---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 04/12/05: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:12 AM - Re: Spark plug change intervals (Bill & Sue Sisley) 2. 02:55 AM - Finishing (DvdPar@aol.com) 3. 05:05 AM - Re: Finishing (Rick Audy) 4. 06:48 AM - Re: Finishing (Jeremy Davey) 5. 07:48 AM - Re: Finishing () 6. 08:27 AM - Aviation News (AVIATION GROUP) 7. 08:58 AM - Filling (DvdPar@aol.com) 8. 02:16 PM - Re: Finishing (Stephan Cassel) 9. 02:20 PM - Re: sat 23 april club trip (ACJARVIS1@aol.com) 10. 02:33 PM - Re: sat 23 april club trip (Jim Puglise) 11. 04:13 PM - FW: Electric trim problems. (R.C.Harrison) 12. 04:25 PM - Re: Electric trim problems. (Paul McAllister) 13. 04:44 PM - Re: Electric trim problems. (Cliff Shaw) 14. 05:35 PM - Re: Starter kick back.... (SPurpura@aol.com) 15. 05:38 PM - Re: Spark plug change intervals (SPurpura@aol.com) 16. 05:41 PM - Re: Finishing (SPurpura@aol.com) 17. 05:59 PM - Re: Finishing (Paul McAllister) 18. 11:31 PM - Re: Electric trim problems. (R.C.Harrison) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:12:41 AM PST US Received-SPF: none (dbmail-mx1.orcon.net.nz: domain of bill.sue@zip.co.nz does not designate permitted sender hosts) receiver=dbmail-mx1.orcon.net.nz; client-ip=60.234.97.41; envelope-from=; helo=billsue; From: "Bill & Sue Sisley" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Spark plug change intervals --> Europa-List message posted by: "Bill & Sue Sisley" I changed mine at 270hrs just because I had them out. Didn't really need to and it made no difference to performance. Sue and Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: Europa-List: Spark plug change intervals > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" > > Hi All, > > I have a Rotax 914T. I was wondering how long people typically keep there spark plugs before replacing them. > > Paul > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:55:07 AM PST US From: DvdPar@aol.com Subject: Europa-List: Finishing --> Europa-List message posted by: DvdPar@aol.com Just started filling and finishing the fuselage joint etc with expancell mixed as required in the manual. Seems to be taking a long time to harden, is this usual, how long have you had to wait before sanding. Humidity 40% Temp average 22 deg. Regards Dave Park ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:05:34 AM PST US From: "Rick Audy" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Finishing --> Europa-List message posted by: "Rick Audy" I sure hope that is Celsius (a reasonable temperature) and not farenheit. Rick --> Europa-List message posted by: DvdPar@aol.com >Just started filling and finishing the fuselage joint etc with expancell >mixed as required in the manual. Seems to be taking a long time to harden, >is this usual, how long have you had to wait before sanding. Humidity 40% >Temp average 22 deg. >Regards Dave Park ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:48:24 AM PST US From: "Jeremy Davey" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Finishing --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jeremy Davey" Or Kelvin! :-) Dave - the few bits I've done so far cured overnight to a sandable state - no different to Ampreg and glass, flox or micro. Cheers, Jeremy Jeremy Davey Europa Monowheel 537M G-EZZA Europa Club Vice-Chairman, Webmaster, PFA NC Representative PFA EC Member If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, then it is possible you haven't grasped the severity of the situation. Tail done Standard XS wings with mods underway CM installed in fuse (with airbrakes fittings) 1350 build hours to date Intended fit: Rotax 914 turbo, Airmaster CS fully-feathering prop Lots of lights, buttons, switches, gizmos, and alarms -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Audy Subject: RE: Europa-List: Finishing --> Europa-List message posted by: "Rick Audy" I sure hope that is Celsius (a reasonable temperature) and not farenheit. Rick --> Europa-List message posted by: DvdPar@aol.com >Just started filling and finishing the fuselage joint etc with expancell >mixed as required in the manual. Seems to be taking a long time to harden, >is this usual, how long have you had to wait before sanding. Humidity 40% >Temp average 22 deg. >Regards Dave Park ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:48:47 AM PST US From: Subject: RE: Europa-List: Finishing --> Europa-List message posted by: HI Dave I found that if I made the mix quite dry it sanded better. Also overnight was not good enough but waiting until the following day made the sanding much better. Tom Friedland -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DvdPar@aol.com Subject: Europa-List: Finishing --> Europa-List message posted by: DvdPar@aol.com Just started filling and finishing the fuselage joint etc with expancell mixed as required in the manual. Seems to be taking a long time to harden, is this usual, how long have you had to wait before sanding. Humidity 40% Temp average 22 deg. Regards Dave Park -- -- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:27:38 AM PST US From: AVIATION GROUP Subject: Europa-List: Aviation News aeroelectric-list@matronics.com, pietenpol-list@matronics.com --> Europa-List message posted by: AVIATION GROUP AVIATION News Group is to view & share your valuable comments and the latest trends and happenings in the aviation industry. Please click on the attached yahoo group link site to share & receive the updates on the latest happenings, business ventures, business opportunities, Air Shows and Exhibitions, New Aircraft releases, and certifications, Career news, Appointments etc. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AVIATION-NEWS/ Please take few moments recommend us to your near & dears in the industry. We welcome your valuable comments and updates. With best regards AVIATION NEWS. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AVIATION-NEWS/ --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:58:42 AM PST US From: DvdPar@aol.com Subject: Europa-List: Filling --> Europa-List message posted by: DvdPar@aol.com Thanks all, I think Ill just turn the temp up a bit ''C''! Dave Park ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:16:42 PM PST US From: "Stephan Cassel" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Finishing --> Europa-List message posted by: "Stephan Cassel" I have used SP System 106 epoxy and expancel. The result is perfect. Sandable next day. Much cheaper then Ampreg and SP System recommend it for this use. Use slow 106 hardener, standard is too fast. SP System has a primer called Hibuild. Gives an excellent surface. But you can also use it as a "pin-hole-killer" if you mix same expancel into it. One thin layer on the surface and the pin-hole is no more. Hibuild as a primer does not take care of the pin-holes. Regards Stephan #556 -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeremy Davey Subject: RE: Europa-List: Finishing --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jeremy Davey" Or Kelvin! :-) Dave - the few bits I've done so far cured overnight to a sandable state - no different to Ampreg and glass, flox or micro. Cheers, Jeremy Jeremy Davey Europa Monowheel 537M G-EZZA Europa Club Vice-Chairman, Webmaster, PFA NC Representative PFA EC Member If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, then it is possible you haven't grasped the severity of the situation. Tail done Standard XS wings with mods underway CM installed in fuse (with airbrakes fittings) 1350 build hours to date Intended fit: Rotax 914 turbo, Airmaster CS fully-feathering prop Lots of lights, buttons, switches, gizmos, and alarms -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Audy Subject: RE: Europa-List: Finishing --> Europa-List message posted by: "Rick Audy" I sure hope that is Celsius (a reasonable temperature) and not farenheit. Rick --> Europa-List message posted by: DvdPar@aol.com >Just started filling and finishing the fuselage joint etc with expancell >mixed as required in the manual. Seems to be taking a long time to harden, >is this usual, how long have you had to wait before sanding. Humidity 40% >Temp average 22 deg. >Regards Dave Park ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:20:52 PM PST US From: ACJARVIS1@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: sat 23 april club trip --> Europa-List message posted by: ACJARVIS1@aol.com hi Dave Thanks so much for the message about the le Touquet trip. I would have loved to come somehow but it's my parents' diamond wedding complete with message from the Queen so I will have to mis thiss one. Remember we are going for a flight one day though and I'll buy the fuel! On Friday ,long overdue, I'm bonding in the tail torque tube, with help from Roger Sheridan. he's a lovely chap. I got a bit bogged down building a jig but I'm glad I did as it all looks more organized now. In early March Viv and I went up to Yorkshire and called in at Europa of course. It was all uncannily the same . I bought a few bits and pieces and had a nice chat with Andy. I raised the subject of the glider version but the inevitable answer is they just dont have time or money to re start the testing needed ....I wonder if you've any thoughts as how one might re kindle club interest in the 'glider' . As you know I find it heart breaking that such performance potential is being neglected.... Anyway have a wonderful day, and thanks again for your help with the module! All the best, Andrew ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:33:10 PM PST US From: "Jim Puglise" Subject: RE: Europa-List: sat 23 april club trip --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jim Puglise" Andrew- I am going to Lakeland toward the end of the week for the express purpose of asking Andy about the glider. I have a glider wing kit, and both my wife and I are rated, but Bob B. tells me that there is (essentially) no manual and the build is a real bear. I would really like to see them get back into it. That is what differentiates the Eurpoa from all of the others out there. Had we known that the support for that version was going to be cut off, we probably would have bought a Jabiru. Again, had we known that they were having financial problems, we might have gone a different route too. Ain't hindsight great? Jim A 283, Punta Gorda, FL -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ACJARVIS1@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: sat 23 april club trip --> Europa-List message posted by: ACJARVIS1@aol.com hi Dave Thanks so much for the message about the le Touquet trip. I would have loved to come somehow but it's my parents' diamond wedding complete with message from the Queen so I will have to mis thiss one. Remember we are going for a flight one day though and I'll buy the fuel! On Friday ,long overdue, I'm bonding in the tail torque tube, with help from Roger Sheridan. he's a lovely chap. I got a bit bogged down building a jig but I'm glad I did as it all looks more organized now. In early March Viv and I went up to Yorkshire and called in at Europa of course. It was all uncannily the same . I bought a few bits and pieces and had a nice chat with Andy. I raised the subject of the glider version but the inevitable answer is they just dont have time or money to re start the testing needed ....I wonder if you've any thoughts as how one might re kindle club interest in the 'glider' . As you know I find it heart breaking that such performance potential is being neglected.... Anyway have a wonderful day, and thanks again for your help with the module! All the best, Andrew ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:13:57 PM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: FW: Europa-List: Electric trim problems. --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" Hi! Paul /all AS I said in my post below I tried to fault my trim switches/motor for about an hour to no avail. Took the a/c to do it's annual fight tests today everything fine during take off and all preliminary checks when I repeatedly operated the trim to full travel both directions and trying to operate both panel and stick top switches to confuse it but it worked totally satisfactorily. Later did all the stall tests and VNE dive etc. but on my return from getting to 30 miles nautical away from RAF Conningsby out over the sea(there was abnormal military activity from both there and Waddington to go any other direction) for the radio check I noticed the trim to be slightly nose up (I guess due to fuel having been used ) hey presto! the trim would not return to trim nose down yet again. For the next 15 minutes I kept the nose down trim button on the stick top pressed and it came back to life and once again worked faultlessly during landing de-rigging and stowage in the trailer. I will have to try the light across the motor connections as has been suggested but can any electronics wizards please advise if there is any possibility that the relay deck may be causing this intermittent problem? Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG EuropaMKI/Jabiru 3300 -----Original Message----- From: R.C.Harrison [mailto:ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk] Subject: RE: Europa-List: Electric trim problems. Hi! Paul I can confirm that I have a similar problem (or I'm hoping I HAD!) For some time I have had an intermittent similar problem. The trim will always go nose up no problem but should I go a LED bar too far it won't reverse until I take it full nose up (huge control stick forces) then it usually but sometimes only after about a minute will return. I suspected the servo motor which since my Kit No. is 337 I guess will be the old one. I had lots of written exchanges with the Ray Allen Co. resulting in my sending it back for check over since they had concluded that an "end or limiter switch wasn't allowing the reversing of the motor. I returned it to them unfortunately they had a bad day when they received it and didn't link my motor with my communications but checked it out and found no fault. I refitted it and when plugging my connectors at the panel back together I discovered an internally broken or badly crimped wire. I remade the wire connection and "hey presto". After two years it seemed sorted! However since then the problem has again returned and I have not been able to get it to repeat on demand. The last time I flew I did my pre-flight checks and I trimmed up a couple of LED bars and it wouldn't return, pulled off the ramp and sat operating both the control on the stick and the one on the panel. After about 10 minutes of multiple switching it came back to life. I flew my mission ensuring not to trim too far nose up, and on the return leg repeatedly trimmed nose up then nose down without problem. I have again checked all my connectors and stood for an hour trying to reproduce the problem to no avail. I'm wondering if it is the relay deck? If you manage to isolate your problem would you be good enough to let me know? Best regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" Hi all, I posted a similar message on the Aeroelectric board. I am having intermittent problems with my electric trim. Sometimes when I need to slow and trim the aircraft for landing the trim motor won't actuate. I initially suspected the down trim button, but once I had it not wanting to respond to an "UP" button press as well. I have wriggled wires, plugs and un plugged terminations and driven the servo to the end stops but I haven't been able to duplicate the problem on the ground. I am starting to suspect the servo and I am thinking it might be having trouble reversing direction with air loads. I'd be interested in anyone's ideas for trouble shooting. I have a 4 way trim switch with a Ray Allen relay deck driving an older MAC servo unit. One last question, can any one tell me the new part number for the servo unit. Thanks, Paul ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:25:52 PM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Electric trim problems. --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" Bob, Unfortunately everything in the chain is suspect, from the switch, connectors, crimps, relay deck, cabling to the servo, to the servo its self. A led would be a great trouble shooting aid, and its a matter of where do you want to put it in the chain of events to start breaking the problem down. In my case I am very suspicious of the crimps I have made on the relay deck wires as they are very fine. I have decided to buy one of Matt Dralle's speed controllers because it replaces the relay deck, and makes my trim motor speed adjustable. This solves my trim sensitivity problem and removes a suspect part out of the chain. I'll keep you posted. Paul ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:44:52 PM PST US From: "Cliff Shaw" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Electric trim problems. --> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" > I will have to try the light across the motor connections as has been > suggested but can any electronics wizards please advise if there is any > possibility that the relay deck may be causing this intermittent > problem? > Regards > Bob Harrison G-PTAG EuropaMKI/Jabiru 3300 > Bob I have been referred to as such from time to time (wizard) Relays are notorious for failures in the way you described. Some designs of relalys are better than others. It depends on there usage. In the trim motor usage, the current is quit low and the repetition rate of use is very low. This requires a dust covered relay with a wiping action on the points. I don't know what kind of relay you are using. The ones I used are of the type I described and have not failed (yet). I have a separate trim power switch, because the other problem that relays have is they stay conducting after you release the switch. (known as trim run-away) The problem you have been describing sound more like a broken wire in the control column. (but you have two sets of up-down switches) Happy hunting !!!!. Use the light bulb trick and then you will know which end of the plane the trouble is in. Cliff Shaw 1041 Euclid ave. Edmonds, WA 98020 425 776 5555 http://www.europaowners.org/WileE ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:35:36 PM PST US From: SPurpura@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Starter kick back.... --> Europa-List message posted by: SPurpura@aol.com I'M USING AN ODDESSY BATTERY ALSO,IT IS MUCH BETTER THAN THE CONCORD BATTERY EVER WAS.IT IS 2 YEARS OLD NOW AND AND IF IT SITS FOR 2 WEEKS THERE IS ABOUT A 1/2 TO 1 VOLT DROP AT THE BATTERY. A SOLAR CHARGER ON THE BATTERY ($10.00 FROM HARBOR FREIGHT)NOW MAINTAINS A FULL CHARGE AND HAS MADE STARTING MUCH EASIER. SAM N77EU XS MONOWHEEL 914 ROTAX ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:38:55 PM PST US From: SPurpura@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Spark plug change intervals --> Europa-List message posted by: SPurpura@aol.com LESS THAN 50 HRS USUALLY,DEPENDING ON HOW MUCH 100LL I USE. SAM N77EU ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:41:52 PM PST US From: SPurpura@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Finishing --> Europa-List message posted by: SPurpura@aol.com TRY SUPERFIL,ITS PREMIXED AND MORE CONSISTANT AND EASY TO USE,YOU WILL SAVE ALOT OF TIME LATER ON WHEN SANDING. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:59:45 PM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Finishing --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" Guys, I have to echo Sam's comments regarding Superfil. I started with Expancel and West Systems Epoxy and while it is cheap, the effort of mixing the stuff up and trying to get a good batch to batch consistency is just not worth it. I also got a bunch more pins holes with Expancel. The other problem I had was with moisture ingress. I had to repaint the side of my aircraft where I had used it due to moisture finding its way in and then finding its way back out again when it was baked after painting. I didn't have any such problems with Superfil. Yep, its more expensive, but in my experience it wasn't worth the effort. Just my 2 cents worth. Paul ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:31:00 PM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Electric trim problems. --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" Thanks Cliff/Paul I have the Menzimer purpose made relay deck. I don't think it is a wire again because when the problem is present it is on both the stick circuit (micro switch) AND the panel circuit (rocker switch and the LED display have also replaced by Ray Allen Company) As you say I must get a light into circuit(or two!) or even chance changing the damn relay because that may cause a probable wire fault to get thrown out! I don't have a problem with the speed of trim. Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG > I will have to try the light across the motor connections as has been > suggested but can any electronics wizards please advise if there is any > possibility that the relay deck may be causing this intermittent > problem? > Regards > Bob Harrison G-PTAG EuropaMKI/Jabiru 3300 > Bob I have been referred to as such from time to time (wizard) Relays are notorious for failures in the way you described. Some designs of relalys are better than others. It depends on there usage. In the trim motor usage, the current is quit low and the repetition rate of use is very low. This requires a dust covered relay with a wiping action on the points. I don't know what kind of relay you are using. The ones I used are of the type I described and have not failed (yet). I have a separate trim power switch, because the other problem that relays have is they stay conducting after you release the switch. (known as trim run-away) The problem you have been describing sound more like a broken wire in the control column. (but you have two sets of up-down switches) Happy hunting !!!!. Use the light bulb trick and then you will know which end of the plane the trouble is in. Cliff Shaw 1041 Euclid ave. Edmonds, WA 98020 425 776 5555 http://www.europaowners.org/WileE