---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 03/03/05: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:15 AM - Re: 912S with the Classsic (Pete Lawless) 2. 03:20 AM - Fly (The London Air Show) (G-IANI) 3. 08:59 AM - Re: issues with Rotax 914 voltage regulator/rectifier? (josok) 4. 10:36 AM - Re: 912S with the Classsic (David Watts) 5. 10:55 AM - Re: Re: issues with Rotax 914 voltage regulator/rectifier? (Fred Fillinger) 6. 12:10 PM - Builder Feedback Requested for Kitplanes Magazine (Alternative Engines) (Cory Emberson) 7. 02:46 PM - Re: 912S with the Classsic (Pete Lawless) 8. 05:25 PM - Re: issues with Rotax 914 voltage regulator/rectifier? (Jan de Jong) 9. 05:50 PM - Re: 912S with the Classsic (Troy Maynor) 10. 06:02 PM - Re: 912S with the Classsic (Troy Maynor) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:15:00 AM PST US From: "Pete Lawless" Subject: RE: Europa-List: 912S with the Classsic --> Europa-List message posted by: "Pete Lawless" Dave - just how many hands have you got?? Pete Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Watts Subject: Re: Europa-List: 912S with the Classsic --> Europa-List message posted by: "David Watts" Troy, Having installed the 912S after a 1000hrs on the standard 912, I had no real problems with the new engine until the weather turned a bit colder. I tried a variety of the suggestions being put forward and have settled on leaving the choke in until the engine is spinning over, then pulling it out. This has completely solved all the kicking. A short while ago I incorporated an extra switch to issolate one mag whilst starting but that did not cure the kicking until I left the choke in again. However I am sure having both mags off while the engine spins, then bringing one mag in at a time would probably cure the problem and I intend to set up this arrangement shortly when I receive my Airmaster prop to replace the NSI CAP140 and have to rewire the panel anyway. Dave Watts G-BXDY >From: "Troy Maynor" > My questions are; will starting on one mag really help the anemic >starter? How many of you are running the 912S with the standard >starter and not having any problems starting? I really don't want to >use a bigger battery but I may have to go that route. I am still a >long way from actual testing but I need to get this panel wired. You >know how it goes, the bridge you build today needs to hold you up when >you eventually try to walk across it. > Can I get a few opinions on this to arrive at a consensus? Thanks to > this valuable forum. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:20:51 AM PST US From: "G-IANI" Subject: Europa-List: Fly (The London Air Show) --> Europa-List message posted by: "G-IANI" Europa(2004) will be at "Fly" which takes place on Friday to Sunday (8th to 10th April) at Earls Court. Opening hours are from 10.00 to 18.00 Friday and Saturday and 10.00 to 17.00 Sunday. This will be the first major show they have attended and will mark their return to the sale of full kits to new buyers. Due to the limited resources they have available the Europa Club has offered to assist with this sales drive by providing the display aircraft (you will remember G-KITZ has been sold) and helping to man the stand. This is a request for volunteers to help with manning the strand. We would like to provide two people for the period from 11.00 to 17.00 Friday and Saturday and from 11.00 to 16.00 Sunday. With the Europa staff present this should allow everyone time to talk to potential customers and have comfort breaks without feeling too overloaded. (Your other job will be to ensure that the "great unwashed" do not try to walk of with bits of my aircraft which will be on display). For anyone doing three hours or more you will receive a free VIP entry ticket. I have yet to discover what the "VIP" entitles you to. You will also get to meet other Europa builders!!! If you can help us out, please contact me direct. Please give the hours you would be prefer to work and your home address (needed as VIP tickets are sent out by the show organisers direct). I will then try and work out a timetable and contact all who have volunteered. Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear Europa Club Assistant Mods Rep Direct e-mail g-iani@ntlworld.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:59:44 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: RE: issues with Rotax 914 voltage regulator/rectifier? From: "josok" 2.60 REPLY_TO_EMPTY Reply-To: is empty --> Europa-List message posted by: "josok" Fred, are you sure it is a current limiter device? Usually these blocks just contain a voltage limiter, a big zener so to say. If it is a current limiter it will run cold on low loads and hot on high loads however, and that will change my ideas on wiring the system. Cu, Jos Okhuijsen ---------------- Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/ ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:36:03 AM PST US From: "David Watts" Subject: Re: Europa-List: 912S with the Classsic --> Europa-List message posted by: "David Watts" Pete I admit that the first time I started the engine this way it did feel like I was running out of hands. However I quickly realised that there was no need to touch the throttle in this process so it is just a case of throttle closed, turn key with second hand on the choke. Once it is turning over nicely, pull the choke and as soon as it fires, let go of the key and flick the switch that activates the second mag. Then move over to the throttle and everything else is as it used to be. Yes it is awkward but it does start nicely and it's a lot less awkward that changing the whole plane to an XS cowling configuration. Dave Watts G-BXDY >From: "Pete Lawless" > Dave - just how many hands have you got?? > From: "David Watts" > I tried a variety of the suggestions being put forward and have settled > on leaving the choke in until the engine is spinning over, then pulling > it out. This has completely solved all the kicking. > > A short while ago I incorporated an extra switch to issolate one mag > whilst starting but that did not cure the kicking until I left the choke > in again. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:55:16 AM PST US From: "Fred Fillinger" Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: issues with Rotax 914 voltage regulator/rectifier? --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" > Fred, are you sure it is a current limiter device? Usually these blocks just contain a voltage limiter, a big zener so to say. If it is a current limiter it will run cold on low loads and hot on high loads however, and that will change my ideas on wiring the system. > > Cu, > Jos Okhuijsen Oops, sorry, but I was referring to a poor connection acting as a current limiter. The "heavy lifting" in the regulator is done by a pair of (assumed; they're house-numbered) SCRs, where one of them shunts incoming AC to ground when output reaches 14V. Thus, the lesser the load, the hotter she should get. However, the circuit design appears such that high loads should also raise the temp of the SCR not doing the shunting during a half cycle (flip-flop style). But one nice thing about it is that it looks fail-safe if an SCR commits hara- kiri. To go into overvoltage, one of several low-current devices, like its reference Zener diode, would have to fail. In a more typical design using SCR(s), when one fails, it's automatic high voltage, but I believe it can run cooler for reduced chances of SCR failure. Reg, Fred F. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:10:49 PM PST US From: "Cory Emberson" Subject: Europa-List: Builder Feedback Requested for Kitplanes Magazine (Alternative Engines) --> Europa-List message posted by: "Cory Emberson" Hello everyone, I've subscribed (quietly) to this list for a little more than a year, and would like to hear from you if you're a builder who has successfully installed and flown an alternative engine in your plane. I'm writing a builder's roundup for Kitplanes magazine, and am looking for an installation that's flown for a minimum of 150 hours, and is currently flying. For the builders that we profile, the magazine will also be able to pay you $100 for the write-up. We would also need at least 2-3 good photos, including a close-up of the engine and an overall shot of the aircraft. Additional photos would be great, and all photos will be returned. If you have digital photos, it is very important that they be high-resolution, at least 300 dpi. I have a list of specific areas to address if you'd like to participate, but we can handle that off-line. Please feel free to contact me off-line at: cory @ lightspeededit.com (remove the spaces - my anti-spam protection) or reply offline to my list email address. I have a rather short deadline, so if you're able to contact me as soon as you're able, I would greatly appreciate it! Thank you so much! best, Cory Emberson ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:46:25 PM PST US From: "Pete Lawless" Subject: RE: Europa-List: 912S with the Classsic --> Europa-List message posted by: "Pete Lawless" Evening Dave My engine is into Conrad Beal tomorrow to have the sprag clutch sorted. I am a bit miffed about it, as it is only a 912ul with 120 hours on. Will try your method next week when the engine is reinstalled. Intend to look at the larger starter and see what is under the cover. I just wonder if the cover over the end can be cut away a little and reshaped to accommodate the engine mount on the classic. Regards Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Watts Subject: Re: Europa-List: 912S with the Classsic --> Europa-List message posted by: "David Watts" Pete I admit that the first time I started the engine this way it did feel like I was running out of hands. However I quickly realised that there was no need to touch the throttle in this process so it is just a case of throttle closed, turn key with second hand on the choke. Once it is turning over nicely, pull the choke and as soon as it fires, let go of the key and flick the switch that activates the second mag. Then move over to the throttle and everything else is as it used to be. Yes it is awkward but it does start nicely and it's a lot less awkward that changing the whole plane to an XS cowling configuration. Dave Watts G-BXDY >From: "Pete Lawless" > Dave - just how many hands have you got?? > From: "David Watts" > I tried a variety of the suggestions being put forward and have > settled on leaving the choke in until the engine is spinning over, > then pulling it out. This has completely solved all the kicking. > > A short while ago I incorporated an extra switch to issolate one mag > whilst starting but that did not cure the kicking until I left the > choke in again. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:25:03 PM PST US From: Jan de Jong Subject: Re: Europa-List: issues with Rotax 914 voltage regulator/rectifier? --> Europa-List message posted by: Jan de Jong Very interesting material on the subject (IMO) ... Gilles Thse and Jrme Delamare have tested the Rotax alternator and the Ducati Energia rectifier/regulator and written 3 articles (with another to follow but that hasn't appeared): http://foxpapa.com/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=138 The first article (alternator) shows: - listing of basic properties - no-load: output voltage (100Vp-p max.), harmonics composition, effective value as a function of rpm - impedance at various stator currents - short circuit: impedance and effective current as a function of rpm (21A max.) - short circuit temperature rise (30 degrees + 17 after stopping - considered ok) The second article (battery) shows: - battery Hawker SBS8, 7.4Ah - discussion of battery role - discharged at 5A for 45 minutes - 40 minutes of recharging at 14.3-14.4V, current starting at 17A The third article (rectifier/regulator) shows: - diode bridge rectified, no load - diode bridge rectified with capacitor, no load - with shunt regulating resistor at max rpm, no load - with shunt regulating transistor at max rpm, no load: dissipates 260W! - with series regulating resistor, worst load, at max rpm - with series regulating transistor, worst load, at max rpm: dissipates 220W! - controlled one polarity thyristor rectification, on-off; hard on the hardware - controlled one polarity thyristor rectification, each wave; this is how it works - (JdJ: and dissipates 80W apparently - see below) - load budget for various conditions The fourth article would likely have reported on the marginal thermal situation of the regulator. Gilles gave a short version on the aeroelectric forum: - regulator dissipates max. 80W, at 240W output - heatsink to sea level ambient air thermal resistance is 2 degrees C/W (measured) - junction to heatsink thermal resistance is 0.3 degrees C/W (estimated) - junction to sea level ambient air thermal resistance is 2.3 degrees C/W (the sum) - so 80W gives a 184 degrees C increase in junction temperature above ambient - 125 degrees C is a reasonable maximum for a semiconductor junction - (JdJ: the maximum I have seen on a datasheet was 175 degrees) - so marginal is hardly the term to use - but moving air helps a lot - with a PC-type fan the 2.3 number changes to 0.8 - so then 80W gives a 64 degrees C increase in junction temperature above ambient My conclusion: A solid state device is extremely reliable if its limits are not exceeded, so that is apparently what we do. Could we not mount the regulator next to the radiators somehow instead of on the firewall. That would guarantee moving air. Four meters of 10awg weigh 200g. The mounting should probably allow the capacitor to join. Can't think of further input. ? Jan de Jong 461, too slow, starting on the wings.. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:50:01 PM PST US From: "Troy Maynor" Subject: Re: Europa-List: 912S with the Classsic --> Europa-List message posted by: "Troy Maynor" Ron, Thanks. Sounds like a great idea. I will pull this out tomorrow and play with it with the ohmeter. Troy --> Europa-List message posted by: "Ron Jones" Hi Troy, I also have the Bendix type mag/starter switch on my panel but I have used the spare terminal on the back to isolate one mag during starting. The switch was, of course, originally made for the "older technology" engines using traditional mags but that spare terminal does the same job with the Rotax setup. Just make up a short lead (about 4" long) and use it to bridge one of the mag terminals to the spare. I forget which mag (A or B) is timed slightly later than the other but you can try either mag by just switching the leads at the connectors near the mags.>>>>>>>> ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:02:25 PM PST US From: "Troy Maynor" Subject: Re: Europa-List: 912S with the Classsic --> Europa-List message posted by: "Troy Maynor" Thanks Dave, Ron and John, It is good to have a wide range of opinions on this forum especially when you can incorperate all of them at once. I can short out one mag with the spare terminal on the switch, not pull the choke til engine is turning fast or maybe not have a problem at all. At least I don't have to change a bunch of stuff. Whew! Troy Maynor N120EU Europa Monowheel Classic Left to finish: Paint,interior,engine install, wiring. --> Europa-List message posted by: "David Watts" Troy, Having installed the 912S after a 1000hrs on the standard 912, I had no real problems with the new engine until the weather turned a bit colder. I tried a variety of the suggestions being put forward and have settled on leaving the choke in until the engine is spinning over, then pulling it out. This has completely solved all the kicking. A short while ago I incorporated an extra switch to issolate one mag whilst starting but that did not cure the kicking until I left the choke in again. However I am sure having both mags off while the engine spins, then bringing one mag in at a time would probably cure the problem and I intend to set up this arrangement shortly when I receive my Airmaster prop to replace the NSI CAP140 and have to rewire the panel anyway.