---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 01/19/05: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 09:04 AM - Re: credit card refund of europe kit deposit (Lmorgan822@aol.com) 2. 10:23 AM - Re: Props (Henk Roelofs) 3. 10:34 AM - Re: Props (Mark Burton) 4. 11:18 AM - Re: Props (Trevpond@aol.com) 5. 12:51 PM - Re: Props (Duncan McFadyean) 6. 01:21 PM - Re: Props (Gerry Holland) 7. 01:23 PM - lock nuts (Edward Gladstone) 8. 01:30 PM - Which cable to use (Mike Gamble) 9. 02:26 PM - Re: lock nuts (Chuck Popenoe) 10. 02:42 PM - Re: lock nuts (Cliff Shaw) 11. 04:10 PM - Re: lock nuts (R.C.Harrison) 12. 04:39 PM - Re: lock nuts (Edward Gladstone) 13. 06:31 PM - over-voltage from alternator (kenneth b. carpenter) 14. 08:22 PM - Re: over-voltage from alternator (Cliff Shaw) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 09:04:27 AM PST US From: Lmorgan822@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: credit card refund of europe kit deposit --> Europa-List message posted by: Lmorgan822@aol.com Same thing happened to me. Mine was in a container from Feb to July. Fraud is an understatement. I think there was collusion between EMIL and Redmond Nichols. They were NEVER responsive. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:23:52 AM PST US From: Henk Roelofs Subject: Re: Europa-List: Props --> Europa-List message posted by: Henk Roelofs At 11:47 16-1-05 -0500, "Jim Butcher" wrote: >Also, anyone getting responses from Martin at Airmaster? Airmaster is >starting to be quiet like EMIL did at the end. Hi Jim, Last contact with Airmaster was by email Jan, 17. They require funds to be transferred prior to shipping of the prop. They can't do cash on delivery. We're not sure what to do next. Regards, Henk & Bart Europa #264 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:34:54 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Props From: Mark Burton --> Europa-List message posted by: Mark Burton > Last contact with Airmaster was by email Jan, 17. > They require funds to be transferred prior to shipping of the prop. > They can't do cash on delivery. > We're not sure what to do next. Buy an Arplast or a Woodcomp prop instead and spend the money you saved on beer. Just kidding, Mark ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:18:56 AM PST US From: Trevpond@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Props --> Europa-List message posted by: Trevpond@aol.com Just got my Airmaster on time and perfect. Trev Pond Kit 598 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:51:09 PM PST US From: "Duncan McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Props --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" <<.....spend the money you > saved on beer. >> Or one of those nice constant speed controllers to go with the prop! Duncan McF. do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Burton" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Props > --> Europa-List message posted by: Mark Burton > > > > Last contact with Airmaster was by email Jan, 17. > > They require funds to be transferred prior to shipping of the prop. > > They can't do cash on delivery. > > We're not sure what to do next. > > Buy an Arplast or a Woodcomp prop instead and spend the money you > saved on beer. > > Just kidding, > > Mark > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:21:52 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Props From: Gerry Holland --> Europa-List message posted by: Gerry Holland > <<.....spend the money you saved on beer. > Or one of those nice constant speed controllers to go with the prop! And still have money left for beer! Regards Gerry ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:23:25 PM PST US From: Edward Gladstone Subject: Europa-List: lock nuts --> Europa-List message posted by: Edward Gladstone Message text written by INTERNET:europa-list@matronics.com --> Europa-List message posted by: "Graham Higgins" > >- - - - - - - - -> > You suggest the half nut is applied first, to the correct torque, then the > full nut, also to the correct torque.At this point the half nut is just > about floating, as the pressure on the zig face of the bolt thread is > approaching zero.As the half nut is backed off, some of the turn will be > just taking up the slack in the thread, and this does not change anything. > But as it is backed off further, it is putting pressure on the zag face of > the bolt. This must also reduce pressure on the article being held, and the pressure on the full > nut threads is increased by the same amount. > What is unclear to me is whether this reduction is significant, as the > article being held is under less than the correct pressure. > The danger of having a floating half nut, thus negating any locking effect, > - - - - - - - - -> > Hi Graham, When you apply the correct torque to the nut you are actually stretching the bolt to provide the correct design tension in the bolt ( it is actually amazing just how much stretch occurs in the bolt - - - try taking a 4 or 5M bolt of about 2 & 1/2" long, slide a 2" thick wall tube or a stack of larger nuts or washers over it, finger tighten a nut down on it and measure the length of the bolt with a vernier (or preferably digital) caliper. Then tighten the nut with a spanner and measure the length of the bolt again - - you will be surprised by how much it has stretched !!) Thus, when you back off the half thickness nut to apply pressure against the full nut, although you increase the pressure on the zig face of the full nut, as long as the full nut has not turned, the stretch in the bolt, and therefore the tension in the bolt will not have changed. The article will still be held at the correct pressure. Ted ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:30:15 PM PST US From: "Mike Gamble" Subject: Europa-List: Which cable to use --> Europa-List message posted by: "Mike Gamble" Is PVF cable just as good as Tefzel.? Should we be using it in our aircraft? Its a lot cheaper! Is there one guage of cable that we can use for most purposes as long as it can cope with the current capacity required by the largest consumer? Mike Gamble XS Mono 440 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:26:52 PM PST US From: "Chuck Popenoe" Subject: RE: Europa-List: lock nuts --> Europa-List message posted by: "Chuck Popenoe" I've been following this thread and haven't been convinced by the arguments. So, as an curious experimental scientist, I happen to have in my lab a Skidmore-Wilhelm tensile test device, capable of measuring the tensile load on a bolt quite accurately. I placed a 1/2-13 bolt in the device and with a fitting nut, torqued it to 6000 lbf measured tensile force. I then placed another 1/2" nut on top and torqued it down as a locknut. The tensile force on the bolt did not change--remained at 6000 lbf. Next, I loosened the locknut and tightened it to snug condition, and while holding the locknut fixed, backed off the lower nut to lock the pair. The bolt tensile preload decreased to 5000 lbf. I repeated the set of experiments again, with the same result. Q.E.D.! This little experiment confirmed my suspicions that the locking nut should remain on top. Please tell me if am I doing something wrong? Pops A036 -- on hold at the moment. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Edward Gladstone Subject: Europa-List: lock nuts --> Europa-List message posted by: Edward Gladstone --> Message text written by INTERNET:europa-list@matronics.com --> Europa-List message posted by: "Graham Higgins" --> > >- - - - - - - - -> > You suggest the half nut is applied first, to the correct torque, >then the > full nut, also to the correct torque.At this point the half nut is > just about floating, as the pressure on the zig face of the bolt > thread is approaching zero.As the half nut is backed off, some of the > turn will be just taking up the slack in the thread, and this does not > change anything. > But as it is backed off further, it is putting pressure on the zag > face of > the bolt. This must also reduce pressure on the article being held, > and the pressure on the full > nut threads is increased by the same amount. > What is unclear to me is whether this reduction is significant, as the > article being held is under less than the correct pressure. The danger > of having a floating half nut, thus negating any locking effect, > - - - - - - - - -> > Hi Graham, When you apply the correct torque to the nut you are actually stretching the bolt to provide the correct design tension in the bolt ( it is actually amazing just how much stretch occurs in the bolt - - - try taking a 4 or 5M bolt of about 2 & 1/2" long, slide a 2" thick wall tube or a stack of larger nuts or washers over it, finger tighten a nut down on it and measure the length of the bolt with a vernier (or preferably digital) caliper. Then tighten the nut with a spanner and measure the length of the bolt again - - you will be surprised by how much it has stretched !!) Thus, when you back off the half thickness nut to apply pressure against the full nut, although you increase the pressure on the zig face of the full nut, as long as the full nut has not turned, the stretch in the bolt, and therefore the tension in the bolt will not have changed. The article will still be held at the correct pressure. Ted advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:42:43 PM PST US From: "Cliff Shaw" Subject: Re: Europa-List: lock nuts --> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" > decreased to 5000 lbf. I repeated the set of experiments again, with the > same result. Q.E.D.! This little experiment confirmed my suspicions > that > the locking nut should remain on top. Please tell me if am I doing > something wrong? > > Pops > A036 -- on hold at the moment. Thanks !!! Cliff Shaw 1041 Euclid ave. Edmonds, WA 98020 425 776 5555 http://www.europaowners.org/WileE IMHO There are much better ways to stop a nut from loosing than a jam nut !!! The only place a jam nut is to be used is when there is no load on the first threaded devise. (rod ends) ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:10:46 PM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: lock nuts --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" Hi! Chuck Since you are now testing all the theory that is suggested please test what is claimed to be the correct procedure........ Torque up to full load a lock nut first measuring very accurately the elongation of the bolt. Then apply the main nut and torque it up to the same torque on top of the lock nut. Check the elongation of the bolt (it should be the same). Then holding the main nut steady back off the lock nut to the underside of the main nut, and you should find that the elongation hasn't changed. The point to all this is that when you torque up nuts onto bolts the working tensile strength of the bolt is the objective you are trying to always replicate. It is easier to get repeat tensile strain on a bolt by specifying the torque on the nut than to fanny about measuring the loaded length of all bolts individually. If you under tighten nuts the bolts will obviously not achieve their design objective and remain elastic. Correctly loaded bolts within their design loads will also remain elastic. However should you over tighten then the bolt will eventually get to its yield point where it starts to "waist" and it gets progressively considerably longer without any useful increase in load until it breaks. Bolts that have entered their yield area are plastic and do not return to their original length when loosened hence they are scrap. You will find that the vast proportion of bolts on the Europa are designed to be in shear not tension hence they are not generally torqued up. It's only necessary for such finite tensile requirements on highly stressed items such as engine compartment and fire wall forward. Some applications can subject the bolts to over load in service by the nature of the application. For instance the bolts holding a crane slew ring together are highly stressed and in a very critical operation apart from the elastic considerations the repetitive loading and unloading causes a metallurgical change in their composition called WORK HARDENING, at regulated periods these have to be considered "life expired" scrapped and replaced with new. So one reason for torquing bolts is to control against over tightening as well as undertightening since as you will see above you could finish up with condemned bolts. Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa 337 MKI/Jabiru 3300 -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Popenoe Subject: RE: Europa-List: lock nuts --> Europa-List message posted by: "Chuck Popenoe" I've been following this thread and haven't been convinced by the arguments. So, as an curious experimental scientist, I happen to have in my lab a Skidmore-Wilhelm tensile test device, capable of measuring the tensile load on a bolt quite accurately. I placed a 1/2-13 bolt in the device and with a fitting nut, torqued it to 6000 lbf measured tensile force. I then placed another 1/2" nut on top and torqued it down as a locknut. The tensile force on the bolt did not change--remained at 6000 lbf. Next, I loosened the locknut and tightened it to snug condition, and while holding the locknut fixed, backed off the lower nut to lock the pair. The bolt tensile preload decreased to 5000 lbf. I repeated the set of experiments again, with the same result. Q.E.D.! This little experiment confirmed my suspicions that the locking nut should remain on top. Please tell me if am I doing something wrong? Pops A036 -- on hold at the moment. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:39:59 PM PST US From: Edward Gladstone Subject: RE: Europa-List: lock nuts --> Europa-List message posted by: Edward Gladstone Message text written by INTERNET:europa-list@matronics.com --> Europa-List message posted by: "Chuck Popenoe" >-- - - - - > >Next, I loosened the locknut and tightened it to snug condition, and while holding the locknut >fixed, backed off the lower nut to lock the pair. The bolt tensile preload decreased to 5000 lbf. < > - - - - > . Hi Chuck, This is exactly as I would have expected - - - - the tension in the bolt is produced by the stretching of the bolt by applying torque to the nut. When you loosened the locknut and tightened it to a snug condition (and thus a lesser tension) you then reduced the stretch in the bolt when you backed off the lower nut to lock the pair. I suspect that in you first half of your experiment the nuts were not properly locked - - To provide the correct lock there has to be a wedge effect between the two nuts and to do this by tightening down the second nut you would have to push the first nut further along the bolt to transfer the pressure from the zig to the zag face. To do this you would have to apply a far greater torque than that applied to the first nut. this would mean that the bolt would be stretched further & therefor I would expect the tension in the bolt to have increased. Try the second half of your experiment by applying the correct torque to the second nut and hold it stationary (thus keeping the stretch the same) while you back off the first nut. In backing off the first nut it does not move along the bolt, it only transfers the pressure from the zig to the zag face of the thread to produce the wedge action. By the way - - - the method that I have described as the correct method is not my pet idea - - - as a retired professional engineer it was drummed into me as an apprentice and again when I studied for my Mechanical Engineering Degree many years ago. With the development of the modern "stiff" nuts and other locking aids the basic stuff seems to have been forgotten. Ted ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:31:58 PM PST US From: "kenneth b. carpenter" Subject: Europa-List: over-voltage from alternator --> Europa-List message posted by: "kenneth b. carpenter" I have experienced the alternator over charging the system. When revving up the engine, it goes up to 17 volts. Drop back to idle and the voltage drops back to 13.5V. It has done it rarely for a moment or two when first starting the engine. Then it did not recur in flight. Yesterday it went up to 17V. while in cruise. I reduced the RPM to about 4500 and the voltage went back to normal. I returned to the field with no detectable harm to anything. All the electronics will take 12-24V so they were not harmed. The overvoltage did not last long enough to harm the battery. Anyone else had this problem? Do I need a new voltage regulator? I plan to check connections on the battery and such to see if something is loose. Ken Carpenter N 9XS 914 Mono ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:22:57 PM PST US From: "Cliff Shaw" Subject: Re: Europa-List: over-voltage from alternator --> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" Ken Electronics I can help with ( jam nuts are a different story. I am "up-side down" ) If you have good electrical connections all around, the regulator is the problem. The connection I would be suspicious of are the ones coming off the regulator to the battery. You may be seeing a voltage that is trying to compensate for a high resistance current path to the battery. The only regulator problems I have heard of are sagging off of the charge voltage (lower). Good luck, and let us all know what you do to fix it. Thanks Cliff Shaw 1041 Euclid ave. Edmonds, WA 98020 425 776 5555 http://www.europaowners.org/WileE b. carpenter" > Anyone else had this problem? Do I need a new voltage regulator? I plan > to check connections on the battery and such to see if something is loose. > Ken Carpenter > N 9XS 914 Mono >