---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 02/02/05: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:12 AM - Re: Sourcing a 24V battery (Jim Butcher) 2. 08:23 AM - Re: Re: Sourcing a 24V battery (N55XS) 3. 09:20 AM - Re: Re: Sourcing a 24V battery (Cliff Shaw) 4. 10:44 AM - Re: Re: Sourcing a 24V battery, alternative? (Jos Okhuijsen) 5. 01:14 PM - Re: Re: Sourcing a 24V battery (Brad Newell) 6. 03:23 PM - Re: Re: Sourcing a 24V battery (Vaughn Teegarden) 7. 03:57 PM - Re: Re: Sourcing a 24V battery (Tony Krzyzewski) 8. 04:04 PM - Re: Re: Sourcing a 24V battery (Fred Fillinger) 9. 11:24 PM - IFR redundancy, was 2nd battery (Jos Okhuijsen) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:12:39 AM PST US From: "Jim Butcher" Subject: Europa-List: Re: Sourcing a 24V battery --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jim Butcher" Nigel, When I looked at this I talked to Tim at B&C. Their advice was to just use two small 12V batteries in series. The cell to cell resistance is about the same as the jumper will be. In fact their small 24 batt is exactly that, 2 12V in series. I also concluded that the starter would be OK on 24V since it is (should be) so intermittent. I went back to the 12V system since I already own a heated 12V pitot which I found can't be modified or replaced cheaply. I do have dual alternators, the second one being a 40 Amp running off the crankshaft similar to Jim Nelson's. Jim Butcher A185 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:23:21 AM PST US From: N55XS Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Sourcing a 24V battery --> Europa-List message posted by: N55XS Jim Butcher wrote: >--> Europa-List message posted by: "Jim Butcher" > >Nigel, > >When I looked at this I talked to Tim at B&C. Their advice was to just use >two small 12V batteries in series. The cell to cell resistance is about the >same as the jumper will be. In fact their small 24 batt is exactly that, 2 >12V in series. I also concluded that the starter would be OK on 24V since >it is (should be) so intermittent. I went back to the 12V system since I >already own a heated 12V pitot which I found can't be modified or replaced >cheaply. I do have dual alternators, the second one being a 40 Amp running >off the crankshaft similar to Jim Nelson's. > >Jim Butcher A185 > > Another advantage to running two 12v batteries, in series, is that you can draw off either of the single batteries, individually, should you need only 12 volts... -- Jeff - A055 Finishing the panel and waiting on the paint guy... -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:20:13 AM PST US From: "Cliff Shaw" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Sourcing a 24V battery --> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" 12 volts of 24 volts that is the question. In building an Europa, made of fiberglass, you will have to wire your ground side conductor. This split battery concept could get you in a very confusing situation. (Fire hazard too) I would not do it and am taking this opportunity to recommend against it. The only advantage is the longer "draw down" time available for some electronic equipment. This equipment is designed to run on less than 24 volts and has a internal power supply to regulate the incoming power to the voltage needed. (some times it as low as 3 volts) My panel seems to work OK down to 10 volts. I do recommend you install a top-of-the-line 12 Volt R type battery (ODYSSEY) of a larger size than minimum. ( 18 Ah or bigger if you are really worried) The bigger battery will be more reliable in usage than anything else you can do to improve your electrical system. Cliff Shaw 1041 Euclid ave. Edmonds, WA 98020 425 776 5555 http://www.europaowners.org/WileE ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:44:40 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Sourcing a 24V battery, alternative? From: "Jos Okhuijsen" --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jos Okhuijsen" > Another advantage to running two 12v batteries, in series, is that you > can draw off either of the single batteries, individually, should you > need only 12 volts... Uneven discharge of 2 batteries in series will change their internal resistance, result is that their lifetime will be greatly reduced by the subsequent uneven charging of the cells. Pfft what a sentence.. Hope it gives the picture though. I will be going for 2 separate batteries and an extra generator each driving part of the loads instead of the vacuumpump on the Rotax. This will give me an independant electrical source to switch to for the essential bus, if one of the battery-regulater-chargers would develop a failure. Fully electrical with an efis is lighter, cheaper easier and probably more reliable then a vacuumsystem too. Regards, Jos Okhuijsen ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:14:39 PM PST US From: "Brad Newell" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Sourcing a 24V battery --> Europa-List message posted by: "Brad Newell" Hey, Cliff... We've run a parallel system on the boat, for both the engine and "house" and they work fine. How about using two 12v batteries with a flip/flop switch, if one fails? ...And I "second" your views on the magazine from the Club. Work has been shut down here since Christmas due to congestion in the living room. About to start up again. And we'll be shut down for a trip to Oz in May/June for another grandchild. Are there any builders near Melbourne? Cheers, Brad -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cliff Shaw Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Sourcing a 24V battery --> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" 12 volts of 24 volts that is the question. In building an Europa, made of fiberglass, you will have to wire your ground side conductor. This split battery concept could get you in a very confusing situation. (Fire hazard too) I would not do it and am taking this opportunity to recommend against it. The only advantage is the longer "draw down" time available for some electronic equipment. This equipment is designed to run on less than 24 volts and has a internal power supply to regulate the incoming power to the voltage needed. (some times it as low as 3 volts) My panel seems to work OK down to 10 volts. I do recommend you install a top-of-the-line 12 Volt R type battery (ODYSSEY) of a larger size than minimum. ( 18 Ah or bigger if you are really worried) The bigger battery will be more reliable in usage than anything else you can do to improve your electrical system. Cliff Shaw 1041 Euclid ave. Edmonds, WA 98020 425 776 5555 http://www.europaowners.org/WileE ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:23:14 PM PST US From: "Vaughn Teegarden" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Sourcing a 24V battery --> Europa-List message posted by: "Vaughn Teegarden" I will soon have to face the task of wiring my aircraft and plan to have a glass panel from Grand Rapids Technolgy. Since I didn't want to use any steam gages, I have been looking for a dual battery system to insure that I don't run out of sparks. I also wanted it to keep both batterys charged and run on only one when necessary without me having to throw any switches. I have found this website and am in the process of trying to figure it out. Maybe some of you with sparks in your veins could figure it out a lot quicker. http://www.jlc.net/~fcs/EAA_IG/EA_IG_6.htm Vaughn Teegarden N914VA ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:57:58 PM PST US Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Sourcing a 24V battery From: "Tony Krzyzewski" Received-SPF: none --> Europa-List message posted by: "Tony Krzyzewski" >> I have found this website and am in the process of trying to figure it out. Maybe some of you with sparks in your veins could figure it out a lot quicker. http://www.jlc.net/~fcs/EAA_IG/EA_IG_6.htm This site has some good pictures of how a good aircraft installation should look, most don't end up like this! Some really good (and easy to follow) electrical installations with dual batteries can be found at the aero electric connection. Bob Nuckolls is an expert in all things electrical when it comes to aircraft and for those developing an electrical system rather than following the Europa basic installation could do no better than having a good read through Bob's material www.aeroelectric.com Tony ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:04:24 PM PST US From: "Fred Fillinger" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Sourcing a 24V battery --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" > I have been looking for a dual battery system to insure that I don't run out of sparks. I also wanted it to keep both batterys charged and run on only one when necessary without me having to throw any switches. > Vaughn Teegarden > N914VA If this is for VFR only, I don't see the need for that kind of complexity. Browsers of the aeroelectric list on matronics.com will know that the guru there (Nuckolls) is dogmatic in saying a properly-designed, single electrical system is more than sufficient for VFR. Obviously, I agree, though others may not. ;-) For IFR, and an EFIS w/o mechanical redundancy, I have an opinion some may not want to hear! Reg, Fred F. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:24:36 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: IFR redundancy, was 2nd battery From: "Jos Okhuijsen" --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jos Okhuijsen" Fred Fillinger kirjoitti Wed, 2 Feb 2005 19:18:09 -0500: > > For IFR, and an EFIS w/o mechanical redundancy, I have an opinion some > may not want to hear! Ok, I'll take the bait. I would have the Truetracks pictorial pilot addon on the autopilot or a 2nd efis and we were allready agreeing on the 2nd battery generator eh? Regards, Jos Okhuijsen