Europa-List Digest Archive

Fri 01/21/05


Total Messages Posted: 37



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 01:27 AM - Re: RE : Carb Icing (Richard Holder)
     2. 02:00 AM - Lock nuts (Graham Singleton)
     3. 02:08 AM - Re: Europa-List Digest: 13 Msgs - 01/20/05 (Graham Singleton)
     4. 04:49 AM - Re: RE : Carb Icing (Jim Thursby)
     5. 05:14 AM - Re: lock nuts (R.C.Harrison)
     6. 05:28 AM - Re: Carb Icing (Carl Pattinson)
     7. 06:04 AM - Re: Carb Icing (Dave_Miller@avivacanada.com)
     8. 06:51 AM - RE : Carb Icing (mau11)
     9. 08:04 AM - Just for the record...... (R.C.Harrison)
    10. 09:20 AM - Re: RE : Carb Icing (Terry Seaver)
    11. 09:58 AM - Re: Carb Icing (Richard Holder)
    12. 10:29 AM - Manifold pressure gauge (Richard Holder)
    13. 10:46 AM - Re: Carb Icing (Carl Pattinson)
    14. 10:58 AM - Re: Sky-Drive instalation (JEFF ROBERTS)
    15. 11:01 AM - Re: RE : Carb Icing (JEFF ROBERTS)
    16. 11:57 AM - Re: Carb Icing (William Mills)
    17. 12:22 PM - Re: RE : Carb Icing (Richard Holder)
    18. 12:22 PM - Re: RE : Carb Icing (Richard Holder)
    19. 12:53 PM - Re: Carb Icing (Carl Pattinson)
    20. 01:26 PM - Re: Manifold pressure gauge (Duncan McFadyean)
    21. 01:36 PM - Re: Carb Icing (Richard Holder)
    22. 01:50 PM - Re: RE : Carb Icing (Terry Seaver)
    23. 01:59 PM - Re: Carb Icing (Duncan McFadyean)
    24. 02:05 PM - Re: RE : Carb Icing (Duncan McFadyean)
    25. 02:54 PM - Re: Manifold pressure gauge (R.C.Harrison)
    26. 03:10 PM - Re: RE : Carb Icing (Terry Seaver)
    27. 03:12 PM - Re: Carb Icing (Carl Pattinson)
    28. 03:16 PM - Re: Manifold pressure gauge (Terry Seaver)
    29. 03:27 PM - Re: Carb Icing (KARL HEINDL)
    30. 04:12 PM - Re: Manifold pressure gauge (R.C.Harrison)
    31. 04:37 PM - Re: Europa-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 01/18/05 (Graham Singleton)
    32. 04:47 PM - credit card refund of europe kit deposit (Graham Singleton)
    33. 05:39 PM - Re: credit card refund of europe kit deposit (Lmorgan822@aol.com)
    34. 07:32 PM - Re: Lock nuts (Chuck Popenoe)
    35. 10:02 PM - Electrical Layout Page (JEFF ROBERTS)
    36. 11:09 PM - Re: Manifold pressure gauge (Richard Holder)
    37. 11:49 PM - Carb ice - draining coolant (RoddyEuropa@aol.com)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 01:27:11 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Carb Icing
    From: Richard Holder <rholder@avnet.co.uk>
    --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder <rholder@avnet.co.uk> > No doubt: every system works! > Why?Because I think 912 does not know carb icing. 600h flying in the alps in > summer and winter I never had icing troubles at low descent rate (1000ft/min > max and 4000rpm mini.) > I am afraid there is often confusion beteewn carb icing and misfiring or fuel > alimentation . > May be that's not true for 912S > Jean Philipppe I think it depends on more than that. The original twin conical airfilters lived under the cowling and picked up hot air from inside the cowling, the later one piece air filter takes its air from outside the cowling. With the Classic firewall forward the cowling has the radiators at the front and so the internal temperature is much greater than in the XS FWF installation. I agree that any misfiring might be a fuel quality problem, I assume you haven't had any misfiring of any sort ? I definitely was getting some minor hiccups after 40 minutes and on backing off the throttle. I have now fitted the SkyDrive kit and will report back as to whether the misfire is cured. (Proving a negative may take some while !) I have no idea whether the 912S is any more likely to be prone to carb icing than the 912 but the factors I mention above will certainly have and effect. Richard Richard F.W. Holder 01279 842804 (POTS) Bell House, Bell Lane, 01279 842942 (fax) Widford, Ware, Herts, 07860 367423 (mobile) SG12 8SH email : richard.holder@avnet.co.uk Europa Classic Tri-gear : G-OWWW, High Cross PA-28-181 : Piper Archer : G-JANA, EGSG (Stapleford)


    Message 2


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    Time: 02:00:11 AM PST US
    From: Graham Singleton <graham@gflight.f9.co.uk>
    Subject: Lock nuts
    --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton <graham@gflight.f9.co.uk> At 23:56 20/01/2005 -0800, you wrote: >OK! My little experiment was valid, but I agree that it was the wrong >experiment! I have turned around to becoming completely convinced, after >doing some more thought experiments. Ted has accurately portrayed the >situation, and I hope that we don't have to beat on this any more! > >Pops Pops! you made me think a little harder, so it wasn't wasted effort. When you back off the lock nut the tension won't change, the nut just behaves as a washer until the thread starts to bite in the opposite direction, Ted put it slightly differently but said the same thing I think? Graham -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.


    Message 3


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    Time: 02:08:59 AM PST US
    From: Graham Singleton <graham@gflight.f9.co.uk>
    Subject: Re: Europa-List Digest: 13 Msgs - 01/20/05
    --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton <graham@gflight.f9.co.uk> At 23:56 20/01/2005 -0800, you wrote: >Carb Icing > >--> Europa-List message posted by: NEEL Jean Philippe ><jeanphilippeneel@yahoo.fr> > >No doubt: every system works! >Why?Because I think 912 does not know carb icing. 600h flying in the alps >in summer >and winter I never had icing troubles at low descent rate (1000ft/min max >and 4000rpm mini.) >I am afraid there is often confusion beteewn carb icing and misfiring or >fuel alimentation Jean-Philippe Carb icing has been found (and photographed) on 912. You may be lucky (or wise) because of the characteristics of your installation but it certainly can and does occur. Graham -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.


    Message 4


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    Time: 04:49:39 AM PST US
    From: "Jim Thursby" <jthursby@tampabay.rr.com>
    Subject: Carb Icing
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jim Thursby" <jthursby@tampabay.rr.com> The 912S CAN suffer carb icing, and just becuase you have never experienced it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The classic cowling is less suceptable to the problem I believe. I experienced it over Florida in the XS 912S trigear company plane and its a little strange with a Rotax. Jim Thursby -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of NEEL Jean Philippe Subject: Re: RE : Europa-List: Carb Icing --> Europa-List message posted by: NEEL Jean Philippe <jeanphilippeneel@yahoo.fr> No doubt: every system works! Why?Because I think 912 does not know carb icing. 600h flying in the alps in summer and winter I never had icing troubles at low descent rate (1000ft/min max and 4000rpm mini.) I am afraid there is often confusion beteewn carb icing and misfiring or fuel alimentation . May be that's not true for 912S Jean Philipppe mau11 <mau11@free.fr> wrote: --> Europa-List message posted by: "mau11" Hello, I know this system, the big problem is the permanent upload charge of electrical network during service 60w. Personnaly I use Skydrive since 250 hours (I am very happy)and the two main advantage are: 1 no electrical consumption 2 Permanent service (I had a valve into the cowling for shut down but I never used) Monowheel N145 --|-- --------(*)-------- Michel AUVRAY -----Message d'origine----- De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Carl Pattinson Envoy : vendredi 21 janvier 2005 00:26 : europa-list@matronics.com Objet : Europa-List: Carb Icing --> Europa-List message posted by: "Carl Pattinson" --> I recently commented on the Skydrive vs the ST Aviation carb heater option. Here is the link for the ST version. There is a photo showing how it is fitted. http://www.jabiru.co.uk/IceEliminator.htm ---------------------------------


    Message 5


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    Time: 05:14:32 AM PST US
    From: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
    Subject: lock nuts
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk> Hi! Kingsley. Well said, Mate ! But I don't think "beat on this subject" is an offensive phrase. Just a statement about how much it dragged on which was necessary to encourage the learning process about very deep and well thought about problem by our engineering ancestors. I for one had chosen to forget about it but when ever travelling by rail will take a lot more interest. Thank the Lord for welded rails! Thanks Ted for the reminder that our rail network may well be maintained by novices.(Sorry, the word WELL isn't a word that should be used anywhere in Rail Engineering !) Except I doubt they understand what a torque spanner is anyway.... just use a 6ft bar on "fishplate" assemblies!!!!!! Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG Do not archive. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kingsley Hurst Subject: RE: Europa-List: lock nuts --> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" <hurstkr@growzone.com.au> > Ted has accurately portrayed the situation, and I hope that we don't have to beat on this any more! Pops, With respect mate, I don't think there was any beating going on with respect to this subject. Ted simply pointed out the correct way to use lock nuts, others disagreed and still others like myself were mystified because we didn't know. Never being afraid to admit I don't understand something, I asked Ted for an explanation and now I'm pleased to be able to say I fully understand the principles involved notwithstanding it took a little while to grasp it. I am of the belief this list and others are for the education of all and I for one am grateful to Ted for what I have learned and I would not like to see others put-off publishing or disputing list postings in future for fear of being wrong or simply not able to understand. Regards Kingsley Do not archive


    Message 6


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    Time: 05:28:28 AM PST US
    From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
    Subject: Re: Carb Icing
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "Carl Pattinson" <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk> I believe you are wrong when you say there is a permanent 60w load on the power bus. The ST system has 2x 15 watt heaters on each deicer module. They can be switched independently and used together or separately. The total load on all 4 heaters (2 per carb) is 60 watts but in flight it would be sufficient to only utilise half the load to keep the carbs warm. The additional 30 watts could be switched in on takeoff and landing (or when needed). Unless you are running an incredibly complex panel you shouldnt be needing the output which the alternator is capable of delivering. The only reason I am considering these is because I am retrofitting my heating system and I dont wish to have to drain down the radiators etc. If I had the choice (ie: prior to completing our Europa) I would have definitely opted for the skydrive system as I think it is an inherently better design ( it can be left on permanently and consumes negligible power/ energy). My main issues are with the installation process. My only concern over the ST system is that the heatsource is somewhat localised (heater is bolted to the LHS of the carb whereas the Skydrive system distributes the heat evenly where it is required. From what I have been told the Skydrive is difficult to fit and really requires a hydraulic press to force the heater unit inside the carb body. I wonder how many have been split/ damaged in the process. Does anybody know if Skydrive offer a fitting service. I would be concerned that I might be picking up the cost for a new carb unit if anything went wrong. ----- Original Message ----- From: "mau11" <mau11@free.fr> Subject: RE : Europa-List: Carb Icing > --> Europa-List message posted by: "mau11" <mau11@free.fr> > > Hello, > I know this system, the big problem is the permanent upload charge of > electrical network during service 60w. > > Personnaly I use Skydrive since 250 hours (I am very happy)and the two > main advantage are: > 1 no electrical consumption > 2 Permanent service (I had a valve into the cowling for shut down but I > never used) > > Monowheel N145 > > --|-- > --------(*)-------- > > Michel AUVRAY > > > -----Message d'origine----- > De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Carl > Pattinson > Envoy : vendredi 21 janvier 2005 00:26 > : europa-list@matronics.com > Objet : Europa-List: Carb Icing > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Carl Pattinson" > --> <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk> > > I recently commented on the Skydrive vs the ST Aviation carb heater > option. > > Here is the link for the ST version. There is a photo showing how it is > fitted. > > http://www.jabiru.co.uk/IceEliminator.htm > > >


    Message 7


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    Time: 06:04:39 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Carb Icing
    From: Dave_Miller@avivacanada.com
    01/21/2005 09:03:20 AM, Serialize complete at 01/21/2005 09:03:20 AM --> Europa-List message posted by: Dave_Miller@avivacanada.com With no mechanical aptitude and with much trepidation I fitted a Skydrive. The hardest part was finding a wide enough vise to press the fitting on. After taking care to ensure that it was fitted squarely, the assembly went well, however I could see that it is the kind of job that could easily spoil your day. Dave A061 - 912S trigear, almost there.


    Message 8


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    Time: 06:51:16 AM PST US
    From: "mau11" <mau11@free.fr>
    Subject: Carb Icing
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "mau11" <mau11@free.fr> After buying the skydrive system, I take 2 hours to install on my 912 without any problem on the carburettor. My main problem is to modify the fuel cup below the carburettor. I have made a new cup design and modify the original cup by welding an addition lenght of 19 mm. See the drawings joint. --|-- --------(*)-------- Michel AUVRAY -----Message d'origine----- De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Carl Pattinson Envoy=E9 : vendredi 21 janvier 2005 14:10 =C0 : europa-list@matronics.com Objet : Re: Europa-List: Carb Icing --> Europa-List message posted by: "Carl Pattinson" --> <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk> I believe you are wrong when you say there is a permanent 60w load on the power bus. The ST system has 2x 15 watt heaters on each deicer module. They can be switched independently and used together or separately. The total load on all 4 heaters (2 per carb) is 60 watts but in flight it would be sufficient to only utilise half the load to keep the carbs warm. The additional 30 watts could be switched in on takeoff and landing (or when needed). Unless you are running an incredibly complex panel you shouldnt be needing the output which the alternator is capable of delivering. The only reason I am considering these is because I am retrofitting my heating system and I dont wish to have to drain down the radiators etc. If I had the choice (ie: prior to completing our Europa) I would have definitely opted for the skydrive system as I think it is an inherently better design ( it can be left on permanently and consumes negligible power/ energy). My main issues are with the installation process. My only concern over the ST system is that the heatsource is somewhat localised (heater is bolted to the LHS of the carb whereas the Skydrive system distributes the heat evenly where it is required. From what I have been told the Skydrive is difficult to fit and really requires a hydraulic press to force the heater unit inside the carb body. I wonder how many have been split/ damaged in the process. Does anybody know if Skydrive offer a fitting service. I would be concerned that I might be picking up the cost for a new carb unit if anything went wrong. ----- Original Message ----- From: "mau11" <mau11@free.fr> Subject: RE : Europa-List: Carb Icing > --> Europa-List message posted by: "mau11" <mau11@free.fr> > > Hello, > I know this system, the big problem is the permanent upload charge of > electrical network during service 60w. > > Personnaly I use Skydrive since 250 hours (I am very happy)and the two > main advantage are: 1 no electrical consumption > 2 Permanent service (I had a valve into the cowling for shut down but I > never used) > > Monowheel N145 > > --|-- > --------(*)-------- > > Michel AUVRAY > > > -----Message d'origine----- > De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Carl > Pattinson Envoy : vendredi 21 janvier 2005 00:26 > : europa-list@matronics.com > Objet : Europa-List: Carb Icing > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Carl Pattinson" > --> <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk> > > I recently commented on the Skydrive vs the ST Aviation carb heater > option. > > Here is the link for the ST version. There is a photo showing how it > is fitted. > > http://www.jabiru.co.uk/IceEliminator.htm > >


    Message 9


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    Time: 08:04:55 AM PST US
    From: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
    Subject: Just for the record......
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk> Hi! Peter. Re:- "Scandinavian Sortie" Europa Flyer. Not wishing to be pedantic but G-PTAG must have credit where it's due ! G-PTAG Europa KIT 337/MKI/Jabiru 3300 with myself and Ivor Phillips was the FIRST EUROPA TO FLY IN FINLAND 3 YEARS AGO, but also kind courtesy of Raimo Toivio and his beautiful family and state of the art accommodation and sauna . Now if you were to say the first Mono Rigged Europa or Rotax powered Europa I'd retire gracefully on the matter ! Who has lined up this years trips yet? Where and when. I'm looking to possibly do Barkaby and Stauning which are consecutive weekends with possibly Estonia, Latvia and/or Poland in the interceding week or en-route out ward or return. I also probably need a prop. overall at MT Propellers in Bavaria late summer and a trip to Portugal as a forerunner to a WINTER HOLIDAY in the very south which I'd like to take the 'plane on. Not to forget the Swiss Rally too! And I believe also that it's a Friedrichshafen Year too.? Best regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG do not archive


    Message 10


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    Time: 09:20:41 AM PST US
    From: Terry Seaver <terrys@cisco.com>
    Subject: Re: Carb Icing
    --> Europa-List message posted by: Terry Seaver <terrys@cisco.com> The 912S with XS cold air plenum can DEFINITELY get carb ice, don't doubt it for a moment, both on the ground and in the air. The Skydrive carb heat clears the ice quickly once turned on. We only turn it off when we expect to do a hot start after a flight, letting the carbs cool on the taxi to the ramp after landing. Terry Seaver A135 / N135TD NEEL Jean Philippe wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: NEEL Jean Philippe <jeanphilippeneel@yahoo.fr> > > No doubt: every system works! > Why?Because I think 912 does not know carb icing. 600h flying in the alps in summer and winter I never had icing troubles at low descent rate (1000ft/min max and 4000rpm mini.) > I am afraid there is often confusion beteewn carb icing and misfiring or fuel alimentation . > May be that's not true for 912S > Jean Philipppe > > > mau11 <mau11@free.fr> wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: "mau11" > > Hello, > I know this system, the big problem is the permanent upload charge of > electrical network during service 60w. > > Personnaly I use Skydrive since 250 hours (I am very happy)and the two > main advantage are: > 1 no electrical consumption > 2 Permanent service (I had a valve into the cowling for shut down but I > never used) > > Monowheel N145 > > --|-- > --------(*)-------- > > Michel AUVRAY > > > -----Message d'origine----- > De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Carl > Pattinson > Envoy : vendredi 21 janvier 2005 00:26 > : europa-list@matronics.com > Objet : Europa-List: Carb Icing > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Carl Pattinson" > --> > > I recently commented on the Skydrive vs the ST Aviation carb heater > option. > > Here is the link for the ST version. There is a photo showing how it is > fitted. > > http://www.jabiru.co.uk/IceEliminator.htm > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > >


    Message 11


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    Time: 09:58:32 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Carb Icing
    From: Richard Holder <rholder@avnet.co.uk>
    --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder <rholder@avnet.co.uk> > From what I have been told the Skydrive is difficult to fit and really > requires a hydraulic press to force the heater unit inside the carb body. I > wonder how many have been split/ damaged in the process. > > Does anybody know if Skydrive offer a fitting service. I would be concerned > that I might be picking up the cost for a new carb unit if anything went > wrong. I came to the same conclusion as the carbs were definitely not round enough to even hold the heater on a thou or two while being put into the vice. In the end, rather than risk a 400 or more carb (or two !) I sent them back to SkyDrive and they fitted them for 15. OK the postage added another 30 but I considered it money well spent ! In fact my recommendation is that you take your carbs off and send them to SkyDrive and order the heaters and their fitting at the same time. That way you don't pay for an extra leg of the journey for the heaters. I am sure it only took them 15 minutes and I am sure you could go there and have it done. If I had realised how expensive the postage was (18 from me to them) I would have driven up there ! Like many things someone who has done 50 such pressings will be more aware of the limitations and the level of force required. I didn't, so it was worth the extra 50. Draining the water system is trivial. Take off Air filter (you would have to do that anyway to get the carbs off). Take off water filler cap. Put bowl underneath bungey. Be ready to move bowl. Use Stanley knife to cut the pipe at the back of the engine just below the flywheel cover (and THAT is an over description of a flimsy bit of plastic that does not keep water out of the flywheel housing !). Make a decisive cut. Water p*sses out, into bowl which you move to catch as much as possible to avoid having to clean it up off the floor. (You won't be re-using it !) After inserting the t-pieces and replacement of the heater connected carbs, fill up the water and bleed the pipe between the heaters as specified in the instructions. And Bob is your mother's brother ! :-) Richard Richard F.W. Holder 01279 842804 (POTS) Bell House, Bell Lane, 01279 842942 (fax) Widford, Ware, Herts, 07860 367423 (mobile) SG12 8SH email : richard.holder@avnet.co.uk Europa Classic Tri-gear : G-OWWW, High Cross PA-28-181 : Piper Archer : G-JANA, EGSG (Stapleford)


    Message 12


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    Time: 10:29:20 AM PST US
    Subject: Manifold pressure gauge
    From: Richard Holder <rholder@avnet.co.uk>
    --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder <rholder@avnet.co.uk> Hi, just received the Dec 2004 issue of the Europa Flyer. I am very interested to see that Brian Allsop managed to get his Kremen CS/VP prop approved without a manifold pressure gauge. When I put my Airmaster on my aircraft at the initial build I saw that Airmaster and Rotax did not require a MAP and so built my panel accordingly. When it came to the Permit to Test Fly Donaldson INSISTED on the fitting of a MAP. I argued that there was no requirement from the manufacturer of either bit of kit. He insisted. Sending me a copy of some JAR "minimum equipment" list which showed that a MAP was required for a CS prop. Probably written in 1948 ! Anyway he is the king of this stuff and I had no option but to fit it (spitting !) on a sub-panel that destroyed the looks of my panel. Actually it is very useful for setting power. So how come Brian didn't need one ? It is only required for CS props - not VP props. I am interested about the description of VP and CS in the article. The Airmaster gives a VP option just as an aside. I have not used it yet. The Airmaster controller has switched positions for Take-Off (5700 rpm) Climb (5400) and Cruise (5000) plus a position where you can set any rpm you want. The Kremen seems to be a mixture of CS and VP almost as separate functions, when really the CS could be used all the time if all the required features are there. Unless someone disagrees ! :-) Richard Richard F.W. Holder 01279 842804 (POTS) Bell House, Bell Lane, 01279 842942 (fax) Widford, Ware, Herts, 07860 367423 (mobile) SG12 8SH email : richard.holder@avnet.co.uk Europa Classic Tri-gear : G-OWWW, High Cross PA-28-181 : Piper Archer : G-JANA, EGSG (Stapleford)


    Message 13


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    Time: 10:46:34 AM PST US
    From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
    Subject: Re: Carb Icing
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "Carl Pattinson" <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk> I totally agree with the bit about paying Skydrive to fit the carb heater modules. Draining the water system is trivial. Take off Air filter (you would have to do that anyway to get the carbs off). Take off water filler cap. Put bowl underneath bungey. Be ready to move bowl. OK so far Use Stanley knife to cut the pipe at the back of the engine just below the flywheel cover (and THAT is an over description of a flimsy bit of plastic that does not keep water out of the flywheel housing !). Make a decisive cut. Water p*sses out, into bowl which you move to catch as much as possible to avoid having to clean it up off the floor. (You won't be re-using it !) Unless I have read this wrong heres another reason I dont want to attempt this. On the original Classic engine assembly, there is virtually no space between the firewall and the back of the engine (my engine dosent have the plastic cover that you mention). It would be damn near impossible to make the cuts that you describe without removing the engine and unless the engine breaks I dont intend to take it off. If I have got this wrong, let me know. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Holder" <rholder@avnet.co.uk> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Carb Icing > --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder <rholder@avnet.co.uk> > >> From what I have been told the Skydrive is difficult to fit and really >> requires a hydraulic press to force the heater unit inside the carb body. I >> wonder how many have been split/ damaged in the process. >> >> Does anybody know if Skydrive offer a fitting service. I would be concerned >> that I might be picking up the cost for a new carb unit if anything went >> wrong. > > I came to the same conclusion as the carbs were definitely not round enough > to even hold the heater on a thou or two while being put into the vice. In > the end, rather than risk a 400 or more carb (or two !) I sent them back to > SkyDrive and they fitted them for 15. OK the postage added another 30 but > I considered it money well spent ! > > In fact my recommendation is that you take your carbs off and send them to > SkyDrive and order the heaters and their fitting at the same time. That way > you don't pay for an extra leg of the journey for the heaters. I am sure it > only took them 15 minutes and I am sure you could go there and have it done. > If I had realised how expensive the postage was (18 from me to them) I > would have driven up there ! > > Like many things someone who has done 50 such pressings will be more aware > of the limitations and the level of force required. I didn't, so it was > worth the extra 50. > > Draining the water system is trivial. Take off Air filter (you would have to > do that anyway to get the carbs off). Take off water filler cap. Put bowl > underneath bungey. Be ready to move bowl. Use Stanley knife to cut the pipe > at the back of the engine just below the flywheel cover (and THAT is an over > description of a flimsy bit of plastic that does not keep water out of the > flywheel housing !). Make a decisive cut. Water p*sses out, into bowl which > you move to catch as much as possible to avoid having to clean it up off the > floor. (You won't be re-using it !) > > After inserting the t-pieces and replacement of the heater connected carbs, > fill up the water and bleed the pipe between the heaters as specified in the > instructions. And Bob is your mother's brother ! > > :-) > > Richard > Richard F.W. Holder 01279 842804 (POTS) > Bell House, Bell Lane, 01279 842942 (fax) > Widford, Ware, Herts, 07860 367423 (mobile) > SG12 8SH email : richard.holder@avnet.co.uk > Europa Classic Tri-gear : G-OWWW, High Cross > PA-28-181 : Piper Archer : G-JANA, EGSG (Stapleford) > >


    Message 14


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    Time: 10:58:51 AM PST US
    From: JEFF ROBERTS <jeff@rmmm.net>
    Subject: Re: Sky-Drive instalation
    --> Europa-List message posted by: JEFF ROBERTS <jeff@rmmm.net> As per the instructions, I taped the heater housing on the carbs with heavy mason hammer insulated with a piece of pine wood. Went very slow to be sure they we're level and on straight. When I couldn't find a vice that was wide enough to push them together I just continued to use the hammer a little at a time and they went together perfect. I'm sure Sky Drive doesn't recommend this but it worked well. We are approaching starting this thing up so well let you know if it didn't. Jeff A258 On Jan 21, 2005, at 11:45 AM, Richard Holder wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder <rholder@avnet.co.uk> > >> From what I have been told the Sky-drive is difficult to fit and >> really >> requires a hydraulic press to force the heater unit inside the carb >> body. I >> wonder how many have been split/ damaged in the process. >> >> Does anybody know if Skydrive offer a fitting service. I would be >> concerned >> that I might be picking up the cost for a new carb unit if anything >> went >> wrong. > > I came to the same conclusion as the carbs were definitely not round > enough > to even hold the heater on a thou or two while being put into the > vice. In > the end, rather than risk a 400 or more carb (or two !) I sent them > back to > SkyDrive and they fitted them for 15. OK the postage added another 30 > but > I considered it money well spent ! > > > ==================== > >


    Message 15


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    Time: 11:01:37 AM PST US
    From: JEFF ROBERTS <jeff@rmmm.net>
    Subject: Re: Carb Icing
    --> Europa-List message posted by: JEFF ROBERTS <jeff@rmmm.net> Like so many others I didn't fit a tap. Thought leaving it on couldn't hurt anything. Does it need to be off for a hot start? Jeff A258 On Jan 21, 2005, at 11:19 AM, Terry Seaver wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: Terry Seaver <terrys@cisco.com> > > The 912S with XS cold air plenum can DEFINITELY get carb ice, don't > doubt it for a moment, both on the ground and in the air. The Skydrive > carb heat clears the ice quickly once turned on. We only turn it off > when we expect to do a hot start after a flight, letting the carbs cool > on the taxi to the ramp after landing. > > Terry Seaver > A135 / N135TD > > NEEL Jean Philippe wrote: >> --> Europa-List message posted by: NEEL Jean Philippe >> <jeanphilippeneel@yahoo.fr> >> >> No doubt: every system works! >> Why?Because I think 912 does not know carb icing. 600h flying in the >> alps in summer and winter I never had icing troubles at low descent >> rate (1000ft/min max and 4000rpm mini.) >> I am afraid there is often confusion beteewn carb icing and misfiring >> or fuel alimentation . >> May be that's not true for 912S >> Jean Philipppe >> >> >> mau11 <mau11@free.fr> wrote: >> --> Europa-List message posted by: "mau11" >> >> Hello, >> I know this system, the big problem is the permanent upload charge of >> electrical network during service 60w. >> >> Personnaly I use Skydrive since 250 hours (I am very happy)and the two >> main advantage are: >> 1 no electrical consumption >> 2 Permanent service (I had a valve into the cowling for shut down but >> I >> never used) >> >> Monowheel N145 >> >> --|-- >> --------(*)-------- >> >> Michel AUVRAY >> >> >> -----Message d'origine----- >> De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Carl >> Pattinson >> Envoy : vendredi 21 janvier 2005 00:26 >> : europa-list@matronics.com >> Objet : Europa-List: Carb Icing >> >> >> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Carl Pattinson" >> --> >> >> I recently commented on the Skydrive vs the ST Aviation carb heater >> option. >> >> Here is the link for the ST version. There is a photo showing how it >> is >> fitted. >> >> http://www.jabiru.co.uk/IceEliminator.htm >> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> >> >> >> >> > >


    Message 16


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    Time: 11:57:20 AM PST US
    From: "William Mills" <combined.merchants@virgin.net>
    Subject: Re: Carb Icing
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "William Mills" <combined.merchants@virgin.net> Hi Carl, Mine's a 912 Classic, but I didn't remove the engine. I removed the pipe, cut it, inserted the tee and pipe and then put it back. Fiddley, but doable. My heaters have done about 600 hrs without any problems and give much confidence. Good luck, William ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Carb Icing > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Carl Pattinson" <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk> > > I totally agree with the bit about paying Skydrive to fit the carb heater modules. > > Draining the water system is trivial. Take off Air filter (you would have to > do that anyway to get the carbs off). Take off water filler cap. Put bowl > underneath bungey. Be ready to move bowl. > > OK so far > > Use Stanley knife to cut the pipe > at the back of the engine just below the flywheel cover (and THAT is an over > description of a flimsy bit of plastic that does not keep water out of the > flywheel housing !). Make a decisive cut. Water p*sses out, into bowl which > you move to catch as much as possible to avoid having to clean it up off the > floor. (You won't be re-using it !) > > Unless I have read this wrong heres another reason I dont want to attempt this. On the original Classic engine assembly, there is virtually no space between the firewall and the back of the engine (my engine dosent have the plastic cover that you mention). It would be damn near impossible to make the cuts that you describe without removing the engine and unless the engine breaks I dont intend to take it off. > > If I have got this wrong, let me know. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Richard Holder" <rholder@avnet.co.uk> > To: <europa-list@matronics.com> > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Carb Icing > > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder <rholder@avnet.co.uk> > > > >> From what I have been told the Skydrive is difficult to fit and really > >> requires a hydraulic press to force the heater unit inside the carb body. I > >> wonder how many have been split/ damaged in the process. > >> > >> Does anybody know if Skydrive offer a fitting service. I would be concerned > >> that I might be picking up the cost for a new carb unit if anything went > >> wrong. > > > > I came to the same conclusion as the carbs were definitely not round enough > > to even hold the heater on a thou or two while being put into the vice. In > > the end, rather than risk a 400 or more carb (or two !) I sent them back to > > SkyDrive and they fitted them for 15. OK the postage added another 30 but > > I considered it money well spent ! > > > > In fact my recommendation is that you take your carbs off and send them to > > SkyDrive and order the heaters and their fitting at the same time. That way > > you don't pay for an extra leg of the journey for the heaters. I am sure it > > only took them 15 minutes and I am sure you could go there and have it done. > > If I had realised how expensive the postage was (18 from me to them) I > > would have driven up there ! > > > > Like many things someone who has done 50 such pressings will be more aware > > of the limitations and the level of force required. I didn't, so it was > > worth the extra 50. > > > > Draining the water system is trivial. Take off Air filter (you would have to > > do that anyway to get the carbs off). Take off water filler cap. Put bowl > > underneath bungey. Be ready to move bowl. Use Stanley knife to cut the pipe > > at the back of the engine just below the flywheel cover (and THAT is an over > > description of a flimsy bit of plastic that does not keep water out of the > > flywheel housing !). Make a decisive cut. Water p*sses out, into bowl which > > you move to catch as much as possible to avoid having to clean it up off the > > floor. (You won't be re-using it !) > > > > After inserting the t-pieces and replacement of the heater connected carbs, > > fill up the water and bleed the pipe between the heaters as specified in the > > instructions. And Bob is your mother's brother ! > > > > :-) > > > > Richard > > Richard F.W. Holder 01279 842804 (POTS) > > Bell House, Bell Lane, 01279 842942 (fax) > > Widford, Ware, Herts, 07860 367423 (mobile) > > SG12 8SH email : richard.holder@avnet.co.uk > > Europa Classic Tri-gear : G-OWWW, High Cross > > PA-28-181 : Piper Archer : G-JANA, EGSG (Stapleford) > > > > > >


    Message 17


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    Time: 12:22:13 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Carb Icing
    From: Richard Holder <rholder@avnet.co.uk>
    --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder <rholder@avnet.co.uk> > Like so many others I didn't fit a tap. Thought leaving it on couldn't > hurt anything. Does it need to be off for a hot start? > Jeff > A258 In very hot weather the carb will be left hot at the end of a flight. If you are planning to start again in (say) the next 30 minutes - when the engine is still hot - then you need to turn off the tap after landing on the first flight to give the carb heaters a chance to cool down before shut down. Open the tap again before take-off. The SkyDrive instructions say that the tap is not needed in our UK temperate climate, but in very hot environments then turning it off keeps the carbs cooler (if necessary !) (eg the desert in the US) Richard Richard F.W. Holder 01279 842804 (POTS) Bell House, Bell Lane, 01279 842942 (fax) Widford, Ware, Herts, 07860 367423 (mobile) SG12 8SH email : richard.holder@avnet.co.uk Europa Classic Tri-gear : G-OWWW, High Cross PA-28-181 : Piper Archer : G-JANA, EGSG (Stapleford) ums.


    Message 18


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    Time: 12:22:13 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Carb Icing
    From: Richard Holder <rholder@avnet.co.uk>
    --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder <rholder@avnet.co.uk> > Like so many others I didn't fit a tap. Thought leaving it on couldn't > hurt anything. Does it need to be off for a hot start? > Jeff > A258 In very hot weather the carb will be left hot at the end of a flight. If you are planning to start again in (say) the next 30 minutes - when the engine is still hot - then you need to turn off the tap after landing on the first flight to give the carb heaters a chance to cool down before shut down. Open the tap again before take-off. The SkyDrive instructions say that the tap is not needed in our UK temperate climate, but in very hot environments then turning it off keeps the carbs cooler (if necessary !) (eg the desert in the US) Richard Richard F.W. Holder 01279 842804 (POTS) Bell House, Bell Lane, 01279 842942 (fax) Widford, Ware, Herts, 07860 367423 (mobile) SG12 8SH email : richard.holder@avnet.co.uk Europa Classic Tri-gear : G-OWWW, High Cross PA-28-181 : Piper Archer : G-JANA, EGSG (Stapleford) ums.


    Message 19


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    Time: 12:53:53 PM PST US
    From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
    Subject: Re: Carb Icing
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "Carl Pattinson" <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk> Thanks for your input William, sounds encouraging. Just looking at my engine manuals, I dont understand why the return pipe has to be attached so close to the water pump inlet. It would seem that anywhere in the return line would have the same result. Cutting the pipe where it runs along the top of the engine would be much easier and would be far less messy. Anyone know of a good reason why this wont work. Presumably the other end of the circuit is connected somewhere between the expansion tank and the radiator inlet connection. Or is it between the top return manifold and the expansion tank (probably higher water pressure at this point). Does anyone have a copy of the installation instructions that I could have. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Mills" <combined.merchants@virgin.net> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Carb Icing > --> Europa-List message posted by: "William Mills" > <combined.merchants@virgin.net> > > Hi Carl, > Mine's a 912 Classic, but I didn't remove the engine. I removed the pipe, > cut it, inserted the tee and pipe and then put it back. Fiddley, but > doable. My heaters have done about 600 hrs without any problems and give > much confidence. > Good luck, > William > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk> > To: <europa-list@matronics.com> > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Carb Icing > > >> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Carl Pattinson" > <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk> >> >> I totally agree with the bit about paying Skydrive to fit the carb heater > modules. >> >> Draining the water system is trivial. Take off Air filter (you would have > to >> do that anyway to get the carbs off). Take off water filler cap. Put bowl >> underneath bungey. Be ready to move bowl. >> >> OK so far >> >> Use Stanley knife to cut the pipe >> at the back of the engine just below the flywheel cover (and THAT is an > over >> description of a flimsy bit of plastic that does not keep water out of >> the >> flywheel housing !). Make a decisive cut. Water p*sses out, into bowl > which >> you move to catch as much as possible to avoid having to clean it up off > the >> floor. (You won't be re-using it !) >> >> Unless I have read this wrong heres another reason I dont want to attempt > this. On the original Classic engine assembly, there is virtually no space > between the firewall and the back of the engine (my engine dosent have the > plastic cover that you mention). It would be damn near impossible to make > the cuts that you describe without removing the engine and unless the > engine > breaks I dont intend to take it off. >> >> If I have got this wrong, let me know. >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Richard Holder" <rholder@avnet.co.uk> >> To: <europa-list@matronics.com> >> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Carb Icing >> >> >> > --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder <rholder@avnet.co.uk> >> > >> >> From what I have been told the Skydrive is difficult to fit and really >> >> requires a hydraulic press to force the heater unit inside the carb > body. I >> >> wonder how many have been split/ damaged in the process. >> >> >> >> Does anybody know if Skydrive offer a fitting service. I would be > concerned >> >> that I might be picking up the cost for a new carb unit if anything > went >> >> wrong. >> > >> > I came to the same conclusion as the carbs were definitely not round > enough >> > to even hold the heater on a thou or two while being put into the vice. > In >> > the end, rather than risk a 400 or more carb (or two !) I sent them >> > back > to >> > SkyDrive and they fitted them for 15. OK the postage added another 30 > but >> > I considered it money well spent ! >> > >> > In fact my recommendation is that you take your carbs off and send them > to >> > SkyDrive and order the heaters and their fitting at the same time. That > way >> > you don't pay for an extra leg of the journey for the heaters. I am >> > sure > it >> > only took them 15 minutes and I am sure you could go there and have it > done. >> > If I had realised how expensive the postage was (18 from me to them) I >> > would have driven up there ! >> > >> > Like many things someone who has done 50 such pressings will be more > aware >> > of the limitations and the level of force required. I didn't, so it was >> > worth the extra 50. >> > >> > Draining the water system is trivial. Take off Air filter (you would > have to >> > do that anyway to get the carbs off). Take off water filler cap. Put > bowl >> > underneath bungey. Be ready to move bowl. Use Stanley knife to cut the > pipe >> > at the back of the engine just below the flywheel cover (and THAT is an > over >> > description of a flimsy bit of plastic that does not keep water out of > the >> > flywheel housing !). Make a decisive cut. Water p*sses out, into bowl > which >> > you move to catch as much as possible to avoid having to clean it up >> > off > the >> > floor. (You won't be re-using it !) >> > >> > After inserting the t-pieces and replacement of the heater connected > carbs, >> > fill up the water and bleed the pipe between the heaters as specified >> > in > the >> > instructions. And Bob is your mother's brother ! >> > >> > :-) >> > >> > Richard >> > Richard F.W. Holder 01279 842804 (POTS) >> > Bell House, Bell Lane, 01279 842942 (fax) >> > Widford, Ware, Herts, 07860 367423 (mobile) >> > SG12 8SH email : richard.holder@avnet.co.uk >> > Europa Classic Tri-gear : G-OWWW, High Cross >> > PA-28-181 : Piper Archer : G-JANA, EGSG (Stapleford) >> > >> > >> >> > > >


    Message 20


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    Time: 01:26:35 PM PST US
    From: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
    Subject: Re: Manifold pressure gauge
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk> No doubt Bryan will respond, but I think he ran into the same brick wall and is similarly 'spitting'! Duncan Mcf. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Holder" <rholder@avnet.co.uk> Subject: Europa-List: Manifold pressure gauge > --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder <rholder@avnet.co.uk> > > Hi, just received the Dec 2004 issue of the Europa Flyer. > > I am very interested to see that Brian Allsop managed to get his Kremen > CS/VP prop approved without a manifold pressure gauge. > > When I put my Airmaster on my aircraft at the initial build I saw that > Airmaster and Rotax did not require a MAP and so built my panel accordingly. > > When it came to the Permit to Test Fly Donaldson INSISTED on the fitting of > a MAP. I argued that there was no requirement from the manufacturer of > either bit of kit. He insisted. Sending me a copy of some JAR "minimum > equipment" list which showed that a MAP was required for a CS prop. Probably > written in 1948 ! > > Anyway he is the king of this stuff and I had no option but to fit it > (spitting !) on a sub-panel that destroyed the looks of my panel. > > Actually it is very useful for setting power. > > So how come Brian didn't need one ? It is only required for CS props - not > VP props. > > I am interested about the description of VP and CS in the article. The > Airmaster gives a VP option just as an aside. I have not used it yet. The > Airmaster controller has switched positions for Take-Off (5700 rpm) Climb > (5400) and Cruise (5000) plus a position where you can set any rpm you want. > > The Kremen seems to be a mixture of CS and VP almost as separate functions, > when really the CS could be used all the time if all the required features > are there. > > Unless someone disagrees ! > > :-) > > Richard > Richard F.W. Holder 01279 842804 (POTS) > Bell House, Bell Lane, 01279 842942 (fax) > Widford, Ware, Herts, 07860 367423 (mobile) > SG12 8SH email : richard.holder@avnet.co.uk > Europa Classic Tri-gear : G-OWWW, High Cross > PA-28-181 : Piper Archer : G-JANA, EGSG (Stapleford) > >


    Message 21


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    Time: 01:36:19 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Carb Icing
    From: Richard Holder <rholder@avnet.co.uk>
    --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder <rholder@avnet.co.uk> > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Carl Pattinson" > <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk> > > Thanks for your input William, sounds encouraging. > > Just looking at my engine manuals, I dont understand why the return pipe has > to be attached so close to the water pump inlet. It would seem that anywhere > in the return line would have the same result. Cutting the pipe where it > runs along the top of the engine would be much easier and would be far less > messy. > > Anyone know of a good reason why this wont work. > > Presumably the other end of the circuit is connected somewhere between the > expansion tank and the radiator inlet connection. Or is it between the top > return manifold and the expansion tank (probably higher water pressure at > this point). The top takeoff point is between the top collector where the pressure cap sits, and the #2 cylinder head (left front cylinder). A t piece goes in there and a pipe goes to the left hand heater. Then from the left hand heater to the right hand heater, and then from the right hand heater to a t-piece put into the pipe from the bottom of the engine that goes to the radiator. I think you need a "head" of water in the heating circuit otherwise you may end up with an airlock. NOT in the expansion pipe between the top collector and the overflow bottle. That would be crazy ! Best to RTFM ! (read the flipping manual !) AND follow them ! Richard Richard F.W. Holder 01279 842804 (POTS) Bell House, Bell Lane, 01279 842942 (fax) Widford, Ware, Herts, 07860 367423 (mobile) SG12 8SH email : richard.holder@avnet.co.uk ++++++++ Please note new email address ++++++++ Europa Classic Tri-gear : G-OWWW, High Cross PA-28-181 : Piper Archer : G-JANA, EGSG (Stapleford)


    Message 22


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    Time: 01:50:52 PM PST US
    From: Terry Seaver <terrys@cisco.com>
    Subject: Re: Carb Icing
    --> Europa-List message posted by: Terry Seaver <terrys@cisco.com> We have had problems with hot starts on hotter days, you could smell the gas getting boiled out of the carbs. Starting was difficult until the engine cooled down (we learned to watch the carb heat gauge). Turning off the carb heat immediately after exiting the runway helped a lot with the hot starting. By the time we got back to the hanger, the carb heat would be down to nearly ambient, vs well above 50 degC if the carb heat is left on (the carb heat gauge does not register about 50 degC). We normally run auto gas, which may make the problem worse because of its lower vapor pressure/boiling temp compared to 100LL. Terry JEFF ROBERTS wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: JEFF ROBERTS <jeff@rmmm.net> > > Like so many others I didn't fit a tap. Thought leaving it on couldn't > hurt anything. Does it need to be off for a hot start? > Jeff > A258 > > On Jan 21, 2005, at 11:19 AM, Terry Seaver wrote: > > >>--> Europa-List message posted by: Terry Seaver <terrys@cisco.com> >> >>The 912S with XS cold air plenum can DEFINITELY get carb ice, don't >>doubt it for a moment, both on the ground and in the air. The Skydrive >>carb heat clears the ice quickly once turned on. We only turn it off >>when we expect to do a hot start after a flight, letting the carbs cool >>on the taxi to the ramp after landing. >> >>Terry Seaver >>A135 / N135TD >> >>NEEL Jean Philippe wrote: >> >>>--> Europa-List message posted by: NEEL Jean Philippe >>><jeanphilippeneel@yahoo.fr> >>> >>>No doubt: every system works! >>>Why?Because I think 912 does not know carb icing. 600h flying in the >>>alps in summer and winter I never had icing troubles at low descent >>>rate (1000ft/min max and 4000rpm mini.) >>>I am afraid there is often confusion beteewn carb icing and misfiring >>>or fuel alimentation . >>>May be that's not true for 912S >>>Jean Philipppe >>> >>> >>>mau11 <mau11@free.fr> wrote: >>>--> Europa-List message posted by: "mau11" >>> >>>Hello, >>>I know this system, the big problem is the permanent upload charge of >>>electrical network during service 60w. >>> >>>Personnaly I use Skydrive since 250 hours (I am very happy)and the two >>>main advantage are: >>>1 no electrical consumption >>>2 Permanent service (I had a valve into the cowling for shut down but >>>I >>>never used) >>> >>>Monowheel N145 >>> >>>--|-- >>>--------(*)-------- >>> >>>Michel AUVRAY >>> >>> >>>-----Message d'origine----- >>>De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com >>>[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Carl >>>Pattinson >>>Envoy : vendredi 21 janvier 2005 00:26 >>>: europa-list@matronics.com >>>Objet : Europa-List: Carb Icing >>> >>> >>>--> Europa-List message posted by: "Carl Pattinson" >>>--> >>> >>>I recently commented on the Skydrive vs the ST Aviation carb heater >>>option. >>> >>>Here is the link for the ST version. There is a photo showing how it >>>is >>>fitted. >>> >>>http://www.jabiru.co.uk/IceEliminator.htm >>> >>> >>> >>>--------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > > >


    Message 23


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    Time: 01:59:06 PM PST US
    From: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
    Subject: Re: Carb Icing
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk> Carl, I think you'll find that the heater elements are two at 30w in each heater, So total load upto 120w. Another thing to consider is that these seem to be proven on the Jabiru (with its carb buried at the back of the engine not far behind the exhaust), but you'll be entering the experimental arena by fitting them to the 912. Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Carb Icing > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Carl Pattinson" <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk> > > I believe you are wrong when you say there is a permanent 60w load on the > power bus. The ST system has 2x 15 watt heaters on each deicer module. They > can be switched independently and used together or separately. > > The total load on all 4 heaters (2 per carb) is 60 watts but in flight it > would be sufficient to only utilise half the load to keep the carbs warm. > The additional 30 watts could be switched in on takeoff and landing (or when > needed). > > Unless you are running an incredibly complex panel you shouldnt be needing > the output which the alternator is capable of delivering. > > The only reason I am considering these is because I am retrofitting my > heating system and I dont wish to have to drain down the radiators etc. > > If I had the choice (ie: prior to completing our Europa) I would have > definitely opted for the skydrive system as I think it is an inherently > better design ( it can be left on permanently and consumes negligible power/ > energy). My main issues are with the installation process. > > My only concern over the ST system is that the heatsource is somewhat > localised (heater is bolted to the LHS of the carb whereas the Skydrive > system distributes the heat evenly where it is required. > > From what I have been told the Skydrive is difficult to fit and really > requires a hydraulic press to force the heater unit inside the carb body. I > wonder how many have been split/ damaged in the process. > > Does anybody know if Skydrive offer a fitting service. I would be concerned > that I might be picking up the cost for a new carb unit if anything went > wrong. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "mau11" <mau11@free.fr> > To: <europa-list@matronics.com> > Subject: RE : Europa-List: Carb Icing > > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "mau11" <mau11@free.fr> > > > > Hello, > > I know this system, the big problem is the permanent upload charge of > > electrical network during service 60w. > > > > Personnaly I use Skydrive since 250 hours (I am very happy)and the two > > main advantage are: > > 1 no electrical consumption > > 2 Permanent service (I had a valve into the cowling for shut down but I > > never used) > > > > Monowheel N145 > > > > --|-- > > --------(*)-------- > > > > Michel AUVRAY > > > > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Carl > > Pattinson > > Envoy : vendredi 21 janvier 2005 00:26 > > : europa-list@matronics.com > > Objet : Europa-List: Carb Icing > > > > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Carl Pattinson" > > --> <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk> > > > > I recently commented on the Skydrive vs the ST Aviation carb heater > > option. > > > > Here is the link for the ST version. There is a photo showing how it is > > fitted. > > > > http://www.jabiru.co.uk/IceEliminator.htm > > > > > > > >


    Message 24


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    Time: 02:05:19 PM PST US
    From: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
    Subject: Re: Carb Icing
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk> I seem to have hot start problems at carb temps. above about 35C; what 'threshold' have you experienced (other than somewhere above 50C)? Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Seaver" <terrys@cisco.com> Subject: Re: RE : Europa-List: Carb Icing > --> Europa-List message posted by: Terry Seaver <terrys@cisco.com> > > We have had problems with hot starts on hotter days, you could smell the > gas getting boiled out of the carbs. Starting was difficult until the > engine cooled down (we learned to watch the carb heat gauge). Turning > off the carb heat immediately after exiting the runway helped a lot with > the hot starting. By the time we got back to the hanger, the carb heat > would be down to nearly ambient, vs well above 50 degC if the carb heat > is left on (the carb heat gauge does not register about 50 degC). We > normally run auto gas, which may make the problem worse because of its > lower vapor pressure/boiling temp compared to 100LL. > > Terry > > JEFF ROBERTS wrote: > > --> Europa-List message posted by: JEFF ROBERTS <jeff@rmmm.net> > > > > Like so many others I didn't fit a tap. Thought leaving it on couldn't > > hurt anything. Does it need to be off for a hot start? > > Jeff > > A258 > > > > On Jan 21, 2005, at 11:19 AM, Terry Seaver wrote: > > > > > >>--> Europa-List message posted by: Terry Seaver <terrys@cisco.com> > >> > >>The 912S with XS cold air plenum can DEFINITELY get carb ice, don't > >>doubt it for a moment, both on the ground and in the air. The Skydrive > >>carb heat clears the ice quickly once turned on. We only turn it off > >>when we expect to do a hot start after a flight, letting the carbs cool > >>on the taxi to the ramp after landing. > >> > >>Terry Seaver > >>A135 / N135TD > >> > >>NEEL Jean Philippe wrote: > >> > >>>--> Europa-List message posted by: NEEL Jean Philippe > >>><jeanphilippeneel@yahoo.fr> > >>> > >>>No doubt: every system works! > >>>Why?Because I think 912 does not know carb icing. 600h flying in the > >>>alps in summer and winter I never had icing troubles at low descent > >>>rate (1000ft/min max and 4000rpm mini.) > >>>I am afraid there is often confusion beteewn carb icing and misfiring > >>>or fuel alimentation . > >>>May be that's not true for 912S > >>>Jean Philipppe > >>> > >>> > >>>mau11 <mau11@free.fr> wrote: > >>>--> Europa-List message posted by: "mau11" > >>> > >>>Hello, > >>>I know this system, the big problem is the permanent upload charge of > >>>electrical network during service 60w. > >>> > >>>Personnaly I use Skydrive since 250 hours (I am very happy)and the two > >>>main advantage are: > >>>1 no electrical consumption > >>>2 Permanent service (I had a valve into the cowling for shut down but > >>>I > >>>never used) > >>> > >>>Monowheel N145 > >>> > >>>--|-- > >>>--------(*)-------- > >>> > >>>Michel AUVRAY > >>> > >>> > >>>-----Message d'origine----- > >>>De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > >>>[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Carl > >>>Pattinson > >>>Envoy : vendredi 21 janvier 2005 00:26 > >>>: europa-list@matronics.com > >>>Objet : Europa-List: Carb Icing > >>> > >>> > >>>--> Europa-List message posted by: "Carl Pattinson" > >>>--> > >>> > >>>I recently commented on the Skydrive vs the ST Aviation carb heater > >>>option. > >>> > >>>Here is the link for the ST version. There is a photo showing how it > >>>is > >>>fitted. > >>> > >>>http://www.jabiru.co.uk/IceEliminator.htm > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>--------------------------------- > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >


    Message 25


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    Time: 02:54:53 PM PST US
    From: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
    Subject: Manifold pressure gauge
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk> Hi! Richard I find myself a little bemused why the resistance to fitting a Manifold Pressure Gauge, apart from needing room on the panel? If you have a CS installation without the gauge you will have no indication as to how you are loading the engine, that is to say RPM is no longer an indication of power. So it becomes possible to run the engine at all RPM in a labouring condition not to be recommended for cruise configuration with respect to fuel consumption and engine well being. My MT CS prop. will hold the engine RPM at say 2,500 even with maximum MP at say 30 inches, where maximum recommended is about 22 inches. The rule of thumb is so called "squared" Which means 24" FOR 2,400 rpm ON A DIRECT DRIVE ENGINE. However I've managed to identify on the Jabiru 3300 that a lower MP with a slightly higher RPM gives a better fuel performance. (no snipes about fuel usage comparison with the Rotax thanks Duncan the scenario still applies) Problem without a MP Gauge is knowing the effect of the ambient and altitude changes and in pressure relative to engine performance. Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa Kit 337 MKI/Jabiru 3300 -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Holder Subject: Europa-List: Manifold pressure gauge --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder <rholder@avnet.co.uk> Hi, just received the Dec 2004 issue of the Europa Flyer. I am very interested to see that Brian Allsop managed to get his Kremen CS/VP prop approved without a manifold pressure gauge. When I put my Airmaster on my aircraft at the initial build I saw that Airmaster and Rotax did not require a MAP and so built my panel accordingly. When it came to the Permit to Test Fly Donaldson INSISTED on the fitting of a MAP. I argued that there was no requirement from the manufacturer of either bit of kit. He insisted. Sending me a copy of some JAR "minimum equipment" list which showed that a MAP was required for a CS prop. Probably written in 1948 ! Anyway he is the king of this stuff and I had no option but to fit it (spitting !) on a sub-panel that destroyed the looks of my panel. Actually it is very useful for setting power. So how come Brian didn't need one ? It is only required for CS props - not VP props. I am interested about the description of VP and CS in the article. The Airmaster gives a VP option just as an aside. I have not used it yet. The Airmaster controller has switched positions for Take-Off (5700 rpm) Climb (5400) and Cruise (5000) plus a position where you can set any rpm you want. The Kremen seems to be a mixture of CS and VP almost as separate functions, when really the CS could be used all the time if all the required features are there. Unless someone disagrees ! :-) Richard


    Message 26


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    Time: 03:10:21 PM PST US
    From: Terry Seaver <terrys@cisco.com>
    Subject: Re: Carb Icing
    --> Europa-List message posted by: Terry Seaver <terrys@cisco.com> Hi Duncan, I'm sorry, but I haven't really paid that much attention to the specific temperature that could be used as a go/no-go threshold. I do know we still had problems starting when the temp was just below 50 degC (the max readable on our carb temp gauge). If I had to guess, I would say 35 degC might be a reasonable threshold. I do know that what we have had carb ice, the carb temp has been in the vicinity of +2 degC. regards, Terry Duncan McFadyean wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk> > > I seem to have hot start problems at carb temps. above about 35C; what > 'threshold' have you experienced (other than somewhere above 50C)? > > Duncan McF. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Terry Seaver" <terrys@cisco.com> > To: <europa-list@matronics.com> > Subject: Re: RE : Europa-List: Carb Icing > > > >>--> Europa-List message posted by: Terry Seaver <terrys@cisco.com> >> >>We have had problems with hot starts on hotter days, you could smell the >>gas getting boiled out of the carbs. Starting was difficult until the >>engine cooled down (we learned to watch the carb heat gauge). Turning >>off the carb heat immediately after exiting the runway helped a lot with >>the hot starting. By the time we got back to the hanger, the carb heat >>would be down to nearly ambient, vs well above 50 degC if the carb heat >>is left on (the carb heat gauge does not register about 50 degC). We >>normally run auto gas, which may make the problem worse because of its >>lower vapor pressure/boiling temp compared to 100LL. >> >>Terry >> >>JEFF ROBERTS wrote: >> >>>--> Europa-List message posted by: JEFF ROBERTS <jeff@rmmm.net> >>> >>>Like so many others I didn't fit a tap. Thought leaving it on couldn't >>>hurt anything. Does it need to be off for a hot start? >>>Jeff >>>A258 >>> >>>On Jan 21, 2005, at 11:19 AM, Terry Seaver wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>--> Europa-List message posted by: Terry Seaver <terrys@cisco.com> >>>> >>>>The 912S with XS cold air plenum can DEFINITELY get carb ice, don't >>>>doubt it for a moment, both on the ground and in the air. The Skydrive >>>>carb heat clears the ice quickly once turned on. We only turn it off >>>>when we expect to do a hot start after a flight, letting the carbs cool >>>>on the taxi to the ramp after landing. >>>> >>>>Terry Seaver >>>>A135 / N135TD >>>> >>>>NEEL Jean Philippe wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>--> Europa-List message posted by: NEEL Jean Philippe >>>>><jeanphilippeneel@yahoo.fr> >>>>> >>>>>No doubt: every system works! >>>>>Why?Because I think 912 does not know carb icing. 600h flying in the >>>>>alps in summer and winter I never had icing troubles at low descent >>>>>rate (1000ft/min max and 4000rpm mini.) >>>>>I am afraid there is often confusion beteewn carb icing and misfiring >>>>>or fuel alimentation . >>>>>May be that's not true for 912S >>>>>Jean Philipppe >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>mau11 <mau11@free.fr> wrote: >>>>>--> Europa-List message posted by: "mau11" >>>>> >>>>>Hello, >>>>>I know this system, the big problem is the permanent upload charge of >>>>>electrical network during service 60w. >>>>> >>>>>Personnaly I use Skydrive since 250 hours (I am very happy)and the two >>>>>main advantage are: >>>>>1 no electrical consumption >>>>>2 Permanent service (I had a valve into the cowling for shut down but >>>>>I >>>>>never used) >>>>> >>>>>Monowheel N145 >>>>> >>>>>--|-- >>>>>--------(*)-------- >>>>> >>>>>Michel AUVRAY >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>-----Message d'origine----- >>>>>De : owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com >>>>>[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Carl >>>>>Pattinson >>>>>Envoy : vendredi 21 janvier 2005 00:26 >>>>>: europa-list@matronics.com >>>>>Objet : Europa-List: Carb Icing >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>--> Europa-List message posted by: "Carl Pattinson" >>>>>--> >>>>> >>>>>I recently commented on the Skydrive vs the ST Aviation carb heater >>>>>option. >>>>> >>>>>Here is the link for the ST version. There is a photo showing how it >>>>>is >>>>>fitted. >>>>> >>>>>http://www.jabiru.co.uk/IceEliminator.htm >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>--------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > > >


    Message 27


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    Time: 03:12:37 PM PST US
    From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
    Subject: Re: Carb Icing
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "Carl Pattinson" <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk> I dont have the manual, thats why i'm guessing ! Didnt mean the overflow pipe but the section between the return manifold (where all the outputs from cyl heads come together) and the expansion tank (where the pressure cap is fitted). On mine it is a section of pipe about 4 inches long, but I believe mine is a one off. Our engine is the original engine fitted to G-YURO (must be about 12 years old). There is almost certainly be a pressure differential between these two points because they are short circuiting the radiators. It might be necessary to clamp the upstream radiator hose initially to purge any air from the carb heater system. No doubt i'm reinventing the wheel. As you say, read the instructions. (but I dont have a copy?) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Holder" <rholder@avnet.co.uk> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Carb Icing > --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder <rholder@avnet.co.uk> > > >> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Carl Pattinson" >> <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk> >> >> Thanks for your input William, sounds encouraging. >> >> Just looking at my engine manuals, I dont understand why the return pipe >> has >> to be attached so close to the water pump inlet. It would seem that >> anywhere >> in the return line would have the same result. Cutting the pipe where it >> runs along the top of the engine would be much easier and would be far >> less >> messy. >> >> Anyone know of a good reason why this wont work. >> >> Presumably the other end of the circuit is connected somewhere between >> the >> expansion tank and the radiator inlet connection. Or is it between the >> top >> return manifold and the expansion tank (probably higher water pressure at >> this point). > > The top takeoff point is between the top collector where the pressure cap > sits, and the #2 cylinder head (left front cylinder). > > A t piece goes in there and a pipe goes to the left hand heater. Then from > the left hand heater to the right hand heater, and then from the right > hand > heater to a t-piece put into the pipe from the bottom of the engine that > goes to the radiator. > > I think you need a "head" of water in the heating circuit otherwise you > may > end up with an airlock. > > NOT in the expansion pipe between the top collector and the overflow > bottle. > That would be crazy ! > > Best to RTFM ! (read the flipping manual !) AND follow them ! > > Richard > Richard F.W. Holder 01279 842804 (POTS) > Bell House, Bell Lane, 01279 842942 (fax) > Widford, Ware, Herts, 07860 367423 (mobile) > SG12 8SH email : richard.holder@avnet.co.uk > ++++++++ Please note new email address ++++++++ > Europa Classic Tri-gear : G-OWWW, High Cross > PA-28-181 : Piper Archer : G-JANA, EGSG (Stapleford) > > >


    Message 28


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    Time: 03:16:58 PM PST US
    From: Terry Seaver <terrys@cisco.com>
    Subject: Re: Manifold pressure gauge
    --> Europa-List message posted by: Terry Seaver <terrys@cisco.com> Hi Bob, I would not say that MAP is the only way to measure power when equipped with a constant speed prop. We find that fuel flow is also a good indication of relative power, using it probably more often than MAP. Although with the 912 and 912s, the mixture gets richer at altitude, making the fuel flow reading somewhat higher than at sea level, for the same power (MAP, HP, etc.). regards, Terry Seaver R.C.Harrison wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk> > > Hi! Richard > I find myself a little bemused why the resistance to fitting a Manifold > Pressure Gauge, apart from needing room on the panel? If you have a CS > installation without the gauge you will have no indication as to how you > are loading the engine, that is to say RPM is no longer an indication of > power. > So it becomes possible to run the engine at all RPM in a labouring > condition not to be recommended for cruise configuration with respect to > fuel consumption and engine well being. My MT CS prop. will hold the > engine RPM at say 2,500 even with maximum MP at say 30 inches, where > maximum recommended is about 22 inches. The rule of thumb is so called > "squared" > Which means 24" FOR 2,400 rpm ON A DIRECT DRIVE ENGINE. However I've > managed to identify on the Jabiru 3300 that a lower MP with a slightly > higher RPM gives a better fuel performance. (no snipes about fuel usage > comparison with the Rotax thanks Duncan the scenario still applies) > Problem without a MP Gauge is knowing the effect of the ambient and > altitude changes and in pressure relative to engine performance. > > Regards > Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa Kit 337 MKI/Jabiru 3300 > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard > Holder > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Europa-List: Manifold pressure gauge > > --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder <rholder@avnet.co.uk> > > Hi, just received the Dec 2004 issue of the Europa Flyer. > > I am very interested to see that Brian Allsop managed to get his Kremen > CS/VP prop approved without a manifold pressure gauge. > > When I put my Airmaster on my aircraft at the initial build I saw that > Airmaster and Rotax did not require a MAP and so built my panel > accordingly. > > When it came to the Permit to Test Fly Donaldson INSISTED on the fitting > of > a MAP. I argued that there was no requirement from the manufacturer of > either bit of kit. He insisted. Sending me a copy of some JAR "minimum > equipment" list which showed that a MAP was required for a CS prop. > Probably > written in 1948 ! > > Anyway he is the king of this stuff and I had no option but to fit it > (spitting !) on a sub-panel that destroyed the looks of my panel. > > Actually it is very useful for setting power. > > So how come Brian didn't need one ? It is only required for CS props - > not > VP props. > > I am interested about the description of VP and CS in the article. The > Airmaster gives a VP option just as an aside. I have not used it yet. > The > Airmaster controller has switched positions for Take-Off (5700 rpm) > Climb > (5400) and Cruise (5000) plus a position where you can set any rpm you > want. > > The Kremen seems to be a mixture of CS and VP almost as separate > functions, > when really the CS could be used all the time if all the required > features > are there. > > Unless someone disagrees ! > > :-) > > Richard > > > > >


    Message 29


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    Time: 03:27:15 PM PST US
    From: "KARL HEINDL" <kheindl@msn.com>
    Subject: Re: Carb Icing
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "KARL HEINDL" <kheindl@msn.com> Carl, You worry too much. Just follow the instructions from Skydrive. There is no need to drain the system, just a topup to replace spilled coolant. I used a large vise for pushing on the heater bodies, a job which took about 10 minutes. Be sure everything is square, then just turn the handle and keep it moving slowly and steadily. So far I had no problems with hot starting, but then I usually open the inspection doors on top of the cowling if it is just a refuelling stop. Karl >From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk> >Reply-To: europa-list@matronics.com >To: <europa-list@matronics.com> >Subject: Re: Europa-List: Carb Icing >Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 20:52:32 -0000 > >--> Europa-List message posted by: "Carl Pattinson" ><carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk> > >Thanks for your input William, sounds encouraging. > >Just looking at my engine manuals, I dont understand why the return pipe >has >to be attached so close to the water pump inlet. It would seem that >anywhere >in the return line would have the same result. Cutting the pipe where it >runs along the top of the engine would be much easier and would be far less >messy. > >Anyone know of a good reason why this wont work. > >Presumably the other end of the circuit is connected somewhere between the >expansion tank and the radiator inlet connection. Or is it between the top >return manifold and the expansion tank (probably higher water pressure at >this point). > >Does anyone have a copy of the installation instructions that I could have. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "William Mills" <combined.merchants@virgin.net> >To: <europa-list@matronics.com> >Subject: Re: Europa-List: Carb Icing > > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "William Mills" > > <combined.merchants@virgin.net> > > > > Hi Carl, > > Mine's a 912 Classic, but I didn't remove the engine. I removed the >pipe, > > cut it, inserted the tee and pipe and then put it back. Fiddley, but > > doable. My heaters have done about 600 hrs without any problems and >give > > much confidence. > > Good luck, > > William > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk> > > To: <europa-list@matronics.com> > > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Carb Icing > > > > > >> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Carl Pattinson" > > <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk> > >> > >> I totally agree with the bit about paying Skydrive to fit the carb >heater > > modules. > >> > >> Draining the water system is trivial. Take off Air filter (you would >have > > to > >> do that anyway to get the carbs off). Take off water filler cap. Put >bowl > >> underneath bungey. Be ready to move bowl. > >> > >> OK so far > >> > >> Use Stanley knife to cut the pipe > >> at the back of the engine just below the flywheel cover (and THAT is an > > over > >> description of a flimsy bit of plastic that does not keep water out of > >> the > >> flywheel housing !). Make a decisive cut. Water p*sses out, into bowl > > which > >> you move to catch as much as possible to avoid having to clean it up >off > > the > >> floor. (You won't be re-using it !) > >> > >> Unless I have read this wrong heres another reason I dont want to >attempt > > this. On the original Classic engine assembly, there is virtually no >space > > between the firewall and the back of the engine (my engine dosent have >the > > plastic cover that you mention). It would be damn near impossible to >make > > the cuts that you describe without removing the engine and unless the > > engine > > breaks I dont intend to take it off. > >> > >> If I have got this wrong, let me know. > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Richard Holder" <rholder@avnet.co.uk> > >> To: <europa-list@matronics.com> > >> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Carb Icing > >> > >> > >> > --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder ><rholder@avnet.co.uk> > >> > > >> >> From what I have been told the Skydrive is difficult to fit and >really > >> >> requires a hydraulic press to force the heater unit inside the carb > > body. I > >> >> wonder how many have been split/ damaged in the process. > >> >> > >> >> Does anybody know if Skydrive offer a fitting service. I would be > > concerned > >> >> that I might be picking up the cost for a new carb unit if anything > > went > >> >> wrong. > >> > > >> > I came to the same conclusion as the carbs were definitely not round > > enough > >> > to even hold the heater on a thou or two while being put into the >vice. > > In > >> > the end, rather than risk a 400 or more carb (or two !) I sent them > >> > back > > to > >> > SkyDrive and they fitted them for 15. OK the postage added another 30 > > but > >> > I considered it money well spent ! > >> > > >> > In fact my recommendation is that you take your carbs off and send >them > > to > >> > SkyDrive and order the heaters and their fitting at the same time. >That > > way > >> > you don't pay for an extra leg of the journey for the heaters. I am > >> > sure > > it > >> > only took them 15 minutes and I am sure you could go there and have >it > > done. > >> > If I had realised how expensive the postage was (18 from me to them) >I > >> > would have driven up there ! > >> > > >> > Like many things someone who has done 50 such pressings will be more > > aware > >> > of the limitations and the level of force required. I didn't, so it >was > >> > worth the extra 50. > >> > > >> > Draining the water system is trivial. Take off Air filter (you would > > have to > >> > do that anyway to get the carbs off). Take off water filler cap. Put > > bowl > >> > underneath bungey. Be ready to move bowl. Use Stanley knife to cut >the > > pipe > >> > at the back of the engine just below the flywheel cover (and THAT is >an > > over > >> > description of a flimsy bit of plastic that does not keep water out >of > > the > >> > flywheel housing !). Make a decisive cut. Water p*sses out, into bowl > > which > >> > you move to catch as much as possible to avoid having to clean it up > >> > off > > the > >> > floor. (You won't be re-using it !) > >> > > >> > After inserting the t-pieces and replacement of the heater connected > > carbs, > >> > fill up the water and bleed the pipe between the heaters as specified > >> > in > > the > >> > instructions. And Bob is your mother's brother ! > >> > > >> > :-) > >> > > >> > Richard > >> > Richard F.W. Holder 01279 842804 (POTS) > >> > Bell House, Bell Lane, 01279 842942 (fax) > >> > Widford, Ware, Herts, 07860 367423 (mobile) > >> > SG12 8SH email : richard.holder@avnet.co.uk > >> > Europa Classic Tri-gear : G-OWWW, High Cross > >> > PA-28-181 : Piper Archer : G-JANA, EGSG (Stapleford) > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >


    Message 30


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    Time: 04:12:59 PM PST US
    From: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
    Subject: Manifold pressure gauge
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk> Hi! Terry I didn't actually say that the MP Gauge was the ONLY way to read the power. I do consider that it is the most versatile being able to read just what is entering the engine. However I would guess that you could still be "labouring" the engine to just rely on fuel flow without some very extensive charts covering power output at differing ambient temps. pressures and humidity all relative to altitude. Regards Bob H G-PTAG Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Seaver Subject: Re: Europa-List: Manifold pressure gauge --> Europa-List message posted by: Terry Seaver <terrys@cisco.com> Hi Bob, I would not say that MAP is the only way to measure power when equipped with a constant speed prop. We find that fuel flow is also a good indication of relative power, using it probably more often than MAP. Although with the 912 and 912s, the mixture gets richer at altitude, making the fuel flow reading somewhat higher than at sea level, for the same power (MAP, HP, etc.). regards, Terry Seaver R.C.Harrison wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk> > > Hi! Richard > I find myself a little bemused why the resistance to fitting a Manifold > Pressure Gauge, apart from needing room on the panel? If you have a CS > installation without the gauge you will have no indication as to how you > are loading the engine, that is to say RPM is no longer an indication of > power. > So it becomes possible to run the engine at all RPM in a labouring > condition not to be recommended for cruise configuration with respect to > fuel consumption and engine well being. My MT CS prop. will hold the > engine RPM at say 2,500 even with maximum MP at say 30 inches, where > maximum recommended is about 22 inches. The rule of thumb is so called > "squared" > Which means 24" FOR 2,400 rpm ON A DIRECT DRIVE ENGINE. However I've > managed to identify on the Jabiru 3300 that a lower MP with a slightly > higher RPM gives a better fuel performance. (no snipes about fuel usage > comparison with the Rotax thanks Duncan the scenario still applies) > Problem without a MP Gauge is knowing the effect of the ambient and > altitude changes and in pressure relative to engine performance. > > Regards > Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa Kit 337 MKI/Jabiru 3300 > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard > Holder > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Europa-List: Manifold pressure gauge > > --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder <rholder@avnet.co.uk> > > Hi, just received the Dec 2004 issue of the Europa Flyer. > > I am very interested to see that Brian Allsop managed to get his Kremen > CS/VP prop approved without a manifold pressure gauge. > > When I put my Airmaster on my aircraft at the initial build I saw that > Airmaster and Rotax did not require a MAP and so built my panel > accordingly. > > When it came to the Permit to Test Fly Donaldson INSISTED on the fitting > of > a MAP. I argued that there was no requirement from the manufacturer of > either bit of kit. He insisted. Sending me a copy of some JAR "minimum > equipment" list which showed that a MAP was required for a CS prop. > Probably > written in 1948 ! > > Anyway he is the king of this stuff and I had no option but to fit it > (spitting !) on a sub-panel that destroyed the looks of my panel. > > Actually it is very useful for setting power. > > So how come Brian didn't need one ? It is only required for CS props - > not > VP props. > > I am interested about the description of VP and CS in the article. The > Airmaster gives a VP option just as an aside. I have not used it yet. > The > Airmaster controller has switched positions for Take-Off (5700 rpm) > Climb > (5400) and Cruise (5000) plus a position where you can set any rpm you > want. > > The Kremen seems to be a mixture of CS and VP almost as separate > functions, > when really the CS could be used all the time if all the required > features > are there. > > Unless someone disagrees ! > > :-) > > Richard


    Message 31


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    Time: 04:37:55 PM PST US
    From: Graham Singleton <graham@gflight.f9.co.uk>
    Subject: Re: Europa-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 01/18/05
    --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton <graham@gflight.f9.co.uk> At 23:56 18/01/2005 -0800, you wrote: >Get your minds round that then! >Regards >Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI /Jabiru 3300 My name isn't Ted !:-) Graham -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.


    Message 32


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    Time: 04:47:52 PM PST US
    From: Graham Singleton <graham@gflight.f9.co.uk>
    Subject: credit card refund of europe kit deposit
    --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton <graham@gflight.f9.co.uk> At 23:56 18/01/2005 -0800, you wrote: >--> Europa-List message posted by: Lee Boon Leong <docblee@streamyx.com> > >Wish there is equally good news from REDMAN NICHOLS! Looks like they >have gone to sleep! EMIL never delivered the goods after claiming the >aircraft was in a container awaiting shipment from December 03 to July >04 following full payment for it! I am sure there is grandscale fraud >involved! >Boon >Malaysia Redman Nichols have apparently learnt their trade from the many examples of fraud they have had presented to them in the past. I have been told that even though Sharon held back cheques for orders she knew could not be delivered, the Administrator paid them into EMIL's account, AFTER the company was in admistration. In the full knowledge that nothing would be delivered. That sounds like fraud to me. I wonder how much of a cut Kwislon paid him. Graham -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.


    Message 33


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    Time: 05:39:13 PM PST US
    From: Lmorgan822@aol.com
    Subject: Re: credit card refund of europe kit deposit
    --> Europa-List message posted by: Lmorgan822@aol.com Like I said before, this whole thing smells worse all the time.


    Message 34


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    Time: 07:32:22 PM PST US
    From: "Chuck Popenoe" <cpops@verizon.net>
    Subject: Lock nuts
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "Chuck Popenoe" <cpops@verizon.net> Graham- My conclusions exactly! I wish that I could have explained this as concisely and elegantly as you have! Ted did say the same thing, but I got lost in the zigs and zags ;-) Pops -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham Singleton Subject: Europa-List: Lock nuts --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton --> <graham@gflight.f9.co.uk> At 23:56 20/01/2005 -0800, you wrote: >OK! My little experiment was valid, but I agree that it was the wrong >experiment! I have turned around to becoming completely convinced, >after doing some more thought experiments. Ted has accurately >portrayed the situation, and I hope that we don't have to beat on this >any more! > >Pops Pops! you made me think a little harder, so it wasn't wasted effort. When you back off the lock nut the tension won't change, the nut just behaves as a washer until the thread starts to bite in the opposite direction, Ted put it slightly differently but said the same thing I think? Graham -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. advertising on the Matronics Forums.


    Message 35


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    Time: 10:02:20 PM PST US
    From: JEFF ROBERTS <jeff@rmmm.net>
    Subject: Electrical Layout Page
    --> Europa-List message posted by: JEFF ROBERTS <jeff@rmmm.net> I have miss placed the page out of the manual that has the drawing of the typical electrical layout of the Europa / rotax installation. Does anyone have this in a PDF format or is there anyone that could fax me a copy. Your help would be deeply appreciated. Thanks in advance. Regards, Jeff A258 615-459-4598 Fax


    Message 36


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    Time: 11:09:28 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Manifold pressure gauge
    From: Richard Holder <rholder@avnet.co.uk>
    --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder <rholder@avnet.co.uk> > --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk> > > Hi! Richard > I find myself a little bemused why the resistance to fitting a Manifold > Pressure Gauge, apart from needing room on the panel? If you have a CS > installation without the gauge you will have no indication as to how you > are loading the engine, that is to say RPM is no longer an indication of > power. > So it becomes possible to run the engine at all RPM in a labouring > condition not to be recommended for cruise configuration with respect to > fuel consumption and engine well being. My MT CS prop. will hold the > engine RPM at say 2,500 even with maximum MP at say 30 inches, where > maximum recommended is about 22 inches. The rule of thumb is so called > "squared" > Which means 24" FOR 2,400 rpm ON A DIRECT DRIVE ENGINE. However I've > managed to identify on the Jabiru 3300 that a lower MP with a slightly > higher RPM gives a better fuel performance. (no snipes about fuel usage > comparison with the Rotax thanks Duncan the scenario still applies) > Problem without a MP Gauge is knowing the effect of the ambient and > altitude changes and in pressure relative to engine performance. > > Regards > Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa Kit 337 MKI/Jabiru 3300 Hi I do agree (and said so) that the MAP does allow that measure. However there is NO requirement by Rotax or Airmaster for any restriction in the combination of rpm and MAP. None whatsoever, certainly no requirement for square. I was spitting because I had finished the panel and everything was ready. And Airmaster AND Rotax said that there was no requirement for the gauge. I had to add the MAP to a sub-panel which destroyed the symmetry and lines of the panel. I certainly wasn't going to re-design at that stage. [I am in the process of re-designing now, with the MAP gauge in-panel, but it may not see the light of day for some time as flying is more important than the engineering now that it is running !] My running norm is 5000/25.5 inches I tried 4600/26 which gave the same speed but over 200 litres made no difference to the fuel consumption. If anything it went up ! (that is consistent with your information) but I don't want to run faster than 5000 so I am sticking with 5000/25.5 which gives around 120 knots at 16.2 litres per hour. Oops I wasn't supposed to say that ! :-) Richard Richard F.W. Holder 01279 842804 (POTS) Bell House, Bell Lane, 01279 842942 (fax) Widford, Ware, Herts, 07860 367423 (mobile) SG12 8SH email : richard.holder@avnet.co.uk Europa Classic Tri-gear : G-OWWW, High Cross PA-28-181 : Piper Archer : G-JANA, EGSG (Stapleford)


    Message 37


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    Time: 11:49:19 PM PST US
    From: RoddyEuropa@aol.com
    Subject: Carb ice - draining coolant
    --> Europa-List message posted by: RoddyEuropa@aol.com The coolant can be 'drained' without coolant all over the engine or the floor. Syphon the liquid out of the swirl pot on top of the engine. Then remove the hose going to the radiator and put the syphon tube in it, pushed down to the bottom, and syphon out the rest. Roddy Kesterton #220




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