Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:41 AM - Re: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB (Michael Grass)
2. 06:59 AM - Re: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB (Ken Stribling)
3. 12:49 PM - Re: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB (Peter Rees)
4. 12:49 PM - Re: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB (Peter Rees)
5. 12:56 PM - Re: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB (Peter Rees)
6. 03:03 PM - Re: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB (Jos Okhuijsen)
7. 04:13 PM - Re: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB (Duncan McFadyean)
8. 04:25 PM - Re: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB (Paul McAllister)
9. 04:58 PM - Re: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold (JR (Bob) Gowing)
10. 06:10 PM - Re: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold (Paul McAllister)
11. 10:10 PM - Re: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB (Ken Stribling)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Michael Grass" <M.Grass@comcast.net>
Peter,
I am defiantly interested in the PCB. Count me in as being interested.
Michael Grass
A266 Trigear
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Rees" <peter.rees05@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Europa-List: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Rees"
> <peter.rees05@ntlworld.com>
>
> If enough people are interested in the EZ-Trim (and if I'm not treading on
> anyones toes), I would be happy to approach some of the board suppliers I
> use at work to get some boards made (the ones you can make at home really
> aren't of a standard you should use on an aircraft.
>
> I might at a push even assemble a couple of units for those who are
> 'electronically challenged'
>
> If anyone is interested, drop me an E-mail - I guess we would need to
> order
> a minimum of 6 boards but the more we can order, the cheaper they'll be.
>
> Peter
>
>
>
Message 2
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Subject: | EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Ken Stribling" <ken@striblingranch.com>
Hi Pete: I would also like to be included But if you could buy the
components and put it in kit form that would be even better, You may
even get a better break say buying 10 at a time, I may be interested in
3 kits myself.
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Rees
Subject: Europa-List: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Rees"
<peter.rees05@ntlworld.com>
If enough people are interested in the EZ-Trim (and if I'm not treading
on
anyones toes), I would be happy to approach some of the board suppliers
I
use at work to get some boards made (the ones you can make at home
really
aren't of a standard you should use on an aircraft.
I might at a push even assemble a couple of units for those who are
'electronically challenged'
If anyone is interested, drop me an E-mail - I guess we would need to
order
a minimum of 6 boards but the more we can order, the cheaper they'll be.
Peter
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Rees" <peter.rees05@ntlworld.com>
Hi Michael
I've had a quick look at the pcb file and downloaded the design software.
The board looks pretty amateurish (and doesn't include the relays to switch
the trim motor) - I may re-lay the board myslef (using the software I use at
work) to give a much better quality of board - the current one doesn't have
a solder mask or ident - very necessary for those with little soldering
experience.
I'll get a price for the 'as is' board and tell people this and the revised
version (including the relays).
We seem to be there with the quantity so, I'll give my manufacturer a call.
Would you be after a bare board, kit or assembled unit?
Regards
Peter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Grass" <M.Grass@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Michael Grass" <M.Grass@comcast.net>
>
> Peter,
>
> I am defiantly interested in the PCB. Count me in as being interested.
>
> Michael Grass
> A266 Trigear
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter Rees" <peter.rees05@ntlworld.com>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Europa-List: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB
>
>
>> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Rees"
>> <peter.rees05@ntlworld.com>
>>
>> If enough people are interested in the EZ-Trim (and if I'm not treading
>> on
>> anyones toes), I would be happy to approach some of the board suppliers I
>> use at work to get some boards made (the ones you can make at home really
>> aren't of a standard you should use on an aircraft.
>>
>> I might at a push even assemble a couple of units for those who are
>> 'electronically challenged'
>>
>> If anyone is interested, drop me an E-mail - I guess we would need to
>> order
>> a minimum of 6 boards but the more we can order, the cheaper they'll be.
>>
>> Peter
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Rees" <peter.rees05@ntlworld.com>
Hi Bob
Still waiting to find out how many boards are going to be required and what
stage of build people would want them - bare board, kit or tested.
When I know, I'll be able to get a price from a low volume manufacturer -
off the top of my head, the bare board will be about 20 - though thats a
total (but reasonably educated guess) - main problem is that you need to
recover the tooling costs - photoplots.
The board from the original designer looks very crude (it has no solder mask
or ident) and doesn't accomondate the relays (which the europa needs to
switch the trim motor) - I may re-design the board and include the relays -
would you be intersted in this? Would you rather a built and tested unit?
Regards
Peter
----- Original Message -----
From: "JR (Bob) Gowing" <gowingjr@acr.net.au>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "JR (Bob) Gowing" <gowingjr@acr.net.au>
>
> Dear Peter
>
> I have only just picked up on this possibility and the idea seems
> fantastic.
> After flying gliders I am going to find it tedious to hold altitudes in
> power flying and, like the EIS's available we ought to be able to automate
> holding altitude.
>
> I am certainly interested in the idea but have not done electronic work
> myself.
>
> Approximately how much are boards likely to cost?
>
> J R (Bob) Gowing, UK Kit 327 in Australia and want to fit MOd 70 before
> bonding top on
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter Rees" <peter.rees05@ntlworld.com>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Europa-List: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB
>
>
>> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Rees"
> <peter.rees05@ntlworld.com>
>>
>> If enough people are interested in the EZ-Trim (and if I'm not treading
>> on
>> anyones toes), I would be happy to approach some of the board suppliers I
>> use at work to get some boards made (the ones you can make at home really
>> aren't of a standard you should use on an aircraft.
>>
>> I might at a push even assemble a couple of units for those who are
>> 'electronically challenged'
>>
>> If anyone is interested, drop me an E-mail - I guess we would need to
> order
>> a minimum of 6 boards but the more we can order, the cheaper they'll be.
>>
>> Peter
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Rees" <peter.rees05@ntlworld.com>
Hi Ken
I've had a quick look at the pcb file and downloaded the design software.
The board looks pretty amateurish (and doesn't include the relays to switch
the trim motor) - I may re-lay the board myslef (using the software I use at
work) to give a much better quality of board - the current one doesn't have
a solder mask or ident - very necessary for those with little soldering
experience.
I'll get a price for the 'as is' board and tell people this and the revised
version (including the relays).
We seem to be there with the quantity so, I'll give my manufacturer a call.
Would you be after a bare board, kit or assembled unit?
Regards
Peter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Stribling" <ken@striblingranch.com>
Subject: RE: Europa-List: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Ken Stribling"
> <ken@striblingranch.com>
>
> Hi Pete: I would also like to be included But if you could buy the
> components and put it in kit form that would be even better, You may
> even get a better break say buying 10 at a time, I may be interested in
> 3 kits myself.
>
> Ken
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Rees
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Europa-List: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB
>
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Rees"
> <peter.rees05@ntlworld.com>
>
> If enough people are interested in the EZ-Trim (and if I'm not treading
> on
> anyones toes), I would be happy to approach some of the board suppliers
> I
> use at work to get some boards made (the ones you can make at home
> really
> aren't of a standard you should use on an aircraft.
>
> I might at a push even assemble a couple of units for those who are
> 'electronically challenged'
>
> If anyone is interested, drop me an E-mail - I guess we would need to
> order
> a minimum of 6 boards but the more we can order, the cheaper they'll be.
>
> Peter
>
>
>
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Jos Okhuijsen" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>
Hi all,
Just to change the key of the song song and get some relativation. Hate to
do that, but i also feel kind of responsable if i did not say what i think
needs to be said. Apart from not liking the idea of "soldering iron
handicapped" fellow builders to work on flying controls with complications
they do not grasp, there are some facts to be considered.
On sun and fun i have been talking to almost every autopilot producer for
experimentals. Both digitrack and trio do a simple attitude hold. Both use
an extra servo. Both told me things i had not considered before. Both sell
for a price which is a multiple of the thing we are talking about here.
Why? Does the competition not work or?
Imho,
1: The ray allen trim motor is probably just good enough for trim. I
wonder if it has the reserves to fly the plane.
2: EZ-trim has had problems in the software, it is very difficult to get
the software working without hunting or undershooting. Once there is a
more or less stable situation, changes in the flying characteristics will
not readjust the adjusting cycles. That was the main reason the Dutch
abandoned the idea.
3: There is no insane command override other then the pilot. If, say
because somebody opens a vent, hence pressure increase, hence correction,
the plane ends up in a nose high attitude with 40 knots airspeed, it will
still try to pith up.
4: There is no cut out on turbulence, insane commands might follow.
Ok, let me have it <grin>
Jos Okhuijsen
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
<>
You asked for it.
But I agree.
In particular, the trim motor in the Europa works hard against the high
friction load in the anti servo tab drive system; I doubt that the trim
motor would have sufficient continuous-rating to keep up with that.
Try maintaining altitude by keeping throttle position fixed and "jabbing"
manually at the trim in proportion to the magnitude of indication on the
VSI; wouldn't work on mine (due mainly to delays introduced by loose
tolerances in the trim tab system).
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jos Okhuijsen" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jos Okhuijsen" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>
>
> Hi all,
> Just to change the key of the song song and get some relativation. Hate to
> do that, but i also feel kind of responsable if i did not say what i think
> needs to be said. Apart from not liking the idea of "soldering iron
> handicapped" fellow builders to work on flying controls with complications
> they do not grasp, there are some facts to be considered.
>
> On sun and fun i have been talking to almost every autopilot producer for
> experimentals. Both digitrack and trio do a simple attitude hold. Both use
> an extra servo. Both told me things i had not considered before. Both sell
> for a price which is a multiple of the thing we are talking about here.
> Why? Does the competition not work or?
> Imho,
> 1: The ray allen trim motor is probably just good enough for trim. I
> wonder if it has the reserves to fly the plane.
> 2: EZ-trim has had problems in the software, it is very difficult to get
> the software working without hunting or undershooting. Once there is a
> more or less stable situation, changes in the flying characteristics will
> not readjust the adjusting cycles. That was the main reason the Dutch
> abandoned the idea.
> 3: There is no insane command override other then the pilot. If, say
> because somebody opens a vent, hence pressure increase, hence correction,
> the plane ends up in a nose high attitude with 40 knots airspeed, it will
> still try to pith up.
> 4: There is no cut out on turbulence, insane commands might follow.
>
> Ok, let me have it <grin>
>
> Jos Okhuijsen
>
>
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister@qia.net>
Jos & all,
A have a friend who built the EZ Trim for his RV6. After many months of
trying to get it stabilized he gave up. He ultimately scraped all of the
code, reworked the PID algorithm and added a solid state gyro in as an
outer control loop. It took him nearly a year of tuning the PID factors in
the altitude sensor and gyro to get it to work properly.
It now works really well and I am fooling around with the code at the
moment. Quite frankly I am expecting 6 months of experimenting / tuning to
make it work in my Europa. I am more than willing to share once I have it
figured out, but it is not easily transportable because it is based on a PIC
16F876 (not a STAMP) and you need the ability to be able to burn your own
microprocessors.
Paul
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "JR (Bob) Gowing" <gowingjr@acr.net.au>
Steved
Exciting stuff, but I have not seen mentioned yet that part of the system .
the message about altitude changing must come from; is it the altimeter
(nothing electric there), the transponder encoder ? Is this an easy
connection?
J R (Bob) Gowing, UK Kit 327 Australia, top itching to get into place.
----- Original Message -----
From: "EuropaForum" <Post2Forum@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold
> --> Europa-List message posted by: EuropaForum <Post2Forum@comcast.net>
>
> The Links to the two Ez-Trim sites are on the EuropaOwners Links page:
> http://www.europaowners.org/links.php
> under vendors. I've add links that I found of interest over the years.
> If you have any links you would like to add, just click add link and
> fill in the boxes.
> The link will appear after I approve it, for reasons of spam control.
>
> Ordering the boards was easy. The lower the number the more they cost
> each.
> I think I ordered 20 and sold on the list at cost, They all were sold
> in an hour
> so if anyone is thinking of making an order they go fast.
>
> I looked at the design at http://www.cas-cozy.nl/efis/EZTrim.html I
> didn't like it and thought it was to expensive also.
> Someone on the list said they were no longer available, so It's a
> mute point anyway.
>
> I've add the Ez-trim Zip download file to EuropaOwners.
> http://www.europaowners.org/viewtopic.php?p=6023#6023
> it is also available on the Ez-trim page
> http://hometown.aol.com/ccady/eztrim.htm
>
> Having the files on the Owners page is just incase the Ez-trim home
> page goes away.
>
> Chat later,
> Steved
>
>
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister@qia.net>
Bob,
The system uses an MPX4115 pressure transducer which should be connected to
the static system.
----- Original Message -----
From: "JR (Bob) Gowing" <gowingjr@acr.net.au>
> Steved
>
> Exciting stuff, but I have not seen mentioned yet that part of the system
> .
> the message about altitude changing must come from; is it the altimeter
> (nothing electric there), the transponder encoder ? Is this an easy
> connection?
>
> J R (Bob) Gowing, UK Kit 327 Australia, top itching to get into place.
Message 11
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Subject: | EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Ken Stribling" <ken@striblingranch.com>
>>>
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Rees
Subject: Re: Europa-List: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Rees"
<peter.rees05@ntlworld.com>
[-] >>>
Hi Ken
I've had a quick look at the pcb file and downloaded the design
software.
The board looks pretty amateurish (and doesn't include the relays to
switch
the trim motor) - I may re-lay the board myslef (using the software I
use at
work) to give a much better quality of board - the current one doesn't
have
a solder mask or ident - very necessary for those with little soldering
experience.
I'll get a price for the 'as is' board and tell people this and the
revised
version (including the relays).
We seem to be there with the quantity so, I'll give my manufacturer a
call.
Would you be after a bare board, kit or assembled unit?
Regards
Peter
[-]
3 kits please
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