck of the woods.
>> >
>> > This brought the total flying time to about 5 1/4 hours all in.
>> >
>> > We are looking forward to receiving the lengthy report Paul is putting
>> > together with all the graphs and calcs to prove she pretty much does as
>> > she should, now it's down to the PFA for the permit issue.
>> >
>> > We don't run the Skydrive water manifold heater kit, what are the
> feelings
>> > in the community about it ?
>> >
>> > All the best
>> >
>> > Tony.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 8
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Subject: | Re:- Lock Knutts !! |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" <hurstkr@growzone.com.au>
Ted,
Many thanks for your detailed explanation. When I don't understand
something properly, what I learn tends to go through my mind like a
sieve but on the other hand, when I do understand properly, my retention
is good so hence my appreciation of your time and effort.
Regards
Kingsley
Do not archive
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: credit card refund of europe kit deposit |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Lee Boon Leong <docblee@streamyx.com>
Wish there is equally good news from REDMAN NICHOLS! Looks like they
have gone to sleep! EMIL never delivered the goods after claiming the
aircraft was in a container awaiting shipment from December 03 to July
04 following full payment for it! I am sure there is grandscale fraud
involved!
Boon
Malaysia
Message 10
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Graham Higgins" <ghiggins@norex.com.au>
Dear Ted,
Thank you for your explanaton. I had drawn the large zigs and zags as you
suggest. I understand you are refering to the bolt thread in your discussion
below.
It seems to me that the size of the nut does not really matter, because the
same problems apply to both full and half nuts, but for the sake of clarity
in this discussion I will continue to consider the lock nut as the half nut.
You suggest the half nut is applied first, to the correct torque, then the
full nut, also to the correct torque.At this point the half nut is just
about floating, as the pressure on the zig face of the bolt thread is
approaching zero.As the half nut is backed off, some of the turn will be
just taking up the slack in the thread, and this does not change anything.
But as it is backed off further, it is putting pressure on the zag face of
the bolt. This must also reduce pressure on the article being held, as the
torque on the full nut is reduced by this amount, and the torque on the full
nut is increased by the same amount.
What is unclear to me is whether this reduction is significant, as the
article being held is not under the correct pressure.
The danger of having a floating half nut, thus negating any locking effect,
is still present, if it is not backed off far enough to create a definite
lock on the full nut.
It seems to me that as the half nut is being backed off, and just starting
to lock on the zag face, you do not want it to move from that position on
the bolt . This would require then turning both nuts towards each other ,
the half nut twice as much as the full nut, to create the lock without
changing position on the bolt, and maintain the correct pressure on the
article being held.(If using both full nuts, move them together equally)
If the thread pressure produced by the required torque to hold the article
is P1, and the thread pressure produced by the locking action is P2, it can
be seen that the outer(full) nut carries P1+ P2, and the inner(half) nut
carries only P2, which is far preferable to the reverse arrangement having
the half nut on second,carrying P1+P2.
The art is judging how firmly to lock the two nuts together!
Thank you, I now consider myself educated.
Regards Graham Higgins, in OZ.
Hi Kingsley,
If you consider a section through the axis of the nut an bolt and greatly
enlarge the zigzag line formed by cutting through the thread at the
interface between the nut and bolt, you will see that, when the nut is
tightened, the pressure will be on the sloping face of the thread towards
the bolt head - - lets call this the "zig" and there will be a gap on the
rear facing slope of the thread due to the clearance between nut & bolt - -
lets call this the "zag".
If the full size nut is put on first and tightened to the specified torque
and then the half size nut is put on and tightened, to try and lock it, it
will tend to push the full nut forward thereby reducing its pressure on the
bolts zig face and could eventually force it so far forward that it reduces
the pressure to zero and may even produce a gap on the zig face AND zag
face. The full bolt is then floating free and is acting as nothing more
than a washer !! In doing so you will invariably have had to apply
greater torque. The full tension in the bolt is then being taken by the
half nut - - which it was not designed to carry and could eventually strip
its threads. There will also be a gap on the zag face which will allow the
nut to slacken with any vibration.
If the half nut is put on first and tightened to the correct torque and
then the full nut is put on and tightened to the correct torque, both nuts
then have pressure on the zig face, If the full nut is then held
stationary (to maintain the correct torque and tension in the bolt) and the
half nut is backed off (slackened) sufficiently for its pressure to be
removed from the zig face and transferred to the zag face it will then be
jammed against the full nut. The full nut will be holding its full
designed load and be locked by the half nut - - - - just like when you put
two nuts on a threaded rod and tighten one against the other. There is
pressure on the zig face of the full nut and pressure on the zag face of
the half nut thus there is no slackness and vibration will not loosen them.
... Ted.
Message 11
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Graham Higgins" <ghiggins@norex.com.au>
Sorry, I note a typo in the article I just posted. Hope this is clearer.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Graham Higgins" <ghiggins@norex.com.au>
Subject: lock nuts
> Dear Ted,
> Thank you for your explanaton. I had drawn the large zigs and zags as you
> suggest. I understand you are refering to the bolt thread in your
discussion
> below.
> It seems to me that the size of the nut does not really matter, because
the
> same problems apply to both full and half nuts, but for the sake of
clarity
> in this discussion I will continue to consider the lock nut as the half
nut.
> You suggest the half nut is applied first, to the correct torque, then
the
> full nut, also to the correct torque.At this point the half nut is just
> about floating, as the pressure on the zig face of the bolt thread is
> approaching zero.As the half nut is backed off, some of the turn will be
> just taking up the slack in the thread, and this does not change anything.
> But as it is backed off further, it is putting pressure on the zag face
of
> the bolt. This must also reduce pressure on the article being held, and
the pressure on the full
> nut threads is increased by the same amount.
> What is unclear to me is whether this reduction is significant, as the
> article being held is under less than the correct pressure.
> The danger of having a floating half nut, thus negating any locking
effect,
> is still present, if it is not backed off far enough to create a definite
> lock on the full nut.
> It seems to me that as the half nut is being backed off, and just starting
> to lock on the zag face, you do not want it to move from that position on
> the bolt . This would require then turning both nuts towards each other ,
> the half nut twice as much as the full nut, to create the lock without
> changing position on the bolt, and maintain the correct pressure on the
> article being held.(If using both full nuts, move them together equally)
> If the thread pressure produced by the required torque to hold the article
> is P1, and the thread pressure produced by the locking action is P2, it
can
> be seen that the outer(full) nut carries P1+ P2, and the inner(half) nut
> carries only P2, which is far preferable to the reverse arrangement having
> the half nut on second,carrying P1+P2.
> The art is judging how firmly to lock the two nuts together!
> Thank you, I now consider myself educated.
> Regards Graham Higgins, in OZ.
>
>
> Hi Kingsley,
>
>
> If you consider a section through the axis of the nut an bolt and greatly
> enlarge the zigzag line formed by cutting through the thread at the
> interface between the nut and bolt, you will see that, when the nut is
> tightened, the pressure will be on the sloping face of the thread towards
> the bolt head - - lets call this the "zig" and there will be a gap on the
> rear facing slope of the thread due to the clearance between nut &
bolt - -
> lets call this the "zag".
>
> If the full size nut is put on first and tightened to the specified torque
> and then the half size nut is put on and tightened, to try and lock it, it
> will tend to push the full nut forward thereby reducing its pressure on
the
> bolts zig face and could eventually force it so far forward that it
reduces
> the pressure to zero and may even produce a gap on the zig face AND zag
> face. The full bolt is then floating free and is acting as nothing more
> than a washer !! In doing so you will invariably have had to apply
> greater torque. The full tension in the bolt is then being taken by the
> half nut - - which it was not designed to carry and could eventually strip
> its threads. There will also be a gap on the zag face which will allow
the
> nut to slacken with any vibration.
>
> If the half nut is put on first and tightened to the correct torque and
> then the full nut is put on and tightened to the correct torque, both nuts
> then have pressure on the zig face, If the full nut is then held
> stationary (to maintain the correct torque and tension in the bolt) and
the
> half nut is backed off (slackened) sufficiently for its pressure to be
> removed from the zig face and transferred to the zag face it will then be
> jammed against the full nut. The full nut will be holding its full
> designed load and be locked by the half nut - - - - just like when you put
> two nuts on a threaded rod and tighten one against the other. There is
> pressure on the zig face of the full nut and pressure on the zag face of
> the half nut thus there is no slackness and vibration will not loosen
them.
>
> ... Ted.
>
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