Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 09:04 AM - Re: credit card refund of europe kit deposit (Lmorgan822@aol.com)
2. 10:23 AM - Re: Props (Henk Roelofs)
3. 10:34 AM - Re: Props (Mark Burton)
4. 11:18 AM - Re: Props (Trevpond@aol.com)
5. 12:51 PM - Re: Props (Duncan McFadyean)
6. 01:21 PM - Re: Props (Gerry Holland)
7. 01:23 PM - lock nuts (Edward Gladstone)
8. 01:30 PM - Which cable to use (Mike Gamble)
9. 02:26 PM - Re: lock nuts (Chuck Popenoe)
10. 02:42 PM - Re: lock nuts (Cliff Shaw)
11. 04:10 PM - Re: lock nuts (R.C.Harrison)
12. 04:39 PM - Re: lock nuts (Edward Gladstone)
13. 06:31 PM - over-voltage from alternator (kenneth b. carpenter)
14. 08:22 PM - Re: over-voltage from alternator (Cliff Shaw)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: credit card refund of europe kit deposit |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Lmorgan822@aol.com
Same thing happened to me. Mine was in a container from Feb to July. Fraud is
an understatement. I think there was collusion between EMIL and Redmond Nichols.
They were NEVER responsive.
Message 2
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--> Europa-List message posted by: Henk Roelofs <henk@loginet.nl>
At 11:47 16-1-05 -0500, "Jim Butcher" <europa@triton.net> wrote:
>Also, anyone getting responses from Martin at Airmaster? Airmaster is
>starting to be quiet like EMIL did at the end.
Hi Jim,
Last contact with Airmaster was by email Jan, 17.
They require funds to be transferred prior to shipping of the prop.
They can't do cash on delivery.
We're not sure what to do next.
Regards,
Henk & Bart
Europa #264
Message 3
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--> Europa-List message posted by: Mark Burton <markb@ordern.com>
> Last contact with Airmaster was by email Jan, 17.
> They require funds to be transferred prior to shipping of the prop.
> They can't do cash on delivery.
> We're not sure what to do next.
Buy an Arplast or a Woodcomp prop instead and spend the money you
saved on beer.
Just kidding,
Mark
Message 4
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--> Europa-List message posted by: Trevpond@aol.com
Just got my Airmaster on time and perfect.
Trev Pond
Kit 598
Message 5
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
<<.....spend the money you
> saved on beer.
>>
Or one of those nice constant speed controllers to go with the prop!
Duncan McF.
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Burton" <markb@ordern.com>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Props
> --> Europa-List message posted by: Mark Burton <markb@ordern.com>
>
>
> > Last contact with Airmaster was by email Jan, 17.
> > They require funds to be transferred prior to shipping of the prop.
> > They can't do cash on delivery.
> > We're not sure what to do next.
>
> Buy an Arplast or a Woodcomp prop instead and spend the money you
> saved on beer.
>
> Just kidding,
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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--> Europa-List message posted by: Gerry Holland <gnholland@onetel.com>
> <<.....spend the money you saved on beer.
> Or one of those nice constant speed controllers to go with the prop!
And still have money left for beer!
Regards
Gerry
Message 7
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--> Europa-List message posted by: Edward Gladstone <Ted_Gladstone@compuserve.com>
Message text written by INTERNET:europa-list@matronics.com
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Graham Higgins" <ghiggins@norex.com.au>
>
>- - - - - - - - ->
> You suggest the half nut is applied first, to the correct torque, then
the
> full nut, also to the correct torque.At this point the half nut is just
> about floating, as the pressure on the zig face of the bolt thread is
> approaching zero.As the half nut is backed off, some of the turn will be
> just taking up the slack in the thread, and this does not change
anything.
> But as it is backed off further, it is putting pressure on the zag face
of
> the bolt. This must also reduce pressure on the article being held, and
the pressure on the full
> nut threads is increased by the same amount.
> What is unclear to me is whether this reduction is significant, as the
> article being held is under less than the correct pressure.
> The danger of having a floating half nut, thus negating any locking
effect,
> - - - - - - - - ->
>
Hi Graham,
When you apply the correct torque to the nut you are actually stretching
the bolt to provide the correct design tension in the bolt ( it is
actually amazing just how much stretch occurs in the bolt - - - try taking
a 4 or 5M bolt of about 2 & 1/2" long, slide a 2" thick wall tube or a
stack of larger nuts or washers over it, finger tighten a nut down on it
and measure the length of the bolt with a vernier (or preferably digital)
caliper. Then tighten the nut with a spanner and measure the length of
the bolt again - - you will be surprised by how much it has stretched !!)
Thus, when you back off the half thickness nut to apply pressure against
the full nut, although you increase the pressure on the zig face of the
full nut, as long as the full nut has not turned, the stretch in the
bolt, and therefore the tension in the bolt will not have changed. The
article will still be held at the correct pressure.
Ted
Message 8
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Subject: | Which cable to use |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Mike Gamble" <mp.gamble@virgin.net>
Is PVF cable just as good as Tefzel.? Should we be using it in our aircraft?
Its a lot cheaper!
Is there one guage of cable that we can use for most purposes as long as it can
cope with the current capacity required by the largest consumer?
Mike Gamble
XS Mono 440
Message 9
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Chuck Popenoe" <cpops@verizon.net>
I've been following this thread and haven't been convinced by the arguments.
So, as an curious experimental scientist, I happen to have in my lab a
Skidmore-Wilhelm tensile test device, capable of measuring the tensile load
on a bolt quite accurately. I placed a 1/2-13 bolt in the device and with a
fitting nut, torqued it to 6000 lbf measured tensile force. I then placed
another 1/2" nut on top and torqued it down as a locknut. The tensile force
on the bolt did not change--remained at 6000 lbf. Next, I loosened the
locknut and tightened it to snug condition, and while holding the locknut
fixed, backed off the lower nut to lock the pair. The bolt tensile preload
decreased to 5000 lbf. I repeated the set of experiments again, with the
same result. Q.E.D.! This little experiment confirmed my suspicions that
the locking nut should remain on top. Please tell me if am I doing
something wrong?
Pops
A036 -- on hold at the moment.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Edward
Gladstone
Subject: Europa-List: lock nuts
--> Europa-List message posted by: Edward Gladstone
--> <Ted_Gladstone@compuserve.com>
Message text written by INTERNET:europa-list@matronics.com
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Graham Higgins"
--> <ghiggins@norex.com.au>
>
>- - - - - - - - ->
> You suggest the half nut is applied first, to the correct torque,
>then
the
> full nut, also to the correct torque.At this point the half nut is
> just about floating, as the pressure on the zig face of the bolt
> thread is approaching zero.As the half nut is backed off, some of the
> turn will be just taking up the slack in the thread, and this does not
> change
anything.
> But as it is backed off further, it is putting pressure on the zag
> face
of
> the bolt. This must also reduce pressure on the article being held,
> and
the pressure on the full
> nut threads is increased by the same amount.
> What is unclear to me is whether this reduction is significant, as the
> article being held is under less than the correct pressure. The danger
> of having a floating half nut, thus negating any locking
effect,
> - - - - - - - - ->
>
Hi Graham,
When you apply the correct torque to the nut you are actually stretching the
bolt to provide the correct design tension in the bolt ( it is actually
amazing just how much stretch occurs in the bolt - - - try taking a 4 or 5M
bolt of about 2 & 1/2" long, slide a 2" thick wall tube or a stack of
larger nuts or washers over it, finger tighten a nut down on it and measure
the length of the bolt with a vernier (or preferably digital)
caliper. Then tighten the nut with a spanner and measure the length of
the bolt again - - you will be surprised by how much it has stretched !!)
Thus, when you back off the half thickness nut to apply pressure against
the full nut, although you increase the pressure on the zig face of the
full nut, as long as the full nut has not turned, the stretch in the
bolt, and therefore the tension in the bolt will not have changed. The
article will still be held at the correct pressure.
Ted
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 10
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" <flyinggpa@comcast.net>
> decreased to 5000 lbf. I repeated the set of experiments again, with the
> same result. Q.E.D.! This little experiment confirmed my suspicions
> that
> the locking nut should remain on top. Please tell me if am I doing
> something wrong?
>
> Pops
> A036 -- on hold at the moment.
Thanks !!!
Cliff Shaw
1041 Euclid ave.
Edmonds, WA 98020
425 776 5555
http://www.europaowners.org/WileE
IMHO There are much better ways to stop a nut from loosing than a jam nut
!!! The only place a jam nut is to be used is when there is no load on the
first threaded devise. (rod ends)
Message 11
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Hi! Chuck
Since you are now testing all the theory that is suggested please test
what is claimed to be the correct procedure........ Torque up to full
load a lock nut first measuring very accurately the elongation of the
bolt. Then apply the main nut and torque it up to the same torque on top
of the lock nut. Check the elongation of the bolt (it should be the
same). Then holding the main nut steady back off the lock nut to the
underside of the main nut, and you should find that the elongation
hasn't changed.
The point to all this is that when you torque up nuts onto bolts the
working tensile strength of the bolt is the objective you are trying to
always replicate. It is easier to get repeat tensile strain on a bolt by
specifying the torque on the nut than to fanny about measuring the
loaded length of all bolts individually.
If you under tighten nuts the bolts will obviously not achieve their
design objective and remain elastic. Correctly loaded bolts within their
design loads will also remain elastic.
However should you over tighten then the bolt will eventually get to
its yield point where it starts to "waist" and it gets progressively
considerably longer without any useful increase in load until it breaks.
Bolts that have entered their yield area are plastic and do not return
to their original length when loosened hence they are scrap.
You will find that the vast proportion of bolts on the Europa are
designed to be in shear not tension hence they are not generally torqued
up.
It's only necessary for such finite tensile requirements on highly
stressed items such as engine compartment and fire wall forward.
Some applications can subject the bolts to over load in service by the
nature of the application. For instance the bolts holding a crane slew
ring together are highly stressed and in a very critical operation apart
from the elastic considerations the repetitive loading and unloading
causes a metallurgical change in their composition called WORK
HARDENING, at regulated periods these have to be considered "life
expired" scrapped and replaced with new.
So one reason for torquing bolts is to control against over tightening
as well as undertightening since as you will see above you could finish
up with condemned bolts.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa 337 MKI/Jabiru 3300
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck
Popenoe
Subject: RE: Europa-List: lock nuts
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Chuck Popenoe" <cpops@verizon.net>
I've been following this thread and haven't been convinced by the
arguments.
So, as an curious experimental scientist, I happen to have in my lab a
Skidmore-Wilhelm tensile test device, capable of measuring the tensile
load
on a bolt quite accurately. I placed a 1/2-13 bolt in the device and
with a
fitting nut, torqued it to 6000 lbf measured tensile force. I then
placed
another 1/2" nut on top and torqued it down as a locknut. The tensile
force
on the bolt did not change--remained at 6000 lbf. Next, I loosened the
locknut and tightened it to snug condition, and while holding the
locknut
fixed, backed off the lower nut to lock the pair. The bolt tensile
preload
decreased to 5000 lbf. I repeated the set of experiments again, with
the
same result. Q.E.D.! This little experiment confirmed my suspicions
that
the locking nut should remain on top. Please tell me if am I doing
something wrong?
Pops
A036 -- on hold at the moment.
Message 12
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--> Europa-List message posted by: Edward Gladstone <Ted_Gladstone@compuserve.com>
Message text written by INTERNET:europa-list@matronics.com
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Chuck Popenoe" <cpops@verizon.net>
>-- - - - - >
>Next, I loosened the locknut and tightened it to snug condition, and while
holding the locknut
>fixed, backed off the lower nut to lock the pair. The bolt tensile
preload decreased to 5000 lbf. <
> - - - - >
.
Hi Chuck,
This is exactly as I would have expected - - - - the tension in the bolt
is produced by the stretching of the bolt by applying torque to the nut.
When you loosened the locknut and tightened it to a snug condition (and
thus a lesser tension) you then reduced the stretch in the bolt when you
backed off the lower nut to lock the pair.
I suspect that in you first half of your experiment the nuts were not
properly locked - - To provide the correct lock there has to be a wedge
effect between the two nuts and to do this by tightening down the second
nut you would have to push the first nut further along the bolt to transfer
the pressure from the zig to the zag face. To do this you would have to
apply a far greater torque than that applied to the first nut. this would
mean that the bolt would be stretched further & therefor I would expect the
tension in the bolt to have increased.
Try the second half of your experiment by applying the correct torque to
the second nut and hold it stationary (thus keeping the stretch the same)
while you back off the first nut. In backing off the first nut it
does not move along the bolt, it only transfers the pressure from the zig
to the zag face of the thread to produce the wedge action.
By the way - - - the method that I have described as the correct method is
not my pet idea - - - as a retired professional engineer it was drummed
into me as an apprentice and again when I studied for my Mechanical
Engineering Degree many years ago.
With the development of the modern "stiff" nuts and other locking aids the
basic stuff seems to have been forgotten.
Ted
Message 13
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Subject: | over-voltage from alternator |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "kenneth b. carpenter" <kbcarpenter@comcast.net>
I have experienced the alternator over charging the system. When revving up the
engine, it goes up to 17 volts. Drop back to idle and the voltage drops back
to 13.5V. It has done it rarely for a moment or two when first starting the
engine. Then it did not recur in flight. Yesterday it went up to 17V. while
in cruise. I reduced the RPM to about 4500 and the voltage went back to normal.
I returned to the field with no detectable harm to anything. All the electronics
will take 12-24V so they were not harmed. The overvoltage did not last
long enough to harm the battery.
Anyone else had this problem? Do I need a new voltage regulator? I plan to check
connections on the battery and such to see if something is loose.
Ken Carpenter
N 9XS 914 Mono
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: over-voltage from alternator |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" <flyinggpa@comcast.net>
Ken
Electronics I can help with ( jam nuts are a different story. I am "up-side
down" ) If you have good electrical connections all around, the regulator
is the problem.
The connection I would be suspicious of are the ones coming off the
regulator to the battery. You may be seeing a voltage that is trying to
compensate for a high resistance current path to the battery. The only
regulator problems I have heard of are sagging off of the charge voltage
(lower).
Good luck, and let us all know what you do to fix it. Thanks
Cliff Shaw
1041 Euclid ave.
Edmonds, WA 98020
425 776 5555
http://www.europaowners.org/WileE
b. carpenter" <kbcarpenter@comcast.net>
> Anyone else had this problem? Do I need a new voltage regulator? I plan
> to check connections on the battery and such to see if something is loose.
> Ken Carpenter
> N 9XS 914 Mono
>
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