---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 02/03/05: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:06 AM - Re: Pitch Torque Tube (Duncan McFadyean) 2. 02:06 AM - Re: Pitch Torque Tube (Duncan McFadyean) 3. 02:06 AM - Re: Pitch Torque Tube (Duncan McFadyean) 4. 07:20 AM - Re: IFR redundancy, was 2nd battery (Fred Fillinger) 5. 08:33 AM - Re: IFR redundancy, was 2nd battery (Jos Okhuijsen) 6. 12:05 PM - Re: IFR redundancy, was 2nd battery (Tony Krzyzewski) 7. 02:16 PM - Flap drive and GE12E bearing (Steven Pitt) 8. 03:26 PM - Re: Flap drive and GE12E bearing (N55XS) 9. 03:30 PM - Re: Flap drive and GE12E bearing (R.C.Harrison) 10. 03:58 PM - Re: Flap drive and GE12E bearing (Kingsley Hurst) 11. 05:37 PM - Re: Flap drive and GE12E bearing (Paul McAllister) 12. 07:30 PM - Re: Flap drive and GE12E bearing () ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:06:20 AM PST US From: "Duncan McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Pitch Torque Tube --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" <<> Don't remove so much as to leave less metal at the side than there is around > the hole - i.e. leave as much metal at the side as there is at the top of > the lug (hard to describe, but I guess you'll understand).>> I understand what you mean, but to quote the original promoter of this idea (Neville) this should be a "NO NO"! The lug acts in bending, not tension. So, modifying in the manner proposed might not reduce tensile strength but could reduce bending strength. A chain is as strong as its weakest link and I suspect that these lugs come second to being the weakest part of the elevator system (first prize goes to the TP pins, although the usual mode of failure these pins is not catastrophic). There is a geometry of modification that would not compromise bending strength, but I'll not describe that because this would make me complicit to illegal modification to the control system! Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- From: "M@nsfield" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Pitch Torque Tube > --> Europa-List message posted by: "M@nsfield" > > Hi David, > > A handy tip from Neville is to file a profile in the outer pairs of welded > lugs (where the pitch push rods attach) so there is more rotational movement > before the lugs touch the edge of the CS05 aileron torque tube (where it > sits flush with the CS08 crank). > > Don't remove so much as to leave less metal at the side than there is around > the hole - i.e. leave as much metal at the side as there is at the top of > the lug (hard to describe, but I guess you'll understand). > > I'll see if I can get a picture of this, but my CM is installed so it might > be a bit cluttered in there... > > HTH > > PaulM > XS 383 > CM in, TP in, off to the front for LG frame. > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "David Simenauer" > > I am about to mount the pitch torque tube to the cockpit module. I have > the CS09 brackets clamped in position now. My question is about the amount > of movement I should have. With it in the position I have it now, the pitch > push rods move about 2.25 inches, 55 mm, forward and back. Is this enough? > I have looked, but can't find mention of this in the manual. > > Thanks, > Dave Simenauer > > > Book yourself something to look forward to in 2005. > Cheap flights - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/travel/flights/ > Bargain holidays - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/travel/holidays/ > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:06:20 AM PST US From: "Duncan McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Pitch Torque Tube --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" <<> Don't remove so much as to leave less metal at the side than there is around > the hole - i.e. leave as much metal at the side as there is at the top of > the lug (hard to describe, but I guess you'll understand).>> I understand what you mean, but to quote the original promoter of this idea (Neville) this should be a "NO NO"! The lug acts in bending, not tension. So, modifying in the manner proposed might not reduce tensile strength but could reduce bending strength. A chain is as strong as its weakest link and I suspect that these lugs come second to being the weakest part of the elevator system (first prize goes to the TP pins, although the usual mode of failure these pins is not catastrophic). There is a geometry of modification that would not compromise bending strength, but I'll not describe that because this would make me complicit to illegal modification to the control system! Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- From: "M@nsfield" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Pitch Torque Tube > --> Europa-List message posted by: "M@nsfield" > > Hi David, > > A handy tip from Neville is to file a profile in the outer pairs of welded > lugs (where the pitch push rods attach) so there is more rotational movement > before the lugs touch the edge of the CS05 aileron torque tube (where it > sits flush with the CS08 crank). > > Don't remove so much as to leave less metal at the side than there is around > the hole - i.e. leave as much metal at the side as there is at the top of > the lug (hard to describe, but I guess you'll understand). > > I'll see if I can get a picture of this, but my CM is installed so it might > be a bit cluttered in there... > > HTH > > PaulM > XS 383 > CM in, TP in, off to the front for LG frame. > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "David Simenauer" > > I am about to mount the pitch torque tube to the cockpit module. I have > the CS09 brackets clamped in position now. My question is about the amount > of movement I should have. With it in the position I have it now, the pitch > push rods move about 2.25 inches, 55 mm, forward and back. Is this enough? > I have looked, but can't find mention of this in the manual. > > Thanks, > Dave Simenauer > > > Book yourself something to look forward to in 2005. > Cheap flights - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/travel/flights/ > Bargain holidays - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/travel/holidays/ > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:06:20 AM PST US From: "Duncan McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Pitch Torque Tube --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" <<> Don't remove so much as to leave less metal at the side than there is around > the hole - i.e. leave as much metal at the side as there is at the top of > the lug (hard to describe, but I guess you'll understand).>> I understand what you mean, but to quote the original promoter of this idea (Neville) this should be a "NO NO"! The lug acts in bending, not tension. So, modifying in the manner proposed could reduce bending strength. A chain is as strong as its weakest link and I suspect that these lugs come second to being the weakest part of the elevator system (first prize goes to the TP pins).. There is a geometry of modification that would not compromise bending strength, but I'll not describe that because this would make me complicit to illegal modification to the control system! Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- From: "M@nsfield" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Pitch Torque Tube > --> Europa-List message posted by: "M@nsfield" > > Hi David, > > A handy tip from Neville is to file a profile in the outer pairs of welded > lugs (where the pitch push rods attach) so there is more rotational movement > before the lugs touch the edge of the CS05 aileron torque tube (where it > sits flush with the CS08 crank). > > Don't remove so much as to leave less metal at the side than there is around > the hole - i.e. leave as much metal at the side as there is at the top of > the lug (hard to describe, but I guess you'll understand). > > I'll see if I can get a picture of this, but my CM is installed so it might > be a bit cluttered in there... > > HTH > > PaulM > XS 383 > CM in, TP in, off to the front for LG frame. > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "David Simenauer" > > I am about to mount the pitch torque tube to the cockpit module. I have > the CS09 brackets clamped in position now. My question is about the amount > of movement I should have. With it in the position I have it now, the pitch > push rods move about 2.25 inches, 55 mm, forward and back. Is this enough? > I have looked, but can't find mention of this in the manual. > > Thanks, > Dave Simenauer > > > Book yourself something to look forward to in 2005. > Cheap flights - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/travel/flights/ > Bargain holidays - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/travel/holidays/ > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:20:03 AM PST US From: "Fred Fillinger" Subject: Re: Europa-List: IFR redundancy, was 2nd battery --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" >> For IFR, and an EFIS w/o mechanical redundancy, I have an >> opinion some may not want to hear! > > Ok, I'll take the bait. I would have the Truetracks pictorial pilot addon > on the autopilot or a 2nd efis and we were allready agreeing on the 2nd > battery generator eh? > > Regards, > Jos Okhuijsen Ducking the opinion part, interestingly for a production aircraft in the U.S., it ain't that easy, even if FAA-approved electronic boxes. There's an Advisory Circular which says you prove the failure probability, with specified statistical math to use, of a fatality in IFR caused by dual/complete failure. Or...slap a mechanical horizon gyro somewhere on that pretty panel, and refer to the section on the much simpler math. When I read something like that, I envision that error MsgBox... "Windows...is shutting down." :-) I don't even think the airframe mfrs mind this at all, because in a product liability suit, having a mechanical, redundant backup is the clearest way to explain total failure odds to a jury who knows that all electronic things go blooey sometimes even on second use, but their KitchenAid mixer of 20 years still works just fine. Reg, Fred F. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:33:26 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: IFR redundancy, was 2nd battery From: "Jos Okhuijsen" --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jos Okhuijsen" > Ducking the opinion part, interestingly for a production aircraft in > the U.S., it ain't that easy, even if FAA-approved electronic boxes. > There's an Advisory Circular which says you prove the failure > probability, with specified statistical math to use, of a fatality in > IFR caused by dual/complete failure. Or...slap a mechanical horizon > gyro somewhere on that pretty panel, and refer to the section on the > much simpler math. When I read something like that, I envision that > error MsgBox... "Windows...is shutting down." :-) For us, experimental builders this does not apply, and as a matter of fact, here an experimental will never be approved for IFR. Solves the problem for the authorities. But in real life VFR conditions change into IFR despite law, regulations, approvals and forecasts. There our non-approved but reasonably reliably EFIS comes into play. And before Jeremy starts to complain about windows bashing: It is only because windows in the most used operating system that it has the most crashes. But it is true, that although modern electronics hardware is a factor 10.000 more reliable then mechanical parts, systems seem unreliable in the eyes of the public, because their computers keep crashing and having virusses. Thinking about it: in cars almost everything is controlled by computers, from your safety-bags to brakes, gearbox and engine. But car manufacturers don't even advertise that. Is that also a windows syndrome? Back to the habit of building a reliably experimental: I guess that having 2 generators with 2 regulators and 2 batteries, and an essential bus switcheable between them is not a bad idea. It is not really redundant either, because the Rotax standard generator is a bit on the small side to feed all the whistles and bells. Regards, Jos Okhuijsen ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:05:44 PM PST US Subject: RE: Europa-List: IFR redundancy, was 2nd battery From: "Tony Krzyzewski" Received-SPF: none --> Europa-List message posted by: "Tony Krzyzewski" >> Back to the habit of building a reliably experimental: I guess that having 2 generators with 2 regulators and 2 batteries, and an essential bus switcheable between them is not a bad idea. It is not really redundant either, because the Rotax standard generator is a bit on the small side to feed all the whistles and bells. That's how I've built mine to support a 914 installation. Other than the boost pump the secondary system only runs 'luxury' items like the strobe and nav lights and a few electronic incidental items. Tony ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:16:31 PM PST US From: "Steven Pitt" Subject: Europa-List: Flap drive and GE12E bearing --> Europa-List message posted by: "Steven Pitt" Dear All Has anyone had a problem with rigging their aircraft and the GE12E bearing? I have been getting ready for final assembly and found that 1) my bearings have seized and 2) without the flaps the wings plug in easily, with the flaps it is a pig. Have I done something wrong or is there a fix that others have come up with. Thanks in anticipation. Steve Pitt #403 Tri gear XS ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:26:49 PM PST US From: N55XS Subject: Re: Europa-List: Flap drive and GE12E bearing --> Europa-List message posted by: N55XS Steven Pitt wrote: >--> Europa-List message posted by: "Steven Pitt" > >Dear All >Has anyone had a problem with rigging their aircraft and the GE12E bearing? >I have been getting ready for final assembly and found that 1) my bearings have seized and 2) without the flaps the wings plug in easily, with the flaps it is a pig. >Have I done something wrong or is there a fix that others have come up with. >Thanks in anticipation. >Steve Pitt #403 Tri gear XS > > > Steve, Your bearings are probably just stuck. Mine were the same way. I sprayed a little oil on them and inserted a bar and wiggled them around, until they loosened up. Just don't get to agressive with the "wiggling"... -- Jeff - A055 Finishing the panel and waiting on the painter... Builders Log: http://www.N55XS.com -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:30:30 PM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Flap drive and GE12E bearing --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" Hi! Steve. Make sure the Rose Bearings in the flap drive tube ends are well oiled and that the centre bearings are free and central to receive the drive pin on the flaps every time prior to pushing the wing home. (Also make sure the drive pins are well greased.) When the wing is removed at the point of departure from the bearing they will be slightly out of line making the bearing stick in to the stressed position and you are trying to drive the two together whilst this out of alignment is present. I have made some tapered guide tubes within the flap inboard closeouts which facilitate self rigging but I still have to ensure the bearings are central and loose. Regards Bob Harrison.G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steven Pitt Subject: Europa-List: Flap drive and GE12E bearing --> Europa-List message posted by: "Steven Pitt" Dear All Has anyone had a problem with rigging their aircraft and the GE12E bearing? I have been getting ready for final assembly and found that 1) my bearings have seized and 2) without the flaps the wings plug in easily, with the flaps it is a pig. Have I done something wrong or is there a fix that others have come up with. Thanks in anticipation. Steve Pitt #403 Tri gear XS ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:58:31 PM PST US From: "Kingsley Hurst" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Flap drive and GE12E bearing --> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" > I have been getting ready for final assembly and found that 1) my bearings have seized and 2) without the flaps the wings plug in easily, with the flaps it is a pig. Steve, Further to what Bob and Jeff have already said and assuming you have heeded those directions, if you definitely have correct alignment, you have described the same problem as one I experience on a particular sailplane almost every time it is rigged. At the point when the flap pin has just caught causing your problem, try giving the flap a firm and fast jiggle of small amplitude while someone is still applying pressure at the end of the wing to push it home. Hope it helps. Regards Kingsley ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:37:21 PM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Flap drive and GE12E bearing --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" Steve, I have exactly this problem when I rig my aircraft. I find that when I go to put the flap pin in that the ball can easily be knocked to one side and it jams in place. What I am thinking of doing is to make some flap drive pins that are much longer with a long tapered lead in. I'd be interested in anyone's opinion on this idea. Paul ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:30:15 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Europa-List: Flap drive and GE12E bearing --> Europa-List message posted by: I had a machinist turn new flap pins with a tapered lead-in. They work fine without the usual mentioned problems. The taper is about 3/4 inches beyond the standard length. They are in the flap tube and cause on problem. Ken Carpenter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Flap drive and GE12E bearing > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" > > > Steve, > > I have exactly this problem when I rig my aircraft. I find that when I go > to put the flap pin in that the ball can easily be knocked to one side and > it jams in place. > > What I am thinking of doing is to make some flap drive pins that are much > longer with a long tapered lead in. I'd be interested in anyone's opinion > on this idea. > > Paul > > >