---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 02/05/05: 20 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:37 AM - Re: C/S propellers (Duncan McFadyean) 2. 07:28 AM - Re: DC Headsets (Alan Burrows) 3. 07:45 AM - RC Allen electric gyros (John & Paddy Wigney) 4. 07:46 AM - Re: Europa 2004 (Jim Butcher) 5. 07:52 AM - Tailplane Fitting (Jim Butcher) 6. 08:03 AM - Re: Europa 2004 (DJGeldermann) 7. 08:05 AM - Re: Tailplane Fitting (Paul McAllister) 8. 08:17 AM - Re: IFR redundancy, was 2nd battery (Jos Okhuijsen) 9. 09:24 AM - Europa 2004 - great service!! (Pete Lawless) 10. 09:42 AM - Re: IFR redundancy, was 2nd battery (Paul McAllister) 11. 10:39 AM - Re: Europa 2004 (John & Amy Eckel) 12. 10:49 AM - Re: Tailplane Fitting (John & Amy Eckel) 13. 10:50 AM - Re: Last Words on Tailplane Mass balance!! (DvdPar@aol.com) 14. 11:48 AM - Re: Tailplane Fitting (Paul McAllister) 15. 02:24 PM - Re: Flap drive and GE12E bearing (JR (Bob) Gowing) 16. 04:31 PM - Re: IFR redundancy, was 2nd battery (josok) 17. 04:34 PM - Re: IFR redundancy, was 2nd battery (N55XS) 18. 05:27 PM - Re: Europa-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 02/04/05 (Graham Singleton) 19. 08:25 PM - Aileron bellcrank install direction (Andrew Sarangan) 20. 09:23 PM - Re: Aileron bellcrank install direction (Cliff Shaw) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:37:05 AM PST US From: "Duncan McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: C/S propellers --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" Fred, A search of the archives should bring up the relevant experience (next to none) and the Factory comments on the Ivoprop (which weren't complimentary). Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred R. Klein" Subject: Europa-List: C/S propellers > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred R. Klein" > > Hi All, > > Is there anyone out there who either: > > - is flying with an IVOPROP? > > - has purchased one? or > > - has considered selecting it and decided against doing so?.. > > and would be willing to share their thoughts? > > Fred > A194 > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:28:42 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: DC Headsets From: "Alan Burrows" --> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Burrows" Hi trev No problem getting some more headsets, but your friend will have to wait until april as we are just leaving to return to U.K. today (in about a hour). I can get my friend over here to order them and I will bring them back with me next trip if thats ok? I am fairly loaded down this trip with auto pilots, altitude holds, manifold guages etc. for some of the other builders. Give me a call about Wed or Thurs next week to let me know if he wants them and I will see what I can do. I seem to be suppying the Europa community with all kinds of avionics these days. I think my next holiday should be to Taiwan so I can get into the watch business :-) Its all good fun. cheers Alan > > Hi Alan, > > Was down RD Aviation today dropping my aircraft in and I took my headsets > with me to try them with the Intercom. Everything was fine and a friend > of > mine who was with me tried them and now wants a pair for his new Europa. > Any > chance? > > How was the States whilst you were there? I understand that Wilson > changed > all the locks on John's Hangar!!! > > kind regards > > > Trev > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:45:42 AM PST US From: John & Paddy Wigney Subject: Europa-List: RC Allen electric gyros --> Europa-List message posted by: John & Paddy Wigney Hi Fred, I endorse Gary Stout's observation on RC Allen reliability. My RC Allen electric gyro horizon caused me more trouble than anything else on the plane. I sent it back to the factory three times and it still did not work OK. However, my RC Allen electric DG has been trouble free. In the end, I replaced the gyro horizon with a Dynon EFIS D-10 which has worked out well after a few initial glitches. Cheers, John N262WF, mono XS, 912S <<<<<<<<<<<<<< <>Time: 05:19:48 AM PST US From: "Fred Fillinger" Subject: Re: Europa-List: IFR redundancy, was 2nd battery > "Jos Okhuijsen" wrote: > ... > But it is true, that although modern electronics hardware is a > factor 10.000 more reliable then mechanical parts, An instrument shop tells me that RC Allen electric gyros are very rugged, so say a lowball 1,000 hours MTBF is good. That means then an electronic gyro box by a little Mom & Pop company is assumed to be 10,000 hrs MTBF? They may be very good items to buy based on limited user feedback, but how could they establish such a MTBF, or assumed by us if Mom or Pop can't? Reg, Fred F. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:46:23 AM PST US From: "Jim Butcher" Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa 2004 --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jim Butcher" We also received some parts from E2004 from this container. The entire process went very smoothly. In our case, the freight forwarder arranged to have our package sent via FedEx with the charges put on our credit card. He also told me that he has shipped several items via Estes truck lines. Jim Butcher A185 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:52:06 AM PST US From: "Jim Butcher" Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane Fitting --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jim Butcher" Our stbd tailplane is difficult to fit. It goes on the torque tube OK but it difficult to get over the TP12 dirve pins. We refit the TP5 bushing which helped a little. At one point Andy suggested we check that the TP12 pins are parallel to the torque tube. Has anyone devised a good way of doing this? Thanks Jim & Heather Butcher A185 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:03:01 AM PST US From: "DJGeldermann" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa 2004 --> Europa-List message posted by: "DJGeldermann" Andrew, I'll just add to what John said. I just received my FWF kit for a 912S this past week. I had it shipped from Airship Management (Tom Adams, (252) 330-3010) in Elizabeth City, NC to my office address in Virginia a few miles west of Washington DC for $93 C.O.D. (the shipping company in my case, Estes Trucking, adds $48 to a bill just to deliver to a residence). My box weighed 83 lbs (it was written on the box), and as someone said it was about 4' x 3.5' x 27". I then took my mini-van to work the next day with the back seats out and brought it home without any trouble (my wife helped me carry it into the house). Everything that showed up looks to be in good condition, the only thing I'm looking for is a complete parts inventory list of what should be in the kit. I've emailed Europa with the question so I can do a proper inventory. If anyone knows where I can find it online though please let me know. Otherwise everything went smoothly. Dan Dan Geldermann A-139 ----- Original Message ----- From: "John & Amy Eckel" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa 2004 > --> Europa-List message posted by: "John & Amy Eckel" > > Andrew, > You are partly right. I did not have to pay any duties of tariffs. > The container was shipped to Airship Management in Elizabeth > City, NC and I was responsible for picking it up of having it > shipped. > Another builder picked mine up for me and delivered it around > midnight in a major snowstorm. I was supposed to be with him > but I was suffering in sunny and warm San Diego. The rest of his > trip was a nightmare. He broke down on the NJ Turnpike about > 2 in the morning and could get no service from U-Haul. He finally > got it started and made it to a motel. The next day he was towed > to a U-Haul place and got another truck. This one also gave him > problems and completely died when he returned it to U-Haul. By > rights he should have no further problems during his build. > Guess where he will never rent another truck. > By the way...his initials are Ron Parigoris and his friend Wayne. > Hope they are still friends. > Hope I didn't scare you away from picking up your kit yourself. > > John, A230 > do not archive > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Andrew Sarangan" > To: > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa 2004 > > >> --> Europa-List message posted by: Andrew Sarangan >> >> I also ordered a FWF kit in the container coming in March. Can you tell >> me how the shipping logistics work? Last I heard you have to pay duties >> and tariffs and have to make your own arrangements to transport it from >> the port of arrival. Is that true? >> >> >> --- John & Amy Eckel wrote: >> >>> --> Europa-List message posted by: "John & Amy Eckel" >>> >>> >>> Just to let you know that Europa 2004 is alive and well. >>> I ordered a FWF kit last year. My kit and others were >>> shipped over the holidays and I now have mine sitting in >>> my shop. The team at Europa did a fine job of getting the >>> order together. Andy said there is another container shipping >>> in March, so if you need anything this might be a good time to >>> order. >>> >>> John Eckel, A230 >>> Mounting the landing gear >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> ===== >> Andrew Sarangan >> http://www.geocities.com/asarangan >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:05:34 AM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane Fitting --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" Jim, I got some .25" aluminum tube about 12" long from the hardware. I and slipped over the pin and "eyeballed" it. My pins were definitely bent and I had a couple of goes at getting the parallel to the torque tube. This exercise improved things a lot, but I still find one side a little tight. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Butcher" Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane Fitting > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jim Butcher" > > Our stbd tailplane is difficult to fit. It goes on the torque tube OK > but > it difficult to get over the TP12 dirve pins. We refit the TP5 bushing > which helped a little. At one point Andy suggested we check that the TP12 > pins are parallel to the torque tube. Has anyone devised a good way of > doing this? > > Thanks > > Jim & Heather Butcher A185 > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:17:19 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: IFR redundancy, was 2nd battery From: "Jos Okhuijsen" --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jos Okhuijsen" Nice, back to MTBF again :-) Reminds me of the one of the first discussions i had on this forum, even before i was a builder. Business: MTBF (mean time between failure) is a theoretical, calculated figure. To keep it simple, it's not too far off to call it the total of all the parts MTBF's Every part used in electronics, has a more or less public MTBF. For a normal 5 cents diode it could be something like 10 million years... Of course this is if it is used within specs. Lighning EMR is not in spec :-) The point however was and is, that alhough i spent a good part of my life repairing electronics, and another good part in preventing electronics from needing repair, i am still convinced that electronics are way more reliable then steam or vacuum engines:-) Regards, Jos Okhuijsen -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:24:17 AM PST US From: "Pete Lawless" Subject: Europa-List: Europa 2004 - great service!! --> Europa-List message posted by: "Pete Lawless" Evening All Well Europa is back to the good old days of enthusiasm and action. I discovered a new throttle cable was required, due to some over enthusiastic tightening of the bolt attaching the cables to the throttle lever one of the originals had developed a kink. I called Europa Friday afternoon about 1615, the cable was delivered this morning, Saturday, by 0900! Now that is good service by anyone's standards. It is great to have them back as they used to be. Regards Pete Lawless G-RMAC Classic Mono -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:42:33 AM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: Re: Europa-List: IFR redundancy, was 2nd battery --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" Hi all, I spent the first 20 years of my working life in electronic engineering and I also had a some distain for mechanical things. With that said my panel has a standard 6 pack and expect for the Navaids they are TSO'd instruments. This only came about from reasons of practicallity, I was offered a set of new instruments from an abandoned projact for $1000.00, too good to pass up. With all that said I had allways intended to upgrade to an EFIS some time in the future, but now I am not so sure. After getting a whack on the wing tip by lightning it sure has changed my opinion about mechanical devices. A lot of stuff went south including the Navaids and I doubt if any level of protection could enusre that an EFIS would survive with 100% certainty. One thing I sure would have missed during that adventure would have been an ASI. I am now wondering where to head with all electric / electronic panels after this experience. Paul ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:39:21 AM PST US From: "John & Amy Eckel" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa 2004 --> Europa-List message posted by: "John & Amy Eckel" Dan, I had an envelope in my box with the installation manual and as I recall the parts list was in one of the smaller boxes. John, A230 do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "DJGeldermann" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa 2004 > --> Europa-List message posted by: "DJGeldermann" > > Andrew, > I'll just add to what John said. I just received my FWF kit for a 912S > this > past week. I had it shipped from Airship Management (Tom Adams, (252) > 330-3010) in Elizabeth City, NC to my office address in Virginia a few > miles > west of Washington DC for $93 C.O.D. (the shipping company in my case, > Estes > Trucking, adds $48 to a bill just to deliver to a residence). My box > weighed 83 lbs (it was written on the box), and as someone said it was > about > 4' x 3.5' x 27". I then took my mini-van to work the next day with the > back > seats out and brought it home without any trouble (my wife helped me carry > it into the house). Everything that showed up looks to be in good > condition, the only thing I'm looking for is a complete parts inventory > list > of what should be in the kit. I've emailed Europa with the question so I > can do a proper inventory. If anyone knows where I can find it online > though please let me know. Otherwise everything went smoothly. > Dan > > Dan Geldermann > A-139 > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John & Amy Eckel" > To: > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa 2004 > > >> --> Europa-List message posted by: "John & Amy Eckel" >> >> >> Andrew, >> You are partly right. I did not have to pay any duties of tariffs. >> The container was shipped to Airship Management in Elizabeth >> City, NC and I was responsible for picking it up of having it >> shipped. >> Another builder picked mine up for me and delivered it around >> midnight in a major snowstorm. I was supposed to be with him >> but I was suffering in sunny and warm San Diego. The rest of his >> trip was a nightmare. He broke down on the NJ Turnpike about >> 2 in the morning and could get no service from U-Haul. He finally >> got it started and made it to a motel. The next day he was towed >> to a U-Haul place and got another truck. This one also gave him >> problems and completely died when he returned it to U-Haul. By >> rights he should have no further problems during his build. >> Guess where he will never rent another truck. >> By the way...his initials are Ron Parigoris and his friend Wayne. >> Hope they are still friends. >> Hope I didn't scare you away from picking up your kit yourself. >> >> John, A230 >> do not archive >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Andrew Sarangan" >> To: >> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa 2004 >> >> >>> --> Europa-List message posted by: Andrew Sarangan >>> >>> I also ordered a FWF kit in the container coming in March. Can you tell >>> me how the shipping logistics work? Last I heard you have to pay duties >>> and tariffs and have to make your own arrangements to transport it from >>> the port of arrival. Is that true? >>> >>> >>> --- John & Amy Eckel wrote: >>> >>>> --> Europa-List message posted by: "John & Amy Eckel" >>>> >>>> >>>> Just to let you know that Europa 2004 is alive and well. >>>> I ordered a FWF kit last year. My kit and others were >>>> shipped over the holidays and I now have mine sitting in >>>> my shop. The team at Europa did a fine job of getting the >>>> order together. Andy said there is another container shipping >>>> in March, so if you need anything this might be a good time to >>>> order. >>>> >>>> John Eckel, A230 >>>> Mounting the landing gear >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> ===== >>> Andrew Sarangan >>> http://www.geocities.com/asarangan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:49:14 AM PST US From: "John & Amy Eckel" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane Fitting --> Europa-List message posted by: "John & Amy Eckel" Once the bushing are in place per page 5-3 of the manual any realignment of the TP12 drive pins could make the situation worse because the TP13 bushings were bonded in place referenced to the TP12 drive pins. It seems to me that after making the TP12 drive pins parallel to the torque tube the bushing may have to be reset. FWIW John, A230 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane Fitting > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" > > > Jim, > > I got some .25" aluminum tube about 12" long from the hardware. I and > slipped over the pin and "eyeballed" it. My pins were definitely bent and > I > had a couple of goes at getting the parallel to the torque tube. > > This exercise improved things a lot, but I still find one side a little > tight. > > Paul > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Butcher" > To: > Subject: Europa-List: Tailplane Fitting > > >> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jim Butcher" >> >> Our stbd tailplane is difficult to fit. It goes on the torque tube OK >> but >> it difficult to get over the TP12 dirve pins. We refit the TP5 bushing >> which helped a little. At one point Andy suggested we check that the >> TP12 >> pins are parallel to the torque tube. Has anyone devised a good way of >> doing this? >> >> Thanks >> >> Jim & Heather Butcher A185 >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:50:21 AM PST US From: DvdPar@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Last Words on Tailplane Mass balance!! --> Europa-List message posted by: DvdPar@aol.com Regarding the ballance weight for the horizontal tail plane. Is it realy critical that perfect ballance must be obtained. The trim system should take care of any pith up/down tendancy. Is the ballance weights job also there to prevent flutter. Comments please. Regards Dave Park Bld.371 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:48:13 AM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Tailplane Fitting --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" Yes I forgot to mention this. I rebonded in the bushings after. Paul > Once the bushing are in place per page 5-3 of the manual any > realignment of the TP12 drive pins could make the situation worse > because the TP13 bushings were bonded in place referenced to > the TP12 drive pins. It seems to me that after making the TP12 > drive pins parallel to the torque tube the bushing may have to be reset. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:24:13 PM PST US From: "JR (Bob) Gowing" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Flap drive and GE12E bearing --> Europa-List message posted by: "JR (Bob) Gowing" As long as the bearing is fully into the the seat to prevent it moving too far out of line, the next job is to see that the flap pin mates with the the torque tube containing the bearing. One of my Aussie friends has closed the ends of his flaps and made holes to just take the ends of his flap torque tube to ensure that mating is controlled. This would be similar to making tapered guides. J R (Bob) Gowing, UK Kit 327 in Oz ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Europa-List: Flap drive and GE12E bearing > --> Europa-List message posted by: > > Hi all. > > I had exactly the same problem when rigging my stbd wing. Port one went home > without a hitch. (Still in the build process though - further rigging > problems at "hold"). On the forum some time ago a member mentioned he had > made a pointed extension out of Redux (Araldite 420)/flox to the end of the > flap drive pin - which ended his problem. Going to try this when time comes. > > Cheers, > Hans. #334 in Norway. hansjd@online.no snipped ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:31:26 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: RE: IFR redundancy, was 2nd battery From: "josok" 2.60 REPLY_TO_EMPTY Reply-To: is empty --> Europa-List message posted by: "josok" You were lucky, very lucky. There are probably not very much survivers of a lightning hit like you had. In most cases the wings would explode, the controls be point-welded stuck, you only lost some electronics, amazing, and again nice to still have in this world. Sailplane pilots here wear parachutes, probably because the best thermals are close to thunderstorms? Anyhow, i think that during the build we could try to eliminate both lightning and ERM sensivity. Conductors from one wingtip to the other could be avoided by adding surpressor coils i suppose? Anybody with some specialisation in that direction? Erm pickup can be prevented by shielding and surpressing ferrites, like you often see on computer connection wires, for the very same purpose. Also preventing coils like loops in wires helps. I once saw a very nice panel, where every wire going to and coming from was left extra long nicely coiled in a perfect erm pickup arrangement. Looks great but any lightning miles away will induce nice voltages over them and destroy any connected electronics. And yep, we can't rely on just one single point of failure, so i will have on top of an efis a real compass, an altimeter and a VSI, ---------------- Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/ ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:34:14 PM PST US From: N55XS Subject: Re: Europa-List: IFR redundancy, was 2nd battery --> Europa-List message posted by: N55XS Paul McAllister wrote: >--> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" > >Hi all, > >I spent the first 20 years of my working life in electronic engineering and >I also had a some distain for mechanical things. With that said my panel has >a standard 6 pack and expect for the Navaids they are TSO'd instruments. >This only came about from reasons of practicallity, I was offered a set of >new instruments from an abandoned projact for $1000.00, too good to pass up. > >With all that said I had allways intended to upgrade to an EFIS some time in >the future, but now I am not so sure. After getting a whack on the wing tip >by lightning it sure has changed my opinion about mechanical devices. A lot >of stuff went south including the Navaids and I doubt if any level of >protection could enusre that an EFIS would survive with 100% certainty. > >One thing I sure would have missed during that adventure would have been an >ASI. I am now wondering where to head with all electric / electronic panels >after this experience. > >Paul > > > Paul, I can understand your reluctance to go all glass. I've taken a mixed approach. I just didn't want to go with a vacuum system, so I decided to go with the EFIS. As a backup to possible failure, I installed an ASI and ALT. With those and a compass, I'm confident that I could find my way home, in case of an emergency. The Garmin 296 adds a little more confidence. I really like that instrument... -- Jeff - A055 Builders Log: http://www.N55XS.com -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:27:14 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 02/04/05 --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton At 23:56 04/02/2005 -0800, you wrote: >"Fred R. Klein" >Is there anyone out there who either: > > - is flying with an IVOPROP? > > - has purchased one? or > > - has considered selecting it and decided against doing so?.. > >and would be willing to share their thoughts? > >Fred >A194 Fred They don't have a good reputation, several have thrown blades, at least one fatality I think. Engineering is not good imho. Graham -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:25:07 PM PST US From: Andrew Sarangan Subject: Europa-List: Aileron bellcrank install direction --> Europa-List message posted by: Andrew Sarangan The W13 aileron bellcrank has a long end and a short end. The manual does not explain which end connects to which push tube. Based on the holes placements in the ribs, I am thinking that the longer end should connect to the long ~6' push tube, and the shorter end should connect to the aileron tube. Any comments are appreciated. ===== Andrew Sarangan http://www.geocities.com/asarangan ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:23:46 PM PST US From: "Cliff Shaw" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Aileron bellcrank install direction --> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" Andrew As I recall that is exactly what I did. Looking at the drawing, it would look like that is what is intended too. The longer arm goes to the pushrod going to the wing root. Cliff Shaw 1041 Euclid ave. Edmonds, WA 98020 425 776 5555 http://www.europaowners.org/WileE Hot water heater works great. Had to close it down a bit the other day while making a test flight. Good !!!!! > > The W13 aileron bellcrank has a long end and a short end. The manual > does not explain which end connects to which push tube. Based on the > holes placements in the ribs, I am thinking that the longer end should > connect to the long ~6' push tube, and the shorter end should connect > to the aileron tube. Any comments are appreciated. > > > ===== > Andrew Sarangan